(Topic ID: 135599)

Indiana Jones (Stern) Software Rewrite & Port over - The Journey

By applejuice

7 years ago


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  • Latest reply 15 days ago by mjannusch
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#351 22 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

Another thing that could be done is modify the plastic ramp on the right side in the shooter lane arc. A one-way gate could be added and a cut out made in the side of the plastic ramp as a ball exit strategy

This is what I always thought should have been done originally when stern released it

#353 22 days ago
Quoted from applejuice:

...
Please read the rules and learn the game....

For sure that's the plan; can you point me to them please?

#354 22 days ago

https://www.mypinballs.com/files/indy-rules_v103.pdf

Quoted from TheLaw:

For sure that's the plan; can you point me to them please?

#355 22 days ago

we have the latest software 0.8.2

#356 22 days ago

I have some video examples for you...
nasty attract mode. you really do need to fix this!
this attract mode gives me a freaking headache.

#357 22 days ago

Go into test, you're still in game play!
come out of test, you're in game play PLUS you're in attract mode.
what the hell dude???

the easiest way to fix this is when you go into diagnostics, kill the current game (just like say a wpc game.) come out of diagnostics, and go into attract mode (just like say a wpc game.)

#358 22 days ago

Autolaunch issue. you need to make your game work like every other game on the planet with an auto launch!

#359 22 days ago

Another serious problem is the ark. Your software does not seem to know how many balls are in the ark. In fact if you put all eight balls into the ball trough, you really can’t play a game. Because it’ll see the last switch is as closed and thinks the ball has ended. you need to figure out a way to load the arc with the proper number of balls. Probably at boot up. Clear all the balls out of the arc. And then auto load The proper number of balls into the arc. That would be one way. I’ll probably have to put the original CPU board back in the game and see how stern does it. But you need to mimic what Stern does. Simply put, you can’t depend on the user to load the arc manually.

Another even cooler way to do it would be to install the two missing ball trough switches. And then add them to your switch matrix. If you see more than the desired number of balls in the trough, you can assume that you need to load balls into the ark. You could do this as an optional step. If the user doesn’t add the one or two missing switches, you’re depending on them to manually load balls into the ark. But if those one or two switches are installed, and closed, you can auto load the ark (until those added one or two switches are open.)

See your game demands three balls in the ark where stern uses four. That’s why there’s an extra ball trough switch. Four balls in the trough, four balls in the ark. But five trough switches. If the fifth switch is closed in the ball trough, the game knows to Auto fire a ball into the ark, until that fifth ball trough switch goes open. The way you’re doing it (five balls in trough and five ball trough switches), that simply is not an option

Now if you set in the game options to four balls in the ark, another problem is created. start a game and it’ll search for a missing ball. Turns out that you want five balls in the trough, regardless of the number balls in the ark. And that’s a really bad idea given that there’s five trough switches. A better approach is to use the same number of balls that stern used. Four in the ark, four in the trough. Or demand that the user add one or two more switches to the ball trough. The space is there you just have to bolt the switches in and wire them up. And of course you would have to add them to the switch matrix, and program them into the auto-ark ball load routine.

and heck if you added two ball switches to the trough, you could have as many as six balls in the trough (with seven ball trough switches.) That would mimic a Wms indy jones trough. Add the 3 (or 4) balls in the ark, and you have a massive multiball situation!

#360 21 days ago

Also since your boot up time is well over one minute it would be really cool if you could have a progress bar on the Dot matrix screen while the game boots up. Your one minute boot up time would be OK if you just had a progress bar. Everyone that turns the Stern Indy Jones game on thinks it's broken because of the massive boot time. Over one minute eclipses even the current Stern games by quite a bit!

#361 21 days ago

Here's a video demonstration of the scoring delay problem. It's best seen with the spinner. but you can also see it with the slingshots.

#362 21 days ago

Here's a video presentation of ball advance problem. At first you may not view this as a big deal, but it really IS a big deal. Watch the video, it explains the programming issue best.

#363 21 days ago

Bottom line, you are violating standard pinball programming protocol. These protocols were largely put in place by Larry Demar of WMS. Bluntly put, he is the KING of pinball programming. You need to follow these protocols to the letter!! There's more, but let's start with the ones i have identified above, and go from there. Thank you for your attention to these details. Doing this stuff makes your game a professional work.

After these things are addressed, we need to talk about TILT. it is a major programming fiasco, and frankly it's difficult to get right. Your tilt code needs a lot of work, but best to probably handle that last....

#364 21 days ago

If you wanted to mod the shooter lane and use the skill shot switch as the "ramp completed" programming que, this is an easy to do. Check the attached picture. my finger is pointing to where a open slot could be cut into the side of the ramp, and a one way gate adapted to the ramp. that would make your auto firing of balls during multiball much faster and probably execute without issue and without getting two balls in the shooter lane at the same time. this and the addition of one or two switches to the ball trough would really help make your programming a lot better.

