(Topic ID: 171139)

Increasing Prices: Terrible for Pinball


By jar155

3 years ago



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  • 232 posts
  • 100 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by iceman44
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There are 232 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 5.
-1
#201 3 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

Good luck picking up a Lambo produced this past decade. Cheers.

What a tool.

#202 3 years ago

Real world: I'm not an operator and I'm hardly a collector compared to many here but when a NIB machine costs more than replacing my roof @ $8,500 including a skylight, or having a new 16 X 32' deck installed with Trex, railings and steps @ $10,500, then I'm out and in no way can I justify the cost. I think what people in luxury industries fail to realize, and I'm in one myself, are we are competing with all the disposable income, not just competing against the same product lines.

#203 3 years ago
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

Agreed. These are blatant and insulting cash grabs by Stern and JJP. I hope this leads to loads of new Heighway and Spooky customers.

Well it's not like Heighway is giving them away.

Alien LE is $8150.00 and that does not include the big LCD screen in the backbox. How much is it to add that option? $550? If so, that puts Alien LE at $8700.00, a whopping $300.00 less than DILE.

#204 3 years ago
Quoted from cooldan:

i reckon a year from now, one of them could be gone, and i know who my money is on.

JJP has better QA and a far superior build quality than Stern, but is still a small company and cannot crank games out that fast.

However, Stern is a bigger company and can crank games out faster but, with lesser attention to QA and build quality.

No need for a price war when both companies just need to tweak their prices based on their *weaknesses.*

#205 3 years ago
Quoted from tiltmonster:

Real world: I'm not an operator and I'm hardly a collector compared to many here but when a NIB machine costs more than replacing my roof @ $8,500 including a skylight, or having a new 16 X 32' deck installed with Trex, railings and steps @ $10,500, then I'm out and in no way can I justify the cost.

Exactly this. Two years ago we moved from the outer ring street down to a slightly bigger house right on the lake. Everybody in the neighborhood looked at this house but nobody bought it because it needs too much work. I had multiple reasons to make the move.

It needs roof, furnace, AC, windows, absolutely everything. I have been pouring tar on the roof for two years instead of getting it replaced in order to buy some more pins instead. Friends think I'm insane, but they don't understand that the price of a new roof has remained the same in the last two years. The pins I want have risen dramatically in the same time frame. By pouring tar, I managed to pick up TFTC, SS, RFM, JD, and RZ is coming in the spring. The house is still standing, but the roof won't wait any longer so the collecting has come to an end.

Basic tear off and new roof will cost about the same amount as one BM66SLE.
New furnace and AC will cost about the same as one Dialed In.

I'm glad to sit out the pinball machine price wars and rebuild the house. It will cost me alot less.

#206 3 years ago
Quoted from cooldan:

bully for you, you are a rich man. i have been priced out of the market, I am pissed off.
i'm hoping this is just price wars between Jack and Gary, trying to force each other out of business. i reckon a year from now, one of them could be gone, and i know who my money is on.

It's funny. Price wars usually result in prices going the opposite direction.

-2
#207 3 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

Would you like to continue publicly exhibiting your ignorance, or shall we stop here?

You're the one who says he can do a better job at running pinball machines than Tim, and then pulls pinball out of his arcade because he can't make it work. So, who's ignorant?

#208 3 years ago
Quoted from floyd1977:

It's funny. Price wars usually result in prices going the opposite direction.

It is a peculiar thing. I totally expected JJP to leverage the BM66 pricing with a healthy undercut.

I think I'm with mamawaldee... this coming year the house may well win. The kitchen is overdue for a remodel and I'd like to replace all the rotting galvanized pipe in the house with PEX.

#209 3 years ago

Admittedly I still feel like a noob in this hobby, even though I've owned a pinball machine for over 13 years, the Pinside forum is still relatively new for me, but I always assumed the excessive costs of a NIB pin was related to the licensing and paying for the rights to use art work, copy rights, voice overs, music... I really like the idea of an original theme like DI but shouldn't it cost much less than a Hobbit or Wizard Of Oz because they don't need to pay for these types of things?

#210 3 years ago
Quoted from tiltmonster:

Admittedly I still feel like a noob in this hobby, even though I've owned a pinball machine for over 13 years, the Pinside forum is still relatively new for me, but I always assumed the excessive costs of a NIB pin was related to the licensing and paying for the rights to use art work, copy rights, voice overs, music... I really like the idea of an original theme like DI but shouldn't it cost much les than a Hobbit or Wizard Of Oz because they don't need to pay for these types of things?

Sure seems that way... but pinball has become its own animal. They are simply pushing the $ envelope as far as they can.

