Flight 2000
Stern Electronics, 1980I still wish there was a more cost effective solution for Sys1. $250 for new display sets - well, that's half of what many are worth.
As for the LED/plasma/color thing, I'm on the side of being able to get matching replacements in whatever color. Heck, at a good enough price you could buy someone's outgassed displays and put in your desired color in a game.
Quoted from shimoda:I still wish there was a more cost effective solution for Sys1. $250 for new display sets - well, that's half of what many are worth.
As long as the glass nipple isn't broken, the displays are easy to repair. The problem is usually the resistor and/or the 6118 chips. You can find the 6118 chips on ebay.
Quoted from acebathound:... or vinyl records versus cds.
There is no debate there, vinyl simply has more frequency response and resolution.
Always keep in mind, the CD was the best digital reproduction format that a 1977 computer could do.
Quoted from shimoda:I still wish there was a more cost effective solution for Sys1. $250 for new display sets - well, that's half of what many are worth.
Yeah really putting any money into a System 1 game is pissing into the wind as it won't increase the value of the game unless when it's sold, the person buying it appreciates all the upgrades & values those additions just as much. So you just have to love the game(s) enough to warrant throwing additional money into them for upgrades or new boards. For the displays it makes more sense to just use the originals unless you can justify going belly up on the game.. or if you can sell the old set to help pay for the new set.
Quoted from acebathound:Yeah really putting any money into a System 1 game is pissing into the wind as it won't increase the value of the game unless when it's sold, the person buying it appreciates all the upgrades & values those additions just as much. So you just have to love the game(s) enough to warrant throwing additional money into them for upgrades or new boards. For the displays it makes more sense to just use the originals unless you can justify going belly up on the game.. or if you can sell the old set to help pay for the new set.
Ain't that the truth. The Dragon for sale at TPF last year was completely restored with perfect cleared playfield, repainted and cleared cab and perfect backglass. Just an awesome looking game. Didn't sell at $1200.
The only exception is probably Asteroid Annie.
Quoted from dothedoo:Ain't that the truth. The Dragon for sale at TPF last year was completely restored with perfect cleared playfield, repainted and cleared cab and perfect backglass. Just an awesome looking game. Didn't sell at $1200.
The only exception is probably Asteroid Annie.
Sadly, I hardly ever see system 1 games sell at shows. They're almost always all there from start to finish.
Quoted from dothedoo:Ain't that the truth. The Dragon for sale at TPF last year was completely restored with perfect cleared playfield, repainted and cleared cab and perfect backglass. Just an awesome looking game. Didn't sell at $1200.
The only exception is probably Asteroid Annie.
Joker Poker is one that sells.
It's a shame Sys1s don't get more love. Frankly I find them as fun as most other games of the era at the end of the day. Not always do I feel this way. Sometimes I just wonder why they weren't as cool as some Bally's but then I get tired of playing those a bit and play the Sys 1's and enjoy them just as much. Nonetheless, they really don't sell all that well.
Quoted from shimoda:It's a shame Sys1s don't get more love. Frankly I find them as fun as most other games of the era at the end of the day. Not always do I feel this way. Sometimes I just wonder why they weren't as cool as some Bally's but then I get tired of playing those a bit and play the Sys 1's and enjoy them just as much. Nonetheless, they really don't sell all that well.
Yeah they aren't bad games. Like anything "slower" you just have to enjoy it for what it is/was and put yourself in that time period.
Movies, video games.. everything is really the same way. Special effects were crappier 10 years ago.. crappier yet 20-30 years ago. Video games are noticeably outdated pretty quick as graphics improve. So people that think anything old is lame and need the next thing to top the current will never appreciate the old stuff. But they're missing out on a lot of fun and entertainment in old video games, old pinball machines, old movies, etc.
And heck, if it seems too "slow" or lame... then add a drinking game element to it 
Usually does the trick..
Quoted from Cheddar:So while we're waiting for these I think it would be cool to have a technical discussion about preparing old displays for upgrade when the glass doesn't work.
Will it be safe to troubleshoot a board with the leds attached or can the decoder be tested on the bench?
Any ideas?