ijshooter1 (resized).jpg

#365 21 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

Another serious problem is the ark. Your software does not seem to know how many balls are in the ark. In fact if you put all eight balls into the ball trough, you really can’t play a game. Because it’ll see the last switch is as closed and thinks the ball has ended. you need to figure out a way to load the arc with the proper number of balls. Probably at boot up. Clear all the balls out of the arc. And then auto load The proper number of balls into the arc. That would be one way. I’ll probably have to put the original CPU board back in the game and see how stern does it. But you need to mimic what Stern does. Simply put, you can’t depend on the user to load the arc manually.
Another even cooler way to do it would be to install the two missing ball trough switches. And then add them to your switch matrix. If you see more than the desired number of balls in the trough, you can assume that you need to load balls into the ark. You could do this as an optional step. If the user doesn’t add the one or two missing switches, you’re depending on them to manually load balls into the ark. But if those one or two switches are installed, and closed, you can auto load the ark (until those added one or two switches are open.)
See your game demands three balls in the ark where stern uses four. That’s why there’s an extra ball trough switch. Four balls in the trough, four balls in the ark. But five trough switches. If the fifth switch is closed in the ball trough, the game knows to Auto fire a ball into the ark, until that fifth ball trough switch goes open. The way you’re doing it (five balls in trough and five ball trough switches), that simply is not an option
Now if you set in the game options to four balls in the ark, another problem is created. start a game and it’ll search for a missing ball. Turns out that you want five balls in the trough, regardless of the number balls in the ark. And that’s a really bad idea given that there’s five trough switches. A better approach is to use the same number of balls that stern used. Four in the ark, four in the trough. Or demand that the user add one or two more switches to the ball trough. The space is there you just have to bolt the switches in and wire them up. And of course you would have to add them to the switch matrix, and program them into the auto-ark ball load routine.
and heck if you added two ball switches to the trough, you could have as many as six balls in the trough (with seven ball trough switches.) That would mimic a Wms indy jones trough. Add the 3 (or 4) balls in the ark, and you have a massive multiball situation!

There you go assuming stuff again without asking me a question. The game is NOT setup the same as the stern game and the instruction sheet with the kit tells you to put 5 yes 5 no more no less balls into the trough.

Then you use the ark test mode to load the balls you want into the ark so the game learns how many to keep in there . There is a setting in the settings menu to set the number to store from 2 to 6.

So the game is an 11 ball max game

I really don’t understand why you post loads of messages without ever asking me anything and as far as I remember I never spoke to you until yesterday and you didn’t buy the kit…. Telling me loads of things don’t work but you don’t ask first ….

#366 21 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

Here's a video presentation of ball advance problem. At first you may not view this as a big deal, but it really IS a big deal. Watch the video, it explains the programming issue best.

Why are you swearing at me???! There really is no need for that.

I have no problem reviewing your thoughts on things, but if you are going to be aggressive and swear at me then i won't reply anymore. Pinball is supposed to be fun and these upgrades are meant to add enjoyment to old games, nothing more.

#367 21 days ago

Fair enough and i apologize if i can across poorly and in bad taste. The Law will be the face of comments from here on out. But everyone that programs a game needs to understand the basic pinball rules of the APPLE system, which Larry Demar designed. Once you understand those concepts, your game will be much better. There's rules to all this stuff, and they are there for very good reasons. But from here on out i'll let The Law comment as he's just more fluid at comments than i...

But on the ball trough you really do need to have one more switch then you have balls in the trough. That way you can auto load the ark.. You don’t have to depend on people, the game can figure it out at any moment. It would be really easy to implement this. I would be happy to help. this really needs to happen. i know it's a low production thing you got going, but ark really needs to be "self loading" without any user assistance. And again, with one more trough switch than balls in the trough, it's easy to implement. All the user needs to do is use the correct number of total balls.

which brings up another idea... with your kit you should have a lockdown bar receiver sticker, like stern has, that states the number of balls placed in the ark and in the trough (and total number of balls.) since you're working outside what the game normally came with, this would be a great idea. Again if you need help i can make the stickers for you. Also if you want i can make PF stickers to help with the modes/rules. i would be happy to do this and i can send you a crapload of them for free, for the next kits your sell.

#368 21 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

Fair enough and i apologize if i can across poorly and in bad taste. The Law will be the face of comments from here on out. But everyone that programs a game needs to understand the basic pinball rules of the APPLE system, which Larry Demar designed. Once you understand those concepts, your game will be much better. There's rules to all this stuff, and they are there for very good reasons. But from here on out i'll let The Law comment as he's just more fluid at comments than i...
But on the ball trough you really do need to have one more switch then you have balls in the trough. That way you can auto load the ark.. You don’t have to depend on people, the game can figure it out at any moment. It would be really easy to implement this. I would be happy to help. this really needs to happen. i know it's a low production thing you got going, but ark really needs to be "self loading" without any user assistance. And again, with one more trough switch than balls in the trough, it's easy to implement. All the user needs to do is use the correct number of total balls.
which brings up another idea... with your kit you should have a lockdown bar receiver sticker, like stern has, that states the number of balls placed in the ark and in the trough (and total number of balls.) since you're working outside what the game normally came with, this would be a great idea. Again if you need help i can make the stickers for you. Also if you want i can make PF stickers to help with the modes/rules. i would be happy to do this and i can send you a crapload of them for free, for the next kits your sell.

