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(Topic ID: 136217)

Is Dutch Pinball's "Bride of Pinbot 2.0" a New Game?


By awarner

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 69 posts
  • 32 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by awarner
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Should Dutch Pinball's Bride of Pinbot 2.0 have it's own machine designation?”

  • Yes - It's a whole new game and plays nothing like the machinhe it is built on. 80 votes
    78%
  • No - It would just confuse everything if there were more than one "Bride of Pinbot" 22 votes
    22%

(102 votes)

There are 69 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 5 years ago

The owners of Bride of Pinbot 2.0 machines feel as though it is a whole different game than the Williams machine it is built from. The ruleset, graphics, and sound are completely different and we feel that it is not a MOD. MODs generally don't alter the gameplay of the game in a drastic way like this kit does. In general, MODs are personalization items like LEDs and such. I asked Robin to create a new machine designation for BOP 2.0 and he is hesitant because he feels it will confuse people when they look for Bride of Pinbot.

I would ask Pinside BOP 2.0 owners to delete any BOP reference in their collections so it would be clear. Another argument for the designation is the $2,000.00 kit price adds to the cost of the machine. Another reason that we would like to track it separately.

Please answer the poll with your opinion and if you feel like expressing why you voted as you did, we would all like to hear that as well.

#2 5 years ago

Removed from my collection. Waiting for the new listing.

#3 5 years ago

With the subtleties that exist within the Pro versions and Premium/LE versions of machines that get their own designation--I see no reason why BOP 2.0 would not get its own game designation as well. The differences from the original BOP and BOP 2.0 far exceed that seen in many of the machines that get their own designation based upon trim line, despite some added functionality and code.

#4 5 years ago

I wholeheartedly agree that BOP 2.0 deserves its own database entry. I liken it to Pinbot/Jackbot. The playfield layouts may be the same, but the two games are completely different.

-1
#5 5 years ago

Despite no longer owning a Bride and doubtful I would spend the $2K to upgrade/alter/modify the game, I can wholly understand the desire to designate it differently. I would make a couple of points though.

For one, the 2.0 modification retains the ability, through pinmame, to play the game with it's original ruleset, even displaying the scores in a manner similar to their alphanumeric origins. No changes have been made to the playfield - no added or removed ramps, autolaunch devices, etc. In this sense, despite having a new control board and display device, the playing surface itself is the same. In some ways this makes the game a bit like PinBot/JackBot wrapped up in one - same playfield, different rules/cpu/display.

I do see this as a modification, albeit an extensive one, but not a wholly new game, despite the wholly new ruleset. Nonetheless, because it plays using different rules, it alters the way a player approaches this game. Another way to look at it might be to use the Silver Bullet comparison. The game is Mata Hari with different art. If I walked up to the game and played it never having played Mata Hari I'd see that scores stacked up a certain way. However, when I walk up to Mata Hari it is the same game, same rules, but the changed art package makes it feel different. It's much less different from the standpoint of play, but I think the experience is wholly different both because of the art and the difference in play the HEP clearcoat makes in Silver Bullet.

It's a long way of saying that I understand the desire for a new designation, but think it ignores the fact that you still have a Bride of Pinbot (hiding behind a DMD) - this is a distinction I don't see as confusing and thus makes sense.

#6 5 years ago

This poll should be simple.

Either BOP 2.0 get's it's own designation or they need to go in and remove all the Prem/Pro separations. BOP 2.0 is much more a "different" game than Met Pre vs Met Pro, ST prem vs ST Pro, etc...

#7 5 years ago

If Tron LE and Tron Pro get separate entries then surely BOP and BOP 2.0 should do? Tron LE is slightly different.

BOP 2.0 is a completely and utterly a different game.

It deserves a separate entry more than any of the LE's.

#8 5 years ago

If premium/LEs get a separate entry, BoP 2.0 should absolutely receive one. It feels entirely like a new experience. Still needs an autoplunger, however.

#9 5 years ago

I've played 2.0 and can tell you its definitely a different game and feel. No doubt should have it's own entry.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

If TRON LE and Tron Pro get separate entries then surely BOP and BOP 2.0 should do? TRON LE is slightly different.
BOP 2.0 is a completely and utterly a different game.
It deserves a separate entry more than any of the LE's.

Tron and Tron LE were different production machines.

BOP 2.0 is awesome but it's still in the only BOP machine ever built: BOP. So....not sure it's the same situation. I could go either way...I don't care that much.

