The warranty may say "Labor not included", but Stern and JJP are going to send someone at no cost to fix a game just unboxed if it can't be fixed over the phone. That's just good business. It's also good business to have "Labor not included" in the warranty to keep from losing too much money by having to pay a tech for a house call for a simple "loose connector".

I believe when he said "No manufacturing company pays for Labor..." he was referring to the warranties. Otherwise, Metallik was contradicting himself with the next sentence...

Not a contradiction. He was making it sound like JJP would do it out of the kindness of their heart even though they didn't have to. That's not correct.

Yet another he said / he said / he said / but he said thread. We'll never know exactly how this went down. The truth, as always, is in the middle somewhere and people have lost sight of the larger issue (another WOZ with issues, a customer's negative interaction with the company owner) and instead focused on bickering over minutiae in an attempt to blame one side or the other. In the mean time, the more some people post, the more you learn about them. For better or worse (usually the latter).

For me, I'm sorry to see the video creator essentially bullied for posting what was a level-headed account of his experience and even sadder to see JJP (allegedly) threatening legal action if the video wasn't removed (petty / insecure / ridiculous). Maybe some details were off, but on the whole, he was balanced. He praised tech support and praised the gameplay (when working). Mostly, he was upset that the owner of the company took, by his account, an unprofessional tone, and that soured him on wanting the game at all. At that point, what did or did not happen after is moot. He was done as a customer, which is a sentiment I can certainly understand.

Fair or unfair, that's how this works. A bad day for Jack or any public facing personality for JJP can destroy a customer relationship. Why this guy gets slammed and called names for sharing that makes no sense. But, welcome to Pinside, I guess.

_{Post edited by pinballwny: Typos}

There are some lemons with all products. I think JJP having Lloyd, Keith, and yes Alex on their team is a plus. I am a software architect/consultant and have to work with guys that are abrasive sometimes - but I don't mind it that much if they are very competent and their heart is in the right place (see Alex). I am confident that if a JJP product I owned had issues, then JJP's team (given the chance) would be able to resolve it.

Just my 2 cents.

lloyd you read something wrong, i didn't ever state that jack called me on christmas. i said jack said i COULD have called him on christmas. it was the monday following christmas week that i talked to you, then about an hour after i talked to you jack called me.

i didn't say anything to jack that initiated his nasty call to me. I didn't say one word other than hello and yes this is him.. after that jack spent the next 10 minutes blasting me before i ever said much back to him. For an arguement to take place the other person has to be given a chance to at least argue a point, which didn't happen until i listened to jack roast me for several minutes. So if your saying you didn't say anything to jack about the situation then the seller of the machine must have called him and said something.. because if jack treats everyone that way right out the gate then i feel really bad for anyone that has to deal with him. I still don't fully understand why jack was so pissed off with me, i just assumed it was because of something you might have said to him but if thats not the case then i really don't know.

Lloyd, your a nice guy and you were great to deal with on the phone, you did nothing wrong and i'm sorry that your even mixed up in this. I know you just wanted to help.

Again im done discussing all of this garbage, every other post is some other new bs or accusation and its just not worth more of my time. i decided to respond directly to you lloyd because there was some sort of mix up with what you thought i said or thought you read.

Come on centerflank, I agree with most of your posts - but cancel an order because of Alex?

I like BMW - driven them for years - but if a mechanic that services BMW called me a C*#@sucker I would not stop buying BMW cars.

If BMW let a representative of their company come on a public auto forum and act in the manner Alex does on here, I probably wouldn't buy one.

Hey, you do like to argue.

Do you think that both Stern and JJP have ridiculous warranties then?

It's not all moot. You may think that the way you phrase things and talk to people doesn't matter on the internet but it does. You alienate a lot of good people by throwing up this wall of douchebaggery. As always, I'd love to meet you in person, because I do know that people are different online than they are in person, but you definitely have turned me off by the way you post.

Doesn't mean you are a bad person or not helpful.

This is my main point about Pinchroma - he reminds a bit of other architects/techie guys (not a PR guy), they wear their emotions on their sleeves, sometime a bit condescending in their approach, and even arrogant. I see it all the time. Seems to go with the territory sometimes. But I look past it - as long as he is able to get it done. But I can see how some people are very turned off by it - I just don't seem to be all that bothered by it.