I guess I need to shoot some new videos of how the ark loads and is initially setup once the new kit is installed, plus expand the install notes , but to clarify again it is ‘smart’ and loads/empties itself and learns how many balls it needs to have based on what the user wants it to have . It is not a manual user process thing at all

If you know Apollo 13 then it’s similar to how the balls work in that

#369 21 days ago

ok fair enough. but i don't understand how the game can figure out if there's an extra ball in the trough if you have 5 balls and 5 switches. you really do need an extra switch-to ball number to make it smarter. that's why Stern did it that way. the game does not have to learn, it *knows* what to do even if the memory is wiped clean. You really don't want an AI interface in regards to this, where the game has to learn. it needs to know what to do, and the only way to really implement that is having one more ball trough switch compared to total balls in the trough.

i haven't looked at the switch matrix, but i have to guess there is easily an empty switch not used. why not implement this? and if the user does not install the additional switch, the code can ignore it (because that switch will never get closed.) It's win-win with this approach. and the stock ball trough has two empty switch positions, so from hardware it's like $5 in parts (the additional roller switch) and a few inches in added wire. If there isn't room in the switch matrix the slam switch (which stern programs for, but is not installed from the factory) could always be re-purposed to the last ball trough switch. So there is definitely a spot in the switch matrix to add this additional ball trough switch. But even if there wasn't, going to 4 balls in the trough would also solve this without adding a switch.

#370 21 days ago

Well I guess we see why I do the posting

#371 20 days ago

We played for 10 minutes tonight and the flipper coils were on fire. You could not touch them so hot. and you sure could smell them burning. At minimum that needs to be addressed because we’re in a semi-commercial environment. And I can’t turn the game off after 10 minutes of play. So if you could please address that at minimum. Thank you

#372 20 days ago

*slow clap*

#373 20 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

please
Thank you

Where is our cfh?
What have you done with him???

Mods: Please run an IP check to see who is impersonating cfh's pinside account.

Screenshot_20180811-180223 (resized).png
#374 20 days ago

if you're not willing or don't have the time to do this stuff, another option is to let me have the source code. and i can make the changes.
[email protected]

#375 20 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

if you're not willing or don't have the time to do this stuff, another option is to let me have the source code. and i can make the changes.
[email protected]

You forgot to say "please"...

#376 20 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

if you're not willing or don't have the time to do this stuff, another option is to let me have the source code. and i can make the changes.
[email protected]

I think it’s available here :

https://github.com/mypinballs/indianajones

#377 20 days ago

No that's the Proc version which he did before developing his own CPU board using an Arduino processor. it's doubtful that Python code would work on his Arduino board. actually i'm really sure it won't work. but maybe he could chime in to verify this....

#378 19 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

We played for 10 minutes tonight and the flipper coils were on fire. You could not touch them so hot. and you sure could smell them burning. At minimum that needs to be addressed because we’re in a semi-commercial environment. And I can’t turn the game off after 10 minutes of play. So if you could please address that at minimum. Thank you

Of course i am looking into this. I didn't spend all these years working on upgrades for games not to keep improving the code/systems and solving issues as they arise. As i have played my own indy game for multiple hours many many times it is an interesting issue that needs digging into in more detail.

Please also remember that i run a full time pinball business (for over 10 years) with many products and projects so i will try to reply on questions when i can, but i cannot always reply instantly. This does not mean i have disappeared or am not wanting to support things. Also weekends i try to spend with my family and not on pinball forums.

What would be useful is if you could put a scope on the flipper coil and see what the pulse being sent to the coil is when it is in its hold pattern. My guess is that there must be something odd or changed somewhere from what it should be outputting. The pulse as design for the flippers is currently

30 ms initial pulse, then 2ms on and 24ms off holding pulse.

If you could see what it actually is being sent, then that would help me greatly to know where to start debugging it here in the firmware.

Also, i will be addressing (with code updates) some of the comments you made regarding other items such as the attract mode lamps (attract mode is made up of more than just lamps, it is display effects, sounds and lamps), the in game play auto shooter, the service mode entry/game end, ball search failure to start etc

When a new code update version is completed i will make available a new sd card full image to be imaged onto another sd card, or send you a new sd card to swap over.

I do not share the source code for this or any of my other upgrade kit products. The source code on my GitHub area does contain an old (over 10 years old) indy project for the wms table itself and i leave that there as a reference for anyone else wanting to start their own separate game rewrite (ie not indy). It was supposed to be a kindness of sorts. It is very old and out of date now so it may be archived soon. It seems to cause more hassle than its worth these days..

#379 19 days ago

as someone that has done their own homebrew proc, i have found it very important to have other people play the game (while you watch.) for me i found myself getting into a "tunnel vision" or "bench blind" situation where i just did not see things. Then others play, and play differently, and problems became very obvious.

I suspect the guy playing friday night was an example of this. How he handled the flippers was no doubt different than say myself or The Law (it took The Law more than twice the time to get the flipper coils this hot.) I played the game for 30 minutes yesterday. Flipper coils did not get hot at all for me.

I'm not sure a scope is going to help frankly. I can say for certainty that this game is no different than your game. it's the player that is different. How the pulse looks on your game will be the same as this game. but the player, and how they handle the flippers, that's the difference.

I remember when Pat Lawlor was designing games for WMS he would go to their test location (a restaurant/bar) and sit there and watch people play his new game. The team for Twilight Zone discovered a lot of things on their new game, that ultimately changed how the game was programmed. There's some good stories about this, if you want to do some research on the subject.