#211 3 years ago
Quoted from tiltmonster:

Admittedly I still feel like a noob in this hobby, even though I've owned a pinball machine for over 13 years, the Pinside forum is still relatively new for me, but I always assumed the excessive costs of a NIB pin was related to the licensing and paying for the rights to use art work, copy rights, voice overs, music... I really like the idea of an original theme like DI but shouldn't it cost much les than a Hobbit or Wizard Of Oz because they don't need to pay for these types of things?

When you get a license you also get the artwork, voice acting, even playfield toy molds, and even free marketing based on the brand name alone. You even get the music with the band themed machines. And now with LCD screens you don't even need custom DMD work. Just use the Blu-Ray scenes of a movie/show and some standard 3D animations and transitions. Licensed games are no doubt cheaper than an original theme that is done from the ground up. Especially now because the free advertising of a "Hobbit" or "Game of Thrones" license is enormous.

Most companies that license to JJP and Stern don't really ask for much money because it's more of a prestige thing at this point to have a pinball machine. Real big money licensing for games is made with slot machines or other mass produced items. And of course video games, clothing, toys, and so on. Pinball is extremely niche and mostly for prestige. These companies know that they are simply getting a small return for loaning out their artwork and music and so on for a small project that they aren't competing with because they don't own a pinball company.

#212 3 years ago
Quoted from SuperTurbo:

And now with LCD screens you don't even need custom DMD work. Just use the Blu-Ray scenes of a movie/show and some standard 3D animations and transitions.

LOL...you have no clue of the amount of work it takes. You think WOZ and Hobbit were easy to make and just BluRay scenes slapped on the LCD?? LOL! Go tell J.P. that he did all that work for nothing then...hell, why hire a guy at all? Jack and Gary should just let their wives clip scenes from the movies and call it done.

-2
#213 3 years ago

U mad bro?

I've never seen someone who gets so emotional over pinball on an Internet discussion board. You must be a ton of fun at parties ranting like a lunatic and insulting anyone who pays you any attention.

Settle down little man. It's just a game and it's just a pinball forum.

#214 3 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

You're the one who says he can do a better job at running pinball machines than Tim, and then pulls pinball out of his arcade because he can't make it work. So, who's ignorant?

It seems it ruffles feathers when you point out his hypocrisy or whining.

Screw this, I'm going to go buy a Lamborghini.

#215 3 years ago
Quoted from Yoski:

The new machine usually has 5 people waiting in line to get a single game in. Some folks are so rude they monopolize the machine for hours. Hopeless.

Probably because they know it's the only time they'll play one lol

#216 3 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

It seems it ruffles feathers when you point out his hypocrisy or whining.
Screw this, I'm going to go buy a Lamborghini.

So are you actually going to contribute to the topic of discussion, or just troll it with rhetoric?

#217 3 years ago

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#218 3 years ago

that image above is the beginning of the so called money grab. Stern did not start this, JJP heck didn't start it with Woz RR edition, that was even *after* MMr was announced.

So MMr was $8000 plus shipping plus a few hundred more for colorization. So it's like $8500 ish for a pin with *about* as much going on (less really) than BM66 pro and much less than DI standard edition.

People say MM is a top rated game but that doesn't make it essentially 70% more than a Stern pro at the time. What I'm talking is Met pro x 1.7 is $7995

It was the turning point. Before this Stern LEs were $6600 and Woz were $7000-7500. But just after the announcement there was a mega flood of people (us Pinsiders) who rushed to send in $1000 deposit. I was one, in fact there was a worry that I (we) might miss out on the LE edition.

In the cold light of day, I reflected that the gosh darn MM was not worth $8500 to me. I backed out and I'm sure scores of others did as well. Once they announced the LE would be followed by a regular unlimited edition, I decided that it was not really necessary to preorder one.

I decided that a remake is worth $7K maybe $6500 for AFM but just because the old ones are worth a lot like MB. Once they are remade ((like IMVE)) there is not reason the pins are worth what they were. In fact old IM used to command $6000 but Stern sold it for $4800 a straight remake at the pro level cost was really welcomed.

I guess the Stern LE prices have been getting silly since STLE, GBLE etc.. Stern was testing the ceiling once GBLE was selling for more than asking price. But this is partly on Stern by limiting to 500 LE instead of 799 like STLE.

With MMr 1000 LE and unlimited regular editions it simply was supply exceeding demand. So Stern is limiting supply 500 GBLE or 240 BM66 LE they are manufacturing demand.