EDIT: I think Alex and I would get along fine, I am nice to a fault - but sometimes call it like I see it even if it stirs the pot

And that is purely interpretation. Thats the point. You don't know whether I am typing this post with a sweet undertone or not. If you find someone who has ever met me in person and has spent any length of time with me or over I have worked with I can guarantee their assessment isn't one of "douchebaggery". That's not how I am. Someone like that wouldn't bend over backwards to help people in need or give up my on personal time to ensure other peoples fun and happiness. Regardless of what is typed there is NO way to infer intent or feeling behind a textual post.

It may only be my interpretation, but perception is everything. Same goes for the guy who made the video. His perception is that he was treated poorly, so that's the truth to him.

If you don't think you can convey emotions by picking the right words/phrasing, I don't know how to help you. Do you think people are saying this to you for some other reason?

If I were working for a company for free and all I got was a boatload of shit, I'd probably have a pretty short fuse as well. I really don't have a problem with anything Alex says, as long as he's there for me when my machine craps out (which hasn't happened in about a year now). Shit in, shit out. If you don't like what he says, don't poke the bear.

That's partly it. The same few people (who know who they are) are out to incite riots and flat out lie to push an agenda really rub me the wrong way. It's not even remotely about pay/free though. One way or another that for me has nothing to do with it. I just REALLY dislike folks who's entire being is around purposefully messing with other people especially when they are trying to do good things for other folks in this hobby. I have zero respect for that.

I consider it an honor that 2RustyBalls gave me thumbs-down for this. If I can get CraZ4Pin to join him, my work here is done.

Where did the machine in the video end up, and how long did it take the new owner to fix the minor issues? Have I missed this info?

He said he returned it for a Star Trek Premium. He did that before fixing it or posting the video.

The distributor ended up with the machine? I'm just wondering what was found out about the machine, and what it took to fix it.

Rustyballs is resorting to thumbs down because he got ejected from the thread.

It's funny that "The Pin" by Stern comes with in-home service that includes labor for a delivered price of $2500, but the games that cost 4x that amount AND are supposedly built tough for continuous commercial service don't.

LOL

I figured RobT was too smart to answer this.

For others - my point is that both Stern and JJP have the same warranty. If you think that JJP has a ridiculous warranty then you also think that Stern has a ridiculous warranty.

That said, they both go above and beyond to take care of their customers IMHO.

I just watched the video again and I didn't see the cable either.

Video deleted.... I too had a lot of issues on my 75th, and ALL of my friends had more or less the same (the infamous switch #73, the coil stops not tightened, the witch adjustment, etc..) . But all MINOR issues at the moment.. nothing compared to the first hours of my NIB ST LE last month....
Also the post-sales service is second to none. A friend has a defective shaker blowing up fuse F709. He got a new one shipped in less than 24 hours....

Pinball.... What a lovely sport

Same question I asked 2 hours ago. Too much info and emotion in this thread. Find out what it took to fix the machine and we can make the decision on where we stand on the issue.

Did the op easily fix it? Did it end up back at JJP? We are all seeing the beginning and middle, but not the end of the story.

Actually, before I bought my last car I wen to the BMW dealer to check out an M7. The way I was treated at the dealership made me leave and buy a mercedes instead. Now, if there were multiple BMW dealers I would have tried the other one. But how a company treats a customer says a lot about what you will get in the way of service going forward. The BMW dealership doesn't know they lost a sale and given their attitude wouldn't care. But some of us care how we're treated.

Somebody go to them there wraslin' forums and tell them the REAL drama is here!

wrastlin.png

Must have been EXTREMELY difficult to go check out a car BMW doesn't make? The only way they could have treated you was with a questionable stare at the request to test drive a fictional car

BMW Has never made an M7 (Although Alpina makes the B7 and it's pretty beast)

Damn straight. I traded my last car in to another manufacturer while it was still in the shop being serviced under warranty because of mouthy district rep. Took my money where it was wanted. Life is too short to put up with flippant and rude customer service. When I was into sports, a coach once handed out the poem, "little eyes apon you". The message has stuck to this day. People are always watching your behavior.

And if true that Jack threatend the YouTube poster; what a coward.