Another question we were pondering Friday was this... how many of these kits have you sold? because we found it difficult to believe that nobody has given any feedback like this. I mean we are pinball mechanics here at the vfw, and probably notice things that others would miss (or not care about.) But again, hard to think no one has commented about hot flipper coils (the smell of burning coils) or say the attract mode...

We went through these sort of things with the TOTAN2.0 guy too. It's difficult to develop a new game (which is really what you have done), and do it by yourself. That's why WMS used a development team and had test locations, and even the WMS lunch room. It ferreted out a lot of weird issues because a large volume of different people played the game. Unfortunately Stern no longer takes this approach... but probably because software updates are lot easier for them (no need to burn/install new EPROMs!)

There are a lot of things you really got right on this. Your color DMD animations are among the best i have ever seen. Also your "hack the planet" cpu board is very impressive too (though the Arduino thing may provide some limits.) you have done really nice work. But the ship can be sunk by just a single bullet hole, regardless of how impressive the rest of the hull may be...

#380 17 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

as someone that has done their own homebrew proc, i have found it very important to have other people play the game (while you watch.) for me i found myself getting into a "tunnel vision" or "bench blind" situation where i just did not see things. Then others play, and play differently, and problems became very obvious.
I suspect the guy playing friday night was an example of this. How he handled the flippers was no doubt different than say myself or The Law (it took The Law more than twice the time to get the flipper coils this hot.) I played the game for 30 minutes yesterday. Flipper coils did not get hot at all for me.
I'm not sure a scope is going to help frankly. I can say for certainty that this game is no different than your game. it's the player that is different. How the pulse looks on your game will be the same as this game. but the player, and how they handle the flippers, that's the difference.
I remember when Pat Lawlor was designing games for WMS he would go to their test location (a restaurant/bar) and sit there and watch people play his new game. The team for Twilight Zone discovered a lot of things on their new game, that ultimately changed how the game was programmed. There's some good stories about this, if you want to do some research on the subject.
Another question we were pondering Friday was this... how many of these kits have you sold? because we found it difficult to believe that nobody has given any feedback like this. I mean we are pinball mechanics here at the vfw, and probably notice things that others would miss (or not care about.) But again, hard to think no one has commented about hot flipper coils (the smell of burning coils) or say the attract mode...
We went through these sort of things with the TOTAN2.0 guy too. It's difficult to develop a new game (which is really what you have done), and do it by yourself. That's why WMS used a development team and had test locations, and even the WMS lunch room. It ferreted out a lot of weird issues because a large volume of different people played the game. Unfortunately Stern no longer takes this approach... but probably because software updates are lot easier for them (no need to burn/install new EPROMs!)
There are a lot of things you really got right on this. Your color DMD animations are among the best i have ever seen. Also your "hack the planet" cpu board is very impressive too (though the Arduino thing may provide some limits.) you have done really nice work. But the ship can be sunk by just a single bullet hole, regardless of how impressive the rest of the hull may be...

Yes i agree the way to test games is with as many different people as possible. The game has been to many shows in the past. There is more to the answer though that i will try to explain below..

Thanks for the hardware comments, this project is both a hardware and software project and i'm proud of the hardware i've created.

I spent a good few years developing my own sam controller board after i moved away from the std p-roc board. There were various reasons for this such as cost, full control over your hardware and the fact some features of the sam system aren't supported on the p-roc board. The main one being you cannot get the coin door open switch info or any other status related data. The sam driver board has 2 way data so it can send data to the cpu aswell as receive it. This mean they can use the hv power switch as a read to the cpu, really neat solution.

As the game has gone through various iterations, most of the game play testing in the past was done with the p-roc board at shows before i created my own hardware. Possibly i should have done more hardware testing like i have done with my whirlwind dmd project (storm blasters). That project has a similar hardware setup. But as i am a single person business there is a limit to what i can do and so use an iteration type model where i try to improve things as i go and share publically the journey for everything. Maybe in future i will reign this in more and be more private..

Recently (with my game software hat on), i have been focusing on my other projects like Magic Girl, Storm Blasters and RFM so i haven't done many indy changes. There were some changes for v0.8.2 with the attract mode lamps (which others may not be running) as i was experimenting with shimmering effects, but i use incandescent bulbs not leds, so maybe something was 'lost in translation' so to speak. Regardless, it was always the intention to add more regular 'Williams type' lamp strobe effects just not got around to them all yet. I previously focussed on the main game film modes (16 of them with 3 hidden!) and the multiballs. Nobody plays an attract mode.

The hardware operation for the flipper pwm is what i will be focusing on next to understand why there is some variation. Possibly fans or heatsinks (that seem popular on many games now) could help you in the short term whilst i work it all out. Again, as i am sharing the dev of this project in public i am not hiding issues as they arise. Hence the title of this thread includes 'the journey'. I think though it will be my last 'journey' type thread...

#381 17 days ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Please read the rules and learn the game or ask me if you want to know something. Guessing isn’t gonna help.

Ok back after a good long session tonight after studying up on the rules. So hopefully you can answer some questions for me and some other thoughts I have.

1. I read a lot of the rules you posted but it could for sure be drawn out more with the basics, unless there's a newer version than 103.
Basics like Right ramp advances mode, right orbit lights scoop for mode etc.
1a. Does IJ change lit mode by pops and not ramp? No sure
1b. Do you need to light a mode? IJ is always lit I believe.

