There's a good reason for that... because the video has been removed, under threat of legal action via email. Chickenshit bullying tactics speak volumes to me.

I expected issues with a new platform in pinball but the way this whole woz thing went down and is still going down is just...well...embarrassing. I want a woz someday. The woz supporters are blinded and the haters are stern in their views...ha said stern...I don't care how much crap is fed to JJP and his employees, they have to take the high road! I felt the 6500 dollar price was crazy high, now look at the prices. They will get it right but the games from both sides of the fence are leaving me jaded....

That's an assumption; we don't know who emailed what to who. For all we know a third party emailed some helpful advice.

That being said, it would be really interesting to ask Jack at a show what he knew regarding the message sent in this case face to face in public at a show...

When people are performing a task they are not suited for (or good at) problems occur.

Its also the reason most large corporation have terms and conditions for employes conduct in public or social media. Its foolish and tacky assigning blame to a customer privately or in public that just made a major purchase.

Exactly, some of you guys are just plain haters of JJP, with NO PROOF at all and you jump in and start chopping off heads!

Your angry because your game took to long to get made? I understand.

Your upset because your game has problems and how dare it? I still understand

Your irate because "of a mystery phone call, you haven't heard " ? Get real.

Alex annoys me as well, but it's silly to let some internet loudmouth dictate what games I own. WOZ is an incredible game; why skip out on it just because of one JJP volunteer? If you get one and it breaks, you could always ask for Lloyd. I understand passing on WOZ if the gameplay isn't to one's liking, but Alex is a nutty reason...

How long should he have to wait to have 7 pins in his collection? 6 months? 12 months? 2 years???

If he died a month from now, would he be happier if he had one game or seven?

What about the customers who buy WOZ from that 75th anniversary catalog? They certainly don't have any pinball experience. Do you think they won't call their credit card company in a minute when a brand new game does not work, and they are told that labor is not covered?

I have clients that have 20 game collections and don't know how to get the glass off.

If a rubber breaks, it sits broken until I'm in town to fix it.

Should they only own a single game until they "learn a little"?

Should my 90 year old customer, Ronnie, not have his game because he does not have the dexterity to hold a soldering iron any longer?

No way ! It's so far over the line clearly you see how many are disgusted by him. I buy a boatload of games. I can't tell you how times games I swear I won't buy I find I wake up and order on a whim.
But it will never happen with JJP and Alex is the number 1 reason.
The day they get smart and fire him is the day my friend Buddy knows I will write him a check.
Lloyd is the shite and despite hurdles I do see Jack making some good calls like the MMr refund he just did.
On a side note to the other poster most of us have seen the JJP letters threatening to sue in the past so yeah it's an easy leap to think that's the case.

We don't need to hear the phone call, just look at the public responses from Alex on this thread, and now think of the responses that were probably made in private.

This isn't a court of law where we need to hear the phone call.

This is the court of public opinion - where you want to make your company look good, look compassionate, look like you give a shit....

I honestly have not, but I have heard multiple references to issues like that over time; I find the idea of stifling discussion based on that offensive, as I previously noted.

I just try to give the benefit of the doubt, but given the choice between the thinking this whole incident was just made up, vs. something that was poorly handled (and continues to be poorly handled) I have already made my decision.

Thumbs down for JJP in this case; I hope I am allowed to form an opinion still.

This is more heated than a price thread.

What I don't understand is why are people bashing the buyer for voicing his experience? This should be a place people can come to do so without being called an idiot, especially by employees of the company he had a bad experience with. Remember he didn't register an account to simply load his video.

Also, it's a shame he felt he had to pull the video. There could only be one reason for that and that would be JJP lawyered up. Are they that threatened? Shameless IMO.

To me it says a lot that the guy threw away a grand to not bother with the initial problems and future. If the CEO treats you bad and you can take the financial hit, why not decline the free tech visit after all that? That's what PinChroma keeps harping on. I understand why not. I know it is an extreme example, but it reminds why Lamborghini exists.