#11 5 years ago

I'd call BoP 2.0 a $2,000 mod...

#12 5 years ago

Is Cactus Canyon Continued a different entry from CC?

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from RyThom:

Is Cactus Canyon Continued a different entry from CC?

If not, it probably should be.

#14 5 years ago

BOP 2.0 is totally different. Now you shoot the left ramp and center ramp over and over... oh wait

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from RyThom:

Is Cactus Canyon Continued a different entry from CC?

No, but - BOP 2.0 is licensed by Williams...so, there is something "official" about it. I wonder if there's a way to add a BOP 2.0 "stamp" or something to the graphic if you have the game in your collection and have the 2.0 kit installed.

#16 5 years ago

Really need to separate out MM and MMr. They may look and play the same, but the hardware and most tech advice will be completely different.

#17 5 years ago

Thinking about this... there are no BOP 2.0s that aren't BOPs.... they all share BOP. So... it is a mod.

14
#18 5 years ago

I have hated splitting Pro/Premiums/Remakes and Gold editions from day one. But when it happened (and granted, we already had two entries for TAF and TAFG way back in 2003 when this site started as a Solid State Pinball Database) it was because we needed a way to differentiate "models" for your collection games, for location games, for game ratings, and of course archive details (e.g. number of spinners) etc.

What I have wanted to do for a long time is have one "main" entry per game. And then have a way of listing different "models" for a game. Then, when you rate a game, or when you add a game to your collection, or when you list games belonging to a location, you can specify which model.

The top 100 would then probably have one entry for a game, taking the average of all models. Clicking on a title would show you the ratings per "model".

All of this means some pretty big changes in code - and in a lot of places on the site. Not an easy task. Stil, I hope to do it someday soon.

As for BOP. With all the pro/premiums already in the database it doesn't seem like a huge offence to add it as a separate game entry. But eventually I might then also add it as a "model" under the main entry of the original BOP.

And some questions do arise for the archive entry. Who is the manufacturer? WMS or DP? I guess it should be DP, right?

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from robin:

Who is the manufacturer? WMS or DP? I guess it should be DP, right?

right....

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from robin:

I have hated splitting Pro/Premiums/Remakes and Gold editions from day one. But when it happened (and granted, we already had two entries for TAF and TAFG way back in 2003 when this site started as a Solid State Pinball Database) we needed a way to differentiate "models" for your collection games, for location games, for game ratings, and of course archive details (e.g. number of spinners) etc.
What I have wanted to do for a long time is have one "main" entry per game. And then have a way of listing different "models" for a game. Then, when you rate a game, or when you add a game to your collection, or when you list games belonging to a location, you can specify which model.
The top 100 would then probably have one entry for a game, taking the average of all models. Clicking on a title would show you the ratings per "model".
All of this means some pretty big changes in code - and in a lot of places on the site. Not an easy task. Stil, I hope to do it someday soon.
As for BOP. With all the pro/premiums already in the database it doesn't seem like a huge offence to add it as a separate game entry. But eventually I might then also add it as a "model" under the main entry of the original BOP.
And some questions do arise for the archive entry. Who is the manufacturer? WMS or DP? I guess it should be DP, right?

Bop 2.0 should be separate as it has totally different rules. Not sure why adams familly gold and lotr le are rated different as the gameplay is 100% the same. If the mmr come in 3 trim colors and there all rated the same as they should be.

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from wizard_mode:

I'd call BoP 2.0 a $2,000 mod...

Kind of like an LE version of a game over the Pro right? About the same price difference to. Maybe instead of 2.0 for BOP it should be BOPLE

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Not sure why adams familly gold and lotr le are rated different as the gameplay is 100% the same.

Not true on the TAF at least not 100% (trim and plastics colors aside). Fliptronics 1 vs. 2. No HV cutout on TAF when the coin door is open. -1 driver board on TAF and -3 on TAFG. Standard switches for flippers on TAF vs. optos on TAFG. Software was a bit different too. There are enough differences to warrant a separate entry.

#24 5 years ago

While I completely agree that BOP 2.0 is a different game, I think one of the biggest features that requires a differentiation is scoring. The score I get on a BOP 2.0 isn't a score I got playing BOP. It's harder to see how badly i'm playing when I'm not sure if the other scores are BOP or 2.0.