Quoted from applejuice:

Well the mode you videod was castle grunwald which is using the 2 captive balls not the Ball inside the map room so yes it works fine if you hit those captive balls..

2. I don't know what to say aboot this, the rules say to hit the captive ball in the map room, the lower captive ball doesn't seem to have any effect other than locking balls? What am I missing here? The rules also state that getting the saucer in the map room increases the mode value but every time I hit a ball in there it doesn't eject and there's nothing to do in the mode?

3. Steal the Stones mode rules states it's 3 rounds but I'm pretty sure it doesn't end after 3...I think I completed 5. I'll make a note to test again.

4. Jones vs Aliens doesn;t show a countdown timer if that matters.

5. How do you activate that quick MB? "Hit the rear captive ball 3 times to start quick multiball" is stated in the rules but 3 consecutive hits to the map room captive ball but I couldn't seem to get anything to start although the flasher was going. Do you have to get it in the saucer or spell map?

6. How to light Loopin Jackpot mode? What does "progressive shots to ark" mean? I've hit the ark tons of time but haven;t seen loopin Supers yet.

7. Luckily I couldn't re-create ball hang up in the shooter lane in Well of Souls; but it did happen in MB with the extra ark balls. At that time the coils were too hot to flip so this might have just been a weird occurrence. Will test again next time.

8. The Soft reset by holding the start button during a game is very problematic and froze the game during start up the 5 times i did it.


Most locked up there at the exact same "Wil..." time but once it just stayed on "MrPinballs" logo & read "reset," all lights still on and the temple scoop cycling endlessly; probably a couple minutes before i tunred it off.

9. I got yelled at because I was still playing the machine after an hour and everyone could smell the coils. I mean they are cooking in there.

10. had a weird bug were I started Rope Bridge (I think) and the mode ended it as soon as i started it, and then lit all modes as complete & lit Final Adventure mode; Probably no way to test for that one. At ball end it got stuck on the bonus count but then went to the next ball, still with the bonus count stuck on.

11. Switches really do lag; spinner is way behind.

12. Weird sort of flicker/ghost on the Temple of Doom lamp. Does that happen on yours? Need to take a look at ours and see if it's a bulb issues or something.

Anyway, thanks for any info you can give!

#382 17 days ago

i have to put the original hardware back in the game as the problem with the flipper coils heating up is unbearable. i can't spend $15 times two for new coils every time someone want to play the game longer than 10 minutes. It will also allow me to check out if the stock hardware flipper coils get hot or even warm... but frankly i already know the answer to that question... they don't. And adding fans for the coils is NOT the answer to this problem... There is a low tech solution to this too, which i am certainly not against. and that's install standard 3 lug flipper coils (wms 11629) with an old school EOS switch. It's not as elegant a solution, but burning flipper coils is not elegant either. I am not against doing this at all. If for some reason you can't get a software solution, this hardware solution does make the problem go away.

I also have to test the Tilt with stock hardware. Basically the tilt does not work in your game. I mean it could be my game, but i need to be sure (though just 2 weeks ago someone was complaining that the tilt was too tight - this we before your hardware was installed.) That's a really bad thing having not Tilt as any half competitive player will figure that out right quick, and beat the crap out of the machine.

We also saw the Ark multi-ball for the first time last night. And the "learning" concept of loading the ark. You really need to abandon this! PLEASE add an additional switch to the ball trough. There's an empty position in the matrix (i believe switch 34). PLEASE do this if you want to keep 5 balls in the trough (instead of 4.) Or just change to 4 balls in the trough, and no additional switch needed.

The problem with 5 balls in the trough is bigger than just "learning to load the ark" thing... the game does not work at all after the ark is unloaded. Because without that additional trough switch, the game does not know when the current ball in play has ended. It gets all kinds of confused. We ultimately just loaded the Ark by hand to get the game playing again. If you just added that additional switch, all these problems go away. There's no "learning" needed. If ball trough switch #6 is closed, that means load a ball into the ark. When trough #6 switch is open, ark is full. No guessing, no learning. And you can check trough switch #6 at bootup and end of game, or even during game, and load the ark as needed.

thank you

#383 17 days ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Ok back after a good long session tonight after studying up on the rules. So hopefully you can answer some questions for me and some other thoughts I have.
1. I read a lot of the rules you posted but it could for sure be drawn out more with the basics, unless there's a newer version than 103.
Basics like Right ramp advances mode, right orbit lights scoop for mode etc.
1a. Does IJ change lit mode by pops and not ramp? No sure
1b. Do you need to light a mode? IJ is always lit I believe.

