Do you see any particular techniques that make operating pinball machines profitable? I've been trying to run the numbers and simply can't come up with any scenario where pinball makes the most money in any location. Seems like if I want to operate pinball machines I have to be willing to "take a loss" by not using that space for a more profitable game.

Welcome to reality.

It's a choice: Pinball or profit.

After 2 months of pinball consistently being the lowest earning category in my new arcade (including my massage chairs), I'm going to be trimming the pinball selection and purchasing games people actually want to put their money into.... basketball & skeeball.

Since you have all the answers.. why not pair up with any of the homebrew stuff going on and see your ideas come to life.

I'm not saying Ben Heck is the world's greatest genius... but if anyone were trying to stick to the mantra you just outlined.. he would fit that mold greatly.. and yet.. didn't end up where you propose.

Has it been significantly different in profile vs your NYNY location?

League and tournament play has been a huge catalyst for our local location (especially our selfie league that started this past January). They went from 5 pins on the brink of leaving because they were earning nothing, to now 9 pins and growing.

The locations in downtown Chicago that have joined the city team league has also been a huge success (http://www.pinballchicago.org/).

Promotions that involve getting a group of people together to hang out and play will work wonders compared to just having games sit there and hoping casual people will randomly stop in and play them enough to make the investment worthwhile.

As far as square footage utilization compared to other coin-op amusement equipment, pinball is still a tough sell even with these promotional activities. IMO there needs to be a complete shift in the philosophy of pinball design to give it a chance to really earn some significant dollars. This thread touches on that a bit - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/maybe-its-time-to-build-a-simpler-pin

It could make sense for the location to do it as a loss leader to bring people in for F&B sales.

Only true if pinball brings as many people in as other choices and they spend as much. Sadly, they don't. One number I've heard is pool tables out-earn even the top pinball machines by a factor of ten. Obviously that varies by location.

When pinball makes less than other options you have fewer pinballs on location. Higher prices make them an even worse choice.

Yet another way increasing prices are terrible for pinball.

The collector market is being challenged with the recent substantial increase in price. It's all about bang for the buck, fun,
reliability, and exclusivity to some degree. Most people with substantial net worth, revert back to common sense regarding
value and cost, the reason they have what they have. I had planned to buy every NIB, for the next several years. Money
was not an issue, but now unrealistic price gouging is an issue. BM66SLE $$15,000, with a build quality less than my WOZECLE, plays on the intelligence of every buyer. My current collection consist of all HUO , or me buying NIB, and if
I never purchased another , life is good. About 20-30 of my collector friends with 20+ pins agree completely .
Stern and JJP should rethink their market speculation.

My sentiments exactly.

As an operator, and a collector, I was in for a pro and an LE version of every Stern/JJP release. No more. I don't make any real money as an operator, and the extreme recent price hikes have turned me off as a collector.

Agreed. I am not in the same league as Banker, but I have bought 7 NIB in the last 4.5 years. I just cannot justify the current prices though, especially with how hard hit I get with the exchange rate, and then GST. Every $100.00 US extra costs me $140.00 CDN. If BM66 Premium is $7800 shipped, that is $10,750 CDN (probably more like 11k once foreign exchange fees), and I doubt it would be even as low as that given the monopoly the one Canadian distributor has and how they like to jack up their prices.

I generally don't like to bitch about prices. Everyone has their own threshold, some of my friends think the amount I pay for any pin, new or used is completely insane. But unfortunately price increases just keep shrinking the pool of potential buyers, and now I am out.

For all of you who are still in, enjoy, and post lots of videos...

If Banker's out, then there's your sign!

As an operator don't pins resell for more than those other money makers after a few years?

Let's say you bought a Stern pro for 5k or some similarly priced ticket/toy dispenser that out earns pins and sold after 3 years. Even if the Stern went over like Avengers you'd still get back 3k. Would you get that back with the average ticket/toy dispenser on the resale market?

I have no idea about the prices of other gaming machines, so this is a legit curiosity.

The problem also isnt just the cost of the machine. Repairs and up keep also all factor in to this also.