I see the same thing with The Addams Family Gold but to a lesser extent - the software wasn't 100% the same. With the new ROMs came new scoring methods/modes/features that changed the scoring of the game.

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from robin:

As for BOP. With all the pro/premiums already in the database it doesn't seem like a huge offence to add it as a separate game entry. But eventually I might then also add it as a "model" under the main entry of the original BOP.
And some questions do arise for the archive entry. Who is the manufacturer? WMS or DP? I guess it should be DP, right?

I wouldn't have started this "Controversy" if the gameplay was the same but this kit truly transforms the game into something new. I also think it should be a DP game with a release date of 2015 because the code was recently completed and now the entire game can be played.

Oh, and my flipper bats say DP on them!

#26 5 years ago

For sure it's a different game.

#27 5 years ago

Not sure why this is such a debate. It is only so that people can tell what machines you have. A 2.0 is a very different machine than 1.0. If you are looking for some tech help, you wouldn't ask someone with a 1.0 for help with your P-Roc board or LED display... seems like a no brainer.

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from Flake:

While I completely agree that BOP 2.0 is a different game, I think one of the biggest features that requires a differentiation is scoring. The score I get on a BOP 2.0 isn't a score I got playing BOP. It's harder to see how badly i'm playing when I'm not sure if the other scores are BOP or 2.0.

I haven't even thought of that. Yes, another reason for the need to differentiate.

Okay, you all convinced me that there is enough reason to warrant a new database entry. I'll go and add the game now...

#29 5 years ago

Here it is: https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/bride-of-pinbot-20

@awarner: could you go and edit all the game details? Reason I'm asking you specifically is because the system was not build to support multiple people editing the same game details at the same time

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Thinking about this... there are no BOP 2.0s that aren't BOPs.... they all share BOP. So... it is a mod.

It's NOT a mod, it's a new game with the same playfield. Another reference would be Gottlieb Gold Strike and Target Alpha. They both use the same playfield but score and award extra balls differently. Add in an electronic version called "Eldorado, City of Gold" and that is also not the same game. Now, Solar City, and Canada Dry are the same playfield (except art) as Target Alpha and they aren't the same entry. So we can blame Gottlieb for using the same playfield 5 times and changing the rules at least 3 times as a precedent.

#31 5 years ago
Quoted from robin:

Here it is: https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/bride-of-pinbot-20
@awarner: could you go and edit all the game details? Reason I'm asking you specifically is because the system was not build to support multiple people editing the same game details at the same time

Thank you Robin! I'd be glad to update it! Really appreciate ya!

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from robin:

Here it is: https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/bride-of-pinbot-20
@awarner: could you go and edit all the game details? Reason I'm asking you specifically is because the system was not build to support multiple people editing the same game details at the same time

Hmm...cool! So - if I add this to my collection, should I delete BOP? Hmmm lol

#33 5 years ago

Added. Curious to see how many get listed.

#34 5 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

Added. Curious to see how many get listed.

I'm sure it won't be all of them, there's one called banned on pinside on the DP live page.

#35 5 years ago

I know my opinion is in the minority but I don't think it should a separate listing. The list is comprised of games that were made on a production line at a factory and BOP 2.0, as cool as it is, does not meet that criteria. I do like Robin's idea of sub-listing titles. We really do need a way to have the top 100 reflect 100 different games and not just multiples of Pros/Le's and gold versions.

#36 5 years ago

Glad you did that, robin. Now I have one extra machine in my collection

#37 5 years ago
Quoted from schudel5:

Not true on the TAF at least not 100% (trim and plastics colors aside). Fliptronics 1 vs. 2. No HV cutout on TAF when the coin door is open. -1 driver board on TAF and -3 on TAFG. Standard switches for flippers on TAF vs. optos on TAFG. Software was a bit different too. There are enough differences to warrant a separate entry.

Totaly agree on a separate entry for searches, repair, collection listing etc, but should be combined on the rankings and not have two spots on the top 100

#38 5 years ago

It makes perfect sense to have a separate listing. BOP 2.0 owners should list only that machine, as it's assumed you have BOP for that information.

All BOP 2.0s are also BOPs, but not all BOPs are BOP 2.0s.

#39 5 years ago

On August 13, 2015 BOP 2.0 Version 1.13 was released to ALL kit owners. Since this version completed the ruleset and was available to all, I made it the release date for the new entry. Thanks to everyone for their support and opinions.