This is an open forum that Jack monitors, he could easily come and defend himself. We have to look at what we know, the guy spent 9 grand on a pinball machine, it arrived with several problems, Lloyd tried for hours to help the guy fix the machine yet a resolution wasn't found. We can guess the guy never talked to Jack or that he did, doesn't matter but what does throw up a red flag for me and makes me hesitate on my hobbit purchase is that the customer was offended enough to return the machine that was supposed to be a family Christmas gift and take it a step further takes a 1k - 2k loss on that machine. So by that reasoning I'm gonna assume he talked to Jack and Jack pissed him off enough to want the machine gone at a loss.

I'm not a hater of JJP and currently have money on one of their machines. Another red flag is the way Alex has handled it on this forum.

I wonder when there will be another Hobbit update?

Yeah I am far from a hater too, but I have 7k of my 8k into the Hobbit pre-order and am left wondering, what am I in for here? I don't see me backing out due to one bad post, but it does give one pause. The guy who made the video comes off as fairly intelligent, I sure as hell hope I don't get a lemon.

The excuse I keep coming up with in my head for how the issue may have derailed is, maybe the guy said something during all this about how he does these video previews and tried to use that as leverage to get better service and maybe that pissed Jack off and set him down the wrong path on the mystery phone call. I am of course just making that up for my own comfort, total speculation.

Wasn't hours.

I can't speak for that person. Or his reasons. I had one a week ago was so upset over his Toto breaking, even though we had a new one to him in two days. That he claimed he disassembled the machine and was going to throw it out.

Who knows why people do things ? I don't try to analyze them. I try to help fix their game.

LTG : )

Wow. Just wow. You can't make stuff like that up.

Great material

i'll tell you what, i've read the last couple pages of posts on this thread and some of the responses on here just make me absolutely sick to my stomach.

1) Just because i've only had pinball machines in my house for 3 months does not make me some sort of stumbling, bumbling idiot that doesn't understand the basic concepts of how things work. I read post after post of statements saying how i don't know what the hell i'm doing with a pinball machine when NOT A SINGLE ONE OF YOU knows anything about me or my skill level with a machine. You all just assume that i can't figure things out on my own and learn how to fix things... or another fact that i have an uncle that fixes these things as a hobby and has been doing it for the last 8 years, i even have a video of me visiting his house and showing one of his machines from two years ago..

I own 7 pinball machines, i set each and every one of them up by myself and i've had to fix things on several of them, from minor issues to other issues that took more time. I've installed LEDs, Mods, fixed things that shook loose during shipping, etc etc etc. With all that said, i am still learning and there were a few issues with oz that i could have spent a couple minutes reading up and fixed myself such as the drop target getting the ball stuck, and maybe 1 or 2 other minor issues that happened.. but with all the major problems going on with the machine i could have cared less about focusing in on those other issues, those were the last things on my mind that week when dealing with this situation... who cares about a ball getting stuck on a drop target when the machine isn't booting up or working properly????

2) I have also read post after post of people calling me a liar, saying i made up the whole story or had some other motive for what happened... seriously what in the world is wrong with you people that you are that delusional ? I was able to back up everything i have said, i defended every single accusation from the first post to the last, I showed a 12 minute video of the situation before i was forced to pull it down, and lloyd was the tech i talked to on the phone for 2 hours, he has read everything i said and he didn't once come on the post and say i made anything up or state that i said anything that was false. All the people that are accusing me of making stuff up, like pinchura whatever his name is, had absolutely no contact with me at all, and i spent half of this thread battling him from start to finish, and he's a tech that is suppose to be representing this company. I was certain jack himself would get on here and say all sorts of bs to make me look bad, but that never happened.. he had his little monkeys on here trying there best to do it for him.