The only thing that could possibly happen if diagnosing with leds attached would be what normally kills/damages leds (ie. no current limiting resistors being used, causing the max current spec's to be far exceeded even for a short amount of time. That may be kind of hard to achieve though -- there's no GND connection going to the led panel. There'd also be current-limiting resistors on the connection the segment drivers are completing. So I would view this as -- if a digit driver locks on, okay you have VCC going to a digit's common pins.. but that won't do any harm. If a segment driver locked on, you have a path to GND through a current limiting resistor, again no harm. If a 4543 output is bad.. multiple segment drivers could be locked on.. but providing all the current limiting resistors are there.. still no problem.
Mainly it would just be a concern of an inadvertent connection between a segment *after* the current limiting resistor & GND. Which is something that is possible on any display, but there doesn't really seem like some failure scenario of an un-modded display that would cause that kind of thing except if *both* resistors on the circuit the segment drivers is completing were to be shorted and the segment driver completes the circuit directly to GND. Or otherwise if someone were to accidentally manually short the segment signal after the current limiting resistor to GND.
Oh and........ if Pin #1 on the header of the component board wasn't removed and/or trace cut for high voltage & this were to be powered on in a game. That would cause some issues for sure
Aftermarket led displays at $250 are actually reasonably priced I think all things considered. I wouldn't have thought that 5 years ago, but material cost is fairly high, there's $8 in Paypal fees on $250. Uncle Sam gets a big share of the remaining net profit for doing nothing. More of the profit gets eaten up by assembly costs. Or if you're hand-soldering it's 5hrs+ of solid assembly time/labor.. and works out at about $20-25/hr if you're quick. Sure you can do SMT but you're still placing components and soldering through-hole parts. Guess what I'm saying is.. $250 is reasonable once you look at all that's involved. I think anyway. Didn't use to, but I do now.
Quoted from dothedoo:Ain't that the truth. The Dragon for sale at TPF last year was completely restored with perfect cleared playfield, repainted and cleared cab and perfect backglass. Just an awesome looking game. Didn't sell at $1200.
IF I had to put one System 1 game at the very bottom of the list of system 1 games, Dragon would be it! Unless you have some real love of that game, it didn't make any sense to put that kind of time or money into a dragon. They were certainly one of the first for us to part out back in the day.
There are a few System 1 games that shine above the rest but all are pretty hard to justify the cost of new displays and new CPU boards if its only about resale. These games have to be keepers if you want to dump a bunch of money into them. Its just a shame there is no cheap work-around for the System 1 CPU board. Operative word there being "Cheap".
Quoted from CactusJack:These games have to be keepers if you want to dump a bunch of money into them. Its just a shame there is no cheap work-around for the System 1 CPU board. Operative word there being "Cheap".
amen
My favorite Sys 1s (that I've played at least): Genie, Hulk, Sinbad, JP
Project Update
I got a date of May 5th on the digits, they'll then need time to ship. So might have them by mid-May at best. I don't expect to have kits for sale for a bit as I'd still need to get 1-2x sets of my own assembled & tested, document various ways of wiring things up, pictures, instructions, etc.
I suppose it'll be good to do some level of beta testing on these.. and I know for sure that I'll have some people interested. Who wouldn't want quicker access to see one of these in action? 
So I'll be figuring out some of how I want to do beta testing as well.
One other update is.. I'm going to be able to reduce current consumption on these some more just by not driving them near 30mA per segment. The newly ordered digits I'm getting max out at 20mA constant current (instead of 30mA) so I'd already be driving them at a lower current even at that. But these displays should be plenty bright even at 15mA or less. So good things all-around in reducing total current consumption.
Quoted from shimoda:I still wish there was a more cost effective solution for Sys1. $250 for new display sets - well, that's half of what many are worth.
As for the LED/plasma/color thing, I'm on the side of being able to get matching replacements in whatever color. Heck, at a good enough price you could buy someone's outgassed displays and put in your desired color in a game.
Well, finally there are going to be several options for those pinball machines.
The green pini's attitude, recycling old display boards and transforming them into led displays.
and
The (5 displays set) full led display boards from a starting price of 150$ up to 250$ (depending on what you're looking for as finishing options)
I think it's really reasonable and you finally have the choice.
