(Topic ID: 201253)

Interesting or Frustrating Repair? You decide.

By Eddie

6 years ago


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  • 31 posts
  • 20 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Schwaggs
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#1 6 years ago

So I'm called by the operator to get the back box lit on his location Roadshow .

The only background I received was that the lights were out and that 2 techs were sent to have a look on two occasions and both were confounded.

When i got to the machine and removed the translight I saw that the insert panel has all bulbs replaced with LEDs and that only about 5 were barely lit basically just ghosting.

The first order was to check for a burned connector but it was in perfect shape as were, at least visually, the pins.

Next I checked the related fuse by removing it and also tested the fuse holders continuity. Both were good, which I figured, due to the dimly lit leds and the playfield's GI being lit.

I then checked to see which strings that the dimly lit bulbs were on and it turned out they were on the same string.

All of the stings wires and sockets looked in perfect shape no burns exposed wires etc.

I thought that maybe the wires in the non working strings may have come loose in the connector even though they appeared very tight and clean.

I used my IDC tool to punch them in tighter and there was no change.

Next I broke out the DMM and tested pins voltages which appeared correct ugh.

I then swapped the j120 and j121 connectors as the j120 was the playfield GI and J121 being the panel insert just in case there may have been a bad trace on the reverse side of the PDB. When I made the connection swap the Playfield GI remained lit and the insert was the same with the 5 dimly lit leds. (Note the connectors were installed in reverse when I got to the machine)

So with all of these tests I decided to test continuity from the IDC connector to the first sockets on every string and what do you know My DMM batteries died ugh

Without the DMM I decided to make a visual of the insert wire harness as there may have been breaks somewhere in the middle that I could not see. Took about 20mins to remove the Harness and with a visual it looked brand new.

Stumped and getting pissed that an insert GI was getting the better of me I thought {Let me pull a dimly lit led and put it into a non lit led socket)

With the swap out of a dim with a non working led, the dim LED lit in the different socket and again only dimly.

I then swapped it out with another dead LED and it lit again and just as dim as usual.

I then swapped a dead led into a known working socket and it didnt light!!!!!!!!!

I then said to myself are you f,,,ing kidding ? Can all of the Leds just be bad?

I installed a new LED and it lit perfectly. I did the same with random sockets and all of the new LEDs lit right up.

So it turned out that the entire insert had Blown LEDs what the Hell! When does that ever happen? Not only that they all looked brand new.

What a huge waste of time going over all of those steps when it was a matter of all of the LEDs being blown, of course it didnt help that my DMM batteries died as that would have saved the 20 min wire harness removal.

One note is that the LEDs were odd and of a kind I had not seen before. The "Bulb" portion was very thin almost but not quit tube shaped. They were not Cointakers or Ablaze I have no clue where the operator got them from but I will ask him.

So 2 other techs failed to figure out the issue and were stumped and I can see how, as nothing made sense.

Anyone else come across this type of situation?

#2 6 years ago

interesting! Thx for sharing!

I often find the most frustrating problems end up being the simplest thing

#3 6 years ago

Some brands/types of LEDs do not hold up well when operated 12 hours a day or worse, 24/7.

Sellers are going to blame it on a too high voltage or a power surge. I am going to blame it on poor quality LEDs.

There are already some threads about it.

#4 6 years ago

I have purchased led bulbs, don't know the brand, from Marco specialties and put them in my huo games, and after about 1 year the leds would get dimmer and dimmer until they didn't look like they were on.
Like any electronic device, they will ware out.

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from wdennie:

Like any electronic device, they will ware out.

No, electronics shouldn't "wear out".

Some boards/devices/bulbs just use incredibly cheap components that fail way too soon.

With the properly rated components and proper heat dissipation, components and electronics should last for years or decades.

#6 6 years ago

KISS method always wins

#7 6 years ago

No how can you say that, haven't you ever replaced your TV?
Ok maybe wear out isn't the right word, how about fail?
And how would you explain them getting dimmer?
Fail would imply that they would work continually correct until they don't, hence fail.

#8 6 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

No, electronics shouldn't "wear out".

Everything wears out, eventually. But LEDs should damn well last way longer than incandescents, and a lot of those are still going 50 years later

#9 6 years ago

Many of the lighting devices we are getting from China are of very poor quality and/or, are being over driven (past the manufacturers recommendations) to get maximum light output. Driving an LED this way puts it at risk for even the slightest increase of input voltage. Pinball's have very dirty power due to how the transformer reacts to instantaneous loads like energizing flipper coils. GI circuits are not regulated and vary greatly based on the line voltage level at the outlet and varying factors inside the game.

