(Topic ID: 154987)

Insert ghosting on new stern Game of Thrones


By Hougie

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 95 posts
  • 31 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by CaptainNeo
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 95 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

One week will probably not matter in the overall scheme of things.
Those playfields were produced months before assembly; and if they came from Germany, then many months have passed before assembly.

Thanks for the correction.

#52 3 years ago

Best thing you can do is keep the game in a stable climate, both temp AND humidity.

#53 3 years ago

ghosting is unavoidable on any field that's clearcoated. It can happen from any manufacturer on any game any time. Might happen in 30 days.. might happen in 30 years. It's just part of modern pinball and has to be something you get used to. Sucks when it happens, but there is no way to control it.

#54 3 years ago

I at am the location that kiss is at today. The insert is getting worse and is lifting on the right side.

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#55 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

ghosting is unavoidable on any field that's clearcoated. It can happen from any manufacturer on any game any time. Might happen in 30 days.. might happen in 30 years. It's just part of modern pinball and has to be something you get used to. Sucks when it happens, but there is no way to control it.

Then what about the post above this one? This looks like it's going to lead to the insert being damaged and the gameplay is going to be affected by the insert lifting.

#56 3 years ago

it will start chipping eventually. Only way to fix it, is to clear it some more down the road. The nice part about it is, that sterns clear is truly clear.

Unlike B/W. their clear is foggy. So when it chips out, it's a real PIA to fix. because that fog effect is very difficult to copy and get the inserts looking uniform. It's a huge process and gets insanely expensive to restore.

For stern. All you have to do is reclear it and you won't really see it anymore. That doesn't mean it can't reghost again, but it will be buried in deeper clear, and chance of it breaking through the clear resulting in wear is slim to none in a home environment.

#57 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

it will start chipping eventually. Only way to fix it, is to clear it some more down the road. The nice part about it is, that sterns clear is truly clear.
Unlike B/W. their clear is foggy. So when it chips out, it's a real PIA to fix. because that fog effect is very difficult to copy and get the inserts looking uniform. It's a huge process and gets insanely expensive to restore.
For stern. All you have to do is reclear it and you won't really see it anymore. That doesn't mean it can't reghost again, but it will be buried in deeper clear, and chance of it breaking through the clear resulting in wear is slim to none in a home environment.

Good to know. Thanks.

#58 3 years ago

I think this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but no matter what the price of a game, it is going to experience wear and tear. You have a steel ball pounding the inserts and the field over and over, you have other shocks from solenoids firing, and probably vibration from shakers shaking (I don't know what games have shakers). Stuff will wear out.

It's reasonable to hold a manufacturer accountable for stuff that arrives DOA, or stuff that experiences sudden catastrophic failure when fairly new.

It's not reasonable to hold a manufacturer accountable because when you zoom in on a picture of a plastic bit, you can see a white patch at the edge of that piece of plastic.

#59 3 years ago

Well if Chuck's is doing it I don't even need to check mine; same shipment and all.

#60 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

It's reasonable to hold a manufacturer accountable for stuff that arrives DOA, or stuff that experiences sudden catastrophic failure when fairly new.
It's not reasonable to hold a manufacturer accountable because when you zoom in on a picture of a plastic bit, you can see a white patch at the edge of that piece of plastic.

Sure, production variances and all that. Still, it sucks to get one of the machines with a problem and affects resale value down the road.

#61 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

It's not reasonable to hold a manufacturer accountable because when you zoom in on a picture of a plastic bit, you can see a white patch at the edge of that piece of plastic.

Who on this thread said this once? All I've said is that I'm concerned that a game I take insanely good care of is going to have chipped inserts after only a few thousand games when I see games with ten times that many plays with nothing like that on it.

Is it too much to ask of a game to hold up if it's been taking care of? I never once mentioned holding stern accountable unless this problem gets exponentially worse in the near future. I would be stunned if they think chipped and broken inserts after a few thousand plays is to be expected for their brand new games that are pretty much HOU. I'm only trying to understand my situation and if anything can be done to prevent or stop this from getting worse.

#62 3 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Sure, production variables and all that. Still, it sucks to get one of the machines with a problem and affects resale value down the road.

This is of no concern to me what so ever either. I want the game to play great forever. That's my only concern.