3) The FACT of the matter is, i was willing to lose over 1,000 dollars on a broken machine for the swap that was done because there were that many major problems with it and because jack himself called me and was pissed off at me for having another one of his busted machines. I am not some sort of millionaire, i don't have 1,000 dollars to just flush down the toilet, so any reasonable, sane, intelligent person would have to come to some sort of conclusion that i would have to have a pretty damn good reason for taking that kind of a hit a few days after receiving something that i really wanted.

But again, for those that are just so stubborn they can't accept that as a target point or just want to try to read more into the situation than is actually there... once again, after being blasted on the phone by the owner himself I DID NOT WANT TO KEEP THE MACHINE, and i also didn't think it would be fair to stick it to the seller by forcing a refund because it wasn't their fault the thing didn't work. If i wanted to be a jerk about it i could have forced a refund through paypal, but the fact that i ate the cost speaks VOLUMES on the situation itself doesn't it? If i was some money hungry jerk, or some dude trying to take down JJP i certainly would have forced that refund instead of eating it.. but the fact that i ate and the way jack treated me compelled me to make that video and ultimately post on here because it was a very poor situation that i felt needed to get out there.

What in the hell would i POSSIBLY benefit from in making up ANY part of this story? I KNEW it was going to piss off the people at jersey jack because it is there broken product, wishy washy warranty and poor customer service from jack himself that led to this situation... but i've never seen so much BS posted against me on any situation that i've ever been in from so many different people that are suppose to be apart of this great pinball community, one guy zentron is even local to me. Makes me ashamed to even be apart of this community when a person can't speak their opinion on a situation that really happened when i have been nothing but truthful about the whole thing. Almost half of the posts i've read on here have been trying to make me look like some sort of fool, or accusing me of things that just didn't happen, or twisting or spinning the story in directions that shouldn't even matter to begin with.

4) I don't want some lame apology from anyone at jersey jack at this point, they got their money and i lost mine and some fruitless apology at this point isn't going to change any of that. Jack could fly to my house with a dozen roses and a box of chocolates and it is not going to change what happened here. As i stated in the video that is no longer around I would have been more than willing to at least attempt to have a tech take a look at the NUMEROUS problems this machine had and the only reason that didn't happen is because of the phone call from Jack. I was never "mad" that i had a broken machine, as some of you have pointed out time and time again, i didn't get "mad" about the situation until jack blasted me on the phone for a reason that is still unknown. What all of you FAILED to understand, which was very clearly pointed out in the video that is no longer up, this was a christmas present for my family. My son, wife, and even mother played this machine and all enjoyed it when it worked. So how fricking hard do you think it was for me to tell everyone we had to get rid of it, i basically had to take away a christmas present from a 5 year old that didn't understand the situation. My wife certainly wasn't happy i had just lost 1,000 dollars on the whole thing, that's definitely not an easy situation to explain, the whole thing made me look like a fool because i lost so much money on it.

5) You people just keep trying to change the story, add your own spin or version to it, when it was right here in black and white the entire time. There was never some loophole, or missing information, or a he-said she-said situation that would make any of this swing in a different direction.

Last, but not least, there is no doubt in my mind that pinchura and JJP could possibly get ahold of the busted machine, replace the 4 boards that had malfunctioned and possibly fix whatever else they could find that went wrong with that machine, and then show a video if it working in a week or two. Heck there was a point that the machine actually worked for me for a couple hours. They could come back on here and say that i made the whole thing up and there is nothing i could do to counter it at that point, because its my word against theres and none of you on here know who i am beyond what i have shared.

But even after receiving 6 or 7 positive inbox messages from some very nice members on here it doesn't change the countless nasty posts i've read from the other half of you reading this, and that part of this community is enough to make me sick to the point that I don't plan on returning very often unless i absolutely need to post about some issue i could possibly have to deal with in the future in regards to one of my machines. I am way to busy of a person anyways to sit around here on a regular basis, and that is not a knock against any of you that enjoy posting and enjoy being apart of this community, but count me out.

PEACE OUT FOR REALZ THIS TIME.

Pretty much insulting, no?

You could have kept the machine if you let JJP send out a tech to fix it. Really simple and you wouldn't have eaten a grand.