If you buy a 5k pin and it pays for its self in three years and then you sell it for 3k yes you are ahead 3k, however if you apply the same situation to a claw machins its looks like thsi. Buy a 5k claw machine, pretty much gurenteed it pays for its self in the 1st year, then profit for the next 2 years. Sell claw machine for around 1k (ball park figures). You come out way ahead this way, plus claws require no maitence other then putting stuffed animals in.

These drastic price hikes are going to do some really wonky things to the secondary market. i think we're already seeing it happen.

Bingo. No one likes being shafted. Even those that can afford it need to be able to justify some sort of value.

Guilty.

Count yourself lucky you pay 5% in taxes while most of Canada still pays 11% +
Yo Stern, I know the exchange rate is not your fault but gouging prices is....I'm out too.

First of all, it's really a poor analogy to compare pinball machines to a ticket redemption game, as it provides not only a physical prize for playing, but can be made more exciting, with more creativity than the simple limitations that a rectangular wooden box can provide.

As an arcade operator and arcade owner, I have more than enough physical & mathematical data to provide a real world analysis, not just a wild guess. I only compare pinball revenue to games without product or prizes.

For example: In a location on the strip, my $13,000 shooting game makes $916 per week while my $5,000 pinball machine averages $114 per week. I have to service the pinball machine at least once per month. I adjusted the guns once in a year in a half of operation and at 8x the usage.

In my arcade downtown, my $5,000 basket ball game makes $450 per week, while my $8,000 pinball machine makes $34 per week.

The basketball game will go at least a year without needing service, while the pinball machine requires at least monthly maintenance + repairs. All factored in, I don't care if I just put that basketball game in a dumpster in 5 years.

As much as I love pinball, I'm still running a business. And with the arcade, I have partners, so we may need to actually cut back our pinball selection for the good of the business.

Gee JJP and Stern what do you think of them apples now?
Stern thinks it can live off of 80 Super Duper Pooper LE Sales...
Jack $9K "let's call them LE's" with 600 other versions....black arrow, smaug, Le, Thorin, Bilbo etc versions.....

But but but in a few years you can sell that routed pin for more than it's worth. So what it takes in is all profit.

LTG : )

I visited your downtown location a couple of weeks ago. I'm curious: Do people tend to play the basketball game alone, or in groups of 2 or more?

How is that relevant. The basketball game makes $450 per week the pinball $34, yet the basketball is cheaper.

I'm genuinely curious. I'm wondering what's different about basketball compared to pinball for his customers.

I imagine pinball players mostly play alone, since the way he has them arranged doesn't allow groups to form around them. It would be interesting to know if the more profitable machines were primarily played in groups.

Are we discussing game placement to account for a minimum of 1223.5% difference? If the wind blows to the left slightly the golfer will miss the green by 1000 yards?

If I was actually trying to make money on route, pinball would be one of my last choices. Crane machines, basketball, redemption, even old arcade games would be my preference. It only makes financial sense if it brings people in to spend other money...however, it would have to make a ton of money in order to make it worth it over the other options.

Just to be clear, I'm hoping to learn something interesting from an experienced operator. I'm not trying to win cheap arguments or zing anyone.

I have the deed to my mansion rubber banded together with 17 pink slips to my car collection in my safe resting against my collection of perpetual motion oysters which is flanked by bricks of the old hundred dollar bills with the small faces that I keep just for fun....And I'm still not gonna pay these prices!

My Daytona USA Twin shows $200,000+ in the audit log, now show me a pin that can do that!?!

The sad thing is, I don't think that Stern and JJP give a shit about the secondary market! They are only concerned with sales off their production line.

Hmmmm interesting... you mean to tell me that the people building new pinball machines (which provide their income) are more concerned with selling those new machines over and above what happens between hobbyists selling used pinball machines (which provides no direct income), wow I had no idea.

I think that anybody building new pins in this market must have a passion for the product because it is too niche for anybody to just jump in and make their fortune doing it. Better realize that ultimately they are trying to make a living and GROW a business/industry not a "hobby". Building business based a hobby is tough because it is too volatile, where changes in life can easily eliminate the disposable income needed to make a purchases, especially at these price points.
Stern builds 3-4 new games a year, I don't think they care whether they sell those 3-4 to the same guy (collector/hobbyist) or to 4 different people (individuals who just want one in the game room and never heard of Pinside) ... why should they?
How many Pinsiders would make real sacrifices in the name of the hobby (or should we take care of ourselves/family first)? Machines still in boxes aren't supporting the hobby, anybody out there want to support the hobby and sell me a NIB TRON LE for the original MSRP??

