(Topic ID: 114711)

Interesting Review on WOZ 75th LE

By MiamiRedSkin

9 years ago


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  • 679 posts
  • 148 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by Rick432
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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16
#322 9 years ago

It's funny that "The Pin" by Stern comes with in-home service that includes labor for a delivered price of $2500, but the games that cost 4x that amount AND are supposedly built tough for continuous commercial service don't.

LOL

#337 9 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

BMW Has never and likely will never make an M7

I like a G6

12
#344 9 years ago

Rule #1:

Always blame the victim.

TILTed post. Sign in to be able to view TILTed posts.
#386 9 years ago

Alex, did any actual fix for the lightboards ever come out?

I mean, besides getting 4 new boards from JJP (in this example), has anyone ever figured out what is wrong with them and issued a Tech Bulletin?

There are 2 WOZs that are on route, always turned off because the inserts are 1/2 dead. If there was some explanation somewhere on what blows up on them (or what needs to be done to upgrade/bulletproof them), I could bring a rework station and fix them on the spot.

Or if a tornado swept JJP away (Allah forbid it), a tech bulletin would be lifesaver for 1000 games.

#443 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Alex, did any actual fix for the lightboards ever come out?
I mean, besides getting 4 new boards from JJP (in this example), has anyone ever figured out what is wrong with them and issued a Tech Bulletin?
There are 2 WOZs that are on route, always turned off because the inserts are 1/2 dead. If there was some explanation somewhere on what blows up on them (or what needs to be done to upgrade/bulletproof them), I could bring a rework station and fix them on the spot.
Or if a tornado swept JJP away (Allah forbid it), a tech bulletin would be lifesaver for 1000 games.

Any fix?

#458 9 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

They aren't the same lighting system. They also aren't serial any longer.

Has any method been documented to repair/update/bulletproof the existing lighting system?

#461 9 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Me thinks you are being ignored my good man.

If I am being ignored, that is a pretty big answer right there about the long term serviceability of the game.

#466 9 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

The existing lighting system has had the issues rectified. (with the exception of being serial. That is what it is and its why we changed it going forward). The entire design of the lighting system is in the woz manual which is available for download.

Yep, I have the manual, but I don't see any service bulletins like I see with Williams/Bally/Stern where a known problem (like the light board) is shown with preventive fixes, repairs or workarounds.

I've yet to see any thread where anyone has fixed those boards, the "repair" is always replacement with another board.

I know JJP is on solid financial ground, but if there is one thing pinball manufacturers are known for, it's leaving the business (out of 671 manufactures, there are 2 remaining) .

So a thread, video, or formal Service Bulletin on some preventive work, upgrade, or an actual fix for exiting boards would be very welcomed by the community.

#468 9 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

As far as "bulletproofing" I'm not sure what you mean because I've seen your threads on bulletproofing but that term doesn't and should never apply to pinball.

It totally applies to pinball.

Sometimes the manufacturer did not fuse the bridge rectifiers, so the game actually catches fire. We (us pin techs) add some fuses and thus keep the game from becoming ash.

Other times, a higher rated part keeps a circuit from blowing out or burning the circuit board.

Or adding a .01 cent diode modification allows a display to run 24/7 for 20 years instead of 2 years.

#469 9 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

I'm going to leave that to our EE as that is definitely not my area so I don't know the specifics of what would be needed to be done to a game if anything.

Excellent.

I'm looking forward to his reply!

59
#477 9 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

You can think what you want.
It's all moot regardless. You decided to not have an experienced pin tech come to your house gratis and rectify the issues. Have a great day.

Alex,

C'mon man, you are better than this.

There are thousands of potential JJP customers reading this.

TRY and win this guy back someday.

TRY and encourage others to become JJP fans.

Even if your head is exploding with snappy comebacks, snarky comments and condescending answers; just wrap things up like a gentleman and be done with it:

" "
Hey Reviewzone, I'm very sorry about the experience you had with WOZ. Whether you are a seasoned collector, or a 1 week newbe, no one should have had all those problems right out of the box with a brand new game.

As you can probably tell, I'm a programmer, not an ambassador.

