I have both jjp games and have had zero issues on both for over a year of ownership. Highly recommended.

If you are looking for a first pin no do not buy a WOZ. For the money you can buy 2 or three W/B 90s games that are far better for a first time buyer.You will hear WOZ fans tell you how deep the game is but because of that you will never see much of WOZ

I disagree with this. For the A-list 90s W/B games (AFM, MM/MMR, TZ, TOM, CV, AF, TOTAN, MB, etc.) that are in similar condition to a recently built WOZ the cost difference isn't that great. Case in point I traded a CV +$1k for my WOZ RR 75th with mods. I love the 90s W/B games and have no problem recommending them but they just aren't the bargain they once were.

FWIW I bought a "hard" game (The Shadow) as my first pin and absolutely loved it. Have I beaten the game? No, but I'm still having lots of fun trying! Plus you can adjust the settings and playfield for an easier time if desired.

I've never put much time on WOZ but if the concern is getting too tough of a game for a new player, I wouldn't sweat it. Now if you're worried about wife/kids/casual friends, that's another matter...

I disagree with this too... WOZ is a killer pin. If you are remotely interested in it, buy it. Tons and tons of fun to play.

Bring the outlanes in, set a ball saver, add some additional extra ball opportunities and WOZ is very friendly to an average player. The nice thing is as you get more skilled you have plenty of room to adjust the difficulty up.

Nearly a year in and still love it. There are lots of lower level objectives that are very satisfying to reach such as the mini wizard modes and Battle the Wicked Witch (most awesome mode ever).

Wrong. This was my first pin, and the game that got me into the hobby. After working my way backward through the games of the 80s and 90s, now I find myself focusing on the glory of EMs. And it's all because of WOZ.

BTWW is probably the most fun mode I've experienced in pinball. It's challenging to get there and to complete it. Good show and reward for completing it.

I've finished it twice in six months of ownership with lots of plays. It's a good level of challenge, then there's more to chase after it. JJP did an incredible job with the rule set on this game!

I never said you had to spend money like a sailor on leave for a first game a JY or Terminator 2 could be had for the price of a WOZ

Why assume the OP doesn't have the money to spend on a WOZ? We're talking about the game... not the budget.

On that rationale, no one should ever buy an A-list or NIB game at all -- there are lots of great games in the $1.5k-$3k range (and many still cheaper) and you can't credibly argue that they're only 1/5 or 1/4 as much fun to play as MM or WOZ. But if you have nostalgic attachment to a game, simply love the theme/package, or have plenty of cash but only space for one or two machines, going for a single high-end pin instead of a handful of cheapies may make total sense.

It's all personal preference. Woz is one of many great games. I've been very happy with my woz and never intended on it leaving. I realize how many other games I could get for the price of one, but I wanted a woz. It's just all personal preference. If you're debating on getting a RR still, I say go for it. Only gonna live once.

Completely disagree. WoZ has enough for beginners to enjoy and crazy depth to explore as you get better. Plus JJP is STILL updating what is the best code out there with even more new features. THAT's something you will never get from Stern or Williams/Bally.

I've heard this comment before but don't get it. Just because a pin is deep doesn't mean that you won't see much. Maybe that's true with pins that have linear mode progression, but WOZ isn't one.

Sure, 99% of players, including myself, will never make it to the final wizard mode "Somewhere Over the Rainbow". But, that's ok. I always have something to strive for. In the meantime, I have experienced every single other mode. I don't get to play them in the same game, but that's whats great. Every game is different. Sometimes, I stack the right modes and have crazy multiballs. Other times, I concentrate on accomplishing one mode. Some modes are pretty hard for me to get, so I've only gotten there a few times. Others are easier to get, and I play them often.

Overall, don't be turned off just because it is one of the deeper games. There is a ton to do, and you will see most of the game.

Just get the game. Got my rr two days ago. Honeymoon stage right now but wow what a beautiful pin. fun to play, got battle the witch last night didnt finish though next time

The witch battle is one of the most intense moments ever in a Pinball machine IMO. LOVE woz.

Invisiglass is awesome! I've got it on my WOZ and would like to have it on all my machines. I hope the price comes down since I need it for 25 machines. Does anyone know if you get a discount for buying in bulk.

