If you don't like the price, don't buy. If you still REALLY like the game wait for a beater on the secondary market and see if you can find it in your price range. It's basically how the rest of the world economy works.

Why are you surprised, they "invite" you to buy their $15000.00 rehash of BDK! F'n craziness

Myth BUSTED

True but in 1997, Circus Voltaire was what, $3200? It doesn't have less in it than any game shown at Expo (save the LCD screens). Figuring inflation over the time, that $3600 would be equivalent to the buying power of $4700 today. Yes, everythign has gone up, but not as exponentially.

Hell, try to find a used CV for $4700. Go ahead, I'll wait

Chris

It almost feels like to me that JJP fell for the "trap" of the BM66 price hike, when that was just for a small limited release. We know Aerosmith will have a Pro model, and the Premium and LE prices will fall back to closer to historical Stern pricing (with an increase, but not BM66 levels).

Aerosmith Pro will probably still be in the $5k's (and possibly low $5ks)... a huge price difference between it and every other competitor.

Not to mention, Stern has how many Pro models for $5k still for sale?

Stern will have that entire market for themselves.

At least Stern will bring back Pro models with their next "core" game. But with the huge price jump from spike 2/color lcd, I wonder what a Pro shipped will cost. $5800?

I have a feeling after a less than impressive Hobbit and totally missing the target on Dialed In, Stern already may have that market to themselves

I just picked up a World Challenge Soccer!

On the plus side, they seem to agree that all the complaining isn't productive.

Yes all the new le,premiumn are over priced, I'm probly done getting anything over $5500 ,it's only pinball and at those new prices which will keep going up, I will start to play new games on location again, and just keep or trade with the machines I have ...because every pin I have will be worth more and have great trade value....pins for the rich only

Another point is when the economy crashes again, prices will drop and pinball companies will go out of buissnes, have to lower prices or be stuck with machines that only people with big pockets can buy!

you're right, but not at this rate.

Tron LE came out in 2011 for $6k. Same game in 2016 dollars is $6, 424. There is NO Stern LE for that price, because Stern knows they can get more.

Jersey Jack wizard of oz, 2011. Price tag = $6500. Same price in 2016: $7,000. So where's my fully featured Jersey jack pro version of Dialed in for $7k? Heck, let's throw another $500 for a couple extra LCD's and a camera. Where's my $7500k pro version?

No complaints here about prices just the average money making Joe is priced out already..and when all machines nib are $10,000 AND UP IT IS A DONE DEAL ,LOTTO WINNERS AND MILLIONAIRES ONLY crazy prices keep goin up, good luck to the hobby!

That's not true you can buy a 4 TB hard drive for around $100
You can buy a Blu-ray player for around $40
You can buy a very nice smart flatscreen 48" tv for less than $400
Computers for less than $500

Etc..

Every single one of those is most likely "Made in China".

Just sayin'

Back in the day it would cost me $400 for an entry level CPU (and those were 1990's dollars) now I can buy an entire computer for less than $500. Just saying.

Makes no difference where it's built these things are cheaper now than ever.

In fact if you figure shipping and profits some of these prices are insane, a calculator for $2 or whatever? My gosh that's cheap. Calculators used to cost hundreds of dollars some more than a thousand dollars.

Obviously I have no problem with "Made in China" since I own a factory here, but there are plenty who still do.

Oh, and $2 for a calculator "IS" insane, I couldn't mould the buttons on one for $2 - even in my Chinese factory. I really don't know how they make some things for the money and I'm here on the spot!!!

I'm just making a point, back in the 60's a calculators could cost as much a new car.

I once bought a black and white laser printer for $600 around 20 years ago that's was like 2 weeks pay, can you imigine 2 weeks pay for a printer?

One of my buddies dads bought one of the first VCRs in the early eighties and it cost over 500 bucks, according to him. When they quit making VCRs they cost what? 40 bucks or so?

How many weeks pay should be allowed for a pinball machine purchase?

Anything less than 2 month's salary is an insult to your family.

Higher prices for new games will support higher pricing on older games. The problem is, 9k is higher than high. A 9k priced title had better be near perfect. JJPs pins have not been perfect and Dialed In, while having potential, has some irritating sound effects and the theme.... egads.

That said, pinball manufacturing is not all that lucrative. Williams left the market to do electronic slots for Vegas because their margins were so much better on the slot games.

