Fun-Fest
Williams, 1973This is driving me crazy. Yesterday it counted ok for about 5 single-player games. Later it wouldn't go past 1 on ball count. Today is intermittent; it might go 1,2 then hang for a while, go to 3, hang on 4, etc. Seems to have more of a problem when it's multiplayer. See schematic below.
Hi currieddog
maybe Your problem is along the horizontal line (see JPG). Maybe the Ball-Index-Relay does not stay pulling once You make points on the Score-Drums (?)
SteveFury shows his testlight here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 - mount it as I show in my JPG - then play the pin and have a look at the testlight (have long wires on the testlight so You can take the testlight through the open coin-door into the open). Play the pin and watch the testlight: You launch a given ball - You make some points - NOW the testlight MUST light-up AND STAYS lighted until You loose the ball ...
If You do not have a testlight --- not so comfortable: Look here http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/820/Williams_1972_Fan_Tas_Tic_Operator_Manual.pdf on page-21(ori-20) the Ball-Index-Relay-Switch-A. Clip-on two Jumper-Wires and take the other ends through the open coin-door into the open.
Play the pin --- whenever a new ball is given: make a connection - play the ball - loose the ball - the pin steps to next player - OPEN the connection.
I advice: MAKE Yourself such an handy testlight --- very handy ...
In the ipdb-manual look-up the Outhole-Relay, Extraball-Relay, Ball-Index-Relay - check all switches (specially the ones shown in my JPG) - wires soldered-on ? contact-points clean ? Greetings Rolf
Clean the stepper units. A box of 500 cotton swabs is around 3 bucks. Use 97 rubbing alcohol.Don't use a rag. Check the spring tension,one wrap too many will produce too much tension and weird play effects. If the main shaft of the Player Unit is laden with grease it will never play properly without disassembly/cleaning/polishing with emory cloth/light lube with a silicone-grease.
The Pinball Resource sells spring kits if stretching the old springs "A Little" doesn't improve performance.
There is a pin on the back that rotates and shuts off switches, it may be in the wrong hole.
Rolf-what about if the ball index relay is not staying? And Phil-Lee-do you mean the wipers/contacts?
How about the score motor as a culprit? And here is an interesting thing I forgot to mention: a few times in the past two days when it has been sort of working it has clicked to "game over" from "5" while the ball was still on the playfield.
Hi currieddog
a faulty behaviour of the pin can be caused by different things - phil-lee questions "mechanical fault (?)".
When the fault is "always" or when it is "often" - my strategy is: I have the playfield lifted - the backbox cover is off - I can simulate playing and at the same time I look into the pin (maybe a friend helps - he does simulate playing and I stand at the backbox or I have my head in the cabinet).
When the fault is seldom, rare - I would go crazy with the mentioned strategy --- I then use another one: I mount a testlight (as shown in post-2) - I have the playfield down and I (really) play the pin. When the rare fault happens - I question myself: Was / is the testlight lighted ? This helps me in "narrowing down on the problem".
You play a ONE-Player-game - and the fault happens often - You may troubleshoot "first strategy" --- have the playfield lifted - start a game - the pin resets and gives ball-1. By hand make some points - question: Does the Ball-Index-Relay pull-in and stay pulling and stay and stay pulling ?
IF (if) "No": You have found the fault - please write about.
IF (if) "Yes the Ball-Index-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling" simulate "Ball is lost" - AND look at the Player-Unit "Step-DOWN" side - question: Does the plunger move ?
Do this "simulate playing and looking" until the fault happens - WAS the Ball-Index-Relay steady pulling ? DID the plunger on the Step-DOWN-side move ?
Do the "simulate and look" again - this time Your focus is the "Ball-Count-Unit" - does the plunger on the Ball-Count-Unit Step-UP side "slightly move but not step" ? With this (Ball-Count-Unit step-up-side) You check "phil-lee's" theory of sticky unit needs to be cleaned.
We do not know where the fault is - we try to narrow down, greetings Rolf
The ball index relay is always pulling and holding. I think the problem lies somewhere between or at the ball trough relay and/or the outhole relay, but I don't see any loose connections. Another thing that has happened, and just occurred now when I was playing 2 players (and it was counting fine up til 4) was that the relay from the outhole that puts the ball up to shoot keeps kicking over and over after the ball is up, and (sometimes) the ball count will go from 4 or 5 to Game Over while the ball is on the playfield.