Resale value alone is worth it to get the RR WOZ. When I sold mine recently I had more offers than I could keep track of. So if you ever plan on selling it someday, I'd say go for the RR WOZ.

MN, last 3 sold for around that

Wow those really went down in value then? I lost count of the number of 8K offers I had on my RR WOZ, one person said he would do $8,200. So I felt the value of the RR WOZ holds pretty decent. In the end I used it as part of a trade deal for 2 pins instead of selling it.

I ended up buying a standard w/ shaker, along with BAC castle walls and tornado...don't regret it one bit. Actually ended up deciding that I liked the silver habitrails better. What I didn't like was the cheap plastic castle walls. But Matt at BAC hooked me up.

Personally, I wouldn't over think the choice. You really can't go wrong either way. For me, it really didn't come down to a budget choice... just a preference... and I'd make the same choice again.

Yes, you can get a discount buying in bulk. But it's still expensive. And addictive. I now have Invisiglass or PDI on most all my modern games. RFM, Safe Cracker and Haunted House bring the exceptions.

The ones that sold were ECLE and Standards. Prices in WI tend to be a bit higher as well.

One thing I'd look out for is the 2.0 light boards. These are non serial, the latest updated, and the biggest selling point to buy (and even resell your machine down the line)

I'd have to disagree... I've talked to LTG about this. The older boards are fine... and there's no guarantee the 2.0 boards won't be problematic... just a few days ago someone posted that they had bought WOZ and TH with new 2.0 boards and both games had light board issues out of the box.

They are not fine.. They will never be fine... Perhaps they will work for several years. If they haven't failed, they *will* fail sometime down the road. With enough "on" time and play time, they will fail. Count on it. Plan on it. This is why JJP needs to come out with an update kit to update all of the older lamp board systems to the new 2.0 system.

I have also talked to LTG about this before I bought my standard. There are too many revisions of lamp boards to make a blanket statement that they are fine. LTG hasn't had any problems with his 7.5v buffered boards. Excellent for LTG. LOTS of other people have had lamp boards that are most definitely NOT fine.

Sure, one guy may have posted issues with 2.0 system, but it's not a continuously recurring trend with Hobbit games.

If you were to go buy a GB, your first question would be whether there was any insert ghosting or clearcoat issues.

When people who are informed go to buy a Woz the first question is about the lamp boards - among other issues the game has had.

I literally just got off the phone with JJP to order a couple of spare single LED boards since they seem to fail quite frequently - at least for me. $25 each. That's $25 to replace a *light bulb*

What happens when you can't buy them anymore? Do you think JJP is going to keep making them now that they have abandoned that system? I don't think so. Eventually there won't be any more to buy and then what?

I have said it many times, and I will say it again. JJP needs to introduce an update kit to update older serial lamp board systems to the parallel 2.0 system.

Right. And what will 2.0 owners do when JJP abandons those boards and moves on to another version? They'll be out of parts too? They're all screwed?

This notion that all non-2.0 owners are screwed is ill advised.

I think most users will balk at a $1000 DIY complete change for the lighting. I think it's the ultimate solution, but don't think it will happen.

I have to say I've been thinking the same thing. The new boards sound great, but they haven't been out long enough to really know whether they are more reliable long term. One definite advantage of the new boards is that when one goes, it doesn't affect others downstream. That's not enough for me to want to replace all of my boards, though.

I've made this point in another thread -- I really don't think JJP is just going to abandon the few thousand customers who have WOZs with the old boards. And, even if they do, there is enough people out there that someone will figure out how to make replacement boards and get some money.

I don't think screwed is the right word, but I believe it will become difficult for 1.0 owners - myself included - to keep their games running at some point. How far into the future is anyone's guess, but it *will* happen. Look at the big picture.

And of course they could abandon 2.0 users at some point too once they have moved on from that system. However it would make sense that if 2.0 is as reliable as it seems to be so far, they will stick with this for a while in order to recoup the R&D expenses on developing not just one, but two lighting systems in the last 5 years.

I suppose the cost of such a conversion - if it is ever offered - would be up to debate. It depends on whether or not JJP decides to subsidize the cost of the kit to support loyal 1.0 owners who basically bought the product that got the company off the ground. Whether they sell it for straight up cost or even at a small loss for each kit would be the right way to go. If they decided to try to turn it into a profit making exercise then I think it is doomed.