#63 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Who on this thread said this once? All I've said is that I'm concerned that a game I take insanely good care of is going to have chipped inserts after only a few thousand games when I see games with ten times that many plays with nothing like that on it.
Is it too much to ask of a game to hold up if it's been taking care of? I never once mentioned holding stern accountable unless this problem gets exponentially worse in the near future. I would be stunned if they think chipped and broken inserts after a few thousand plays is to be expected for their brand new games that are pretty much HOU. I'm only trying to understand my situation and if anything can be done to prevent or stop this from getting worse.

The original post is someone concerned that they have ghosting on inserts from their new GOT. They have been in touch with the distributor who has in turn contacted Stern. And a bunch of discussion and commiseration follows. This implies that multiple people consider this to be a manufacturing defect and that the manufacturer is accountable.

No one in this thread has said they have experienced chipping and breaking inserts, it's still just about ghosting. Even then, I might consider an occasional chip or break to be normal wear and tear after thousands of plays. A heavy metal ball travelling at high speed and making contact on a pin-prick sized area of the playfield surface is going to pack a helluva punch. With that punch will come wear, tear, and eventual damage to the surface. It's part of the package if we're going to play our machines.

Another part of the hobby package is some wicked awesome Vid's guides to help us fix the damage our machines sustain while being played.

It's kind of comparable to a hobby a former employer of mine had. He was a drag racer. He had some wicked awesome 70's dragster that he would take out to the track. Sometimes he'd win, sometimes he'd lose. He always had a good time. And he knew he could count on having to repair something every time he raced. He'd blow out a piston, or wreck a cylinder, or whatever important bits make cars go (Magic elves? I don't know cars). As long as he wanted to race, he had to keep up the repairs. More races, more repairs. If we want to play, but we want the machines to remain pristine, then we have to keep up the repairs too.

#64 3 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Sure, production variables and all that. Still, it sucks to get one of the machines with a problem and affects resale value down the road.

it shouldn't effect value that much. People that know what they are doing, know it's not a big deal and nothing you can do about it. If you pay more for a game with non ghosting, you are pissing money away, because the game you just bought might be ghosted by the time you get home, or a week later.

#65 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

it shouldn't effect value that much. People that know what they are doing, know it's not a big deal and nothing you can do about it. If you pay more for a game with non ghosting, you are pissing money away, because the game you just bought might be ghosted by the time you get home, or a week later.

If all games have it, I would agree with you. However, I have a lot of games from all eras and if they have ghosting on the inserts, it hasn't been bad enough for me to notice.

I would certainly offer less for a game with a noticeable problem or avoid the game all together. I enjoy fixing mechanical problems but dislike cosmetic repairs. Spot clearing does not seem trivial to me but maybe it is.

#66 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'm sure it won't be the last, either.
I can usually find a little bit of ghosting on any clearcoated playfield somewhere; it just sucks when it happens on such a new game.
The plastic and the wood expand and contract at 2 different rates. The poor clearcoat gets caught in the middle.

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You are 100% correct sir. The plastic and wood expand and contract at 2 different rates with changes in temperature and humidity. You CAN NOT prevent this from happening ever unless playfields start getting made and formed from 100% plastic. Even home use machines will experience this unless the game is never turned on and it is stored in a climate controlled room and never moved .... even then I would bet it will still happen to some extent. The Clearcoat is just too thin and brittle to handle the changes and it cracks and starts to lift off the surface with the least adhesion. (also a note here paint in general does not like to stick to plastic without the use of special products and procedures, and I doubt that any Manufacturer goes to that extent) Is your insert shrinking? Probably not, not this soon anyway, but it is moving enough in relation to the wood that the clearcoat can't handle it. Possible reason is either cheap clearcoat or very thin in the area.
Not talking about games of old as the process and materials used back then are different than today, so lets focus on modern (new) pins.
What can you do as a owner to minimize this effect from happening? Unfortunately not much, unless you are willing to strip down your brand new machine and have the PF clearcoated with a HIGH END clearcoat that has Self healing and has flexing capabilities (yes there is actual real products like this used in body shops today). So you might think again about that investment in the LE models if you plan to keep them for more than your normal time frame. Stern does go through a extra process for the LE versions ... sometimes it is extra clear and sometimes the product used for clear coat is a better quality (example; Diamond Plate), both translates into more expense on their side which is passed onto the customer.
How to repair this before it gets worse .... first find out if your vendor is willing to do anything.... doesn't hurt to ask. ---So the best thing to do is strip it down and have it cleared again. If that is not feasible then you can use ... this is not for the faint of heart ... your wife's clear enamel fingernail polish. You need to either apply it with a small brush or syringe and you need to get it under the edge that is lifting, you will have excess that you need to wipe off and will clean up in later steps but it is important that you get it under the chipped surface to eliminate any air pockets. Let it dry completely and then you will proceed to LIGHTLY sand smooth with 1200 grit to 1500 grit sandpaper, this is a very delicate process as you can remove too much of the original clear very easy and cause more problems over time. You then Polish it with your choice of compounds, Novus 3 - 2 - 1 will work here.
If this sounds a little too much then you could try to recruit the help of a professional Automotive Painter (hopefully you know someone that could help you out, we normally work well for Beer and BBQ)