Also, I don't think the units need cleaning; they look good and have been checked. The intermittent nature of this (like now, advanced fine until "4" when it stayed for two plays, then went on normally) makes me think short or connection, but I don't see either.
Hi currieddog
we people trying to help do make suggestions - You have a look and maybe say "Unit is clean and steps freely - so we can eliminate "possible mechanical fault".
We put away for the moment the mysterious problem "non-consistent, sometimes faulty stepping on balls / players" --- the JPG here shows about "mysterious stepping to Game-Over.
It is a bit complicated - You get some kind of "Bonus" when You loose a ball - here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=972&picno=45245 the "Target Bonus 1000" is lit - You loose the ball and You get the 1000 points. Thats why the schematics is a bit complicated.
On a working pin happens (JPG) "light-green" makes the "Ball-Through-Relay" pull. Then "dark-green" makes the Outhole-Relay pull-in and establishing Self-Hold-Current.
"marked orange" the pulling Outhole-Relay together with "Score-Motor-Switch-3A" make the Ball-Index-Relay let go.
"marked red" as the Motor keeps on turning: The Ball-Release-Coil fires (SCM-4A) AND THEN the SCM-5-Make-and-Brake-Switch CUTS the Self-Hold-Circuitry of the Outhole-Relay.
And when the Outhole-Relay is pulling and stays pulling (not on the JPG): The Ball-Count-Unit is stepped up till Game-Over.
The Outhole-Relay can FAULTY stay pulling when the Score-Motor-5-Make-and-Brake-Switch is faulty --- OR: The Outhole-Relay can FAULTY stay pulling when the "Ball-Through-Relay" FAULTY stays pulling (too long) --- question: When this fault happens: WHAT is the Ball-Through-Relay doing ? (Pulls and let go --- or stays pulling ?) Greetings Rolf
Rolf, thanks so much for all your insights. I'm a bit lost on the above diagram though. I have not been looking for what the Ball through relay does as the advance to Game Over has been so rare.
Latest here: the Ball index relay continues to pull as it's supposed to and the Outhole relay is pulling (though sometimes not on the first ball into the trough), but the ball count is not stepping up, or does so rarely. This after earlier in the day when it was pretty much working as it ought to.
Could the Score motor be involved?
Best, Dan
Hi Dan
The fault "advancing all the way to Game-Over" is rare - lets put this problem away for the moment and go back to the "Stepping Problem sometimes not stepping one step correctly".
I would like You to understand what is happening in a ONE-Player-Game after You have lost the ball (and after You got the 1000 or 3000 or 5000 "Bonus-Points), see the JPG.
In some way the Outhole-Relay is made pulling - as it pulls-in the "encircled light-blue switch" closes - this makes the Score-Motor start running --- as the Motor begins a turn - immediately after start: The INDEX-Wheel lifts its switchstack and the switchstack stays lifted for a turn (a turn of 180 degrees). So "encircled dark-blue, SCM-IND-E" keeps the Score-Motor running (180 degrees).
ONE-Player-Game,end of ball-1, stepping to ball-2: The Outhole-Relay is made pulling "switch-red-1" is moved --- You did NOT made an Extraball so "red-2" is closed, You have made some points so the Ball-Index-Relay is steady pulling, means "red-3" is closed. The turning Score-Motor closes "red-4" - electricity flows around (red-5) the Player-Unit - through (red-6) the Coin-Unit to "red-7, red-8" - the Ball-Count-Unit-Step-UP-Coil - it fires, its plunger travels and at end of travel the "red-9" EOS-Switch on Ball-Count-Unit closes - this makes the (red-10) Player-Reset-Relay pull-in, its switch (red-11) closes - the turning Score-Motor has closed / keeps closed "red-12" --- the (red-10) Player-Reset-Relay stays pulling for a while.
The Outhole-Relay is pulling and the Score-Motor is running - NOW through "green-A, -B, -C, -D" electricity comes to "Switch green-E on Player-Reset-Relay" --- as the relay is pulling: Switch-green-E is moved and the electricity makes the "green-F Player-Unit-RESET-Coil" fire (((in a ONE-Player-Game the firing of "Player-Unit-RESET-Coil" is not needed --- BUT IT IS DONE))).