If you look at it, I would bet it's not the cost that would turn off potential buyers. It's the amount of work that would have to go into installing it. This is where you are going to lose a ton of people.

But let's say the kit was $1000. I would be willing to bet you would recoup that when it's time to sell the machine. Personally, I would totally spend more for a game with an upgraded 2.0 lighting kit over the original system.

I love my WoZ. Other than a few annoyances I think it's a great game. But I have to be honest. When I step up to my game to turn it on and play, I wonder if *this* is the day I end up with yet another blown lamp board. It gets old.

I do have to say, I've been experiencing this feeling a little bit lately, having had to replace my 6th or 7th GI board (all under warranty). JJP has been great, but it gets old. I wonder if this is just the price for living in the modern era of pinball. 555 lamps are cheap and easy to swap; whole boards, not so much.

How long has Hobbit been out? That's how long this system has been in production. Are there post after post about bad lamp boards in Hobbit? What about resale value? If your game was easily worth more with the updated kit would that be enough to make the investment?

JJP *will* abandon 1.0 owners some time in the future. It's just economics. The cost to keep producing or rebuilding these lamps boards will get to a point where it is no longer economically feasible. It's going to happen. I am not knocking JJP in any way. So far they have been great to deal with - reasonably priced parts and shipping, etc. But it's going to boil down to being a business decision.

Sure, *maybe* someone will come up with an improved lamp board, assuming they think there is a market, assuming the engineering time is worth it, assuming there aren't any patent issues that may crop up, etc, etc...

I would rather have an update kit that I have to pay for from the manufacturer rather than hope and pray that *someone* comes along with an aftermarket replacement. And that assumes the replacement functions the same as the original, which is not always the case.

Thank you.. This is one of my points. You are not going to be so happy when it's your 6th or 7th lamp board at $25 EACH (for the single lamp GI boards) you've had to replace while out of warranty. How many boards do you replace at $25+ a pop before you decide that you're tired of this **it and either sell the game, or want to upgrade to a newer, more reliable system?

I was told by JJP staff that if it happened, it would likely be in that price range. If I got credit for all the boards I've bought already trying to get the lighting stable, I'd do it in a heartbeat. When it starts having problems, the serial lighting is a mess.

It would be nice to see the price of a kit no higher than $750, but if it's a grand then so be it I'm in. A little bit of a tough pill to swallow to make something right that should have been right from the outset, but this kind of stuff happens in the automotive industry all the time. It is what it is. I feel the $1k spent would be justified in future resale value, plus the simple relief of not having to worry so much about the issue. Oh and they'd better have a 1 year warranty on the kit components too!

However, if it's going to be $1000 then they should absolutely have a rebate program for sending in all of the old 1.0 lamp boards. Then they could be refurbished for 1.0 owners who chose not to upgrade.

I don't think there is any chance of a rebate program, but I hope I am wrong.

First, I hope they come out with a kit.

Second, I hope you are wrong too. After all, it makes sense for JJP to set up a rebate program for the old boards. After all, assuming there is a kit, there will be a certain percentage of people who won't want to spend the money, or feel uncomfortable tackling the project. So there will still be a market for 1.0 boards. JJP could use the boards that came in from a rebate for those customers.

Speaking of all this board stuff... I have 3 boards (7.5v buffered GI mini boards) I need to order tomorrow. One is pretty much dead and the other two are flaky. At least I'm still under warranty .

Would I buy an upgrade kit? Depends on price. It's certainly not a project that at all intimiades me, in fact I think it would be fun to install. For me, at this point in time it wouldn't because I feel like it's in any way needed on my machine as other than a few of my GI boards all has been peachy... just would be fun.

I seem to recall that the WOZ 1.x boards use an RGB controller that has been discontinued, which even today could make building more 1.x boards more of a challenge (or maybe there still a warehouse in china with a billion of them in bins). Anyway, I'm assuming/hoping that the 2.0 boards have replaced that component with a part that is currently being actively manufactured. Further I hope that when they do get discontinued (as what seems to happen with greater frequency these days), there be a direct replacement made available.

The problem is that in todays world of putting disposable electronics in just about everything, I don't know if any of these manufactures would have any incintive to continue making these components for our pins after everyone starts using the next latest greatest RGB chip in their color changing ice cubes, cotton candy sticks and whatever else. Conversly if it was a part manufactured just for pinball instead of something that gets put into just about everything, they would cost a fortune.