Well, sure, but you're talking about things that involve advancing technology. Printers got easier to make because the technology improved drastically, but pinball is still old-fashioned mechanical parts with custom art and design and creation, made by what are essentially boutique companies. It helps that printers are manufactured in the tens of thousands by hordes of crying Chinese children, so maybe Stern and JJP should band together and rent a few of those little suckers to bring the price down.

Au contraire.

Pinball machines have just been under priced for the longest time. These are no longer being made for an operator to put on route to try to make a meager living.

There is a whole new breed of pinball collectors with more money than sense begging for specific titles and licenses. And to please those kind of people takes cash. Serious cash.

Supply and Demand......You always sell at prices the market can support. If there are enough people willing to buy these machines at these newer higher prices then the manufacturer is making a wise decision. Time shall tell if the market can support these prices. It's basic economics. A pinball machine is a luxury good. The economy is strong right now, so demand, and therefore prices will rise for luxury goods.

Supply and Demand determines pricing. Problem is, pinball is not such a big deal anymore - certainly not like it was in its heyday. Case in point, Williams left the industry to pursue the more lucrative electronic slots market. If runs are under several thousand units, then manufacturers will struggle to spread out licensing and production costs.

I think that the 'collector' part of the industry will slowly die as we old timers die off. The only way to forestall that is to change the business model. High reliability, low costs, and less floor space can all be achieved with something like Virtual Reality and a physical flipper setup. Purists, however, will fight this to the bitter end. There are also challenges with the VR headgear. Who wants to wear a headset that someone with head lice just used....

the biggest problem is , is the cost for an operator. if its too much for a home buyer its one thing. a cost being to high so they cant be purchased by an operator to put out in the public for normal people to play who cant afford games or have room period is who becomes exempt from playing. less exposure overall. the only operator who can afford to pay over 5k for a pin is one who loves pinball and is just trying to keep it alive in the public. All operators know the newest redemption games (self prize even) or newest giant screen lcd shooter or driver (for the same cost) would out earn the pinball machine in pretty much any venue.
its just not business wise. $4500 is the max I'm going on a new pin for location. would love to get a game like dialed in and put on location for all to enjoy, but at 9K plus for the cheapest model, only rich nationwide operators can afford that.

Do you think if they went with lessor bands, movies or TV shows, they could cut the cost and make operator friendly machines at a lessor price and people might still play them?

It was a joke. Lessor themes. lol

idk but if i have to pay up to 10k for a new pinball for location that makes 50 to $100 a week for being the "NEW" pin out there, id rather buy a big bass wheel or other hot new prize game and make a grand a week .
or a Jurassic world sit in video game.
pinball needs be less to make sense (or dollars in this case).
shoot, i paid $3750 for NIB shipped with bill validator for potc, spiderman, wof, family guy.
then ever since then prices shot way up.
meanwhile, new pinball machines make the same or less, even when maintained on location very well like some of us do.
raising the price way way up for the games esp in a short period of time doesn't help.

I've have played on location at a dollar a game and have seen others play and quit fast when their game or their kids game only last a minute or two, like play one and gone, soon when it's costing $2, $3 dollars a play, pinball will definately die out..price of play goes up with price of machine.

You make $1000 a week on your 'hot new prize games?' WOW, you would think that everyone would be jumping out to operate those kind of games then!!! I think your example is the absolute best scenario, I've never heard of games making that much unless in the most elite locations.

You are right, I don't even make close to that operating pinballs, but one thing I can tell you is that a $15,000 Jurassic World arcade game is going to be worth sweet fuck all after about 3/4 years, where pinballs have a very low depreciating value.

I can operate a 24 year old Addams family and still make the same every month, it's not even close to your numbers, but when I bought it, it was worth a third of what it is now, and it still looks and plays nearly the same...

9K is definitely bad for operators and I won't buy anything at that price point. Even 5k is too much, but it's somewhat tolerable. But you are certainly right, you need to love pinball to try to make it work from a business standpoint. There are easier ways to make money, but it is pretty fun.....most of the time.

There is nothing wrong with high prices.

If demand falls because of high prices, the prices will fall with them.

No.....big......deal!

Next topic...