IF we would be in a 2,3,4-player-game at end of player-1-ball-1: There would be no connection "red-5 / red-6" - so NO firing of red-7, -8, -9, -10, -11, -12. Therefore the electricity would run: green-A, -B, -C, -D - "green-E is not pulling" - electricity reaches green-G, the Player-Unit steps to second player.
A faulty NOT stepping usually means "a Switch is a bit dirty - sometimes contact / sometimes no contact" or "a wire has broken-off a solder-lug --- wires are stiff, they stay in place --- sometimes".
You should take the JPG and the ipdb-Manual - locate the relays and the units and the switches and the connecting wires --- gently pull on every wire - soldered-on or broken-off ?
I advise: Make Yourself some of these handy testlights.
Just to get the feel - do sneak-in a stripe of paper into the switch on Extraball-Relay --- You will stay in "Player-1-Ball-1" forever (stripe of paper keeps the switch open).
Just to get the feel - do sneak-in a stripe of paper into the switch on Ball-Index-Relay --- You will stay in "Player-1-Ball-1" forever. Greetings Rolf
P.S.: All switches on all relays are shown in the ipdb-manual starting at page-18 (ori-16) --- page-12 (ori-10) is good (INSERT means Backbox, Mech.Panel means cabinet), the Stepper-Units are shown on pages 13 to 17.
Hi Dan
the "circled Make-and-Brake-Switch above the Outhole-Relay" ? Do You mean "the encircled dark-blue Switch named 'M.B. IND-E' " ? I show it here again near the drawing of the Score-Motor. We talk about this switch beeing the "Score-Motors Self-Hold-Switch". A feature calling for help makes the motor to start running - the motor turns and so actuted in time: first, second, third etc.: INDEX-Wheel, so-called "Number-1-Wheel", so-called "Number-2-Wheel" etc.
I like it when this Score-Motor-Self-Hold-Switch is the OUTMOST / TOPMOST switch on the Switchstack on INDEX-Wheel - for some reason I now and then need a Score-Motor-Turn: I gently press down the outmost / topmost blade on INDEX-Wheel and let go --- result: The Score-Motor nicely makes ONE turn of 180 degrees --- may want to try this (?).
Please use this JPG ONLY for "get hints for testing in a ONE (!!!) Player Game".
In this JPG I show "light-green" - I call them "Micro-Jumper" - example: on "red-2-green-B Switch" I simply connect the switchblades / Solder-Lugs on the "Switch on Extraball-Relay" - I say "I do not make Extraballs so this switch MUST always be closed - I GUARANTEE (with the Micro-Jumper): THIS switch is closed.
All of my "light-green lines" show examples of such "Micro-Jumpering".
The "dark-green Jumper" not only closes a switch or 2, 3 switches - "dark-green Jumper" ALSO jumpers the connecting WIRES in-between the switches in the pin as maybe there is a breakage in the connecting WIRES (?).
The "light-blue jumpering" I call "long-distance jumpering", "dark-blue" is also long-distance jumpering, "dark-green" actually is also long distance jumpering.
Because the fault in stepping does not happens on EVERY stepping: I suggest the use of several 24Volt Test-Lights - each one mounted on a coil on a relay or on a stepper. You have mounted them and You have the playfield down - the Test-Lights lay on the apron (taped) --- You play and watch these lights - You get the feel of "when the pin functions then the sequence / timing / duration of the different lights is THIS" --- then the fault shows up - WHAT LIGHT acted "other than normal" ? With this setup You do not only work - You also have some fun playing.
Candidates for "Test-Light mounted on the coil": Outhole-Relay, Ball-Through-Relay, Ball-Index-Relay, (Ball-Release coil), Player-Reset-Relay, Player-Unit-Reset-Coil, (Player-Unit-Step-up-Coil), (Ball-Count-Unit-step-up-Coil) --- we still must consider "a MECHANICAL problem on a stepper.
(((Mechanical problem: " the sequence / timing / duration of the different lights" is exactly the same when the pin steps nicely - as when fault shows up - we clue "SAME behavior of lights - but different behavior in the pin": Must be a mechanical problem. Greetings Rolf
Many thanks! I won't be able to try this for a day or two, but will report. And yes, I meant the MB-IND-E switch; it's on the Score motor? Or near?
