interesting that reimports bring less. Mine is domestic and has no cabinet fade, with full brass hardware. I wouldn't sell it unless I was forced to, maybe 8k in todays market would be value sounds like.

I personally have no issue with reimports, I'm more concerned with condition of the machine. I've seen some domestic games that were rough, and I have a GNR that was reimported from Germany that is in incredible shape. Maybe it's the idea of them traveling across the ocean.

I've owned both, like both and would probably still have both if I had owned a nice example of IJ.

Purely subjective but I like the shots better on STTNG. Never tire of the satisfaction hearing that "snick" when the ball goes into the mode scoop. The game has such great flow when you're making your shots.

Love the choreography of the subways routing balls so that as soon as a ball goes into a playfield hole it immediately pop out of the lower VUK.

It's the first game where I really appreciated the use of the DMD. They somehow managed to pause game play just long enough and at just the right places so that it feels natural to see what's happening on the screen without slowing the game down. This really aids in the immersive feel of the game.

It's certainly not perfect. The outlanes can be brutal but you can reduce their effects by proper nudging (and making your shots . The non-random nature of the holodeck makes it less interesting and gives players familiar with the game too big of an advantage.

On IJ, the sound, art and overall theme integration is fantastic. The gameplay and rules just don't grab me as much as STTNG.

I've talked with other people who feel similar to you.

I'm the opposite. I can't bring myself to buy a new Stern pro because even at a similar cost they seem to offer so much less than games of the past, like STTNG and many others. However, I do feel comfortable repairing games.

They are both great.

Given the values I would buy a STTNG first and then save up for an IJ...wait...that's exactly what I did.

It's been quite a while in the debate since it has been mentioned so I will say STTNG has the Picard Maneuver, the greatest combo in pinball history. What more could a boy ask for. Your move Indy.

That combo is in many games, however. I find it just as satisfying in Rollegames or High Speed!

Being an import has no measurable bearing on the sales price of a game. Many imports are beat to hell, which DOES.

That's kind of a trademark of Steve Ritchie. The combo on High Speed feels very similar. Only difference is it doesn't return the ball back to the flipper for a repeat.

Edit: Crazylevi beat me to the comment.

I owned both side by side for about 15 years.

Both represent high-water marks in theme integration and are excellent wide-bodies.

I'd say STTNG has a better PF layout, better shots, and better use of the playfield in general. The top left 1/4 of IJ is basically useless, ball drops into pops and eventually drains out the left side, most of the time. Having said that, I really enjoy the captive ball shot on IJ, the path of adventure, and even the video modes are pretty fun.

STTNG is more of a players game I think. You can't go wrong with either game, but I really enjoy the colors and theme on IJ. STTNG is excellent also, but doesn't scratch the same itch for me. So IJ wins in a pinch for me.

Hold on a second, Michigan J. Frog! You're kidding me right? That's it I'm changing my vote.....

Yes it was innovative when used in High Speed, but in this it transcends just the shot and becomes a larger experience with the cast call outs and the dmd, the music that culminates in this joyous explosion of achievement never seen before. I'm a Solid State guy with EM leanings. I typically don't care for pins after Whirlwind, but my favorite thing to do on any pinball machine is go for warp 9.9. It is simply electric, and if it can captivate this EM/SS player it's gotta be pretty good.

All this talk about STTNG has me missing my old pin. I traded it away a few months ago and I’d love to have it back.

This is a good, civil thread....brotherly love! Ritchie vs. Ritchie

Big brother always wins

I'm a huge Trekkie. That would be a lifetime keeper for me and will be some day soon.

To me this isn’t even close!! STTNG blows away that turd called IJ (and I love the IJ theme)! The layout is just a huge bore. Lots of wasted space (the entire upper left quadrant of the game is wasted). STTNG is smooth and fast and a great layout. I’ve owned IJ twice thinking I missed something the first time, but I didn’t. It’s a goddamn turd. I would buy a STTNG again someday. Hitting warp 9.9 is an awesome feeling and Sir Patrick Stewart is a badass. Way cooler than that pussy Harrison Ford!!

This thread has single handedly increased the price of STTNG by $500.

I haven't been in the game very long, but having read a lot of old threads on this forum over the last few months has led to one conclusion. No matter how much a game is talked up or talked down, the price is always going up. Even universally "hated" games are loved by somebody. Has any game value truly tanked because a thread trashed it?

Nope cause even Judge Dredd isn't a $1400 game anymore

How good is STTNG? I dunno... but I bought one and don’t have anywhere to put it. I am officially four pins over my 4 pin space availability.

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Then I hope that my IJ has gone up by $1000!

Get that green thing outta there and give that trash can a shove...
there, plenty a room!

I'm jealous. Tell Pinbot to hit the shower. You need to get some time on STTNG!