What would you like them do differently, just sell new games for less? NOBODY here knows the Stern financials and there has been a lot of guesses, from educated to completely ignorant, but how can we know if lower prices is a really good long term strategy if they can't grow the business at those margins? Is the short term fix to satisfy frustrated buyers going to be good long term fix for either the company or the industry? Would that fix everything (or anything) in secondary market or is that also driven by greed to some extent?

No need to keep beating a "dead horse" We get it, you are in the not buying crowd. Thanks for that

And you are in a phenomenal market with non stop traffic.

I marvel at anybody trying to route pinball machines for a profit.

Look at those numbers above, as a "business" person, it seems pinball machines are a terrible waste of space by comparison.

Once they price operators out I won't be able to try out new machines for a few bucks. I would never buy a $9+K machine unless I got a few games in first. If I can't test drive I ain't buying, as simple as that.
Add in the sub par quality of many new games (code,ghosting, poor workmanship, bad optos, lack of support,...) and manufacturers will soon find the price ceiling for their products.

Most customers don't understand how to play pinball and pretty much everybody can shoot hoops.

The only issues i've ever had with my hoop fevers besides minor stuff like missing balls, dead flood lamps, and torn nets, is a full magazine on the dbv.

I spend hundreds of dollars on replacement pinball parts every year and some games can be a real bitch to keep running. The only reason i operate them is because the location owner wants them. There is no way i'm paying 9k for a machine with such low and slow ROI compared to everything else.

It's pretty frustrating when your only service calls are for broken pinball machines when they are the least earning equipment on route. This is why major street ops and arcades rarely have them on the floor anymore. If new pinball machines earned money then places like D&B and Chuck E Cheese would still be buying them.

Groups or singles is irrelevant as we get both into the arcade. The difference is a lifetime of exposure. Americans are exposed to basketball, in real life and on TV, at a very young age, and then on a regular basis throughout their lives. There's one in Chuck E Cheese, in Gameworks, in D&B, in the local laser tag place. Put the ball into the basket. No deep rule sets, no buttons to press, no thinking to be done. Just put the ball into the basket. On the other side, most people in my arcade, and at the arcade in NYNY, have NEVER played a pinball machine before. They are simply attracted to the recognition of the titles.

Stern and other manufacturers should care very much about the state of the industry. That means they are aware of who is buying their games and why (profit or home entertainment). The more profit a game makes, the more operators will buy it and put it on location. The more games on location, the more people will see it and play it. Some of those people will become pinball hobbyists and buy their own games.

Stern isn't in control over earnings on location. That's society passing over pinball in favor of other entertainment options. What can a manufacturer do to slow or reverse that trend? I'm sure that's been discussed. The Stern Army is one attempt ( Stern, you need wireless methods to collect that audit data! IoT stuff is cheap enough now, put it standard in every game and use software updates on older games so the operator can install a USB dongle permanently and aggregate data from all their Stern games, then send it to you as part of their monthly preventative maintenance package. Put key component testing in the software too so you can flag suspect components before they impact earnings!) Supporting the IFPA is another way.

We pinheads can help by running and participating in leagues & tournaments, trying to get new people interested in pinball (novice leagues and ?????), supporting location pinball, attending shows, sending press releases about pinball events to your local newspaper or community bulletin board.

Increasing prices of a NIB machine to $9k puts it beyond the point of financial viability for location pinball. Prices at that level cut out a good percentage of home buyers as well. Who is left that will buy at $9k? Operators willing to lose money and still route games and wealthy pinheads.

I think increasing prices to the current level is terrible for pinball.

Thanks for the well thought-out response.

I'm in the process of building a restaurant with bowling and a game room. The consultant I hired to help me has a lot of data that game rooms can't succeed if they don't provide a social experience. So I'm wondering if at least part of the problem is the way pinball tends to require playing alone.