But JJP offers a personalized touch. What other company can you think of where the CEO will personally call you and berate you over the phone. Gary Stern doesn't do that

I'm sure the vast majority of customer interactions with Jack are great but it's been a few instances of pettiness and inconsistency that have made me apprehensive. -The whole issue with not supporting NIB warranties from a certain vendor is the other thing that jumps to mind. If WOZ were a game that 99.9% reliable and didn't require manufacturer specific parts that aren't carried by outside parts vendors then it would probably be fine. But what happens if you get on Jacks bad list somehow and aren't able to get parts for your machine due to a grudge or general pettiness? The good will of replacing light boards and other components after the warranty expires may continue for a while but at some point that will probably stop. Is there another vendor that these parts will be available from? WOZ is a fantastic game but It's not nearly as much fun when it's not working and you can't source the parts to fix it.

I hope your coach wasn't an English teacher!

My bad, M6. Like i said, didn't buy one =) And since you like to accuse people of being pedantic, the model of the car wasn't the point.

Sounds like this....

18d0dca.jpg

Well aren't you the bright bulb in the pack. Can't refute the message so attack the grammar. Petty is as petty does. I am posting on a forum not submitting a thesis. Weak. Very weak.

I like a G6

If the point is to sell pinball machines then you don't want to do anything that COULD BE INTERPRETED as condescending or accusatory. What you actually intend to do is irrellevant. The only thing that matters is how the customer or potential customer interprets what you say. Proving that you are right and that they are wrong isn't the goal, the goal is selling pinball machines and maintaining a happy client base. So, all the time spent on trying to show the customer is actually wrong, or has ill intentions, etc. is wasted because it's not helping you sell games. Whether you mean to or not, you're comming across to a lot of people as more interested in proving you are right, instead of trying to satisfy the customer.

Also, unless you are VERY certain the customer has ill intentions, then you should not be accusing them or even mildly implying that they may have ill intentions. This guy does not fall into the category of "the same few people" who are constantly trolling JJP threads. Yet you've made statements that could be interpreted as lumping him in with them.

Understand that there is a VERY good chance that your average person will watch that video and conclude the maker was a reasonable guy with reasonable expectations. When you say anything that implies he's got ill intentions, it makes you look like you're trying to avoid responsibility by attacking him. That same average observer is going to think long and hard before buying your product because they'll always be wondinger "what if I have a legitimate problem and they treat me like this?"

Skins...please chillax. That's why I put a winky-face there. I was just joking around so please don't take it as an attack. Just trying to lighten the mood here. I agree with your point.

Wait, that song is about a "G6" and not a "cheese brick"? Dammit.

Holy crap, I think I'll just drain this thread and forget what just happened. Pinside, man... I can remember when just about every new pinhead was welcomed here with open arms so we can all have friendly civilized discussion, regardless of opinion. Now, I dunno. I have certain people on ignore (use your imaginations) but doesn't seem to cut down on how much negativity I see on a daily basis. OP, I'm very sorry for your experience. I have lost pretty much all respect for Jack and Alex for a while now.

My appologies. I did misinterpret your post. Thank you for the clarification.

It's all good

Rule #1:

Always blame the victim.

I said mechanic, not dealership. My point is that Alex doesn't actually work for JJP, so why would I penalize JJP by not buying because of someone that volunteers for them? Your story is a bit different - if I was treated badly at a dealership I sure wouldn't buy from them. But never buy another product from their parent company - not so sure about that. Though I may get an A6 next anyway, LOL.

He works for them. He represents them. He is them. Payment doesn't have to be made to make this a reality.

Alex is an employee of JJP as is LTG. Just because they don't draw a salary doesn't mean they aren't employees.

Thanks for the clarification, obviously do as you will - shoot the messenger or punish the sender, or not...up to you.

I actually went to the Audi dealer also looking at an R7 and they were also lacking. It amazes me that someone who wants to buy top cars in a line doesn't get treated better. The Mercedes dealership is awesome though. Great service and great sales guys. Any of those cars are probably good but service is the main issue I'm concerned with. I had a Jaguar and the local Jaguar dealer couldn't fix my XKR properly. No more cars from them.

Alex does work for JJP no matter what he or anyone else says. If he worked on the OS and does software tasks he's working for JJP paid or not. The fact that he works for free for a for-profit company boggles my mind a bit. But whatever works for him. I've done lots of work for open source stuff and glad I did. I just wouldn't give my services away for someone making money off me.

I totally agree with this No matter which of the luxery brand dealerships you walk into they really do need to put their best foot forward. There are many now to choose from including Lexus and Infiniti and others (not just BMW, Mercedes, and Audi). Though I have heard good things about Mercedes to your point.