The boobs of Babylon?

no chance, the virtual machines all sucked - i'd rather sell my eye to buy a table than play that rubbish!

High prices on tech usually are set to pay for R&D. Hard to equate that to pinball simply because each title is a new design.

What will be interesting to watch is the used market as all of these super high priced pins work their way into it. They won't be cheap by any means.

I will say this: Stern's idea of celebrating their existence by selling wickedly over priced machines and tickets to a party where they charge for alcohol and food is absolutely absurd.

Huge swing and miss on potentially buying amazing amounts of goodwill within the community by doing something special for collectors.

Met Pro is my first and last NIB purchase. These prices are so far out of control, i'll just save up my money until the next inevitable crash. This cannot be sustainable as is. There are only so many rich guys with disposable income in this hobby and operators are going to be dropping out next. Stern is going to be sorry.

With location pinball almost non existent now, it's kind of sad we look at a great original game like Dialed In and need to debate whether it's worth $9000 or not.

I'm sure everyone would love it if it were $1 per play at the milk bar down the road.

But that's sooooo last century.

you can buy a calculator for $1

image (resized).png

It will have earned so much money in that time you could just throw it in the garbage

If Terminator Salvation is any indication, the residual value on Raw Thrills games actually hold up pretty well compared to most vids. That game is now 7 years old and we have some corporate games pulled off rev share that have sold for great money on the secondary market. I am insanely biased though.

I'm starting to think the reason why we haven't seen the next B/W remake is because they are testing the waters on this new pricing with expectations of charging 10-12,000 for the next one.

People are already forgetting that JJP was charging 9K+ for THSE and the WOZRR. Not a surprise that they just raised the base price a little. I think they made a lot of good choices redoing the game platform also. Lots of people are going to buy Dialed In. What you will see is people are going to be buying less games overall though. Pay more for 1 and don't buy as many in a year as you used to. So unless there is a large influx of new buyers all of these companies are going to be fighting over buyers that are not purchasing as many games. Factor in more companies making games and we are going to have to see large growth in the number of people buying games or several are going to go under.

Personally I'm not going to pay what these new games cost. It's just a toy and I can live with out it. Lots of older cheaper games that are just as fun. I don't buy them to impress people so I really don't care about having something early or having to have everything that comes out. My game room is close to full and I really like most of what I have so it's a great time to just shut off the new game purchases and enjoy what I have. Lots of other things that I can do with that money anyway.

Understand that this is not because of the inherent nature of Pinball but because the manufacturers are still using buggy whips.

Lift the playfield on a pin and you will still find point-to-point, hand-soldered wiring rather than standardized driver and sense boards that all talk to a CPU along with mass-produced wiring jumpers that are identical from one machine to another (thus, you need only stock a handful for a few different lengths under the playfield itself.) Other than the individualized toys on a given playfield there is no reason whatsoever that essentially all of what goes into a game could not be completely interchangeable from one machine to another and be nearly 100% self-diagnosing as well. The "current" model was arguably defensible in the world of EM machines but it ceased being so the moment solid state driver and CPU boards showed up -- yet here we are, 30+ years later, and the old model remains. What's even more offensive is that mechanical rollover switches and similar, all of which are high-failure rate compared against solid state and dirt cheap alternatives are still nearly 100% of what you find in these games (with notable exceptions in the ball trough and similar.) This trashes maintainability and further drives up operator cost.

Technological innovation drives up productivity and down cost if it is allowed to happen. It fails in the medical arena due to monopolies that are quite-arguably felonious (in the US anyway) but in the pinball world it's simply that nobody has bothered to do it and take on the other guys, destroying their business.

In a word, meh. Stern, JJP and the rest have all asked for what's coming, and it WILL come. Either the price escalations will destroy the industry on their own or someone will eventually show up and take both Stern and JJP out behind the outhouse and leave them both bow-legged for a month. I could easily design and build the entire componetry up using only commodity hardware (read: dirt cheap on a per-unit basis), write the code to drive it (which is trivially easy, really, again on commodity hardware) so building a "game" on top of that would be what amounts to a configuration file that it loads on start and likely wind up with a BOM cost under $2k. Slap a 50% margin on it at the distributor level and both JJP and Stern are bankrupt immediately.

Why haven't I done it? I'm not setting up a firm in the US today under the current political environment. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't assist if someone else wants to, for the right price.