On the "machines" selling point of view, my opinion is that you shouldn't replace the displays to led on a selling price point of view but more on your personal desire, therefore you should not count on that, when you like you spend for what you like, then we all probably know that we will never really get money back from all the hours we spend to repair, restore and maintain those machines.
Quoted from gianfri:Well, finally there are going to be several options for those pinball machines.
The green pini's attitude, recycling old display boards and transforming them into led displays.
and
The (5 displays set) full led display boards from a starting price of 150$ up to 250$ (depending on what you're looking for as finishing options)
I think it's really reasonable and you finally have the choice.
On the "machines" selling point of view, my opinion is that you shouldn't replace the displays to led on a selling price point of view but more on your personal desire, therefore you should not count on that, when you like you spend for what you like, then we all probably know that we will never really get money back from all the hours we spend to repair, restore and maintain those machines.
The main reasons why LEDs surfaced was that the glass displays were failing and no longer being manufactured. A side benefit of LEDs is that they don't need high voltage, run cooler, and can come in different colors.
For Bally/Stern displays in particular, they are essentially two pieces--the glass and the PCB. The PCBs can usually be repaired, but the glass cannot. So, it makes sense to be able to reuse a perfectly serviceable component and save some money while doing it. I would be interested to see if the same thing would be possible with other types of displays (like system 3-6 master displays, allied leisure displays, system 11 displays, etc)
Color choices can be a personal preference, but replacing dead glass displays with LED displays can sometimes simply be necessary to bring the game back to life.
Quoted from ForceFlow:The main reasons why LEDs surfaced was that the glass displays were failing and no longer being manufactured. A side benefit of LEDs is that they don't need high voltage, run cooler, and can come in different colors.
For Bally/Stern displays in particular, they are essentially two pieces--the glass and the PCB. The PCBs can usually be repaired, but the glass cannot. So, it makes sense to be able to reuse a perfectly serviceable component and save some money while doing it. I would be interested to see if the same thing would be possible with other types of displays (like system 3-6 master displays, allied leisure displays, system 11 displays, etc)
Color choices can be a personal preference, but replacing dead glass displays with LED displays can sometimes simply be necessary to bring the game back to life.
I think the main difference between modifying an old one or buying a new led one is on the complexity of the mods and on the final result. (moneywise as well)
We are all waiting for the show, to see what is going to be.
I have developped the same thing for Zaccaria, I know that there is some work to do as you would do anyway when assembling a new one but with Zaccaria I didn't really sell a lot of mods kits, probably also because the market is not the same, Bally has much much more machines around the world than Zaccaria.
Quoted from gianfri:I think the main difference between modifying an old one or buying a new led one is on the complexity of the mods and on the final result. (moneywise as well)
Right, to replace the glass display with an LED display, the procedure can't be too complicated or the savings over a complete new display won't be worthwhile. But if it's just a matter of soldering a handful of connection points, then yes, I'd say it would be worth it.
Quoted from gianfri:I didn't really sell a lot of mods kits, probably also because the market is not the same, Bally has much much more machines around the world than Zaccaria.
Yep, the problem is producing something for a niche market that something like that is inside of an even smaller niche market. However, I imagine the folks who have bought them have been very appreciative that you took the time to produce them.
Not sure how many Zaccaria were imported into the US over the years, but for sure the market is *much* smaller there on a conversion display or even regular displays for those machines just because the US wasn't their main market. There will still be US collectors that try and acquire all Zac's and then want to upgrade to LED at some point and will order half a dozen or more displays.. things like that happening, but in terms of volume of potential people that would be interested the larger market of course is going to be in whatever the largest market was when the machines were being produced since that's likely where more of the older machines still remain.
New week, new teaser photo(s)
Here's what the display looks like when reusing the old plasma display pins. I used a flat-head screwdriver to push each individual pin back into the SMT pad so it would sit flat against for soldering. There may be a better technique to do more pins at once, but it really didn't take too long to get them all pushed back and then soldered. I then clipped the leg at the top of the pad. May be good to push them back, cut them a bit lower than the top of the pad and then solder. I also soldered more legs than were really needed (6x redundant digit line signals).. anything in parenthesis doesn't *need* to be soldered. I thought they looked pretty clean overall. This would be one of maybe 3-4x different ways these connections can be soldered.. and probably the fastest way if you're working with a display that still has its plasma glass installed.