#219 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

that image above is the beginning of the so called money grab. Stern did not start this, JJP heck didn't start it with Woz RR edition, that was even *after* MMr was announced.
So MMr was $8000 plus shipping plus a few hundred more for colorization. So it's like $8500 ish for a pin with *about* as much going on (less really) than BM66 pro and much less than DI standard edition.
People say MM is a top rated game but that doesn't make it essentially 70% more than a Stern pro at the time. What I'm talking is Met pro x 1.7 is $7995
It was the turning point. Before this Stern LEs were $6600 and Woz were $7000-7500. But just after the announcement there was a mega flood of people (us Pinsiders) who rushed to send in $1000 deposit. I was one, in fact there was a worry that I (we) might miss out on the LE edition.
In the cold light of day, I reflected that the gosh darn MM was not worth $8500 to me. I backed out and I'm sure scores of others did as well. Once they announced the LE would be followed by a regular unlimited edition, I decided that it was not really necessary to preorder one.
I decided that a remake is worth $7K maybe $6500 for AFM but just because the old ones are worth a lot like MB. Once they are remade ((like IMVE)) there is not reason the pins are worth what they were. In fact old IM used to command $6000 but Stern sold it for $4800 a straight remake at the pro level cost was really welcomed.
I guess the Stern LE prices have been getting silly since STLE, GBLE etc.. Stern was testing the ceiling once GBLE was selling for more than asking price. But this is partly on Stern by limiting to 500 LE instead of 799 like STLE.
With MMr 1000 LE and unlimited regular editions it simply was supply exceeding demand. So Stern is limiting supply 500 GBLE or 240 BM66 LE they are manufacturing demand.

I don't think MMr had anything to do with rising prices. Honestly, if anything, it saved the hobby from spiraling out of control on older titles. MM was fetching 11k+ when MMr was announced, AFM was $8k, etc, it actually reduced prices quite a bit on almost all titles. Yes, it cost $8k but that was $3k under what they were currently going for at the time.

#220 3 years ago

If it's any consolation tickets for the World Series are selling for $3-7k and tickets for Hamilton were $7k each. I believe a ticket for the NBA final in SF were as much as $20K.

I view these prices as when people were buying GBLE for $9k

It's no as if Stern could have sold 500 for $9000+ that was just the bleeding edge.

We are seeing these $15k pins as the ultimate test of what someone will pay. Likely Stern could have sold a one off for $50k if someone really wanted one.

If all World Series tickets were $3000+ they would not sell out.

#221 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I view these prices as when people were selling GBLE for $9k

My friend was looking at old Radio Shack catalogues online. A full build TRS-80 system from 1980, adjusted for inflation, is about $7500.
There is always a pricing sweet spot for the more well-off hobbyist.

#222 3 years ago

The increases in prices are our fault.

You and me. We did it.

I got in around 2009? Starting to forget now. Prices weren't as cheap as they had been in the early 00's, but I can still remember going to look at my first dmds.

Breakshot 1k
Funhouse 1800
Circuis Voltaire 2700
Shadow 1700

This was from someone who was overpriced THEN. Practically bordering on retail pricing. I was only there to look at breakshot because I was a broke college student who couldn't afford more. So I bought cheap machines and learned to work on them. Happy to flip them for a few hundred in profit. Bought nicer machines, found deals, flipped more machines and made more profit. Then came new blood. Middle aged guys with fat wallets willing to pay to relive their youth. Suddenly machines were jumping up in value ever few months. If someone sold it for 2k last week, why not ask 2100? Sold fast? Better ask more.

We did this. Every collector on here who raised the bar when selling their machine. Every time you wanted just a little more you were part of the problem. You were happy to sell off those 90's machines for inflated prices so you could buy that newly announced Stern. Who cares if they raised the price a bit because you just doubled your money off a WH20.

Yeah, Stern are greedy as snot and it will probably burn them. We have been just as greedy, but no one wants to admit it. So take a minute to consider how many machines you have sold. How many times you looked around at what they were selling for at the time and asked for more. Held out for just a little more and then learn to accept that you are just as at fault for what is happening.

#223 3 years ago
Quoted from rai:

that image above is the beginning of the so called money grab. Stern did not start this, JJP heck didn't start it with Woz RR edition, that was even *after* MMr was announced.
So MMr was $8000 plus shipping plus a few hundred more for colorization. So it's like $8500 ish for a pin with *about* as much going on (less really) than BM66 pro and much less than DI standard edition.

Your argument is based on the premise that the late WMS games were only equivalent to a Stern Pro of 2014-16... which goes against most conventional thinking.. because if that is true, that means Premiums and LEs are multiple levels above what was considered the gold-standard in pinball. When in practice most people consider the Pros 'stripped out' games that are actually below prior standards.. even Stern, let alone WMS/BLY. You gotta compare to premiums at least. When in reality there isn't a true 1 because of the shift to focus on features valued by home owners vs the operator focus of the past.

MMr was another high mark in pricing.. but not the first demanding a premium vs value. JJP set that mark first.. with people knowing WoZ was a startup product. MMr's initial flood of orders was in the wake of 'don't miss out' from MET LE, etc and the later announcement of standards under cut that.

If PPS announced any other title besides MM, they wouldn't have been able to demand that price for their first title.. we all know that.