2. I don't know what to say aboot this, the rules say to hit the captive ball in the map room, the lower captive ball doesn't seem to have any effect other than locking balls? What am I missing here? The rules also state that getting the saucer in the map room increases the mode value but every time I hit a ball in there it doesn't eject and there's nothing to do in the mode?
3. Steal the Stones mode rules states it's 3 rounds but I'm pretty sure it doesn't end after 3...I think I completed 5. I'll make a note to test again.
4. Jones vs Aliens doesn;t show a countdown timer if that matters.
5. How do you activate that quick MB? "Hit the rear captive ball 3 times to start quick multiball" is stated in the rules but 3 consecutive hits to the map room captive ball but I couldn't seem to get anything to start although the flasher was going. Do you have to get it in the saucer or spell map?
6. How to light Loopin Jackpot mode? What does "progressive shots to ark" mean? I've hit the ark tons of time but haven;t seen loopin Supers yet.
7. Luckily I couldn't re-create ball hang up in the shooter lane in Well of Souls; but it did happen in MB with the extra ark balls. At that time the coils were too hot to flip so this might have just been a weird occurrence. Will test again next time.
8. The Soft reset by holding the start button during a game is very problematic and froze the game during start up the 5 times i did it.
Most locked up there at the exact same "Wil..." time but once it just stayed on "MrPinballs" logo & read "reset," all lights still on and the temple scoop cycling endlessly; probably a couple minutes before i tunred it off.
9. I got yelled at because I was still playing the machine after an hour and everyone could smell the coils. I mean they are cooking in there.
10. had a weird bug were I started Rope Bridge (I think) and the mode ended it as soon as i started it, and then lit all modes as complete & lit Final Adventure mode; Probably no way to test for that one. At ball end it got stuck on the bonus count but then went to the next ball, still with the bonus count stuck on.
11. Switches really do lag; spinner is way behind.
12. Weird sort of flicker/ghost on the Temple of Doom lamp. Does that happen on yours? Need to take a look at ours and see if it's a bulb issues or something.
Anyway, thanks for any info you can give!

Ok this is going to take me some time to go through but let's start with point 1 & 2 & 5. I did say before that some understanding of the original indy is assumed, but yes maybe i should write more detailed rules. Let me just work out when i am going to have time for that....

1a) Ramp advances flashing (ie next to play) mode forward, top captive ball moves it backwards. (on original indy it was the 2 ramps. stern ij only has 1 ramp)
1b) Mode is relit from a loop shot (same as on original indy)

2 & 5) This is where things start to get alittle 'silly'. You don't have enough balls in your map room area..... I mean come on now... I thought you assured me this game was fully restored correctly... There should be 2 free balls inside the map room area as well as the fixed ball because there are 2 switches that they sit on. Normally the 2 captive balls sit as shown in my pics and i use the upper most ball moving to register shots. Only sometimes do you need to move both balls off the switches etc. It is a nice design from stern that can create extra rule depth. I can see you are frustrated in the video and automatically assume the software is wrong when you don't check the games hardware.....

'Check the manual people'

IMG_4836 (resized).JPG
IMG_4837 (resized).jpg

Regarding the flippers problem i have suggested that you send me some scope readings so i can check what is happening on the hold pulse but you don't want to do that and i also suggested heatsinks and fans as a temporary solution whilst i look into it. I am sorry this has happened, it is disappointing something slipped through.

Further more, even though you both never contacted me before and didn't buy this kit and insist on posting every possible detail on here without checking things first, you can have a refund if you return it (via the original purchasers account) no problem if its the same condition as sent. Nobody is forcing you to use this product...

#384 17 days ago
Quoted from cfh:

i have to put the original hardware back in the game as the problem with the flipper coils heating up is unbearable. i can't spend $15 times two for new coils every time someone want to play the game longer than 10 minutes. It will also allow me to check out if the stock hardware flipper coils get hot or even warm... but frankly i already know the answer to that question... they don't. And adding fans for the coils is NOT the answer to this problem... There is a low tech solution to this too, which i am certainly not against. and that's install standard 3 lug flipper coils (wms 11629) with an old school EOS switch. It's not as elegant a solution, but burning flipper coils is not elegant either. I am not against doing this at all. If for some reason you can't get a software solution, this hardware solution does make the problem go away.
I also have to test the Tilt with stock hardware. Basically the tilt does not work in your game. I mean it could be my game, but i need to be sure (though just 2 weeks ago someone was complaining that the tilt was too tight - this we before your hardware was installed.) That's a really bad thing having not Tilt as any half competitive player will figure that out right quick, and beat the crap out of the machine.
We also saw the Ark multi-ball for the first time last night. And the "learning" concept of loading the ark. You really need to abandon this! PLEASE add an additional switch to the ball trough. There's an empty position in the matrix (i believe switch 34). PLEASE do this if you want to keep 5 balls in the trough (instead of 4.) Or just change to 4 balls in the trough, and no additional switch needed.
The problem with 5 balls in the trough is bigger than just "learning to load the ark" thing... the game does not work at all after the ark is unloaded. Because without that additional trough switch, the game does not know when the current ball in play has ended. It gets all kinds of confused. We ultimately just loaded the Ark by hand to get the game playing again. If you just added that additional switch, all these problems go away. There's no "learning" needed. If ball trough switch #6 is closed, that means load a ball into the ark. When trough #6 switch is open, ark is full. No guessing, no learning. And you can check trough switch #6 at bootup and end of game, or even during game, and load the ark as needed.
thank you

As i just mentioned before if you want to return the product for a refund then please do so. Maybe ask adam though who bought it originally..

I really don't want to get into a big discussion about the ark load and unload as it works fine or should do if the shooter lane is working ok. The game knows how many balls to put back in if you calibrated it once correctly before ever playing so it doesn't need to use the 5th switch it can use any ball it sees in the trough. and so loads the balls back into the ark whilst the game is still running like on apollo 13. This way it stops the slow down of the game waiting for the ark to reload and allows you to use 5 balls for the multiball modes in the regular game. I know you will totally disagree with me on all points but oh well.