#40 5 years ago

OK, I must be a moron as I can't find the 2.0 option in the search feature for adding a game. I tried to search via "BOP", "Bride of Pinbot" and "BOP 2.0".

***Edit - I finally found it. Required an advance search. Had to search by release date.

#41 5 years ago

I guess I'll openly agree to disagree on whether it is a mod. I think it is the most extreme example of a mod, but nonetheless a mod. Imagine you took an F-150, removed the stock engine and put in a hydrogen powered engine. It's still an F-150, with a different engine. If you change the rims/wheels on a car from stock 17 to 21" you change the characteristics of how the car handles, accelerates, brakes, but it's still the same model.

I don't think it lessons what DP did for a game that previously was pretty much seen as a one-shot game (I never personally saw it that way but I understand the reason for it). Now it has more depth so it scores differently. However, if compared with the difference in 'drive' like with a car and new wheels, the playfield plays exactly the same. If you just turned on power to solenoids, there would literally be no difference in the way the game feels. I think it is the most game-impacting modification made and it is indeed a modification because some things are replaced/rewritten/etc. Realistically, the BOP 2.0 package literally could have been a P-ROC with a DMD and the CPU to run it. Sounds could have been run through the old speakers.

I don't have any skin in the game other than the way I see language and I think the denotation of modification is still appropriate, even if it is near the limits of what could be called a modification. The only way I would really see it as a wholly new game would be if the Playfield were changed - significantly enough to play differently in its base physical form. Next would be a consideration for how the rules change things. Otherwise it might be possible to say we need new categories for Gottlieb SS's that use Janin boards because they add new rules, scoring, etc.
BTW, thanks for bringing your BOP 2.0 to the Expo Al, it is a really sweet game.

Robin, I'd love to see the pre/prem/etc thing go the way you suggested, one main entry with sub-entries possible.

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

The only way I would really see it as a wholly new game would be if the Playfield were changed - significantly enough to play differently in its base physical form. Next would be a consideration for how the rules change things. Otherwise it might be possible to say we need new categories for Gottlieb SS's that use Janin boards because they add new rules, scoring, etc.

so in your mind Pinbot and Jackbot are the same game, Jackbot is nothing more than a mod?

#43 5 years ago

I guess that Eldorado, Gold Strike, Target Alpha, Solar City, Canada Dry, and Eldorado, Lost City of Gold are the same game as well? They all use the same playfield. Three of them even have the same ruleset. I think that if you re-write the game from scratch, you've gone WAY beyond MOD. The kit IS a P-ROC with a computer and a laptop screen (and new sound system). The only board used from the old game is the driver board. You live close enough to me that you need to come over and we'll play the old and the new to compare. It's a new game, trust me!

Quoted from shimoda:

I guess I'll openly agree to disagree on whether it is a mod. I think it is the most extreme example of a mod, but nonetheless a mod. Imagine you took an F-150, removed the stock engine and put in a hydrogen powered engine. It's still an F-150, with a different engine. If you change the rims/wheels on a car from stock 17 to 21" you change the characteristics of how the car handles, accelerates, brakes, but it's still the same model.
I don't think it lessons what DP did for a game that previously was pretty much seen as a one-shot game (I never personally saw it that way but I understand the reason for it). Now it has more depth so it scores differently. However, if compared with the difference in 'drive' like with a car and new wheels, the playfield plays exactly the same. If you just turned on power to solenoids, there would literally be no difference in the way the game feels. I think it is the most game-impacting modification made and it is indeed a modification because some things are replaced/rewritten/etc. Realistically, the BOP 2.0 package literally could have been a P-ROC with a DMD and the CPU to run it. Sounds could have been run through the old speakers.
I don't have any skin in the game other than the way I see language and I think the denotation of modification is still appropriate, even if it is near the limits of what could be called a modification. The only way I would really see it as a wholly new game would be if the Playfield were changed - significantly enough to play differently in its base physical form. Next would be a consideration for how the rules change things. Otherwise it might be possible to say we need new categories for Gottlieb SS's that use Janin boards because they add new rules, scoring, etc.
BTW, thanks for bringing your BOP 2.0 to the Expo Al, it is a really sweet game.
Robin, I'd love to see the pre/prem/etc thing go the way you suggested, one main entry with sub-entries possible.