I ordered some Candelabra base 120VAC lamps for my porch light from China. These were the kind where multiple surface mount LEDs were soldered to PCB along the outside and the top (Similar to our "Flash Lamp" LEDs but 10X the size. After only a couple of months, one was completely out and the other had a few LEDs only flashing on and off (Like you have seen the retrofitted traffic lights do around town). I replaced them with US bought (not saying they weren't made in China too!) style with the Element sticks (like old Edison lamps) and they have been burning brightly for many months now.

#10 6 years ago

Everything wears out, eventually. But LEDs should damn well last way longer than incandescents, and a lot of those are still going 50 years later

Quoted from zacaj:Everything wears out, eventually. But LEDs should damn well last way longer than incandescents, and a lot of those are still going 50 years later

I agree! cheap components.

11
#11 6 years ago

That's why I have always the GI test tool with good old incandescents with me. No surprises for me.
GI #1-5.jpgGI #1-5.jpg

#12 6 years ago

Shameless plug, I have a light issue driving me nuts if you're looking for another challenge!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/earthshaker-instititute-light-out

#14 6 years ago

Wow, what are the odds of all the leds being bad. I feel your pain !

#15 6 years ago

would an over-voltage from say a 50 volt line blow all the lamps at once?

drop a screwdriver & bridge a couple fuse clips would do it wouldn't it ?

#16 6 years ago

I had the same problem with fish tales. I was using the comet 2 led frosted. Brand new and they were all dim or didnt work. After testing like you did, i said f it and tried a different led by comet. Sure as shit it worked perfectly. I email comet and was told they were getting reports of these 2 leds frosted being defective. They suggested a single smd frosted comfort bright and shipped me out replacements the next day on them. The new batch arrived and have been flawless. The moral is all leds are not made the same.

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from SUPERBEE:

Wow, what are the odds of all the leds being bad. I feel your pain !

Exactly

Quoted from shovelhed:

I had the same problem with fish tales. I was using the comet 2 led frosted. Brand new and they were all dim or didnt work. After testing like you did, i said f it and tried a different led by comet. Sure as shit it worked perfectly. I email comet and was told they were getting reports of these 2 leds frosted being defective. They suggested a single smd frosted comfort bright and shipped me out replacements the next day on them. The new batch arrived and have been flawless. The moral is all leds are not made the same.

How ironic you had this issue as I just found out that the LEDs were Comet LEDs the frosted cool white.

http://www.cometpinball.com/product-p/1ledbullet.htm

Not only that they were installed less then 2 months prior to all failing.

The GI and insert LEDs were all cointaker.

Once again a lesson for operators going cheap costs more in the end.

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from Eddie:

Once again a lesson for operators going cheap costs more in the end.

I have the 2SMD frosted in the majority of games I have out. Many for 4plus years now and they look great still.

The 2SMD warm white or sunlight look great, hold up very well, and are cost effective IME.

#19 6 years ago

That is crazy. Thanks for sharing!

#20 6 years ago

My guess is one of the other bulb components in the LED body was bad, such as the dropping resistor...not the SMT led component itself. It's possible that the LEDs were not even made for pinball machines at all. I like to use known good incandescent bulbs to troubleshoot problems like these, since that is what the pin was originally designed to use.

#21 6 years ago

Almost sounds like 12v LEDS for cars. Maybe he found a good bulk deal and didn't realize you need 6v versions.

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I have the 2SMD frosted in the majority of games I have out. Many for 4plus years now and they look great still.
The 2SMD warm white or sunlight look great, hold up very well, and are cost effective IME.

Same here except I use 1smd in inserts. All from comet. I don't recall having one go bad but one did it was extremely rare. I don't know why comet even sells the cheaper junk bulbs. They don't seem to hold up well and not that bright.

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I have the 2SMD frosted in the majority of games I have out. Many for 4plus years now and they look great still.
The 2SMD warm white or sunlight look great, hold up very well, and are cost effective IME.

The two styles I have had issues with are the ones made with two discrete LEDs (not SMD) and the bullet resin type. Both fade away when used for GI and operated for any length of time.

The single SMD and 2 SMD seem to hold up well.

#24 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Some brands/types of LEDs do not hold up well when operated 12 hours a day or worse, 24/7.

I feel like that completely defeats one of the main reasons people pay the premium price for LEDs: Long life. I think I read someplace that what causes solid state components to "wear out" is impurities that are introduced to the doping process when they're annealed.

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

That's why I have always the GI test tool with good old incandescents with me. No surprises for me.

I know what Im building this weekend...

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

I know what Im building this weekend...