I've PMed you my personal phone number. Maybe not today or next week, but at some point please call me to vent, yell, curse, say I'm a SOB or just talk pinball. I'm not just saying it, I really want to leave this on a positive note.

Again, I'm super sorry about how the whole situation went down; that is not the JJP experience we want for our customers!

Humbly yours,

Alex

PS: If you want to meet up at a show, the beer is on me (actually, I'll just bill it to Jack).

" "

Take a deep breath and just fix this. It's way easier to salvage this relationship than to keep digging a deeper pit.

#479 9 years ago
Quoted from BLACK_ROSE:

Well said vid1900 ,,, Alex is speak-n thru JJP & for JJ -- What's that tell ya ? JJ is a member and is reading these post's .. They Don't care ..

Even if Jack and Alex really didn't care (and I believe that they do), it would still be 1/100 of the energy expended to just say "Sorry for your experience. If you will ever give us another chance, I promise we will more than make it up to you."

So much easier......

#483 9 years ago
Quoted from FrankJ:

It has been established in this forum that the machine was sold and repurchased by Automated. Get the damn machine back to JJP, as is, and have your people look at it. I can't understand why a company would NOT want to clear this up - quickly.
Come on Pin - you have the time to reply to all of these posts, but not enough time to call Automated? Or, did you already do it and don't want to report what you found out? That's what it is starting to sound like.

It does not matter what's actually wrong with the game.

What matters is:

1. Losing a customer who could have easily been retained.

2. Losing future sales from the same customer (he obviously has the PB bug, AND has the cash).

3. Losing 1000s of other potential customers who read how this newbe guy was treated, and is continuing to be treated.

11
#486 9 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

So what level of pinball tech. does this guy have?

Zero.

He just got into pinball a month ago.

That's why blaming him for a broken game is so ridiculous.

He did not buy a fixeruper, he bought a BRAND NEW GAME.

Quoted from pinstyle:

I just can't understand someone owning several machines that really doesn't have a good grip on how to fix them.

He just got the bug, and bought a bunch of games.

An excellent way to start.

12
#496 9 years ago
Quoted from Asael:

But now comes the part I can't understand. The company offers him a technician that would come for free to fix the game, he rejects that!!!! Does he really have the right to complain in this case?

You missed the video.

The 2 techs from JJP could not fix the problem over the phone.

Then Jack himself called the customer all irate, accusing the customer of breaking the game by lifting the playfield and making sure all the connections were secured.

At that point, the customer said he felt he had had enough and returned the game.

-

Again, the customer could have easily been retained......

22
#507 9 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

I think the guy is nuts to dive in and pull a seven pin collection together without knowing anything about them ........ I know you have to start somewhere but holy crap, might want to just get one and at least learn a little before diving that deep.

How long should he have to wait to have 7 pins in his collection? 6 months? 12 months? 2 years???

If he died a month from now, would he be happier if he had one game or seven?

What about the customers who buy WOZ from that 75th anniversary catalog? They certainly don't have any pinball experience. Do you think they won't call their credit card company in a minute when a brand new game does not work, and they are told that labor is not covered?

I have clients that have 20 game collections and don't know how to get the glass off.

If a rubber breaks, it sits broken until I'm in town to fix it.

Should they only own a single game until they "learn a little"?

Should my 90 year old customer, Ronnie, not have his game because he does not have the dexterity to hold a soldering iron any longer?

22
#509 9 years ago
Quoted from Spencer:

Come on Vid, so he says! ( and yeah maybe it did happen but who really knows what was said ?? ) He was pissed off and rightfully so but we didn't hear the phone call. So far all we can go on is they offered to send a tech to fix it and he declined. ( he admitted that. The rest, we have no proof of)

We don't need to hear the phone call, just look at the public responses from Alex on this thread, and now think of the responses that were probably made in private.

This isn't a court of law where we need to hear the phone call.

This is the court of public opinion - where you want to make your company look good, look compassionate, look like you give a shit....

#517 9 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Who knows why people do things ? I don't try to analyze them. I try to help fix their game.

Great material

26
#577 9 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

The more I think about this thread, the angrier I get. I've had problems with products in the past, but the last thing I do is think to myself, "Hey! I should pick up a camera and YouTube what a piece of shit this is!" Now, I get that that's what this guy does (if it's for a livin

If you did video reviews of $200 toys for a living, why would you not do a video review of a $9,000 toy you just bought?