#67 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

I think this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but no matter what the price of a game, it is going to experience wear and tear. You have a steel ball pounding the inserts and the field over and over, you have other shocks from solenoids firing, and probably vibration from shakers shaking (I don't know what games have shakers). Stuff will wear out.
It's reasonable to hold a manufacturer accountable for stuff that arrives DOA, or stuff that experiences sudden catastrophic failure when fairly new.
It's not reasonable to hold a manufacturer accountable because when you zoom in on a picture of a plastic bit, you can see a white patch at the edge of that piece of plastic.

And that's fine but what about the games with tens of thousands of plays like my LOTR or my MET with none after a few thousand.

I'm not stupid. I get that there will be wear. When the inserts are looking like the ones above (not mine) after (I'm assuming here) a few thousand plays, I don't think that seems right. We are not talking about minor repairs when reclearing a playfield.

Am I saying that I need a new playfield? No, absolutely not. Am I happy that the inserts are already ghosting? Absolutely not. I just hope that within a years time I don't have lifting or chipping inserts. I can't believe that anyone would think that is okay. Anybody who bought a new game with significant wear in a short period of time/plays (I'm not talking about mine) would surely be pissed.

To be clear I'm not pissed yet or demanding a new PF.

#68 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Best thing you can do is keep the game in a stable climate, both temp AND humidity.

Thats the point ... it will not prevent bad quality but will be good for your game.
in my gameroom/garage is airconditioning and heating.

On the other hand I have pins for over 10 years (BC, WhiWi) and stored them the first years in a unheated garage ... no inserts are damaged and no DMD broken ... seems also a point of quality, coat, drying time, etc, pp ...

#69 3 years ago

Major disappointment. Its 2016 and Stern still can't get their play fields together. All the money you spend on a machine it should be made right!

#70 3 years ago
Quoted from newpinbin:

Its 2016 and Stern still can't get their play fields together.

The only games that can't get ghosted inserts are games that don't have a clearcoat on them.

You don't see any ghosting on Orbitor, Elektra or New Canasta

#71 3 years ago
Quoted from TomDK:

Thats the point ... it will not prevent bad quality but will be good for your game.
in my gameroom/garage is airconditioning and heating.
On the other hand I have pins for over 10 years (BC, WhiWi) and stored them the first years in a unheated garage ... no inserts are damaged and no DMD broken ... seems also a point of quality, coat, drying time, etc, pp ...

I think climate control is good, but ... Before I converted to all LEDs, those incandescent bulbs would put out so much heat I recall the backglass being hot to the touch, hot spots on the playfield, etc. Going through those warm up / cool down cycles every day (on location) I would think would be more stressful than any 'reasonable' environmental variables. Again, though, I do the same in my game room/garage and think it's a good idea, the games though should be able to handle the environment within their specs ...

#72 3 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

If all games have it, I would agree with you. However, I have a lot of games from all eras and if they have ghosting on the inserts, it hasn't been bad enough for me to notice.
I would certainly offer less for a game with a noticeable problem or avoid the game all together. I enjoy fixing mechanical problems but dislike cosmetic repairs. Spot clearing does not seem trivial to me but maybe it is.

since I restore fields for a living and see 100's of fields. I've seen it from everyone and nearly every game. I've seen TZ's, MM, CC, CV, TOTAN, TOM, NGG, STTNG, IM, LOTR, TAF, PM, Stargate, Shadow, Freddy...you name it..i've seen them with ghosting.