That turned out really well.
One caveat I see is that the possible strain on the SMT pad of the old lead trying to pull back on it (unless the leads were pre-bent and cut to the proper length before soldering) thereby making the solder pad becoming detached from the PCB. This could especially be true if a DIYer, that allows the solder pencil to pass too much heat to the pad when soldering. A possible remedy would be to convert that SMT pad into a custom pad with a small feed through that would produce a mechanical "anchor" through the PCB.
Quoted from CactusJack:That turned out really well.
One caveat I see is that the possible strain on the SMT pad of the old lead trying to pull back on it (unless the leads were pre-bent and cut to the proper length before soldering) thereby making the solder pad becoming detached from the PCB. This could especially be true if a DIYer, that allows the solder pencil to pass too much heat to the pad when soldering. A possible remedy would be to convert that SMT pad into a custom pad with a small feed through that would produce a mechanical "anchor" through the PCB.
Yeah I had pre-bent them so they were flat against the board when soldered, seemed like the best way to go about it for both the tension concern as you mention & also just making it easier to solder them all at once. Adding a blob of solder and pushing a pin into it seemed like it could get kind of frustrating (leave marks in the blob of solder, have the pin want to pull out if you release it before the solder cools, etc). Not only that but somewhat of a chance of solder flinging then too. Pre-bend and get all the leads in place.. then solder.. then no tension to worry about & no solder flinging back either.
I made the traces pretty thick between the pad & the corresponding through-hole to allow for some heat to be taken away from the SMT pad. I think it'll be okay, but will definitely update if I find out otherwise after assembling a few like this.
Quoted from Andyball:It has been awhile.... Any update for the anxious
Sure
Digits are in and I'm currently assembling some of the various revisions of display boards (both Bally & Stern) I had laying around for my own testing to see if there are any issues with anything. I'll try and get some photos/video posted so people can see where things are at.
I'm also trying to get a handle on all the various revisions of the displays, gathering schematics, etc as I'd like to cover as many of the revisions of possible in the instructions (as far as pictures) and also be relatively sure I have an idea of most of what's out there for display revisions for Bally/Stern. I'm thinking the way to do this is upload photos of the display revisions I have to a website & then have people help identify if I'm missing any and send me pictures of their boards. I'd like to be fairly sure I'm covering most of what's out there and it'll work with this type of conversion.. or be able to identify what revisions might not work. Should have a web page setup next week for that & will post something here when it's ready.
I'll post some more updates soon! But things are still moving along with these -- no show stoppers yet and they're looking pretty sweet IMO 
Thank you for the update. That looks very good. Looking forward for the development and help where possible.
Ok took some pictures of display revisions I had & also a few from PINWIKI/Google that were different.
I don't have any DA-300 displays as donors currently.. I'll have to track one of those down or rely on a beta tester to get one assembled & send some pictures.
Here's the link with the pictures of various display revisions (warning, a bit photo heavy):
http://www.pinitech.com/displays/
If some of the people with boxes of these things could take a quick look and see if they have anything that looks entirely different that'd be appreciated.
There's also a PINIWIKI section with display pictures, but I think I've covered what's over there.. except the weird 4-digit one (which I also have one of in my possession but the component board looks the same as a 6-digit board):
http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Displays
I'm not seeing anything so far in any of these revisions that wouldn't make this conversion universal among the various displays or eliminate any of the revisions I've found so far.
Teaser photo/video I just got a chance to test these out yesterday -- BLUE LED digits on Players 2, 4 & CREDIT. WHITE LED digits on Player 1 with an overlay just over a single digit (doubled up amber overlay that doesn't quite match the original plasma). Player 3 is the original plasma display for comparison.
Video (sorry for the poor quality, need to take video with better equipment):
.
The overlays will tone down the brightness of the digit some, not sure you can really get away from that. I'll do a comparison of the BLUE digit versus WHITE with blue overlay as I get some more WHITE digit displays built out. Will also try running the segments at 15mA instead of about 10mA as they are currently to see if that makes a noticeable difference.
