(Topic ID: 171125)

Increasing Prices: Good for Pinball


By brundaged

3 years ago



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  • 294 posts
  • 95 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by LTG
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There are 294 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 6.
#251 3 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

How can someone be priced out of a $8K game like "Dialed In" that has new state of the art innovation plus a LCD, but turn around and buy an outdated 20 year old remake for the same price???

Who here has done that? I think the people who buy 8k remakes are the same people who would actually buy a game like dialed in.

#252 3 years ago

Time will tell, demand will dictate. Here's a good outlooks of exactly what will happen next. Aerosmith is next and just because it will have the new LED display or whatever it is this game will cost on average $200 more than the last regular pricing. This means a street pro price of $5200. How many of you are buying it? Not me. Not anything over $5K. But the thousands who have more disposable income that do buy it will keep the viscous cycle going. I knew getting into this hobby that it is expensive but we all have our limits. That's ok, I can start pumping my hard earned money into my muscle car instead. She's been neglected and it's time I get some mods for it instead.

#253 3 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

How can someone be priced out of a $8K game like "Dialed In" that has new state of the art innovation plus a LCD, but turn around and buy an outdated 20 year old remake for the same price???

Most of us that are smart with our money won't pay 8k for any game. Old or new.

#254 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Most of us that are smart with our money won't pay 8k for any game. Old or new.

If "being smart" with money means investing for financial returns, I guess I'm not sure why anyone would buy pinball at all.

#255 3 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

If "being smart" with money means investing for financial returns, I guess I'm not sure why anyone would buy pinball at all.

I think you missed the point he was trying to make. He's not talking about pinball as an investment but an overpriced toy at that point. I'm sure Dialed In will sell just not in the quantities expected. Same thing with Stern. I really believe they are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Sure they will sell high end games to people with high cash flow but once those guys run out of room then they'll all be fu*ked because the 90% regular joes like myself who love pinball but are priced out will not come back to the fold so easily.

#256 3 years ago

Maybe this has already been mentioned, but if prices are reaching the point where there is a very large profit made on each machine, that's an invitation for other companies to enter the market with lower priced offerings. More competition would be good for pinball.

#257 3 years ago
Quoted from yuriijos:

I knew getting into this hobby that it is expensive but we all have our limits. That's ok, I can start pumping my hard earned money into my muscle car instead. She's been neglected and it's time I get some mods for it instead.

You can't buy older used games? I've bought 19 games and all but 2 were used. Just picked up a really fun DMD game from the late 90's for 2k.

#258 3 years ago

Yes of course I could. I am at my limit of 4 machines so I don't think I will be trying to get rid of my newer collection for older games. Been there, done that, like the fact that I don't mess with maintenance etc. Plus there are only a handful of games that are in the price range you speak of that even grab my interest. Was basically speaking of NIB games in general and this thread.

#259 3 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

the 90% regular joes like myself who love pinball but are priced out will not come back to the fold so easily.

Smaller producers will fill the gap for less expensive machines.

Maybe this is heresy, but I think Stern is the manufacturer most at risk in the new competitive landscape. They're getting squeezed between JJP--which produces actual higher end machines with more features--and the boutique producers. Plus they just invested in a big new facility, which can't be cheap to pay off.

#260 3 years ago

Stern will be fine. They are making profits hand over fist. JJP is the fragile new company. If people stop buying because of his bullshit pricing. JJP will be the one not to survive it. He's the cause of all this massive profit margin crap anyway.

-1
#261 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

JJP is the fragile new company. If people stop buying because of his bullshit pricing. JJP will be the one not to survive it. He's the cause of all this massive profit margin crap anyway.

See, it's this position that doesn't make sense to me.

JJP is actually producing high end machines, but at relatively small volume. Stern seems to be producing better but less advanced machines but charging just as much, and at high(er) volume.

JJP is in a strong position in the market. Stern is the one with market share to lose, and they're getting hit from both the low and high end of the market simultaneously.

Blaming JJP for what you don't like about the state of the market is just bewildering.

11
#262 3 years ago

until JJP reaches at least 4 strong titles, they are a fragile company. They are not doing the numbers anywhere near what stern is. Not only is stern making money on the new game they release, they are making money on past titles that are still selling NIB like MET, GOT, KISS and other runs. Plus side stuff like MMR. At any given moment they are running 4 games at a time. JJP has problems getting 1 game out at a time.