Dan
Hi Dan
when we see in the schematics a switch with "circle / oval / ellipse" drawn around the switch: This is a Score-Motor-Switch. We may read (examples) "C 2-B" , "O 4-A", "M.B. IND.-E", "5 IMP.-C" --- complete text to the examples: "on Wheel-named-2 the second switch from bottom-up (the 'B') is open when the motor is not running - but it will close at some time when the motor is running", "on Wheel-named-4 the bottom-most switch (the 'A') is closed when the motor is not running - but it will open ...", "on Wheel-named-Index the fifth switch from bottom-up (the 'E') is an Make-and-Brake-Switch", "on the Wheel named-Impulse the third switch from bottom-up (the 'C') is PULSED FIVE times when the Score-Motor makes a turn (of 180 degrees)".
Look in Your pin - You see the "real Motor" then the "INDEX-Wheel" then the "Wheel-named-1", then "-2" etc. and on the other side You see the wheels with teeth on the outside (to PULSE five times) - the "IMP.-Wheel" and the "IMP-Forward-Wheel".
In the JPG in post-14 I have encircled "dark-blue": "M.B. IND.-E, Make-and-Brake-Switch" --- this Switch (Make - part of the switch) is the Self-Hold-Switch for keeping the Motor run, making a full turn (of 180 degrees). It is the switch also shown in post-12, JPG - keeping the motor running.
Do You see it (?) - in post-14, JPG: "1-B" and "2-B" --- and in the drawing of the Score-Motor the text: "pulses Ball Count step-up", "pulses Player Unit". (((I am not happy with the word 'pulses' --- it is ONE PULSE for one turn. I would prefer to use the word 'pulses' when there are FIVE pulses each turn --- but Williams decided and I must accept))) Greetings Rolf
OK Rolf-It's gotten more interesting: I made the testlight, which is pretty amazing considering my weak soldering skills. Ball count ALWAYS works when it is hooked up (on ball index coil as you showed above), BUT 3x out of about 8 single and multi-player games the light stayed on after the ball was lost. The first time the ball index relay had released (the light flickered some, but stayed on), the second I could not check because the ball was already in play, and the third time it had not released, but the ball count advanced. When I disconnect the testlight, intermittent ball count step up resumes. Two times it jumped to "Game Over" while the ball was in play, both times on multiplayer games. Light always goes on with first points scored.
Dan
Now on 4 player game it cut to Game Over after 3rd player's 5th ball. It seems to happen after times when the "ball loader" from the outhole keeps kicking after the ball is already up.
Hi Dan
it is getting mysterious - I would like to "make clear" some stuff. I am "(Swiss) German speaking" so I sometimes struggle with an "english expression". You once used the term "to skip" - I thought this is "the pin should make ONE step but it does (AAA) not make a step" --- as well as "the pin should make ONE step but it faulty makes (BBB) 2,3,4 ... steps".
Sometimes Your pin does make ONE step (correct (CCC) behaviour) - question: You have CCC and what ? (CCC and AAA - but never BBB) / (CCC and BBB - but never AAA) / (CCC and AAA and BBB) --- please write, so I learn the meaning of the english "to skip".
There is some difference in the way when we chase a AAA-Fault or when we chase a BBB-Fault --- and if Your pin has both: It is more difficult.
I show different ways of "faulty lit Yellow Bumpers":
(alpha) You toggle-on the pin, start a game, reset is done and the pin gives "first ball" - NOW the yellow bumpers light-up and stay lit all the time.
(beta) You toggle-on the pin, start a game, reset is done and the pin gives "first ball" - NOW the yellow bumpers light-up and stay lit until You loose the ball - for a short period of time the bumpers are unlit - but then - as the second ball comes to the shooter alley: Bumpers are lit again.
When it is "fault beta" we can say - the fault must be: Stuck "Switch on On-Yellow-Relay (encircled dark-blue)".
When it is "fault alpha" we are tempted to say "must be stuck switch on the playfield (encircled light-blue)". People then look at the playfield switch and may say: NOT STUCK. Yes, "fault alpha" can have another cause: The "encircled dark-blue switch" is stuck and ALSO the (encircled brown) "Switch on Outhole-Relay" does not functions correct - it does not open " my green line".
Great - You made Yourself an Test-Light - may I ask You to make a second (maybe also a third) Test-Light --- I am interested in "Ball-Index-Relay", "Outhole-Relay", "other relay".
Mounting a Test-Light to a coil on a relay should not have an effect / influence in the behaviour - Your writing in post-18 "disconnecting the Test-Light and the faulty behaviour RESUMES" - question: Does this means "when Test-Light is connected THEN fault NEVER happens" ?