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

I guess I'll openly agree to disagree on whether it is a mod. I think it is the most extreme example of a mod, but nonetheless a mod. Imagine you took an F-150, removed the stock engine and put in a hydrogen powered engine. It's still an F-150, with a different engine. If you change the rims/wheels on a car from stock 17 to 21" you change the characteristics of how the car handles, accelerates, brakes, but it's still the same model.

I'll agree to disagree as well but since you used an automobile as an example I will give you an automobile example that better mirrors what BOP is.

Look at the Roush mustangs. They ALL start off as a standard GT. They are then shipped to Roush headquarters and converted into a Roush mustang which is then a fully certified car and then sent out to a dealer to be sold. It is still a mustang but it is distinguished as a different version of the car (kind of like a LE in the pinball world). This is the same with the Saleen cars. You would never compare track times (in pinball - high scores) of a Roush stage 3 car vs a standard GT unless you were trying to see how much of an improvement over a GT was made.

#45 5 years ago

The very definition of the word game is "a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck."

When the game's rules change you have a different game. Bop2 has completely different rules. The goals and what you need to do aren't the same. It's not an extension of the same game. It's all new and different. It's a different game with different rules and goals with a different title.

#46 5 years ago

I'm not saying it's the same game, but I do feel it still is a modification that makes it different. For me to be completely different would mean real changes to the playfield. Not here to dither over semantics. I'm not arguing it isn't a different game as much as I'm arguing that it is still a modification, that's all.

As for the Target Alpha/El Dorado example, they are different games by way of production, art, etc, but yes the layout is the same. I guess I would also accept that the repeated use of the layout makes them serious production modifications.

I don't see Jackbot as just a mod, but I'd say it is to PinBot what BOP2.0 is to BOP. It's only pinball though, so no need to argue. I'm just pretty specific about the meanings of words and as far as that goes, I'm inclined to agree with Can O' Beans's theory.

#47 5 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

I don't see Jackbot as just a mod, but I'd say it is to PinBot what BOP2.0 is to BOP. It's only pinball though, so no need to argue. I'm just pretty specific about the meanings of words and as far as that goes, I'm inclined to agree with Can O' Beans's theory.

Huh? jackbot is not a mod of pinbot, but 2.0 is a mod of BoP, but jackbot is to pinbot what 2.0 is to BoP? Aren't those 2 comments completely contradictory?
I rally am confused on how that makes any sense at all.

#48 5 years ago

Someone mentioned that I might see JB and PB as basically the same game, I do not.

My point has been lost and it's likely my own fault for either posting at all or for not editing my post for clearly.

I see BOP 2.0 as a mod, an extensive one, but a mod nonetheless and it mostly comes down to this, without an original BOP to change out the components, you can't have a BOP 2.0, BOP 2.0 wasn't ever manufactured. There isn't any turning PinBot into JB (At the present time I guess...) so yes those are completely different games. If BOP 2.0 was manufactured as a game... My only point was a disagreement about 2.0 being a mod or not. That's the only point I was trying to make. It's not an argument for me nor something I'm invested in, for me it's a mod, an excellent and extensive - game-changing - mod. That's all.

And I'll definitely get back up to your place sometime Al, just a matter of when as I'd like some real time on 2.0. I do occasionally miss my old BOP.

#49 5 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

There isn't any turning PinBot into JB (At the present time I guess...) so yes those are completely different games.

you sure on that? swap hardware and the display from a JB into or from a PB you sure it can't be made to play? Thats pretty much the same as DP did. aside from a possible connector blocks changing sizes whats the diff? Same inserts except the locations/ names are changed from planets to cards and the right plastic.

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

Someone mentioned that I might see JB and PB as basically the same game, I do not.
My point has been lost and it's likely my own fault for either posting at all or for not editing my post for clearly.
I see BOP 2.0 as a mod, an extensive one, but a mod nonetheless and it mostly comes down to this, without an original BOP to change out the components, you can't have a BOP 2.0, BOP 2.0 wasn't ever manufactured. There isn't any turning PinBot into JB (At the present time I guess...) so yes those are completely different games. If BOP 2.0 was manufactured as a game... My only point was a disagreement about 2.0 being a mod or not. That's the only point I was trying to make. It's not an argument for me nor something I'm invested in, for me it's a mod, an excellent and extensive - game-changing - mod. That's all.

You're just quibbling over semantics. You think it's a mod, and others don't. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. The question was whether or not the game deserved it's own entry in the Pinside database. In that regard, people overwhelmingly voted "yes". Case closed.

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