I have both and love them both. They are so vastly different but fun pins. I picked up my IJ back in 2002 and STTNG around 5 years ago.
I gave IJ the nod as it is so much more brutal to me as it is set up. I do need to get my mode start to catch the ball more effectively (probably catches 1 out of every 5 shots). After I resolve this I'll reevaluate my opinion of IJ vs. STTNG.
~Steveo

I have both games.
STTNG is a great game, but IJ is my favorite.
Its just such an awesome game.
Of all the games i have, i think IJ will be the last game i ever part with, its pure gold

So am I. There's nothing sweeter than going downstairs into the cave and having the ultimate Next Gen collectible just standing there waiting to be played. It combines two of my absolute favorite things, so I'll never part with mine either. Not only is it Star Trek related, but it's a damn fun game. I also have a Bally ST that will stay with me forever. I got extremely lucky with the condition and price of both games in the last few years. I'm planning on having all the ST games eventually.

I've played Indy a few times and really enjoyed the game and the franchise. I would never trade my STTNG for it, but I'm a little biased.

ahhhhhhh i wasn't gonna litter the board with yet another comment from me geeking out over TNG, but what the hell. i (duh) disagree with this.

yeah, there are some clunky episodes, especially in the first two seasons, but i think the top half of TNG episodes stand up with the best of TV even today, and its very top episodes are still right at the apex of the format. i don't know if there has ever been a better 45 minutes of TV than "The Inner Light", or a better series finale than "All Good Things...". Most of seasons 3 through 6 are top notch. The cast has excellent chemistry, and the writers are still flush with ideas.

My daughter asks me to watch TNG with her at least once a week, she really enjoys it. My son is only 7, but he's starting to get into it, too.

I do pick episodes i know don't suck, though. They haven't been exposed to the pain that is "Angel One" (Riker's wang conquers Planet Feminazi), "Sub Rosa" (Dr. Crusher becomes addicted to boning her dead grandmother's lover, who is, i am not making this up, a ghost who lives in a candle), "Justice" (Wesley is sentenced to death for accidentally stepping on some flowers), or Shades of Gray (a comatose Riker dreams about lame clips from prior episodes).

I've tried to show her the original series too, because I like it, but she rejected it thoroughly. Re-watching it, i find a lot of the ideas are really outdated, and believe it or not the moralizing on TOS can be even more hamfisted than TNG. remember this goofball? :

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i do like the original series. and i can't wait to show my kids DS9 when they're a little older. But I think the good TNG episodes have aged remarkably well!

ok, sorry for the interuption. i'm done.

I'm an original series guy. Simply never got into any of the other shows or the next gen movies. It's too bad Star Trek never got a good, modern pinball machine (The DE game is pretty crummy), especially while Shatner and Nimoy were still alive to do voice work.

LOL that is totally not fair to cherry pick episodes! Some of TNG’s writing has never been surpassed - the Locutus episodes; I, Borg, almost any episode dealing with Worf’s torn allegiances between the Federation and Q’onoS, “...all good things” and I think every Ronald D. episode.

But you also have season 1, any Dr. Pulaski episode and the weird random stinkers in the later seasons. I’m not saying TNG is Babylon 5 (one of My all time faves and the most obvious example ever of “doesn’t age well”), just that I don’t think it has the lasting/universal appeal (or cool factor) of Indy as a theme

why the heck not? as you acknowledge, the top half of TNG is fantastic television by any standard. it doesn't deserve to be written off when it actually ages quite well. granted, it benefits from a curated tour.

We’re comparing different things I think - the “theme” is taking the show as a whole, whilst watching “the best of the best” - a curated journey - is best for someone wanting to dig in (or showing to the kid, which I applaud). I’m strictly thinking Indy stands better the test of time when applied to Pinball themes. TNG has 7/8 of a perfect run, while Indy has 3 hits in a row! (There is no 4th movie )

Hey Pezpunk, how do you feel about Voyager?

I liked Voyager.

I like it as just popcorn entertainment. I think it's the least strong of the other three major series but it's still a lot of fun to watch, even today.

I love and own both. If I had to pick one it'd be Indiana Jones.

Still one of my all time favorite game themes, movies and amusement ride!

Here’s a good comparison to consider. Pinside ratings by categories:

Game Design and Sounds/Music: STTNG
Artwork and Other Aspects: INDY

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I can't hold my tongue anymore. I do like IJ but the cultural phenomenon that is Star Trek is undeniable. You said it yourself...no cherry picking. Even isolating ST to TNG your math speak for itself. 88% beats 75%...

As for the games, I think the same applies.

Star Trek Fandom is vertical. Few, more hardcore fans.
Indy fandom is far less fervent but much more widespread.

Thin about it this way if you took the same layouts but switched themes, an IJ pin on the STTNG layout would probably be the #1 pin of all time.

If STTNG (8.132) had the same artwork rating as INDY (8.556), STTNG would probably move up to the number7 or 8 spot in the overall ratings. (Not sure how pinside weights things though.) I’d say the STTNG backglass is a big factor in keeping it out of the top ten.

You found me out!!

bottom line ... it's kind of like an entire series of B-grade TNG episodes, with some huge stinkers thrown in for spice.