Your other comment touches on my other theory: Pinball is more cerebral (or seems that way) and may not target the same market that the other games do.

What do you think would happen if you took out half your pins so people could stand between them and watch while others played?

Pushing me straight to Spooky and Heighway.

I'll be just fine without Stern or JJP in my collection.

And If you complain about it they kick you out...

Seriously, fuck Stern. What arrogant pricks.

I agree on this. If the Banker ain't buying NIB, its time to rethink the pricing....

At least wait until I visit your arcade later this month. I'll get that pinball revenue up!

Of course they also went out of business selling at that price and that was when there were a lot more locations out there. Still though, you would think than an increase of 2k would be enough for them to have a healthy profit, placing a game like that closer to 6700 in todays market. If DI had been placed there my pre-order money would be in today...

Time to start hitting the pinball shows.

LTG : )

I do think manufacturers care about the industry but if Stern intends to sell (made up numbers here) 4 new games for a total of 20,000 pinball machines a year it doesn't much matter if it is 5000 buyers@4each or 20,000 buyers@1each as long as it continues every year (and it does need to continue). That was my point.
But to your point, over time the reason for the purchase does matter to the manufacturer. If Stern can continue to build and sell at a price point that engages operators who keep games in the public eye it could certainly add to the home-use buyer pool. If they price-out operators they will need to develop a way to engage home use buyers at new levels. So sure they need to be savvy about the market but either way 20K pins is 20K pins. Regardless of the MSRP, if they fail to sell what is required to be profitable and grow then the buyer demographic really isn't relevant. If we choose not to buy new at current prices it may force manufacturers to lower prices ... it may also force them out of business.

I guess I'm supposed to apologize to the hardcore group for not making a personal effort to see it "grow" but I can't feel guilty about it because we are all in it for our own reasons. I bought my first machine for nostalgia and now I own for convenience because locally there is no location play. The "hobby" isn't going anywhere and certainly it isn't going to vanish due to the lack of new machines due to high prices. Tournament play may suffer, that certainly needs an infusion of new players and or pins over time but it isn't of interest to me so it is up to others to nuture and grow it for the pleasure of those who participate. Certain buyers/collectors may be discouraged by a lack of new pins and vanish (especially the LE speculators who buy and resell for profit) but others will fill in. Will it cause older pin prices to skyrocket? Nope. Could they rise? Certainly in the short term but long term no, especially as people drop out.

Is the current pricing "bad for pinball" yes and no ... it is all about perspective.

Typically when businesses celebrate they give back. They don't try to ram crap down the throats of an industry or customer base.

You know, to hear that Stern gave crap to Nate at Coast 2 Coast for saying what we are all thinking (in a rather tame way, IMO)... is completely lame.

What's amazing to me is that we've been standing on the edge of a price line for a long time. Companies are duking it out for customers... just imagine, for a moment, if Stern said "We are going to give away a Super LE to 30 past customers. This is our celebration of 30 years and we want to say Thank You to our fantastic customers for keeping the pinball dream alive and well. All you need to do is prove that you've bought a game NIB in the last 30 years and you'll be entered to win."

Bam. Instant love for Stern.

Pinball is coming back to life big time it's a good thing but the prices are way to high but I still love pinball

I had to laugh when I read about Stern offering "1 Lucky" person a chance to buy a Super Ultra LE. Send us a video now of why you think you're worthy to buy a 15k machine. Seriously? My immediate thought was go &$"@ yourself.

What I found even more sad was the videos I saw on YouTube of pinballers sending in their "audition tapes" to chomp at the bit.

For 15k Adam West, Gomez, and Gary Stern can personally deliver & set up the game, give me a signed bluray set of the entire batman tv series, pose for pics of me taking it up the #%*, and a voucher for 50% off their next "your the Top 1%" pin release.

The only way this madness will stop is if all of us collectively quit drinking Stern's Koolaide & stop opening our wallets. But of course that won't happen & there will be outliers that screw it up for the rest of us.

I make good money but I've been priced out of the nib scene for over a year now. Didn't figure we'd all have to make a 7 figure income to afford a stripped down Pro. BS.

Market correction is inevitable. It can't get here soon enough IMHO. I welcome it.