And JJP is the sole reason the market is like it is. Apprently you were not around when WOZ was announced. When Jack announced WOZ at a $6500 preorder price. Stern was like....We can charge that much and people still buy? So stern raised their price but kept under jack. Then jack raised to $7500 for WOZ. Stern followed suit. and so on. So tell me again how JJP isn't the reason all the prices of shit are through the roof?

Competition is suppose to warrant better quality and lower prices. Not a bidding war to see who can charge the most and get away with it. That is what is going on with Stern and JJP right now. If we get some powerful 3rd parties involved that really start taking business away from Stern and JJP, then we will see prices go the way they should be.

#263 3 years ago

I'm out for a little while on NIB. I used my GB Premium money on a nice SafeCracker. No regrets at all.

#264 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

.
And JJP is the sole reason the market is like it is. Apprently you were not around when WOZ was announced. When Jack announced WOZ at a $6500 preorder price. Stern was like....We can charge that much and people still buy? So stern raised their price but kept under jack. Then jack raised to $7500 for WOZ. Stern followed suit. and so on. So tell me again how JJP isn't the reason all the prices of shit are through the roof?

I was there when JJP started and own a WOZ.

From your description it sure sounds like Stern is who you should be mad at, if being mad at anyone makes sense.

#265 3 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

I was there when JJP started and own a WOZ.
From your description it sure sounds like Stern is who you should be mad at, if being mad at anyone makes sense.

Jacks the one holding the reigns when it comes to price hikes. He's always the first to do it and keeps doing it. Stern stays under him to stay the cheapest game in town.

Problem with Jack is. He has money and always has. Knows nothing about budgeting or reasonable prices for things. He boasts about 40k arcade game, and it doesn't matter the price as long as it makes money. For most ops. 40k for a game is a huge risk. Most cannot afford that, nor want to risk 40k on one game to make a cash cow. Location means a lot. More so than the game itself in a lot of cases. But Jack thinks everyone has money pouring out of their ass and can afford any price he throws out there. Hence why he went so far overbudget with WOZ. Because he gets an idea in head, and starts throwing money at it to make it happen, without thinking about the overall costs and returns. So when he throws out a 9k price tag. He thinks he would pay that for a game that makes money on route, but most ops won't, and most of Jack customers are home buyers. He pretends to say that he's making games that will earn, but his real customers are home buyers. And as his prices increase, the people willing to support him decrease.

#266 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

until JJP reaches at least 4 strong titles, they are a fragile company. They are not doing the numbers anywhere near what stern is. Not only is stern making money on the new game they release, they are making money on past titles that are still selling NIB like MET, GOT, KISS and other runs. Plus side stuff like MMR. At any given moment they are running 4 games at a time. JJP has problems getting 1 game out at a time.
And JJP is the sole reason the market is like it is. Apprently you were not around when WOZ was announced. When Jack announced WOZ at a $6500 preorder price. Stern was like....We can charge that much and people still buy? So stern raised their price but kept under jack. Then jack raised to $7500 for WOZ. Stern followed suit. and so on. So tell me again how JJP isn't the reason all the prices of shit are through the roof?
Competition is suppose to warrant better quality and lower prices. Not a bidding war to see who can charge the most and get away with it. That is what is going on with Stern and JJP right now. If we get some powerful 3rd parties involved that really start taking business away from Stern and JJP, then we will see prices go the way they should be.

you know...that's what makes the JJP announcement of a. $8k price and the inclusion of a shaker (that probably costs them $60) eye rolling. Would I pay it? I never say never... but doubt it...

There is no way their BOM/labor is absolutely forcing the cost to these levels.

#267 3 years ago

I agree that rising prices are good for pinball. It allows manufacturers to explore new ideas and keep the doors open. It may not be good for pinball buyers wallets but it's good for the pinball community as a whole in my opinion.

#268 3 years ago

I started this thread hoping to have a good discussion about the market. I sincerely did not want a "debate", or to upset anyone.

I'm realizing now that Pinside is a poor forum for this kind of discussion. I take full responsibility--I usually don't participate in the forums and didn't realize what I was getting into.

Best wishes to all.

#269 3 years ago

more and more pinheads and OPs won't be able to buy nib with these crazy prices, not everybody can buy 2-3 pins every year.
at some point price will have to go down.

if i were in stern shoes, i wouldn't have raised the price when JJP jacked up the price for woz, best price win, selling more and making money on quantities and hurt JJP in the process.

dialed in at 8k for a standard edition is still way too much, if stern come back to the regular price 6.5k +/- for a premium it's gonna hurt JJP. first one who's gonna do that win.