Like Vid says. Climate has a big part in how much expanding and contracting the wood is doing in ratio to the plastic. This does play a part.

#73 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The only games that can't get ghosted inserts are games that don't have a clearcoat on them.
You don't see any ghosting on Orbitor, Elektra or New Canasta

yup, my orbitor doesn't have any ghosting at all. I'll trade someone for their piece of shit ghosted insert game (excluding SF2 or Xfiles)

#74 3 years ago

It always burns me too when the black line around the inserts inevitably crack and let light through.

#75 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

yup, my orbitor doesn't have any ghosting at all. I'll trade someone for their piece of shit ghosted insert game (excluding SF2 or Xfiles)

It must be pretty fun to make light of the deal. I'll let you know when I'm ready for the trade.

#76 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

since I restore fields for a living and see 100's of fields. I've seen it from everyone and nearly every game. I've seen TZ's, MM, CC, CV, TOTAN, TOM, NGG, STTNG, IM, LOTR, TAF, PM, Stargate, Shadow, Freddy...you name it..i've seen them with ghosting.
Like Vid says. Climate has a big part in how much expanding and contracting the wood is doing in ratio to the plastic. This does play a part.

I don't doubt that any game from any manufacturer can have this issue. I'm just saying that most games don't. For example, of the 15,000 TZs produced, what percentage has problems with ghosting inserts?

#77 3 years ago
Quoted from Hougie:

It must be pretty fun to make light of the deal. I'll let you know when I'm ready for the trade.

actually I wasn't referring to your game at all. I was referring to the people that think a game is junk because of a little ghosting. I'll take those "shitty" ghosting games off their hands.

#78 3 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I don't doubt that any game from any manufacturer can have this issue. I'm just saying that most games don't. For example, of the 15,000 TZs produced, what percentage has problems with ghosting inserts?

50% from as many fields that i've gotten. door panels have it happen a lot. as well as the bolts up in the mini playfield.

#79 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I'll take those "shitty" ghosting games off their hands.

Sure, but you're a pro at fixing that stuff. You also said:

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Unlike B/W. their clear is foggy. So when it chips out, it's a real PIA to fix. because that fog effect is very difficult to copy and get the inserts looking uniform. It's a huge process and gets insanely expensive to restore.

Doesn't sound like something I would want to tackle, so I should avoid older games with the problem.

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

50% from as many fields that i've gotten. door panels have it happen a lot. as well as the bolts up in the mini playfield.

Oh man, I'm going to have to go home and take a closer look at my games and report back.

#80 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

actually I wasn't referring to your game at all. I was referring to the people that think a game is junk because of a little ghosting. I'll take those "shitty" ghosting games off their hands.

Fair enough. I'm not in that camp at all. I do really hate to fix cosmetic problems. Most of the time I don't even worry about them. I am a ton better at troubleshooting and working on the mechanical/electrical side of pinball. Hell I kind of enjoy when one of my games break and give me something to work on.

#81 3 years ago

image_(resized).jpeg

My lock insert is the worst offender.

#82 3 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Sure, but you're a pro at fixing that stuff. You also said:

Doesn't sound like something I would want to tackle, so I should avoid older games with the problem.

Oh man, I'm going to have to go home and take a closer look at my games and report back.

just because you have ghosting doesn't mean your going to get chipping. Chipping is from the insert expanding and contracting and shifting. It creates a fault line in the clear. Then the insert raises slightly allowing the clear to catch and start curling. You can see it happening and stop it ahead of time. It's not something that happens overnight. Takes like 1000's of games once it shifts upwards. Sometimes they shift up, and go back down. But ghosting alone will not cause that.

#83 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

just because you have ghosting doesn't mean your going to get chipping. Chipping is from the insert expanding and contracting and shifting. It creates a fault line in the clear. Then the insert raises slightly allowing the clear to catch and start curling. You can see it happening and stop it ahead of time. It's not something that happens overnight. Takes like 1000's of games once it shifts upwards. Sometimes they shift up, and go back down. But ghosting alone will not cause that.

Sterns change to LEDs has to help prevent insert wear, right? I would imagine that the dirty/nearly burned out 44s cause the most issues on inserts expanding. LEDs running cooler surely help slow the process.