For the upgrade on these I was just doing modifications to the back.. a few things to cut off the front, but then just adding the couple dozen resistors to the back of the board, jumper wire and pulling pin #1 on J1. I didn't have to change out any digit drivers, but there's one I'll probably change out because the digit is slightly dimmer. Doesn't seem that will be as much of an issue as I thought it could be.
The conversion probably took 30-40min per display. I'd think hitting a 30min time wouldn't be too hard for experienced solderers after they assemble one or two of these and get a feel for things. If removing components instead of doing modifications to the back of the board, it'd probably be closer to 1hr per display.. I'll be assembling some like that too and getting a feel for things.
It was exciting getting these in a real machine for testing.. I've only been testing single displays at the bench. To me it's night and day over the plasmas, I like the slightly larger digits & segments personally. And led displays in general definitely make the machines feel more modern. Happy with how these are turning out.. more to be done, but coming along!
Now I am really teased. I like the amber and toned down. Not too bright.
Not replacing drivers is a real good thing. I am not sure what the part count replacement is for the Bally 6 digits, I would personally prefer to remove the old components and replace then with the correct values. Not a big fan of piggyback. This may not be the best for most of the people as they may not have the right desoldering equipment or skills. The added time for removal is about 5 seconds per hole and, at the end, about a few minutes to pull all parts out and clean. 45 to 60 mins per board seems fair.
Are you planning to have all the versions done before release? There Seems to be a lot. I still have to check what is my version. I think I have the -21. However, most of my plasma displays are good and strong. I plan to find other boards instead of using working ones.
Quoted from Andyball:Now I am really teased. I like the amber and toned down. Not too bright.
I've actually heard people ask if there's a way to tone down the led digits, not that they saw these displays in action (I didn't have the digits in) but just a general comment about aftermarket led displays. I told them with the WHITE with an overlay they'd be toned down some naturally. It basically amounts to it not BLARING in your eyes. So I don't see it as a problem really.. I think most people are going to find they like the look.
Quoted from Andyball:Not replacing drivers is a real good thing. I am not sure what the part count replacement is for the Bally 6 digits, I would personally prefer to remove the old components and replace then with the correct values. Not a big fan of piggyback. This may not be the best for most of the people as they may not have the right desoldering equipment or skills. The added time for removal is about 5 seconds per hole and, at the end, about a few minutes to pull all parts out and clean. 45 to 60 mins per board seems fair.
Yep, that's what I'd recommend for anyone with the proper desoldering equipment. I just wanted to offer an alternative method. The downside is, you're reheating old solder if you're not removing it entirely. So far I haven't had issues doing that with the first set of displays I've done. Some of the solder seems a bit cruddy -- or was already reworked before, but all the displays have worked. I'll be completely removing components for the set of WHITE displays I do and I think you're right, probably looking at about 45-60min there to remove components & replace -- with the right experience, tools & technique.
Quoted from Andyball:Are you planning to have all the versions done before release? There Seems to be a lot. I still have to check what is my version. I think I have the -21. However, most of my plasma displays are good and strong.
That was the thought. It's going to depend on what else surfaces as people go through the boxes of displays they have. STERN so far seems to have had the most major revisions. I'm interested in seeing if there's other BALLY revisions I currently don't know about.
Quoted from Andyball:I plan to find other boards instead of using working ones.
That's the idea. Plenty of dead/dying displays out there for donors. No way I'd want people to take a perfectly working plasma display to do this conversion. You're better off in that case trading the working one for a pile of dead ones with someone, or just waiting until you get a machine in with a few more dead/dying displays so you can make a complete set of dead displays for upgrading one machine and throw the perfectly good plasmas in the other machine.
Quoted from Cheddar:DA300 if you like I can priority it to you
May take you up on that & possibly grab a few other displays from you too!
Sorry guys, been a crazy month for me working on a large house project that's disrupting a pretty heavy traffic part of the house until it's finished and has left me with little time for pinball activities. I've even had to throttle sales via the website some over this last month as to not get derailed too long. The good news is, that will be wrapping up soon (1-2 weeks) so I can get back to these displays. Things should speed right along at that point (testing of 7-digit models, load testing, documentation) & as long as all that goes well as it has so far.. beta testing will be right around the corner.