I'm guessing it's something without any leds in it

#27 6 years ago
Quoted from Eddie:

So I'm called by the operator to get the back box lit on his location Roadshow .
The only background I received was that the lights were out and that 2 techs were sent to have a look on two occasions and both were confounded.
When i got to the machine and removed the translight I saw that the insert panel has all bulbs replaced with LEDs and that only about 5 were barely lit basically just ghosting.
The first order was to check for a burned connector but it was in perfect shape as were, at least visually, the pins.
Next I checked the related fuse by removing it and also tested the fuse holders continuity. Both were good, which I figured, due to the dimly lit leds and the playfield's GI being lit.
I then checked to see which strings that the dimly lit bulbs were on and it turned out they were on the same string.
All of the stings wires and sockets looked in perfect shape no burns exposed wires etc.
I thought that maybe the wires in the non working strings may have come loose in the connector even though they appeared very tight and clean.
I used my IDC tool to punch them in tighter and there was no change.
Next I broke out the DMM and tested pins voltages which appeared correct ugh.
I then swapped the j120 and j121 connectors as the j120 was the playfield GI and J121 being the panel insert just in case there may have been a bad trace on the reverse side of the PDB. When I made the connection swap the Playfield GI remained lit and the insert was the same with the 5 dimly lit leds. (Note the connectors were installed in reverse when I got to the machine)
So with all of these tests I decided to test continuity from the IDC connector to the first sockets on every string and what do you know My DMM batteries died ugh
Without the DMM I decided to make a visual of the insert wire harness as there may have been breaks somewhere in the middle that I could not see. Took about 20mins to remove the Harness and with a visual it looked brand new.
Stumped and getting pissed that an insert GI was getting the better of me I thought {Let me pull a dimly lit led and put it into a non lit led socket)
With the swap out of a dim with a non working led, the dim LED lit in the different socket and again only dimly.
I then swapped it out with another dead LED and it lit again and just as dim as usual.
I then swapped a dead led into a known working socket and it didnt light!!!!!!!!!
I then said to myself are you f,,,ing kidding ? Can all of the Leds just be bad?
I installed a new LED and it lit perfectly. I did the same with random sockets and all of the new LEDs lit right up.
So it turned out that the entire insert had Blown LEDs what the Hell! When does that ever happen? Not only that they all looked brand new.
What a huge waste of time going over all of those steps when it was a matter of all of the LEDs being blown, of course it didnt help that my DMM batteries died as that would have saved the 20 min wire harness removal.
One note is that the LEDs were odd and of a kind I had not seen before. The "Bulb" portion was very thin almost but not quit tube shaped. They were not Cointakers or Ablaze I have no clue where the operator got them from but I will ask him.
So 2 other techs failed to figure out the issue and were stumped and I can see how, as nothing made sense.
Anyone else come across this type of situation?

I wonder if they all went out around the same time, or if they started failing here and there until enough were out (dim) to be noticed.

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from pacmanretro:

I wonder if they all went out around the same time, or if they started failing here and there until enough were out (dim) to be noticed.

Mine all dimed together, and very gradually.

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

I feel like that completely defeats one of the main reasons people pay the premium price for LEDs: Long life. I think I read someplace that what causes solid state components to "wear out" is impurities that are introduced to the doping process when they're annealed.

pretty sure that Comet stopped carrying the version that lost brightness over time.

The SMD are great and solid. I have used a couple thousand at this point and only 10 or so total duds (like 1% or less)

#30 6 years ago

Keep in mind that LED driver circuit design is important. LEDs must be powered from a DC source that limits the current flowing through them. This is in contrast to incandescent lamps that will operate from AC or DC and which generally require no separate current limiting, The components used in pinball LEDs are very basic, usually just a simple current limiting resistor and anti-reversal diodes. Unless the game has been designed with LEDs, or you are using a board such as LED OCD to drive them, you can't be guaranteed that the circuit isn't overdriving the LED components when you drop them into a circuit designed for regular bulbs. Damage resulting from incorrect drive current and/or voltage may be manifest in many ways ranging from dimly lit but normal-looking LEDs through to severe physical damage.

#31 6 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

... you can't be guaranteed that the circuit isn't overdriving the LED components when you drop them into a circuit designed for regular bulbs.

I disagree with this premise, the voltage characteristics of a GI circuit on a pinball game is well known. Will there be variations from one game to another and one location to another, sure. However, the parameters the bulb must survive is well known. Very similar to a household 120V light bulb or automotive light bulbs where the bulb is subjected to various voltages, surges, etc.

I think the case we have here is these bulbs are not designed to survive in typical pinball GI voltage. They were either designed for a lower voltage use, have a bad design (no blocking diode, etc) or they are being over-driven by design (too small of current limiting resistor) to make them look brighter.

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