I think we should have a look at "JPG in post-10" and look what the Outhole-Relay, Ball-Index-Relay and maybe "Through-Relay" are doing - please write about AAA / BBB.
Specially I am interested in "Outhole-Relay pulling" --- is it kept faulty pulling too long by (my green question mark in JPG, post-10) - the "pulling Ball-Through-Relay" --- or is the Outhole-Relay made faulty pulling too long because the Self-Hold-Circuitry (with the encircled green 'Outhole-Relay-Switch') does not open ?
For analogy I showed my "alpha / beta stuff on Yellow-Bumper lit". Greetings Rolf
Quickly, "skip over" would be like going from 3 to 5. You're "skipping over" 4. And yes, when the test light is connected, the ball count always steps up.
Thanks! Busy and back to this in a couple ...
I just played a 2-player game and the ball count always stepped up, even when the test light did not go off in between. One time I checked the ball index relay had not released. And I can tell when it's going to jump to Game Over from 5 with the ball in play: the kick unit that puts the ball up from the outhole keeps kicking even after the ball is up and ready to shoot. Seems it goes to Game Over when the first points are scored.
Hi Dan
the second JPG is "to relieve me a bit" - as the complete feature "end of a ball to new ball given" is complex.
Sorry for my confusion - I hope and I rely on "Your Fun Fest NEVER does 'not stepping' --- it ALWAYS does step - sometimes correct to 'next ball / next player' - sometimes faulty 'one or 2,3,4 steps to many' ".
Lets look at the first JPG - in a running Fun Fest at a time the Outhole-Relay is activated - it pulls-in, establishes Self-Hold-Current (stays pulling for a while), makes the Score-Motor run. As the Score-Motor turns the Switchstacks on the many wheels are activated - ONE Switchstack (wheel) then (in time after) another Switchstack (wheel) then another and another etc.
First the Switchstack "Index-Wheel" - then Switchstack "Wheel-called-Number-1" - then Switchstack "-Number-2" - then "-3" then "-4" - then "-5" (((and finally as the turn ends: The Switchstack on Index-Wheel is moved backwards))).
Top of first JPG - the Outhole-Relay is pulling steady - Motor runs and actuates "1-B", "2-B", "3-A", "4-A", "5-A" (the "A" and the "B" are the positions in a given Switchstack).
The "1-B" and the "2-B" are for stepping to next ball / next player.
The "3-A": The Switch in the JPG shown above SCM-3-A, the Switch on the pulling Outhole-Relay is open (as the Outhole-Relay is pulling) - so when SCM-3-A actuates / opens: The Ball-Index-Relay drops out / quits pulling - the "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay, encircled violet, red-3, green-4" therefore OPENS. From NOW ON it is impossible to step on ball / player.
The motor turns further - the SCM-4-A lets the Ball-Release-Coil fire - the ball is kicked over to the shooter alley.
The motor turns further - the SCM-5-A cuts the Self-Hold-Current of the Outhole-Relay - the relay let go and the motor stops shortly after.
The complete feature "end of a ball to new ball given" is complex --- the pin does reward You (when loosing a ball) with 1000 or 3000 or 5000 points, lighted here are 3000 points on Taget-Bonus: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=972&picno=45245 . In this complex feature "end of a ball to new ball given" ALSO a stepper must be stepped forward to Zero, the "Swing-Reel" - we see it in the backbox, here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=972&picno=36603 the Swing-Reel happens to be already on Zero. (((maybe Your problem has to do with this Swing-Reel ?)))
When faulty stepping occurs: Does the pin faulty steps ALWAYS BEFORE the ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley ? Or does the pin faulty steps ALWAYS AFTER the ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley ?
Or (when faulty stepping) sometimes before and sometimes after the ball is kicked over to the shooter-alley ?
When faulty stepping occurs: Does "faulty stepping occurs" ONLY when You have some points on the Swing-Reel in the Backbox ? (but never faulty stepping when the Swing-Reel is on Zero)
Can You guarantee that the Playfield-Switch underneath the Outhole (Outhole-Switch) TRUELY opens when the ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley / leaves the Outhole ?
Can You guarantee that the "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay, involved in stepping on ball / player" TRUELY is open when the relay is not pulling ?
