Allgood, you exactly represent me and my feelings in this hobby. I too have been buying fixer uppers since 1993. Only afford a new one every few years. I enjoy the satisfaction of bringing a turd back to new again. I just bought my first NIB ( ST pro) last year and was a stretch to pay $5K for it. Had to get my wife playing it at a bar and really interested in it to pull it off .
I'm never going to be able to open a brand new game again if they are $7K+, not that it would happen anytime soon anyways , but at $5K it was at least possible .
I believe there will be a short term increase in very nice collector quality pins in the $3K range so frugal folks can add something new to their collection every now and then.
JP

I wouldn't want a Dominos machine at any price. Or a Pabst Blue Ribbon..whats next?

A cardboard pinball machine design on a KickStarter crowdfunding campaign by an unknown designer, undefined content, and no estimated release date. The sky remains the limit for now.
New mediums, old tricks.

But, as far as real games...

Corporate sponsored pinball titles don't hurt the industry, they do help production, interest and enthusiasm, but only if offered at fair prices. Especially with their capital investment into manufacturers.

However, MRSP versus production cost must be compared.

Dominoes is very equitable in price, Pabst was not, as it was MSRP priced higher than WNBJM. The artwork package did not justify the price.

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Well stated...yes, there is the business side as we can all agree on...however pinball enthusiasts will always have an emotional side...why else are we all here on Pinside. To express our emotions good or bad. If we weren't passionate about the topic, it would be just a piece of machinery and there wouldn't need to be thousands and tens of thousands of posts on a single thread... My take, emotions are good...without them we may as well be dead. Without the bad emotions we cannot truly appreciate the good ones!

Rising prices for NIB machines is only good for the hobby as long as used machines keep dropping in value as they age. There has to be room for people to get into the hobby with a DMD machine at a reasonable price. When I first started, "reasonable" was $1000-$1500 for a B list DMD machine. I never would have taken that first leap for $5000+

As I have stated in other threads, the biggest problem with buying late model SS used games at $4000-5000 range (for higher level titles) is quality.
These are 20+ year old titles that have been beaten to death in some cases, and simply are not in good enough to be sold for the values currently estimated. Even fully restored titles (without NOS or repo PFs installed) are simply too high to offset the inflationary values of economy. They are not made of gold, silver, or platinum plated parts.
Some SS games had already started to bottom flatline out in value, just like the EMs that came before them, but reversed direction quickly in the past 5 years.

These limitations will prevent new owner's from entering the hobby.
A few high end buyer's squabbling for machines is not a healthy endstate.

Responded to the bad for threat. Same applies here.

I think the long term effect is debatable. It may benefit them to sell fewer quantity at higher price because that would put less product out there, which could keep used prices high and in turn let them keep selling new games at high prices as well. You could also argue that wealthier buyers won't use the games as much and perhaps will have far fewer warranty claims. Ultimately you can argue pros and cons of both methods. They may very well try both tiers, have some games be SLE only but still ship Pro's for some other games. Clearly they are experimenting with pricing for a reason, but to me pinball can be treated as a luxury item and priced accordingly, at least for games that target the 40+ year old audience with money.

We're making people faster than typewriters too. So what?

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This topic reminds me of a high school debating topic (except they were boring).

I don't think the OP has proven that "increasing prices are good for pinball".

Increasing or high prices are just symptom of a market imbalance. An indication that demand has outstripped supply. But how are high prices in themselves good for pinball in general? They may be good for Stern who are in the fortunate position of being able to immediately capitalise on this (usually short term) spike, but are they good for the hobby as a whole?

What is good for pinball?
- More people involved in the hobby - more widespread appeal
- More games on location
- More variety of games being produced
- Better and more innovative games being produced
- Strong and numerous manufacturers

High prices are not good for bringing more people into the hobby because the higher the price, the fewer people can afford them.

High prices are not good to encourage games on location because the ROI will fall.

High prices will not encourage innovation and better design - competition encourages innovation and better design.

High prices in themselves may reduce the variety of games because of a smaller and more homogeneous market.

High prices will bring more manufacturers into the market at which point prices will fall. But it is not the price itself creating this - it is the increased interest in the hobby.

I seriously doubt the B66 pricing is the new normal for Stern. I see nothing in that game that justifies the price increases - no innovation, no real scarcity (i.e. of components/materials), no increase in BOM. This is purely Stern capitalising on a short term imbalance in the market. They have just doubled the capacity of their factory. They didn't do it to reduce the number of games they produce.

The OP is correct in stating that high prices are an indication of a strong pinball market. But high prices also indicate a lack of supply and competition. Long term, this is unquestionably bad for pinball.

I've been in the pinball hobby for quite a while and I've gotten to know a lot of other pinball hobbyiests, and all I have to say is that I am no longer buying NIB and I don't know anyone else that is buying NIB anymore. I suppose the newbs are the ones paying these prices.

I guess I am just spoiled since i was buying NIB games for low $4K's just a few years ago?

The only thing that pisses me off more than purchasing something that is overpriced is purchasing it then having them discount it for the next guy. Dialed In (more Pat Lawlor than title) was a dream for me for a long time.

$6500 WOZ was my limit. And, of course, with the strange phenomenon of used machines seemingly INCREASING in price, Dialed In will never happen for me.