Do you know any permanent electronic part in the market as opposed to "disposable"? What happens when updates can not be made or software loads can not be done because USB sticks are so outdated or they don't make the power supplies or mother boards for JJP machines anymore?

I get all the frustration with electrical components becoming outdated, I really do, but I am not going to fault JJP for making better games with updated parts and moving along with the technological advances. If it worries you all so badly that parts will not be able to be made in a few years then at $1,000 a pop I will start making them or some other company will. No need to "THE SKY IS FALLING" rant and rave over something that will most likely never happen. I am not picking on you merccat, your just the last post here, you actually have helped a lot of WOZ owners in past, all I am saying is, enjoy your WOZ.

P.S. When your WOZ fails to boot up one day, its more than likely your PCB cell battery died and needs replacing, begin rant on why JJP uses "disposable" batteries.

The issue isn't with the electronic components becoming outdated. The issue with JJP making kits to update 1.0 machines to 2.0 machines is to rectify an issue with a *known* defect in the design of the game. All 1.0 boards will eventually die an early death due to this issue. The "sky is falling" scenario involves what happens when 1.0 owners can no longer get lamp boards. There is no easy solution for when - not if - this happens.

Sure, we all know that certain components - especially semiconductors - are going to go obsolete. That is the price for the ever evolving and improving electronics and computer markets.

As for the motherboard comment, I remember the issues with P2K. This is why I have a spare motherboard for my WoZ ready to go. I have planned for this, and hopefully all WoZ owners who plan to keep their game have also. And yes, the lithium coin battery on your WoZ motherboard really should be changed every 3-5 years. No different than changing the alkaline batteries on any other game that uses them.

No one is ranting per se. I am simply banging the drum for JJP to produce a 1.0 to 2.0 conversion kit to help alleviate a known design issue with the game.

I'm not thinking the sky is falling or faulting JJP... in fact the opposite. My feeling is that thats the state of electronics today and if we were not to go with it out ligts would cost a fortune.

If I were to switch out lights it would be for fun, not necessity.

Also just pondering that the chip availability may be part of the reasoning behind the redesign and I applaud JJP for recognizing that and not leaving WOZ behind.

As far as thr mobo goes thats not even a concern in the slightest...
If my woz mobo someday fails (doubtful) I'll have two options: If USB is no longer a standard (also doubtful) find something on ebay.. or if USB and Intel are still around (more likely) buy whatever new $25 mobo is available. Software doesn't scare me.

Yeah... I love my WOZ but it ain't no snowflake, its meant to be played and enjoyed and thats what it gets almost daily.

I agree with this. It's a shame when a few people start beating the drum of doom and gloom based on shaky facts and bold assumptions.

You'd think any non-2.0 WOZ is toxic.

Ridiculous... and it's completely unwarranted.

I just want to add: this notion that JJP is quickly drying up on parts for the 7.5v boards simply ain't true (if you believe the source: JJP)...and the notion that the JJP doesn't have the chips, that isn't true either.

Two ways you can look at this: you can choose to believe someone on a message board that has no true knowledge of what JJP really has, or you can pick up the phone and speak to Jack. Really it's your choice. Of course, you can choose not to believe Jack... that's your choice too. But choosing to believe a random poster on a forum that's spouting facts based on loose assumptions and gut feelings seems way riskier.

I didn't get the impression from anyone that parts or chips are drying up today.

They of course are not. However I would speculate that part of 2.0 is a recognition that the supply is in fact finite and preparation for the future.

My thought is that to think existing supply is infinite is not a smart assessment given the current state of technology manufacturing.

It is an amazingly awesome thing that JJP is bringing WOZ along so that when that supply does edventually run out (thinking in scale of decades here not weeks or even years), there will be options to keep these amazing feats or art and engineering in their full glory.

Further 1.x is not toxic, I would not hesitate to buy a 1.x machine... Inhavr a 1.x machine and its the best game I have ever owned... however if I were shopping for new anyway I would demand a 2.x. Further being a realist about tech I would like an upgrade path for 1.x should it ever be needed....

However maybe it is all premature... by the time we can no longer maintain 1.x perhaps it would be an upgrade path to 4.x that would be needed.