Send it back...

#385 17 days ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Ok this is going to take me some time to go through but let's start with point 1 & 2 & 5. I did say before that some understanding of the original indy is assumed, but yes maybe i should write more detailed rules. Let me just work out when i am going to have time for that....

Appreciate it.

Quoted from applejuice:

...
'Check the manual people'
...

Ahhhh....Haha too true; Nice one CFH!

Quoted from applejuice:

I can see you are frustrated in the video and automatically assume the software is wrong when you don't check the games hardware.....

Naw not frustrated at all, A person throwing a ball into a captive ball just looks more awkward than the flippers doing it If I could just put the ball in the saucer I would have.

Quoted from applejuice:

Further more, even though you both never contacted me before and didn't buy this kit and insist on posting every possible detail on here without checking things first, you can have a refund if you return it (via the original purchasers account) no problem if its the same condition as sent. Nobody is forcing you to use this product...

We're a massive club. Once person bought the kit for the club, we installed it and are learning aboot it. I've been rude in no way and simply asking you questions as instructed

Quoted from applejuice:

Please read the rules and learn the game or ask me if you want to know something...

If there is a diff'rent way you want me to ask questions (I assume privately?) I can do that just as well, I'm not a mind reader.

#386 16 days ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Appreciate it.

Ahhhh....Haha too true; Nice one CFH!

Naw not frustrated at all, A person throwing a ball into a captive ball just looks more awkward than the flippers doing it If I could just put the ball in the saucer I would have.

We're a massive club. Once person bought the kit for the club, we installed it and are learning aboot it. I've been rude in no way and simply asking you questions as instructed

If there is a diff'rent way you want me to ask questions (I assume privately?) I can do that just as well, I'm not a mind reader.

Just trying to be reasonable and give you some options if you don't want to use the kit right now. Of course you can hang onto it and try out the updates later, but the kit is designed to be plug and go so i don't want anyone to have to start adding switches or changing coils etc. I will need to work out the flipper issues here.

I hope adding the correct number of map room balls has at least solved some of the questions. Maybe that will improve the stock stern game to...

Answering question 12) from earlier, it looks like an led ghosting issue. I use incandescent (filament) lamps and don't see any issues like this. This may also explain why the shimmering attract lamp effect doesn't look too good. What type of leds are in the game?? Are they good quality ones that work ok in most other games?

Regarding tilt i thought it was working ok, but will check it here and fix if something is wrong. I believe it does need an update to stop it running during attract or a service mode session, but should work during game play.

Operation should be: 3 warnings (settable in the standard settings menu), then lose active ball on next.
Should say 'carefully, carefully' on a warning, then 'we can at least behave like civilised people' or 'i will make sure this will never happened again' on the actual tilt. Display graphics should also update on screen with Warning or Tilt etc

#387 16 days ago

Thank you for checking into this stuff, really appreciate it. We do not want to return the kit, we like it. As a side note, we compared your DMD graphics to those done by ColorDMD on the williams Indy Jones. And frankly, you did a *way* better job on the animations then colorDmd did. There's hardly a comparison, it's outstanding. We also really like the entire concept you have ported to this game. So yes we want to keep the kit.

On the map room having just one ball that was my mistake. when i bought the game it was actually a trade. And the guy doing the trade assembled and set up the Stern IJ. i made the assumption he knew what he was doing, as he owned the game for some time. Bad assumption on my part. I have put a second ball in that map room so that issue is fixed.

on the sixth trough switch... if you could, perhaps please consider program that switch 34? it could be an "optional add" to assist in the ark loading if the game sees the switch. That would be a great compromise. And if the game never sees that switch close, then load the ark like you already programmed. Or have a menu option for the sixth switch? I mean no harm in doing it that way right? just an idea, something we would appreciate you at least giving some thought.

On the LEDs again the prior owner installed them. They are Comet non-ghosting single (and double, he used both) SMD style LEDs. They are nice LEDs as far as that goes. Now on this era of Stern game i agree, LEDs for the computer controlled lights are generally not a good thing. Stern used a nice incandescent dimming feature, and LEDs don't really look right. So GI lights with LEDs only is the best compromise. But that said, when i see these Stern games at homes and on location, everyone seems to have put LEDs in for all lights. So perhaps you could program with that in mind. Or maybe have an option in your menu system to enable/disable the incandescent light dimming feature? Just a thought... But just keep in mind, LEDs are the current mindset (and frankly that is not going to change), so probably should change some stuff because of this...

Also on Tilt two warnings is the norm now. but if it's adjustable, three is fine. And if you want us to remove the LEDs we can do that too. Not ideal, but we can work with that idea and change back to incandescent.

#388 16 days ago

I should make it clear that we do really appreciate the work you have done on this conversion. we are very enthusiastic about your programming port from wpc to stern for this game. Our ultimate goal is to help improve your Stern IJ kit for everyone! and i'm sorry if that came off harshly, that was not the intent. unfortunately it's kind of my style, but i will do better at communications. and if you prefer we can move this to email (my email is [email protected] but unfortunately i don't have yours.)

