Everyone has to start somewhere. Bought and sold my first one without knowing how to work on them.

Do you honestly think Jersey Jack Pinball would sue someone over a youtube vid when he had no case?

This is assuming the threat even came from JJP. RZ hasn't exactly explained what he was told, has he?

You've made your mind up that Jack is the villain here. That's fine, welcome to America. I prefer to know more about what happened before assuming the worst. I see some hothead making mountains out of molehills WRT his machine's issues. I see the same dude being a complete dick to Lloyd here on pinside. I reason there's a good chance he was a complete dick to Jack at some point, and maybe that's why Jack wasn't a garden of roses when he called. I *know* that despite all of whatever, Jack was still willing to send someone to fix this game, for free, and RZ said no and sold it for a thousand dollar loss.

Yeah he only berates specific people

http://twitter.com/jerseyjackpin

JerseyJackTwitter.jpg

That isn't JJP's twitter account. "Jersey Jack Pinballs"

Or is it?

That's the part of this that hasn't been explained... how did Jack get involved? No one has claimed to have contacted Jack about this faulty machine, yet Jack somehow had RZ's contact information. I wonder if Jack was given faulty info about what had transpired with RZ's machine? But who initially contacted Jack?

It's Jack from 2011, before he figured out that building pinballs was hard

If you're a lawyer, the answer is . . . a resounding YES!

One thing for sure. It is about the time of Pinball Expo, Gary Flower moderated the Thursday night fireside chat. There seemed to be some fall out about that.

The recording is on Pinball News if anyone wants to listen.

LTG : )

A number of people have said they won't buy a JJP machine after reading this thread. I wonder how many backpedal when Pat's game comes out and it's awesome.

JJPinball is the real twitter for Jersey Jack Pinball

https://mobile.twitter.com/JJPinball

Hopefully if anyone does, they don't get crap for doing so.

People are allowed to change their minds.

There has been enough bad in this thread and I hope it doesn't extend a game or two into the future if someone decides to purchase a JJP pin.

LTG : )

Can I clone you, Lloyd?

Yep, pretty much.

The dude did manage to get a flock of pinside sheep behind him with torches though lol.

Basically, it seems like some people on this thread are arguing that it's not OK for someone to publicly share their opinion of a company's product and service unless it's the same as their experience. Especially if it's negative and they have established a "big voice" that may influence a lot of people. So all the reviews (positive or negative) on Amazon, Trip Adviser and YouTube or the editorial sections of newspapers are not a good thing for all of us. Sounds more like Russia or Cuba than America.

Weeeee....that was a fun spin

Can I go again?

He can share his opinion all he wants; I'm just not going to swallow it unquestioningly.

You say that like everyone else is.

It's great to share a different opinion but some are saying he was out-of-line to post his video or not give JJP every opportunity to make it right.

Not everyone... but some. Jack's 'fan club' are eating it up like chum in the sea Jack is a polarizing figure, but his company did make a good game...

How should I know?

Companies bully people all the time, depending on the advice they get from their counsel.

There is no villain here.

You are missing the point by a mile.

(slow down and really think about this):

We have a wealthy CUSTOMER who buys a $9,000 toy.

He is not a "pinball tech", or a lifelong collector. He's a month into the hobby.

He buys a brand new game for the family.

It has numerous problems right out of the box.

CUSTOMER is told by first tech that even though game is brand new, labor is not covered in any repair.

It does not matter if theses are simple problems or not - two techs can not get the game working on the phone, and at least 4 light boards need replacement.

Jack calls the CUSTOMER and berates him for "breaking the game".

CUSTOMER says he has had enough BS and returns game.

Alex is snide with now PRIOR CUSTOMER in public forum for 1000s to see.

-

There is no villain, just a majorly mishandled incident.

Lol. You think? It's an absolute mess is what it is! Kudos to Lloyd for understanding PR. What's funny is, he doesn't have a financial stake in the company.

Seriously, you guys (JJP) need to step your game up when it comes to PR, or you'll be selling used machines only in the near future!

Dude posts a review video..datapoint, throw it on the pile..
All the arguing ABOUT that post, while entertaining, doesn't really clear anything up. To me its just another review amongst many. Everything else is speculation, not fact. Don't make final decisions based on speculation. The only other real fact that I take away from this is that Lloyd is all class, all the time. And I know I never want to receive a note from him signed "Lloyd".

This goes both ways

There are events missing in your recollection.

- How exactly did Jack find out about the game and its issues?

- What did RZ do to the game before Jack called? Remember, we have only ONE SIDE of the story here

- What did RZ say to Jack or his techs prior to any phone call?