#84 3 years ago

GREAT! I think my GOT LE will be the last Stern Game I buy, I am glad I put play field protectors on them but who knows how long that will prevent the inedivable. Looks like the cost cutting has finally caught up with them.

#85 3 years ago
Quoted from capguntrooper:

who knows how long that will prevent the inedivable. Looks like the cost cutting has finally caught up with them.

Every game since Funhouse will probably have some ghosting somewhere.

Stern's clearcoats are the best they have ever been right now.

#86 3 years ago
Quoted from Hougie:

Sterns change to LEDs has to help prevent insert wear, right? I would imagine that the dirty/nearly burned out 44s cause the most issues on inserts expanding. LEDs running cooler surely help slow the process.

yes. LED's will help with the heat and cooling aspects of the inserts. Which really put more stress on expanding and contracting situation. Climate and humidity are main contributors. Extreme cold and heat. Like warehouses, garages. Left out in the car overnight during winter or hot summers. All those play a part.

#87 3 years ago
Quoted from bhwolf:

I think climate control is good, but ... Before I converted to all LEDs, those incandescent bulbs would put out so much heat I recall the backglass being hot to the touch, hot spots on the playfield, etc. Going through those warm up / cool down cycles every day (on location) I would think would be more stressful than any 'reasonable' environmental variables. Again, though, I do the same in my game room/garage and think it's a good idea, the games though should be able to handle the environment within their specs ...

You are right, LED are much cooler ... but ... on my games I would never, never, never Change bulbs for LEDs.
I love the look and shine of the machines as they were. WOZ, MET and GOT ... okay ... but all other (older) machines have bulbs .... I am oldschool

#88 3 years ago
Quoted from TomDK:

You are right, LED are much cooler ... but ... on my games I would never, never, never Change bulbs for LEDs.
I love the look and shine of the machines as they were. WOZ, MET and GOT ... okay ... but all other (older) machines have bulbs .... I am oldschool

I'm pretty much the same. I don't generally change older games over to LEDs. For instance, LOTR and Spider-man just look better with incandescent bulbs. I tried some on Centaur but they just don't look right.

The fact that Stern is changing over to LEDs should help reduce insert wear and chipping, IMO.

#89 3 years ago

On the other hand, I don't like incandescents. Hot, dim, and a yellow/orange cast on everything, tend to burn out at the worst possible time. I far prefer LEDs, especially with an LED OCD board to simulate light the light fade effect of incandescent bulbs.

In fact, I was confused by the whole thread for the first few posts - I always thought that in pinball, ghosting referred to a bulb in the lamp matrix getting some bleedover power, causing it to illuminate dimly. I couldn't figure out what that would have to do with the clear...

#90 3 years ago

Incandescent bulbs put out white light at around 2700K. This is the perfect kind of light for games like LOTR, Metallica and POTC. I personally don't like the bluish cast of the standard Stern LEDs, which I'm guessing are ~4000K.

I'm just about done converting my DMDs to LEDs for inserts, but I'm not sold on LEDs for GI across the board. JM is the one game where I've gone 100% LEDs on the GI, and I'm still not happy with it.

#91 3 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

but I'm not sold on LEDs for GI across the board.

Nope...I keep that old school...looks better

#92 3 years ago

I keep hearing that I should worry about my plastics melting, but I haven't hadn't any problems across the 50 or so games I've owned. My games are rarely on for more than 6 hours at a time, so that may be why. Totally different environment from a route.

#93 3 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

I keep hearing that I should worry about my plastics melting...

That's the pinside overreaction crowd. These games are commercial machines that were left on for 12 hours 7 days, at least, for decades.

#94 3 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

I keep hearing that I should worry about my plastics melting, but I haven't hadn't any problems across the 50 or so games I've owned.

Games used to be left on 24/7 all the time.

But if a flasher transistor shorts on, the heat can melt plastics in a short period - long before the bulb burns out.

#95 3 years ago
Quoted from ignusfast:

In fact, I was confused by the whole thread for the first few posts - I always thought that in pinball, ghosting referred to a bulb in the lamp matrix getting some bleedover power, causing it to illuminate dimly. I couldn't figure out what that would have to do with the clear...

With LED's they are talking about a slight glow of the LED when it's suppose to be off. That is ghosting. You are correct.

Ghosting (different type) is when you have clearcoat starting to let go from a plastic insert and get an air bubble trapped in there.

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