Jack shouldn't have berated you but he did offer you a solution.

Reviewzone,

You have to realize that no matter what you post, some people are not going to believe you. And some people will. On a forum this large, it's simply the case. It's just the way it works.

Especially on an issue as hot button as JJP and WOZ. This is a topic that goes way beyond your video and personal experience. This has been going on since (and before) I started reading this forum close to three years ago.

My recommendation would be to simply ignore this thread and move on. No one ever wins these arguments. (Or at least no one ever admits they were wrong) Ever.

But plenty of people make fools of themselves anyway.

If Jack does not fire Alex and hire Vid instantly after reading that post, then Jack is an absolute moron.

I'm 100% serious here.

That is how it's done!!!

What WOZ owner is not going to believe him?

My WOZ, it had light board issues.

My friend's WOZ, it had light board issues.

Common problem as far as the game goes.

Id say he is justified after the way he was treated. Just my opinion.

I believe that the WOZ had issues.
It can happen.
I believe that the contact with Jack went not as he wanted it. I saw Jack as another person from the contact I had so far with him. Perhaps he had a bad day. All we have here is one side of the medal.
And we still don't know what exactly was spoken there.

But in the end I still can not believe that offering a free technician to fix everything can be called BAD customer service! For me it's the opposite.

So, you drop $9000 on a machine and it malfunctions out of the box

- different issues occur when others are seemingly rectified
- sometimes won't boot
- lights malfunction
- Modes start incorrectly, etc, too numerous to list
- you've had it for days. It's worked 2 hours (sans functioning lights)
- phone tech calls can't fix it
- you're told even though you didn't cause any issues, labor to fix your new $9000 machine is your responsibility
- you raise the issue up the ladder
- through the distributor then to JJP
- owner then calls you, says you contributed to the problem by messing around under the playfield etc and is generally not nice and you're shocked

So you're sitting on the phone, you think of all the issues you've had on you shiny new $9000 toy which by now, you have little faith in build quality. Now you're in this aggravated, reluctant call from the man at the top of the operation. He offers to send a tech free of charge only after he gives you a piece of his mind first. No olive branch call, here. Rather it's a "you're making this a headache for me.

You accept that offer then you're "all in". You've got a small window to ship back to the distributor and do a trade for another pin. You bring a tech in, then that's it. You're accepting the machine, the potential issues and expressing faith in the company.

He chose no.

(Hopefully my rundown above is accurate as I've watched it from the beginning)

Why had he only "a small window"? If I buy something that has flaws and doesn't work right I give the company or the distributor a small window to fix it or I want my money back. And not the other way around.

And this I still don't understand, why would it be unfair to the seller? The customer has the right that what he gets works. If it doesn't ,why should it be unfair to force the money back?
"If these issues were minor i wouldn't have swapped out the machine and lost over 1,000 dollars getting a Star Trek premium if i felt like these were issues that could be simply fixed with a tech visit. I honestly believe that machine either has a very serious electrical problem, some sort of power issue, or the computer itself that i never opened up wasn't working correctly."

I don't know how the customer rights in the USA are working. But why is there only a small window and a window with a 1k Dollar loss? Isn't there a period after the deal, he can give it back and his money returned without giving reasons why? That's how it works here in germany. The only problem would be if the problems of the product are caused by misbehavior of the customer.
Then I would understand the small window. But he stated that he didn't do anything wrong.
Or was he afraid that after Jacks call, the company or the technician that they would send to him could blame hin for damaging the game?
Only that would be for me the point when I would see the small window and take the loss.

Generally here in the US with a pinball machine, you can't just "return it". If it's shipped, you're paying shipping costs as well. This was shipped 600 miles. If you could just return it, this thread wouldn't have existed and he wouldn't be out $1,000.

The exception is buying certain pins on Amazon.com that are offered as "Prime". I did this once. It was a Stern "The Pin" bought for me as a gift. The drop targets malfunctioned. You couldn't open it up to service. I called Stern tech support. They told me to just send it back (they would've done this regardless of Amazon's return policy or not, supposedly). A shipping company came to my house and took it back, no questions asked.