The premise was great, and the pilot episode was very good. But ultimately, the cast has neither the talent nor chemistry of the TNG cast, and the writers played it way too safe. It wanted to be TNG 2.0, but didn't quite have the chops to pull off anything as great as TNG's best episodes. That said, The Doctor and Seven of Nine were great characters, and episodes that focused on them tended to be Voyager's strongest. The show leaned a little too hard on technobabble-as-plot to both cause and resolve problems.

I loved the premise --a starship stranded 75 years away from Federation space at maximum warp, nevertheless trying to make the epic journey home, having to make due with just their wits and their resourcefulness, having to scrounge and negotiate with unknown species for supplies, having to make tough, desperate decisions that were sometimes at odds with their 24th century values. Originally, it was billed that every time they used one of their precious photon torpedoes, it would be a big deal. It was promised that over the years, without access to a Federation starbase, the ship would become increasingly rundown and makeshift. it coulda been great!

But none of that happened. The writers had Voyager acquire a bunch of overpowered technology, and they never really felt particularly threatened. I mean, at one point, Voyager basically single-handedly defeated the Borg collective. It just removed all sense of stakes or drama, and made them feel invincible, i.e. boring. Any kind of need or shortage on the ship never felt particularly urgent -- shortages were only mentioned not to really up the drama, but instead as an excuse for why they were visiting planet X, Y, or Z, where they would inevitably kick the ass of whoever opposed them. The writers then introduced Species 8472, a race that had fully conquered an alternate dimension and was making short work of the Borg. So Janeway and her ship encased in plot armor go defeat those guys too, just for fun i guess. An entire UNIVERSE worth of aliens versus one Federation ship designed for exploration ... and Voyager wins. okay. great. sure. fine. whatever. go humans.

I dunno, i guess i was expecting a series where the characters were more desperate and endangered, forced to make more compromises and sacrifices. Also, there was never really much sense of a journey taking place. It felt a lot like TNG, where they were just kind of tooling around the galaxy having random adventures. And then in the final episode, they get home instantaneously by using a Secret Borg Warp Zone or whatever. Hooray, i guess. Voyager's premise would have thrived from a more serialized take (a la DS9), but somehow they managed to make it feel like there was even less continuity than TNG -- a show which was deliberately episodic.

i know it sounds like i'm totally clubbing it, but i don't hate Voyager at all. it was mostly basically fine. not great, but fine. i am just disappointed that it didn't come close to living up to its great premise.

I'll throw my thoughts into the debate, since I've owned both a few times and own STTNG now.

IJ theme is better than STTNG, it just is. IJ does an incredible job of sampling from the franchise and making you feel you're ''on an adventure'' and has one of the best, if not the best shots and super jackpots in all of pinball. The callouts are superb. When you smack that captive ball to get the whip crack for 100 million, does it get any better? There is a serious knock on IJ though imo, and that is it's way too easy to get multiball going, and it's right in your face to tempt you to do it. Great modes in IJ.

On the other side, STTNG is a definite Steve Ritchie masterpiece. I wouldn't have the outlanes any other way, and yes they can be frustrating and leave you one shot off a lot of times, but if you're on your game, you can pound STTNG to the moon, and if you're not, it will snake you all day out those outlanes and leave you well under a billion for a game.

The mutliball is more or less an afterthought in strategy because of how much else there is to do in STTNG, between the main modes and the neutral zone modes, when you do decide to go for multiball, it's perfectly executed and that shot into the Borg is also in the running for best shots in pinball, that is one fantastic Super Jackpot. The shots in general in Next Gen are better than in IJ imo. The extra flipper over IJ really gets a controllable flow going.

If you want to talk about great theme, really nice backglass, coolness with excellent gameplay, IJ is that game. If you want to talk about a masterpiece, with super flow and near perfect gameplay, STTNG is that game.

Both awesome games, and both have superb callouts and gameplay, but I feel STTNG edges it out overall.

There has NEVER been a more immersive experience than STTNG and probably will never be. People like to say, at this price point I can get a Stern Pro, but fellas, this game has WAY more than your average Stern Pro and that is a simple fact. I'm not knocking Stern, I like them a lot, but this game really gives you the kitchen sink. Some of you IJ fanboys need to play STTNG again.

Indy for me, for theme especially by a WIDE margin. I couldn’t care less about the Star Trek franchise, probably because when I saw Wrath of Khan as a kid, I thought it was boring as hell. ( Where is the action? They’re just talking and putting bugs in peoples helmets? )

There’s nothing wrong with STTNG gameplay. I men, it was such a good layout, Ritchie copied his own design (very original).

My thoughts on theme aside, I do know that if it was based on the original series and not TNG, this pin would be rated higher.

What game reused the STTNG layout?

Perfectly said! Seriously poetry.

Granny and the Gators

Random, semi-related fact: I can personally attest that doing a complete teardown top and bottom PF refurb on STTNG sucks - a LOT. Super-complicated under-playfied.

What? Seriously?!

Yeah, STTNG is a notorious shop out monstrosity, but we are talking about gameplay here! Indy is no picnic either.