#270 3 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

I started this thread hoping to have a good discussion about the market. I sincerely did not want a "debate", or to upset anyone.
I'm realizing now that Pinside is a poor forum for this kind of discussion. I take full responsibility--I usually don't participate in the forums and didn't realize what I was getting into.
Best wishes to all.

I dont blame you for bowing out, the whole discussion was pointless, any fool knows increasing prices is not good for pinball.

#271 3 years ago
Quoted from pinbum:

I dont blame you for bowing out, the whole discussion was pointless, any fool knows increasing prices is not good for pinball.

You said it.

#272 3 years ago

And yet, you didn't how out? I always enjoy that.

#273 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

And JJP is the sole reason the market is like it is.

Um, no.

Individuals who bought/buy games every time there has been price hike is the reason why the market is like it is!!!!!!

#274 3 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

Um, no.
Individuals who bought/buy games every time there has been price hike is the reason why the market is like it is!!!!!!

that's true. They are more of the cause than anything. And without the buyers, there wouldn't be a JJP. But he's the one setting the price bar. The suckers buying are encouraging the others to do the same. I understand that before that, Stern was just getting by. At $3400 delivered to your door, you could tell they needed a price increase. But to increase 100% almost overnight, and then 12% every year after, is just ridiculous. BOM didn't go up nowhere near those numbers.

#275 3 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

But he's the one setting the price bar.

So what do you think Jack should have charged for his higher end games? If you blame him for this increase, then at what level should he have been? And realistically, what level should he be at right now?

#276 3 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

So what do you think Jack should have charged for his higher end games? If you blame him for this increase, then at what level should he have been? And realistically, what level should he be at right now?

realistically, doubling his money is very reasonable and the company will still flourish. $5500-6k is more than enough. He's still doubling his money at this point. If you think his cost isn't around 3k per piece taking in account manufacturing, parts and programming. I think you would be very surprised. That's with 5000 units sold under that design/programming. The more units sold, the lower your cost is. As you only pay programming/designing once and broken up per units sold. Same with game specific parts. More quantities you can order at once the cheaper it is. Tooling and setup is only charged once.

#277 3 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

I started this thread hoping to have a good discussion about the market. I sincerely did not want a "debate", or to upset anyone.
I'm realizing now that Pinside is a poor forum for this kind of discussion. I take full responsibility--I usually don't participate in the forums and didn't realize what I was getting into.
Best wishes to all.

Kinda surprised, you could have sat and milked this *debate* for another few days at least. You've been beating that dead horse pretty hard trolling along the way, but throwing in the towel early? Props

-4
#278 3 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

I started this thread hoping to have a good discussion about the market. I sincerely did not want a "debate", or to upset anyone.
I'm realizing now that Pinside is a poor forum for this kind of discussion. I take full responsibility--I usually don't participate in the forums and didn't realize what I was getting into.
Best wishes to all.

The problem isn't Pinside. It's you.

Creating a dumb topic and then bowing out when it does not go the way you wanted it to is the forum equivalent of taking your ball and going home.

#279 3 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

The problem isn't Pinside. It's you.
...

The problem isn't Pinside or him it is actually people like you, internet warriors with a half-assed opinions on everything. You sure talk a bunch of crap for a guy that didn't even know how to load the balls into a pinball machine a year ago. You have been in both of the pricing threads stirring the pot and cause grief .. just move on, you have nothing to contribute except drama. (btw ever consider donating to the site so you have a place to troll?)

#280 3 years ago

Increased pricing is sure great for pinball. I just bought a HUO TF LE to fill in my last spot (I really like this game) for about 20% the price of a BM66. Thanks for making it so easy Stern and JJP I was waiting for Star Wars but at these prices... not gonna happen. I'll be happy with my collection as it stands and ill think about you guys once you get your heads out of your asses and come back to reality.

-1
#281 3 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

I started this thread hoping to have a good discussion about the market. ...

I think your only mistake is the title. Without an understanding of economic/market principles the statement "good for pinball" is lost on those who only see it as more $$ out of their pockets.
Increased prices does indicate a stronger marketplace in the eyes of the manufacturers which "should" be good for the industry because it could bring new manufacturers or growth and innovation from the current builders (while obviously it does price many buyers out of the market there is potential they could be replaced). There is always a cry for innovation from buyers but without a strong market there will be no risk taking by anybody who is building and selling pinball machines.