Interesting small update. When I last left off with these, I attempted some load testing & was getting a low 5v even without any led displays connected (around 4.4v) with the modified SDB I had used before with load testing. Had a bit of time today to look into things. Turns out the culprit was the FLUKE 115 meter I was using. For whatever reason it's not handling the full load even though it's fused up to 10A. Same setup, with a FLUKE 177 gives me 4.94v. Go figure. Just happy I didn't have to chase my tail too long on that one, thanks to having some other meters around.
Quoted from acebathound:Stern DA-300 successfully tested thanks to the donor from Cheddar =]
Nice.
You could do the PCB layout and offer them up as a complete kit. I think people would go for that. Nothing too expensive or complex to assemble on the display PCB.
Quoted from Cheddar:Did the board work as-is or did you have to fix it first?
That one worked as-is
Quoted from barakandl:Nice.
You could do the PCB layout and offer them up as a complete kit. I think people would go for that. Nothing too expensive or complex to assemble on the display PCB.
Oh but that takes the fun out of converting an old display and turning it into something useful again! Kind of the gimmick or novelty of it all. There's people with boxes of these old boards that would otherwise just sit on the shelves forever. This gives those boards purpose and clears the space. Then plenty of machines that are bought every day with 3-4 failed displays.. instead of being bummed, it becomes a fun little weekend project to upgrade the *same displays* that came with the machine to something usable again. Less waste in the landfill, less space since you aren't storing "parts boards" that you might use *some day*.. the waste is waste (ie. out-gassed plasma display, etc) and gets tossed, the boards go back into the machine. And you'll save a couple more bucks over a full dispay kit.
Plus, it's got this cool retro vibe going for it with the sheer number of transistors/resistors on those old boards versus the scaled down number of components on new boards. Pfft, who needs ICs when you can do it all with resistors and transistors!
Conversion Displays - "The Greener, Not Leaner, Non-Cluttering Alternative You Can Feel Good About"
I'm working on my marketing angles hehe.
Quoted from acebathound:Conversion Displays - "The Greener, Not Leaner, Non-Cluttering Alternative You Can Feel Good About"
I'm working on my marketing angles hehe.
Yeah I don't think you need a marketing angle here, pretty sure they will sell themselves. That said, when are these going to be available for purchase
I'd like to judge interest in a *very* "rough around the edges" 1ST ROUND OF BETA TESTING on these conversion kits to basically get the project moving along & to gain some valuable feedback/suggestions based on other people's experiences.
Before getting *too excited*, let me explain briefly what that might look like..
There'd be limited instructions, possibly just a component list of things to change per display model and quick description of the conversion process (recommendations of required/optional modifications, some tips on parts of the build, etc). *Emphasis on limited instructions.* Should be enough for the more experienced individuals to know what needs to be done, but not for anyone that needs every step detailed with pictures when building out kits. Participants would need to have the right tools, be comfortable with troubleshooting Bally/Stern displays, be able to fill in the blanks some, & provide feedback/suggestions based on their experience. There may be additional small modifications to the display or slight differences in what's included with the kit(s) as the project moves forward, but at this time I can't imagine anything major.
Doing an initial beta test this way takes a lot of pressure off me honestly in not feeling I have to "get everything right" just to get some of these boards into the wild & get some feedback. The feedback would help finalize some decisions on how far to go with instructions, what to suggest for build steps & even the feasibility of this entire idea (cool/awesome or too cumbersome?). If some people that consider themselves experienced with modifying boards attempt the conversions and have issues, then I know the less experienced people will also have issues. So at least for this project, "relaxing" my own expectations of where things need to be at for an initial round of beta testing seems most appropriate to move things along.
So with that said -- who'd be up for that kind of thing? As long as there's enough interest, I can whip up some more details early next week on discount pricing for kits for the beta test, etc -- and may even be able to start sending some kits out later in the week [as long as I'm not finding I have to place any additional material orders].
Wish that was true with the one I had at Pintastic. Still have it and it's project sibling.
Quoted from snyper2099:Joker Poker is one that sells.
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Sana'a
Lodi, CA