Ah ok. Thanks!

reviewzonehd was in a bit of a hole as he entered this thread:

-Some folks just have a natural bias to JJP WOZ 75th owners. Maybe its because they are $9,000 and they can't afford it, maybe they purchased the Emerald LE who knows..

-Being in the hobby 3 months and a popular YouTube personality it wasn't advantageous to make a youtube video slamming the product and the company. Yes, I understand the video wasn't posted in reviewzonehd's popular youtube channel, but regardless this can and will piss people off..

-Someone else posted the video on behalf of reviewzonehd and yes I know that person apologized but that doesn't mean this didn't occur.

-reviewzonehd didn't engage the issues in this forum, maybe he thought pinside was down on christmas? (ok, bad joke, sorry)

JJP is a multimillion dollar company and sold thousands of WOZ pins, have presold thousands of TH and have one of the best game designers making their third pin. Regardless of some of the negativity and issues they've experienced, there is no denying they are a force to be reckoned with and have been successful.

The more I think about this thread, the angrier I get. I've had problems with products in the past, but the last thing I do is think to myself, "Hey! I should pick up a camera and YouTube what a piece of shit this is!" Now, I get that that's what this guy does (if it's for a living, I don't know how he does it and can afford a 9k machine), but raking Jack's product over the coals because of your own personal problems was a little out of line. And I'm not sure that anybody who would actually do what this guy did was as cool and calm on the phone with Jack as he's having us believe.

As an early adopter with WOZ, I had tons of those light board issues. My game didn't play right for 3 months. I didn't give up after 5 hours - I was on the phone with tech support to the point that we were on a first-name basis and they recognized me at the factory. And eventually, they sent a tech to my house to completely overhaul my machine with new boards and a new power supply. My machine has had no problems since, and it's the machine everybody gravitates to in the house.

I feel bad for reviewzonehd. Not because of his problems with the machine, but because he's clearly impatient, and as such, lost out on owning what would have been the best machine in his collection.

Someone cancels their TH order because Alex helps JJP.
I keep my order for TH because Lloyd helps JJP.
Glass half empty/glass half full..... I'm a half full kind of guy. Plus, to me Lloyds help is worth so much more than any discontent for Alex.

I agree with you 100%

Just saw this thread. WOW, what a goat rodeo.

Seems to me like some people shuodl probably not own a pinball machine. The guy with the video does not even know the right terminology, even basic stuff and honestly should not be buying a commericial machine for his own house. I am continually amazed when anyone buys a pinball machine, let alone multiple games, and has no clue how to actually work on them. IMHO, the ability to work on them (or pay someone else to do so) is a requirement of the hobby.

The guy in the video is a knob that over pays and then pisses and moans.

I agree that it sucks when any game/large purchase does not come as expected, but I have found that most times it can easily be resolved on the back end well before needing to make a monetized video for youtube to blast the company.

EVERY pinball machine has or will have issues at some point. MHO is dont buy one unless you are willing to learn how to do basic repairs. I woudl say this is a customer that nobody needs in the long run.

Alex cops a lot of flak for how he treats people, but those people, who I'm sure do have a fair grievance of some degree, do tend to be the ones who we see bring on a public fight. None of us is witness to what must be many hours spent with people on the phone who probably end up completely satisfied. I will certainly withold any judgement until I experience it first hand.

Call me crazy, and perhaps I missed this in all the previous posts, but shouldn't the buyer have been screaming at the distributor?

I would have assumed the first contact would have been with the distributor and the responsibility of making the game right initially falls on them. Maybe Automated doesn't work like that? Dunno...

Regardless, very interesting read.

This is just silly, how does one learn to work on a pinball machine if they don't own one? Id venture to say that the problems this guy experienced with woz 50% of this forum couldn't fix, woz is a completely new animal that you would have to own to probably start to understand how to fix it. The guy also said he has a general knowledge of minor repairs. The machine was not fixed on a 2 hour call with a technician.