Is the current increase "good for pinball" or will it just be a blip as the manufacturers try to read the market place only to have them fall again? Was BM66 pricing an experiment, a strategy or a one-off? Only time will tell.

#282 3 years ago

As long as the HUO market continues to offer great deals a couple years after a game release, I'll be a buyer. I've been watching this nice Mustang slowly drop in price the past few weeks. I'll own Aerosmith eventually for sure, but will buy it from an original owner to save some cash at not through a distributor.

Capture (resized).PNG

#283 3 years ago
Quoted from Minneapolispin:

As long as the HUO market continues to offer great deals a couple years after a game release, I'll be a buyer. I've been watching this nice Mustang slowly drop in price the past few weeks. I'll own Aerosmith eventually for sure, but will buy it from an original owner to save some cash at not through a distributor.

Did you pick this up?

#284 3 years ago
Quoted from pinworthy:

I think your only mistake is the title

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion. The title created a magnet for people's anger about the subject. Ironically some of the better comments have appeared in the "terrible" thread.

Lesson learned.

#285 3 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion.

Fairly easy to edit a thread title if you want to. (I would have simply added a question mark at the end)

#286 3 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

How can someone be priced out of a $8K game like "Dialed In" that has new state of the art innovation plus a LED display, but turn around and buy an outdated 20 year old remake for the same price???

It's what you get for your money. MM is a known and beloved classic. You know what you're getting. Do you buy a used one or a brand new one for roughly the same price? MMr is relative to MM. Dialed In is relative to all the other new games one can pick from. No one knows if they like Dialed In enough to want to own it...and it's not a theme that grabs you by the nostalgias.

"Priced Out" doesn't always mean "Can't Afford It" ....sometimes it means "I don't see the value in that and don't want to pay that much for that"

#287 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinballlew:

Did you pick this up?

No, but at this price, it's getting tempting.

-2
#288 3 years ago
Quoted from pinworthy:

The problem isn't Pinside or him it is actually people like you, internet warriors with a half-assed opinions on everything. You sure talk a bunch of crap for a guy that didn't even know how to load the balls into a pinball machine a year ago. You have been in both of the pricing threads stirring the pot and cause grief .. just move on, you have nothing to contribute except drama. (btw ever consider donating to the site so you have a place to troll?)

You make a good point about being an Internet warrior with half-assed opinions by being an Internet warrior with half-assed opinions.

I'll keep writing how I feel about pricing in pricing topics. Increasing prices are great! I can't wait until machines hit $20k which will really show how healthy this hobby is.

If you wish to keep causing drama with posts such as this that's on you.

#289 3 years ago

What I can't understand is that there is a guy/girl who is obviously passionate about pinball and wanted to discuss a point of view. He/she makes some good points (we can debate on that but can't ignore all of it) and then next things you know, everyone wants to pile in. He/she not trying to not make it personal and debate on available facts and hardest of all, avoid logic fallacies (good list at https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/). I, for one, enjoy the conversation because I can see all points of view.

You can disagree but can we be civil about it. We do really need to have passive aggressive posts or "last post"? Afterall, I'm sure if we met somewhere, we'd discuss this over a few beers, laugh, play a few games and agree that MM is the best game ever made.

#290 3 years ago
Quoted from atwong:

What I can't understand is...next things you know, everyone wants to pile in

In hindsight I really should have known that money is too closely bound to people's passions to be discussed rationally in a public forum. Pinside is already famous for the price police, after all.

And I probably could've done a better job with the title and how I introduced the subject. The timing was wrong too: Better to wait for people to cool down after Expo.

But, I have the same weakness as everyone else: I tend to think other people work the way I do.

1 month later
#291 3 years ago

That's a good price on Mustang. I sure enjoyed my Pro.

3 weeks later
#292 2 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

I'm getting so angry about these prices I'm trying to contemplate how to pull that off.
Why do we need lcds and Bluetooth and so forth? Can't someone make 80's Bally style games for 4k? Great art, great gameplay, and great value.

Hey all.

I have looked through a good number of threads on DI and not once have I found anyone questioning the use of Bluetooth in the game. Is there any concern as to what happens when the world moves on from BT (or the specification evolves and in the shorter term, there are incompatibilities)? I think that interacting with the pin is a neat idea but not sure what happens in 10+ years.

#293 2 years ago

At these price points hope they finally ship with completed code ! Shane

#294 2 years ago
Quoted from dnaman:

Is there any concern as to what happens when the world moves on from BT

What happens when the pinball world moves beyond score reels ?

LTG : (

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