#224 3 years ago
Quoted from dung:

I got in around 2009? Starting to forget now. Prices weren't as cheap as they had been in the early 00's, but I can still remember going to look at my first dmds.

Yep, people like to say that JJP and Stern are crooks and asking crazy prices but if the demand is there and people are willing to pay it then why not, its not as if the used market with all the honest angels in this hobby haven't doubled or tripled the prices of those same pins from 5/6 years ago because of demand, I gotta tell ya I love the hobby but encounter a lot of self righteous people who pretend to be fair when buying and selling but are full of shit, we all are guilty for the high prices and until people stop buying them it will continue.

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#225 3 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Yep, people like to say that JJP and Stern are crooks and asking crazy prices but if the demand is there and people are willing to pay it then why not, its not as if the used market with all the honest angels in this hobby haven't doubled or tripled the prices of those same pins from 5/6 years ago because of demand, I gotta tell ya I love the hobby but encounter a lot of self righteous people who pretend to be fair when buying and selling but are full of shit, we all are guilty for the high prices and until people stop buying them it will continue.

Yeah... while not always true, I've had quite a few transactions that have led me to agree with this.

-3
#226 3 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

So are you actually going to contribute to the topic of discussion, or just troll it with rhetoric?

I'm sorry. I forgot the topic was about spending money on used Lamborghinis instead of pinball machines.

Toss up a few more Gallardo pics.

#227 3 years ago

Here you go - a local used car sales yard here in Shenzhen China - welcome to communist China!!! LOL

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#228 3 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Yep, people like to say that JJP and Stern are crooks and asking crazy prices but if the demand is there and people are willing to pay it then why not, its not as if the used market with all the honest angels in this hobby haven't doubled or tripled the prices of those same pins from 5/6 years ago because of demand, I gotta tell ya I love the hobby but encounter a lot of self righteous people who pretend to be fair when buying and selling but are full of shit, we all are guilty for the high prices and until people stop buying them it will continue.

Yep...till the next big thing comes around. Remember this technology is in its infancy....

#229 3 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

So are you actually going to contribute to the topic of discussion, or just troll it with rhetoric?

Quoted from Sticky:

I'm sorry. I forgot the topic was about spending money on used Lamborghinis instead of pinball machines.
Toss up a few more Gallardo pics.

So then.... no. Ok.

The topic being discussed is that increasing prices is terrible for pinball. And I agreed that it is. Then I presented a real-world example of exactly how it's terrible for pinball. That the inflated price points have turned off some of us who can easily afford such toys, but have chosen to boycott the obvious collusion in pricing.

I made the mistake of stating where my money was going when I stated that I decided to reallocate my discretionary funds from the hobby of pinball, to an advertising medium that supports & promotes my arcade. This obviously upset you. Had I posted that I was using my money to buy a large array LED sign to promote my arcade, you likely would not have had such criticism.

So, I apologize for upsetting you, and I trust you'll enjoy the latest pinball offerings by supporting these price levels.

#230 3 years ago
Quoted from ExtremePinball:

So then.... no. Ok.
The topic being discussed is that increasing prices is terrible for pinball. And I agreed that it is. Then I presented a real-world example of exactly how it's terrible for pinball. That the inflated price points have turned off some of us who can easily afford such toys, but have chosen to boycott the obvious collusion in pricing.
I made the mistake of stating where my money was going when I stated that I decided to reallocate my discretionary funds from the hobby of pinball, to an advertising medium that supports & promotes my arcade. This obviously upset you. Had I posted that I was using my money to buy a large array LED sign to promote my arcade, you likely would not have had such criticism.
So, I apologize for upsetting you, and I trust you'll enjoy the latest pinball offerings by supporting these price levels.

I like the change in tone I'm seeing. You probably realized you were rubbing people the wrong way which is bad for the business of being an operator considering you have advertised your business locations here.

Spend your money on whatever you want to. Just like everyone here. Personally, I'll opt for multiple machines over a 12.5k single machine. You want to opt for a car. Whatever, either decision is smarter than allocating so much into a single machine.

Maybe I'll even spend some money on your machines next week. We'll see I guess.

#231 3 years ago

I thought competition was good for consumers and created lower prices. But the only competition here is between Gary and Jack and how much they can get for their Pins even though much hasn't changed in the last 15 years. Does adding a LCD, color changing LED's and some sound improvements really justify these insane prices. I don't think so. .... I've owned Pins with more originality than what we are seeing today. ----------------- Just don't see the value.

#232 3 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

I like the change in tone I'm seeing. You probably realized you were rubbing people the wrong way which is bad for the business of being an operator considering you have advertised your business locations here.
Spend your money on whatever you want to. Just like everyone here. Personally, I'll opt for multiple machines over a 12.5k single machine. You want to opt for a car. Whatever, either decision is smarter than allocating so much into a single machine.
Maybe I'll even spend some money on your machines next week. We'll see I guess.

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