The bottom line is for me, a tech could get pissy with me but not the owner of the company that I paid 9 grand to, its uncalled for and unprofessional.

This is the heart of the issue. Hell, he could've made a much worse video, one which showed all the problems. Instead, it was 12 min of relatively normal gameplay with voiceover. The only thing malfunctioning was 80% of the lights (some pinsiders did not even notice). Make a vid of all the issue and it's much worse. Hard to unseen a malfunctioning machine. Easier to forget words.

The bottom line is a customer with $9,000 is a customer, regardless of experience level. Newbie or veteran, you should treat them the same as a company.

What I've learned from this thread:

Nobody who doesn't already own a pinball machine should be allowed to buy a pinball machine.

But 50% of the forum CAN fix it...and the beauty of Pinside is you only need ONE person who knows what you're talking about or has had the same problems as you, and you're halfway to fixing it. I fell in love with Pinside because of all the help I've gotten on my machines - the first of which was WOZ.

Better for us...in before the lock!

U dude R an -post removed-

_{Post edited by moderator: pls try 2 kEp things nIs. ther R othR ways of disagreeing w SOME1.}

I agree with this 100%.

I feel for the guy that bought this game. 9K is a HUGE chunk of change for a game...and it surely is a disappointment when it doesn't work out of the box. I get that. Anyone on here would be lying if they claim they wouldn't feel the same way. I also don't think the guy is lying about his frustrations and inability to get the machine up and going. We've all been there with games, when a problem arises and the solution seems impossible to find. It's enough to drive you insane and hours of patience can quickly turn to aggravation.

The video, as I stated earlier, just comes across as ticky-tack. It really doesn't help his cause at all. Pointing out a stuck ball in an area that is easily correctable...harping on other small issues. If he's willing to have a video shot of a stuck ball on the drop target (with "Stuck Ball" flashing on the screen)...a problem that takes about 2 min. to correct...then I immediately start to wonder if he had any logic behind "shaking wires" under the playfield.

It's impossible to tell what really happened between this customer and JJ. The guy that created the video must understand that you can't fire something like that off and not have folks (especially hobbyists) wonder if he's credible. And I think this highlights one of the reasons that pinball has been eliminated from locations over the last 20-25 years: Pinball machines require a ton of maintenance. They can be hard to trouble shoot -- even new games. Imagine if a business operator had bought this machine with intentions of making money off it.

Hopefully manufacturers of games will provide solid support to home users going forward. It's going to be necessary to keep pinball alive.

Reviewzone definitely seems like a hothead.. wow, look at the book he wrote here! If he acted that way with Jack I could see the guy from Jersey getting short with him. But he still tried to fix the game. If the customer cannot be walked through the procedures, the only other way is to send a tech. Bottom line: refusing onsite service and selling for 1000 loss was a totally boneheaded move and makes me question everything else about the story. Especially since it's still one-sided. Any word yet from Automated on this "machine from hell?"

I've found stuck balls can be corrected with having your playfield set to the proper pitch. Another thing I learned on Pinside: 6.5 degrees is optimal. I wonder what his pitch was set at.

And let's be honest: He complained about the scarecrow hay-rustling noise. That's really splitting hairs.

Sadly, it's just proof that the Church of JJP is still alive and well.

Also, there's a little screw on the drop target assembly. Turn it, and you can adjust the height of the drop target when it is in the down position...do that, and no ball will ever get stuck there.

Also, he complained about the lock bar. My WOZ also had this "issue"...but after thinking it through, I tried gently applying pressure on the top of the lock bar as I moved the lever and it easily locks on.

<blockquote
Post edited by moderator: pls try 2 kEp things nIs. ther R othR ways of disagreeing w SOME1.

LMAO

So what?

Just because these issues could supposedly be easily fixed, that means that he shouldn't share the fact that these issues existed out of the box?