- What did RZ say to Jack during this phone call?

You also conveniently left out the part where Jack offered to solve the problem by sending a tech to fix the game. Your recount of events is quite biased.

Yes, and RZ was a complete dick to LLoyd in a public forum for 1000s to see. As we know from Alex, current behavior is a prime indicator of past performance. I'm betting better than 90% chance RZ was a dick to Jack at some point as well. Do you disagree this might be possible?

Sometimes the customer needs to be fired. In this case, I think JJP is better off without him.

Sure.

Come and get one in the yarbles, if you have any yarbles.

I didn't interpret any of his posts as being a dick to Lloyd, he seemed to be bothered by Alex and rightfully so.

Funnily enough, that's actually true. Every client is just another risk/reward decision. Plenty of very successful businesses pull customer lines all the time.

I have been reading this thread with interest, but I don't think anything new has been said for the last few pages. I would like to suggest we close this.

eh, nothing out of the ordinary here. No need to close.

Whether you agree with it or not this thread still represents a review from a now ex-customer and I'd rather keep threads like this open so people can decide for themselves on purchasing games from JJP. I still am in on the hobbit but it has been an eye opener for me and the one thing that stands out is if I get the hobbit is I would prefer to talk with Lloyd if issues arise.

I don't know everything but I'll always try to help. Anyone. Usually noon to midnight CST everyday.

Doesn't matter pm me here, email, VOIP phone. Doesn't even have to be a JJP pin. I've provided support for Williams/Bally and Stern pins sold by Pinball Sales ( Jack )

If anyone prefers just dealing with me. That is fine too. Might take a bit longer if I need to run by engineers or anything. But I'll do it.

I'll always be glad to help.

LTG : )

I'm pretty damn sure regardless of what is coved on the game, labor included, that if my game did not work when I got it home, that JJP would make every effort possible to correct my situation. That is the reality a lot of people are missing here. So then what is the real intent of this guys video??

Is there a documented case where JJP left someone out in the cold? You want to sell a game which had factory defects, fine, but why come here and blast the company? And don't say cuz Jack pissed in his cereal because we don't know how that conversation went down.

None of that matters.

You are so busy being defensive, you are still missing the entire point.

-

Forget pinball for a second and pick a new consumer product.

Ural Tech: Hello, Ural
Metallikduh: Hey I just uncrated my new Ural and the lights don't work, it's stuck in 2 wheel drive and it only runs for a minute before it stalls out.
U: Sounds like you need a new generator, lamp switch, and I'll put you to the next tech to figure out the drive.
M: Can you come tow this to the dealer?
U: You'll have to pay for repair labor and towing, because we don't cover that.
M: It's brand new!!! $9,000 and already I have to pay for labor?
U: Sir, this must be your first Russian motorcycle - labor is never included. We can send you parts for 6 months.
M: But it's brand new!!! And I see on the internet, problem with the lights is widespread!
U: Hey they use these things to deliver mail in Siberia. They are built tough. Easy for a good mechanic to service.
Ural Tech 2: Sounds like you need a new trans, did you try and drive it?
M: Yes, but it would not stay running. I tightened the battery posts.
U2: Oh, you should not mess with the wiring.
M: I did not mess with it, I tightened the battery posts.
U2: Ummm, this is bad.
Ural of America's Owner: Hey, I hear ya gota problem there.
M: Yeah, brand new and already I've got all these problems.
UAO: Well, what the hell were you messing with all those wires for in the first place?
M: Wha??? I just tightened the battery posts.
UAO: Yeah, you got's to keep your hands outta where they don't belong, kapesh? Ya go around breaking our bikes, then callin' cuz stuff's broke. Ya know, ya can'ts complain if ya did it yourself.
M: Really??? It was broken right out of the crate.
UAO: Sure, the moment you started unpluggin' all they wires there....
M: You know, I think I'm going to call my credit card company and run a chargeback. I REALLY think I messed up buying one of your bikes.
UAO: Wadaya mean chargeback??? I tells you somthin', even though you broke it, I'lla send my boy over and tow that thing in - how's that sound?
M: Yeah, no thanks, I'm outta here.....
UAO: Hey, don' ya goa postin' your experience on those internets either, cuz my mechanics, ya know, they are gona be snarky with youse and put youse down - cuz you don't know nuthin' 'bout fixin' bikes....

In no other consumer industry would anyone be expected to buy a brand new, very broken $9,000 item and then be treated like a jerk.

ural-motorcycle.jpg

No one comes to the internet to change their mind.