. Edited because wrong information

There is no right or wrong choice on a personal decision using an obviously different value system. But it is very poor form to attack members who suggest or have made a different personal decision. I wouldn't touch an early WOZ with a 10 foot pole. Other's will.

Thanks to this thread I also now know about the newest WOZ offerings and the multiple light board differences/changes.

I would do it because it would be a fun project, no other reason. Yeah its all speculation, nobody has any clue what they would sell for because JJP is not selling them.

I'm absolutely certain it is JJP's intent to service these for eternity... however at some point (far far beyond warranty) it will become more cost effective to upgrade to whatever latest system is available at that time. That is the reality of tech. We shouldn't burry our heads in the sand about it, we should acknowledge it, address it and move on.

It's only going to keep getting better as new stuff comes out lets leverage that (and I think that JJP is doing just that)

Personally I'm waiting for the light boards linked through a wireless mesh network.

A couple of points:

1: No one ever said it was the end of the world and the sky is falling. I am merely advocating for an upgrade path for 1.0 owners to the 2.0 lamp board system. Be realistic. JJP invested in the 2.0 system precisely because of the issues encountered with the serial 1.0 system. Again, it is a *known* failure point. If it was 98% reliable do you think they would have invested the resources into redesigning the system? I doubt it unless there was some other compelling reason to do so.

2: I am sure that 1.0 lamp boards will still be available for some time. There are no "shaky facts" or "bold assumptions" to my arguments. Fact: The system has been abandoned. There will be no further development on this system. So think about it. How long will these parts continue to be available? These are $8000+ pinball machines. I certainly don't want mine to become a boat anchor simply because I can no longer service the proprietary lamp board system. Fact: Unless parts are available *and* it is an economically sound decision, these lamp boards will cease to be produced. I again, I would prefer to upgrade to a better, more reliable system. Hence advocating an upgrade kit. Woz had already been built with the 2.0 light system. So there is a way.

3: I have never said nor will I say that 1.0 system games are toxic. After all, I bought an early game fully informed about the lamp board issues.

4: A little healthy skepticism from the consumer is a good thing. If you go to the Ford dealer and ask them who makes the best pickup, guess what they are gonna say? Same with Chevy, Dodge, Nissan, Toyota, etc. Do you honestly think that Jack or anyone else at JJP is going to say "Yeah, when the supply of 1.0 boards is gone we won't have replacements for you." No, of course they aren't going to say that. Again, be realistic and think about where the "information" is coming from.

5: People can either see the writing on the wall and advocate for an upgrade path for 1.0 systems, or they can drink the JJP kool-aid and blindly believe that JJP will have parts for these games for the next 20 years. Having been on this earth for a while and experienced what I have experienced, I choose to be a realist and see the writing on the wall. There are no "loose assumptions" and "gut feelings." It is simple and basic interpretation of known facts, plus the knowledge of how "the market" works.

I can tell you one thing that is also a fact: In time, we'll all find out which way this goes. I hope I am wrong and you can still get lamp boards for 1.0 games in 20 years. Somehow though, I don't think this will be the case.

From one "random poster" to another, thanks for that.

This whole discussion reminds me of when I was a kid and bought The Legend of Zelda cartridge for the NES. It was somewhat revolutionary at the time because it used a battery to save your progress instead of a password like other games (e.g., Metroid). I remember when I learned that the battery only had a 5 year life that I expressed frustration to my father. He laughed at me and said that I wouldn't be playing in 5 years anyway. Sure enough, after a few months, I had conquered both the main and secondary quests multiple times and moved on to other games. Later in life, I was able to download the original The Legend of Zelda and play again. People's feelings change, and technology has a way of making things happen.

Right now, I say WOZ will never leave my collection, but I have no idea how I'll feel in 5 years. At some point, all versions of the boards will stop working and replacements will be needed. Someone will offer something. I was more concerned with the USB dongle that has an encrypted code that you need to run the software. I remember asking about it in another thread and wondering how the pin would function if that dongle stopped working and JJP was out of business. I believe Lloyd responded and said something like, "the pinball community is full of creative people." There are a ton of WOZs out there owned by home collectors that will be kept in pristine condition. It is one of the greatest machines. There will be demand for it in the future, and somehow, people will find a way to have replacement parts.