You can't be surprised if someone does what they do.

-

And I know the video is gone now, but he did say "This is MY experience....."

He did not say it was YOUR experience, or anything like that.

It sucks when no one is allowed to convey THEIR experience without threats of lawsuits and attacks from fangirls....

#578 9 years ago
Quoted from cichlid:

If Jack does not fire Alex and hire Vid instantly after reading that post, then Jack is an absolute moron.
I'm 100% serious here.
That is how it's done!!!

Thanks for the job application, but as much as I love Jack, I don't think I'm going to work at JJP anytime soon:

1. I get paid for the work I do. Working for free? No way.

2. Other than a WOZ playfield, I don't own any JJP product. Kind of hard to offer real tech help if I don't have any "hands on" experience.

21
#584 9 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

You can call me a fangirl all you want - I've been critical of many things with JJP. God forbid anybody takes their side.

Nobody has to take their side, because they have handled this whole thing terribly, and embarrassingly.

It would be like taking Comcast's side after listening to all those hilarious "customer support" phone calls.

Quoted from beelzeboob:

And I didn't really attack the guy. I just said he was impatient.

Calling him **impatient** is blaming the victim - that is something we NEVER do in life.

You can't say to a woman who has been raped "Yeah, but you got to admit, that skirt is pretty short...." - Never blame the victim.

Quoted from beelzeboob:

When I have a problem, I deal with it

Everybody deals with problems in their own way.

This guy dealt with his problem with his wallet.

It might not be how YOU would have dealt with it, or how I would have dealt with it.

Quoted from beelzeboob:

I don't smear the company to the whole world.

You are for some reason taking this guys personal experience as an attack on JJP.

I "lemon lawed" two BMWs and posted my experiences on the BMW forums. It does not mean I'm "smearing" BMW. I was just reporting my personal experience.

I would not buy another BMW, but YOUR experience with the brand might be totally different.

We can still be friends.

#599 9 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

If the video broke no laws, he should put it back up. It's not that hard to figure out if something you've said is libelous/slanderous. If he did say something that could get him in trouble, he can simply bleep that bit out.

Companies can sue you, even if you are completely in the right.

Sure you can fight it out "on principle", but is $10,000 on legal bills and months of your time worth it for a pinball machine you did not like enough to keep?

18
#620 9 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Do you honestly think Jersey Jack Pinball would sue someone over a youtube vid when he had no case?

How should I know?

Companies bully people all the time, depending on the advice they get from their counsel.

Quoted from metallik:

You've made your mind up that Jack is the villain here.

There is no villain here.

You are missing the point by a mile.

(slow down and really think about this):

We have a wealthy CUSTOMER who buys a $9,000 toy.

He is not a "pinball tech", or a lifelong collector. He's a month into the hobby.

He buys a brand new game for the family.

It has numerous problems right out of the box.

CUSTOMER is told by first tech that even though game is brand new, labor is not covered in any repair.

It does not matter if theses are simple problems or not - two techs can not get the game working on the phone, and at least 4 light boards need replacement.

Jack calls the CUSTOMER and berates him for "breaking the game".

CUSTOMER says he has had enough BS and returns game.

Alex is snide with now PRIOR CUSTOMER in public forum for 1000s to see.

-

There is no villain, just a majorly mishandled incident.

#625 9 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

Weeeee....that was a fun spin
Can I go again?

Sure.

Come and get one in the yarbles, if you have any yarbles.

17
#634 9 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

There are events missing in your recollection.

- How exactly did Jack find out about the game and its issues?

- What did RZ do to the game before Jack called? Remember, we have only ONE SIDE of the story here

- What did RZ say to Jack or his techs prior to any phone call?

- What did RZ say to Jack during this phone call?

None of that matters.

You are so busy being defensive, you are still missing the entire point.

-

Forget pinball for a second and pick a new consumer product.