Please mount Your Test-Light on "Coil of Ball-Index-Relay" and play many games / balls. The Test-Light is lit when You loose a ball - do You have "faulty stepping" when the Test-Light has turned-off / is not lighting any more ? Does the Test-Light sometimes stays longer in time lighted than normal ? Does it go off but comes-on again ?
May want to have a look at Score-Motor-Wheel-called-Number-3 - Switch "A" - the bottom one that does cut the Self-Hold-Circuitry of Ball-Index-Relay (when the Testlight sometimes is acting strange). May want to check the Make-and-Brake-Switch on Outhole-Relay (when the Testlight sometimes is acting strange).
Greetings Rolf
HI Rolf- I just played a 4-player game with test light on ball index coil and ball count step up was perfect all the way through. I removed the test light and started another 4-player game, and it was perfect until player 2, ball 2 where it stayed for another turn. Then it went to player 3, ball 2 and stayed for a number of plays. I hooked the test light back up (to ball index coil) and ball count step up resumed and was perfect until game over. I will have to look closer at what you wrote and what you want me to try tomorrow. Thanks, Dan
Rolf-I just played a game with the testlight on the Outhole relay coil. It lights up every time the ball is lost, but the ball count did not step up everytime. It also lights up when the kicker that puts the ball up to shoot keeps kicking.
Looking back, there is no Ball-Through or Through relay. Do you mean the Ball Trough relay? Ball trough seems to be pulling correctly because the Outhole relay lit the testlight everytime the ball was lost.
Dan
Hi Dan
I have a problem in understanding - in post-20 I was writing about CCC (correct steping means one step) and the BBB (to many steps) and the AAA (no stepping at all) -- and I asked what You have. You did not write about - I then wrote in post-23: I assume and I rely on "You never have AAA. In post-25 You (now) write "the ball count did not step up every time". Does this means You have CCC and BBB and AAA ? Please write about as troubleshooting on the AAA-fault is different then troubleshooting on the BBB-fault.
IF (if,if) mounting the testlight on "Coil on Ball-Index-Relay" makes the pin "fully running": Want to accept this miracle and have the testlight mounted permanent ?
I went in my basement (put away some garbage) and opened my "Fun Fest" --- I can create the BBB-fault: I start a game, the pin resets and kicks out ball-1 for a single-player-game. I lift the playfield and secure the playfield beeing lifted. I manually make some points and I see the Ball-Index-Relay pull-in and stay pulling. I stand at the left front corner - I put my left hand (CAUTION - not touching electrical stuff !!!) at the "armature / anchor-plate of Ball-Index-Relay" and I press the armature - I manually KEEP my Ball-Index-Relay PULLING. With a finger of my right hand I gently press upwards the bottom-switchblade on the Outhole-Switch (I simulate "Ball has rolled into the Outhole between the flipperbats") --- AND I PRESS-UPWARDS on the OUTHOLE-Switch and I press and press upward - keep the switch closed (for a long time I make (left hand) the Ball-Index-Relay faulty pulling, I make the OUTHOLE-Switch faulty always closed) --- AND THE PIN MAKES the Score-Motor run and run and run and the Outhole-Relay actuates and actuates and: The pin steps MANY steps --- I can produce fault-BBB.
(((Want also to try "manually produce" a BBB-fault ?)))
I asked some questions in post-23 - please answer - among other questions I asked about: Can You guarantee that the Playfield-Switch underneath the Outhole (Outhole-Switch) TRUELY opens when the ball is kicked-over to the shooter-alley / leaves the Outhole ?
Please write about AAA and BBB and Outhole-Switch - and "having the testlight mounted permanent on "Coil of Ball-Index-Relay". Greetings Rolf
Rolf-please re-read my posts. Even though I didn't use AAA, BBB, CCC terminology, it does say each time what happened with or without the testlight. Thanks, Dan
Also, it seems that the focus should be on why and what is going on with the ball index relay that the testlight fixes, no? Dan
Hi Dan
You have revealed long time "misreading of Rolf" - 'Ball Trough Relay' is correct - "Through" is my faulty word --- not related to our problems - Gottlieb uses slightly other words and the pins have other logic and so "Gottlieb uses "Ball-Return-Switch" what on a Williams-Pin is "Outhole-Switch". Gottlieb pins have a switch - when the ball is kicked over to the shooter alley the ball then closes a switch --- for Years I have read and read and read "Ball Through Switch" imagining myself: "ball rolls THROUGH here".