Also if there's just some things you don't want to us to post about, things that you do not want to change, we will no longer bring it up. I will no longer mention the flipper issue for example, as that's beating a subject to death, that just does not need to happen. And again i apologize about the map room lack-of-ball thing. We have that fixed, and The Law can re-evaluate and re-post accordingly.

#389 16 days ago

Thanks for the replies. I'm happy to keep working with you guys and improve it based on what you find etc. It is good to have fresh eyes look at stuff certainly, but yes maybe we should move to email or whatsapp messaging etc for awhile. I will drop you an email directly.

The dmd colour animation comment is very kind and appreciated, but i must say that i had help from a great pinball person to realise these ideas. Mr Eric Priepke epthegeek was the mastermind behind the colorisation here. No surprise that it turned out first class and that he has since gone onto more great work at spooky. I will always be most appreciative of his willingness to volunteer for that job years back!! It was a ton of work to do.

One interesting thing was after he completed the main animation colourings, he went back to them to add in skys and sunsets etc as we realised that coloured animations all look like they are at night if you just use the original data and many of the moving vehicle indy scenes are during the day etc. So extra dots and the like were added to make them more realistic. A benefit of writing a system from scratch you aren't limited to the original frames etc.

#390 16 days ago

Even though i like things to be be factory on games and want the upgrade to work for stock games, one modification i think we should work out straight away is as is the shooter lane 1 way gate and ball escape path. I think you had some ideas on this before so let's discuss how best to do this and make it as factory as possible. I still don't understand why stern didn't do this in the first place!! It would benefit the original game aswell most likely.

It can be an optional upgrade for owners etc.

#391 16 days ago

Optional upgrades are always really cool. And to be honest most people will do them. If they’re buying your kit, theyre into mods! Which means are all going to have LEDs in their game too. And modifying the shooter lane ramp frankly isn’t really a big deal. You might want to include the one-way gate in your kit, it would only add a couple bucks to the whole affair. And adding another ball shooter trough switch again, only adds a couple bucks. People will do that stuff! I know guys that have made entire business models out of the goofiest of mods, that require way more work than those two things, and frankly provide a whole lot less game improvement!! Ha!

#392 16 days ago
Quoted from applejuice:

...I use incandescent (filament) lamps and don't see any issues like this. This may also explain why the shimmering attract lamp effect doesn't look too good....

Yeah prop LED issue; Just thought I'd ask.

#393 16 days ago

Again on the mods...
we just got this Stern IJ. and it went through out Ann Arbor pinball show before your kit arrived. and damn, the game was played non-stop the whole show. People go nuts over the theme and the game. Sure the Stern rules suck, and frankly, the whole game kind of stinks. But that does not stop people from loving it! They dig that ark multiball, and the call outs. Hell it's Indy Jones, one of the most recognizable themes ever!

And our game was blinged out in LEDs and has a bunch of really dumb mods. On the map room for example, someone put a snake on top of the plastic. And relative to the ark, the snake is HUGE. like a snake that would eat cars. But that sure didn't stop them from gluing it to the plastics! also the coin box is filled with figurine mods that would make any McDonalds eating 8 year old thrilled.

The point is, you're selling this kit to pinball geeks. they WILL do mods like cutting up the shooter lane ramp, and adding a ball trough switch, and putting LEDs everywhere they can! Hell most of them are just looking for an excuse to do that kind of stuff. if you told them to, they would glue a indy jones figure to the ark magnet...

#394 16 days ago

One thing i make (separately) for stern indy jones is replacement pcbs for the bright led flashers that are in the ark top, cairo swordsman and skull. They always go bad, so i redesigned the pcb with some better parts and some really nice super bright led flashers.

See here: https://www.mypinballs.com/electronics/store.jsp

#395 15 days ago

Sent you a direct email to the address above so we can continue directly on the chat.

To finish up the qus from earlier.

No 3) Should be 3 rounds then the mode completes with a total shown on screen. I can check mine here.

No 4) The mode timer is in the bottom right hand corner. Though it is shown in green (iirc) the same colour as the background etc so maybe it needs the colour changing. I think this is because the timer layer was defaulted to show green if no other colour was set.

No 6) Looping Jackpots is started when you reach a threshold of ark hits, set by the setting in the game play feature menu. the default setting is 50 hits so its not something that you get early on.

No 8 ) Yes i need to look into this

#396 15 days ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Sent you a direct email to the address above so we can continue directly on the chat.
To finish up the qus from earlier.
No 3) Should be 3 rounds then the mode completes with a total shown on screen. I can check mine here.
No 4) The mode timer is in the bottom right hand corner. Though it is shown in green (iirc) the same colour as the background etc so maybe it needs the colour changing. I think this is because the timer layer was defaulted to show green if no other colour was set.
No 6) Looping Jackpots is started when you reach a threshold of ark hits, set by the setting in the game play feature menu. the default setting is 50 hits so its not something that you get early on.
No 8 ) Yes i need to look into this

Will do & thanks!

#397 15 days ago
Quoted from applejuice:

One thing i make (separately) for stern indy jones is replacement pcbs for the bright led flashers that are in the ark top, cairo swordsman and skull. They always go bad, so i redesigned the pcb with some better parts and some really nice super bright led flashers.
See here: https://www.mypinballs.com/electronics/store.jsp

Can confirm these boards work great. Brighter than the originals, and they don't die after a short life like the stock ones do.

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