Ural Tech: Hello, Ural
Metallikduh: Hey I just uncrated my new Ural and the lights don't work, it's stuck in 2 wheel drive and it only runs for a minute before it stalls out.
U: Sounds like you need a new generator, lamp switch, and I'll put you to the next tech to figure out the drive.
M: Can you come tow this to the dealer?
U: You'll have to pay for repair labor and towing, because we don't cover that.
M: It's brand new!!! $9,000 and already I have to pay for labor?
U: Sir, this must be your first Russian motorcycle - labor is never included. We can send you parts for 6 months.
M: But it's brand new!!! And I see on the internet, problem with the lights is widespread!
U: Hey they use these things to deliver mail in Siberia. They are built tough. Easy for a good mechanic to service.
Ural Tech 2: Sounds like you need a new trans, did you try and drive it?
M: Yes, but it would not stay running. I tightened the battery posts.
U2: Oh, you should not mess with the wiring.
M: I did not mess with it, I tightened the battery posts.
U2: Ummm, this is bad.
Ural of America's Owner: Hey, I hear ya gota problem there.
M: Yeah, brand new and already I've got all these problems.
UAO: Well, what the hell were you messing with all those wires for in the first place?
M: Wha??? I just tightened the battery posts.
UAO: Yeah, you got's to keep your hands outta where they don't belong, kapesh? Ya go around breaking our bikes, then callin' cuz stuff's broke. Ya know, ya can'ts complain if ya did it yourself.
M: Really??? It was broken right out of the crate.
UAO: Sure, the moment you started unpluggin' all they wires there....
M: You know, I think I'm going to call my credit card company and run a chargeback. I REALLY think I messed up buying one of your bikes.
UAO: Wadaya mean chargeback??? I tells you somthin', even though you broke it, I'lla send my boy over and tow that thing in - how's that sound?
M: Yeah, no thanks, I'm outta here.....
UAO: Hey, don' ya goa postin' your experience on those internets either, cuz my mechanics, ya know, they are gona be snarky with youse and put youse down - cuz you don't know nuthin' 'bout fixin' bikes....

In no other consumer industry would anyone be expected to buy a brand new, very broken $9,000 item and then be treated like a jerk.

ural-motorcycle.jpgural-motorcycle.jpg

#639 9 years ago
Quoted from TimeBandit:

This is a quote from my Springfree trampoline warranty that I bought the kids at Xmas..
"This limited warranty does not cover expenses related to on-site labor, travel, assembly or disassembly or other charges associated with the repair or replacement of covered components."

So if you opened the box and 4 of the springs were overstretched, and the decking was frayed and sparse - what would you do?

Call and wait for parts?

Return it for a better model?

Get berated on the trampoline forums for not having extra springs around already?

#669 9 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Wow, degenerated to name calling?

People have been calling Metallica Metallicduh since the 80s when they first heard Lars' voice (or at least since Napster).

Don't be so sensitive.

Not everything is about you.

#673 9 years ago

You guys are killing me about the Ural motorcycle thing.

I'm not saying they are bad or unreliable.

If you are too old for a crotch rocket, but not old enough (or yuppy enough) for a Harley, then a Ural could be your ticket to hell.

They are a two wheel drive hunk of Russian iron. You can drive them in the water, in the snow, anywhere really.

But if you don't like attention from hot women, do not get one (I mean this).

Chicks will climb off a $30K Harley in a split second and jump in your sidecar.

If you are a true road warrior, you can get a "kit" Ural bike sold as a Dnepr. It's not really a kit, you just mount the engine and the side car, but by being imported as a kit, it does not have to pass any USA emission standards. Slap it together, drive it to the DMV and get a title for the thing. They are only $4k.

So for less than the price of a Stern Pro, you could own something really stupid.

http://www.armycycles.com/special.aspx

dnepr.jpgdnepr.jpg
6561285259_aa7c2b80d5_b.jpg6561285259_aa7c2b80d5_b.jpg
Rivermonster.PNGRivermonster.PNG
Motherrussia.PNGMotherrussia.PNG

#677 9 years ago
Quoted from cichlid:

Do you think the DMV is going to let you register that?

Yep, no problem at all.

No different that building a custom motorcycle.

Your title says "custom built" or "kit" depending on your state.

The DVM inspectors see that it is obviously a factory built bike, they check that the lights and turnsignals work and sign off.

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