Your Williams Fun Fest has that complicated feature "when loosing a ball some 1000 or 3000 or 5000 points are given" and for this feature there is a relay 'Ball Trough Relay' --- and as I have read faulty for years in Gottlieb schematics 'Through Switch': So I said OK - Williams has a in the Fun Fest a 'Through Relay' --- faulty, faulty --- truth is: Gottlieb has 'Trough Switch' and Fun Fest has 'Trough Relay'.
When fate says "There shall be one or two or more faults in one of Rolfs pins - he must fix the pin" I the prefer:
ONE fault - ALWAYS showing up
worse is: Two faults always (as they may have influence on each symptoms)
worse is: One fault - SOMETIMES
worse is: Two faults sometimes
and by now I believe You have in Your pin: Three faults sometimes ...
Up to now I used Jumper-Wires and Test-Lights as "tools for diagnosis" --- a miracle to me (and worth "topic on its own"): A Test-Light mounted on the Coil of Your Ball-Index-Relay makes dissapear ALL the faults in Your pin. Besides thinking of writing a topic "Strange etc. Test-Light etc. " I am tempted to say: "Have the Test-Light mounted permanent - after months or years the Test-Light may go bad - then buy a new Test-Light. Simply mount it - take the playfield down so You do not see the Test-Light --- and happily play Your pin".
When You want to keep-on troubleshooting: I would like to put away for a while the problem of "to many steps" - I would like to concentrate on "sometimes NO stepping". I would mount the Test-Light on the Coil of Ball-Index-Relay and watch the Test-Light. Look in the second JPG in post-23 - The Ball-Index-Relay is made pulling when You bang a tilt and the Tilt-Relay is pulling.
The Ball-Index-Relay is made pulling when the Extraball-Relay-Switch is closed (relay is not pulling) AND You make some 10 or 100 or 1000 points. The Ball-Index-Relay pulling-in establishes Self-Hold-Current and so stays pulling by closing its Switch (encircled red) --- loosing a ball makes the Outhole-Relay pull and open its switch - and when the Score-Motor turning opens the SCM-3A: NOW the Ball-Index-Relay quits pulling.
And because SCM-3A opens after the actuation of SCM-1B, SCM-2B: The stepping on ball / player has been done (this stepping You see in the first JPG in post-23).
The situation is frustrating (I see no easy fix) - so I would like You to have three Test-Lights, mounted on "Coil of Ball-Index-Relay", "Coil on Outhole-Relay", "Coil on Ball Trough Relay" - have the playfield down and play --- You will see a "normal pattern" in the lights (turning on - turning off --- now this - now that etc.) when the pin acts "normal". And every time a fault shows up - the questionis : What was other in the pattern ? Greetings Rolf
Hi Dan
it's a drag - my camera is not a good one. We do not see much.
Good, ipdb has schematics AND the Manual - so I show the drawing of the Outhole-Relay taken from the manual. We see two wires "muddy-brown-yellow" - the abundant in the pin "wire-yellow" - one of them is kind of "coming from somewhere in the pin" to Switch-E and the other one "leads further to somewhere in the pin - away from Switch-E".
AND hopping from "Solder-lug-wire-color-yellow on M&B-Switch-E" there is wire-plastic-insulated-little-jumper to the other lugs having "-Y-".
My "rosa/pink line" is wire-color-white-black --- from one side of the coil of the relay this wire goes to "Solder-lug on Switch-A" - this is the "Self-Hold-Switch on the relay" we see this switch drawn in a schematics NEAR the coil of the relay.
You should compare "drawing of relays in the manual" to "reality in Your pin" --- If I would make pictures of "situation in my pin": Less information. Greetings Rolf
Currieddog- three things.
1) You are in great hands with Rolf- he's a tremendous asset to the site, and really knows his stuff. I'm fairly competent at reading schematics, and still end up stuck sometimes-- and he's dragged me through a problem to a solution more than once.
2) Early in the thread you talked about the score motor-- the score motor is an absolutely last resort whenever possible. I've taken in a bunch of orphaned EMs over the years, and there was only one time where the problem resided in the score motor-- and even then it was only a bit of solder than had come loose from a wire and was causing an intermittent problem.
3) I have a Fun Fest. I can take a look at those relays when I get home and post a photo for you... but either way, yours have been tinkered with. It looks like there's a whole lot of electrical tape in there!
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Springfield, MA
Aarau