Good grief

This is a quote from my Springfree trampoline warranty that I bought the kids at Xmas..

"This limited warranty does not cover expenses related to on-site labor, travel, assembly or disassembly or other charges associated with the repair or replacement of covered components."

Did said trampoline cost 9k? Does it have a history of product defects?

So if you opened the box and 4 of the springs were overstretched, and the decking was frayed and sparse - what would you do?

Call and wait for parts?

Return it for a better model?

Get berated on the trampoline forums for not having extra springs around already?

The only reason I post on the internet is to tell people how wrong they are.

someone is wrong internet.png

Just my submission to the point that labor not being covered is no surprise. Sticking to facts here.

Lol. I must say, you are very good at it.

There are trampoline forums....cool!

Checkmate mr trampoline!

tramampoline.png

come on the guy spent 9k on a pinball. That's like buying a new Camaro and the engine not working or the wheels locking up. The thing "should" work 100%. There are exceptions but they should be far and few between. I have shipped pins and delivered pins that have bounced down the road and have been 20 plus years old. Let me say most of them have worked 100% when plugged in and if there was an issue it was very minor. I feel for JJP a little by implementing a new platform but when you are a business owner you need to bite your tongue and so do the employees. I guarantee there are a few customers that have been lost due to this thread

Specifically, if one spring fails, do they all fail?

I'm not going to get into the he said, she said side of the debate as I am not privy to what the actual conversations were. IF it was me and I was being calculated in "cutting off my nose to spite my face" I would have accepted the pinball tech offer on JJP's dollar and then swapped it for a ST (or Russian bike with luxury sidecar), if Jack pissed me off enough of course. Does appear that there could have been a lot of red mist fogging the details from both sides though regardless of who fired the first shot, IMHO.

Also agree that, in public and face-to-customer face, the customer is always right.

I treat this as just another, valid, data input however like my golf handicap the best and worst scores are discarded.

This thread was made to show a review on JJP WOZ. Seeing that the review was removed maybe this thread has ran its course?

tHiS tHrEaD iS gEtTiNg BoRiNg .

Wow, degenerated to name calling? Discussion's over. Amazing how polarizing JJP is for some people.

Certainly no one deserves an out of box experience like this, and I know and can empathize, as my WOZ died after 6 hours...my first NIB, and it took 6 weeks to get to a working game. But I am thrilled to own. (I know it didnt leave the factory like this, I trust inspection)

One thing to remember is we are conditioned to expect certain aspects as consumers.

Other consumer goods of this value or other value are hard to compare because the global sales
are in such large numbers. There is money to support all the services that are expected, and expense back into the product.
In this case, Sure, Jack could have set up 50 state service centers or techs, but the cost back to the
product, based on units sold would be prohibitive.

I see this in every aspect of business I am involved in or consult.

As customers, we grab all the best aspects of businesses and transfer those expectations to other purchases.

Amazon...two day free shipping.....Why cant everyone have this? I know people now expect this.
but we all know this costs something and is paid for somewhere. (not too long ago it took 6 months to get a hammer!)
Support....Every company should be staffed with people like Lloyd. So we expect this.
The 10-12 Support calls I did this week, from Ebay, Paypal, Amazon, CC, Banks, Telephone,
cable, Rakuten, Insurance....not a single one could hold a candle to Lloyd.
But we all want the best.
Price: With the Internet, we all want the lowest Price.
Quality: We all want "The Best!"

I had my first ever $55 steak over the Holidays! Amazing! Teams of waiters, free Chocolate Truffles,
Insane service.....but, I paid for that, at $100 per person.
It is hard for me too take that experience and expect that at Outback, for $25.

This is in no way a defensive statement to this issue, or intended to show any disrespect to anyone.
If so, my humblest apologies....

Its more they way of the world today, with what we want, and what we expect.

It is really hard in any business today to do all of these things together, and at the same time.
I marvel at those that can...be still worth mentioning that transferring our expectations, especially in the area of customer service is tricky. Even today, Comcast had an announcement.

Everything costs, and it must come from the revenue of the sale.
Sell 50,000 WOZ units, and different experiences should be in place.

Sell a few million iphones, and while they have had many bugs, and complaints...millions still
go.

and while we have threads about what it costs to build a game or a board....The cost of infrastructure
and all aspects of business is staggering.

Does this buyer deserve better? Sure.....Do we all with everything we buy?...no doubt.
But from the business side, and I am a small guy, but have had several companies, factories, national sales staff etc...Its hard.

We are all people, but held to a very high litmus, especially today, with the consumer aspect driving
the economy.