Those increases will reverse as available money shrinks. Just watch the classifieds... lots of used games dropping in price or priced more aggressively

I think you need to explain why interest in pinball rises proportionally with the population.

The thread made refuting this topic actually makes sense.

Rising prices do not equate to greater demand. They show a bubble. Rising real estate prices brought about a huge economic decline we have yet to crawl out of.

The question is when this bubble busts. Greed is not good for pinball.

You imply awareness increases with population growth which is flawed reasoning.

It is not a reasonable case because pinball is increasingly priced in a matter that appeals to older population segments. Not to mention the themes reflecting this.

You have made no case and frankly only someone drunk on pinball or just drunk in general thinks 12.5k and 15k machines are good for pinball. As if some 50 million dollar mansion is good for everyone, right?

Uh, the manufacturers are limiting production and calling the product limited so it can sell at a higher price point. That's bad for pinball.

Increasing Pinball Prices are good for my bank account!

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Increased demand is good for pinball, increased prices is not good for pinball, especially after the prices for the last few years have been increasing exponentially to absurdity.

Pricing are soaring relative to other metrics - Product Volume, size of the current pool of buyers, type of product, incomes, etc. The market has not changed in the last 18months... this is supported by the facts that distribution has not changed, and communities like this still make up the bulk of the buying activity. The edges of the curve do not dictate the market.

Games were under valued vs what people would be willing to pay for them.. and now that reaction has continued to the point where those same buyers are turning up their nose at the prices.

These points are what supports the notion that prices are inflated vs normal inflation.

You keep taking points in isolation and stretching them. Like your arguments have ignored that both the major shipping pinball companies (JJP and Stern) have undergone management and strategic changes during the time period you've used to support your postulation. These are significant factors that muddy any correlation between prices charged and chasing demand. Prices increasing does not always mean demand exceeding supply.. it can simply be capitalizing on willingness to pay.

We know volume is up in success stories compared to years prior (Stern's comments about shipping more games in a month than ever.. and successes like AC/DC).. but past volume does not blindly support any price point. Its possible to over-reach... and that is what the customer sentiment is reflecting now.

Contrast the response seen in the last 6 weeks compared with the price increases we've seen previously. Tipping point is a phrase that sounds appropriate.

I don't normally post in these crazy threads but reading this one I'm blown away, I have read some silly sh*t on pinside during the years I've been here, but I think this might be the most moronic thing I've read here and I have read a lot of Kaneda's posts!

Increased prices does not show greater market demand when the production is being limited. Increased pricing with increased production would show a greater market, all the price hikes show is Stern & JJP have been watching the market and have seen there is a small niche group willing to shell out big bucks for a limited or in demand title - TRON or GB are perfect examples of both scenarios.

The overall pinball market is shrinking at a steady rate and anyone in this hobby can see that with their own eyes, it's glaringly obvious when you walk in your local arcade, I'm on vacation this week in Spain and it's the same, 3 locations with pins, free every time I've been while every other arcade/redemption game is being used constantly, we live in a world where society demands the latest, greatest & newest tech with instant reward/social gratification unfortunately pinball just doesn't offer it to today's general society.

Jack is trying new things I'll give him that, are they the innovations pinball needs? IMO it's not the right steps but at least there steps, but Stern are simply trying every trick in the marketing 101 handbook to take every last cent out of their customer base without adding a thing infact they regularly take away features.

Price hikes are all well and good for this little niche of buyers but when they can't shift there "old" games to get the latest and greatest ultra super duper limited edition there will be no pinball market left used or NIB, how is any of that good for pinball?

Ha! OK.

Manufacturers purposefully making less product (with added "features" so it can be marketed as a "collectable") to create a demand bubble at a higher price point that attracts an influx of speculators...how could that be bad for any product?

Uhhh... The constricted stuff we are talking about are LE editions... Which are announced at what size the run will be capped at. Don't be factious

Differentiate the product from what? It's stripped-down brother the Pro?

Pinball makers absolutely count on the customer to buy them, and at inflated prices that have left normal inflation beyond the horizon in the rear view mirror.

That is simply not how the current pinball market works. The profusion of artificially (by manipulating supply) created high demand (buyers for *all* "limited" models) for the "full-featured" models spills over onto all the rest of the games, even vintage models.

Soaring NIB prices means the whole chain down to even EMs get bumps in their value/asking prices. As prices rise on *any* product, they surpass affordability for certain buyers at certain levels. This is bad for any product, including pinball.

I'm out.

My point regarding arcade use/location interest in relation to the home pin sales was simple IMO and I could be wrong but if the casual/regular arcade user is not interested or gripped enough by a pin to drop a dollar/euro/pound for a game or two, then I don't see these same people being gripped enough to go out and buy a 9k pin, which is why I cannot see higher and higher prices being any good for pinball, it's simply going to shrink the current customer base and give potential new customers yet another reason to look at/buy something else.

Dialed In pricing will backfire on JJP. There are too many other equally good or better titles at much better price points.
Spooky may be the only manufacturer that can keep Stern 'honest'. Support Spooky....

The orders for the game so far don't appear to be backfiring.

LTG : )

with every large price hike they do, I bet they lose 10-20% of their would be buyers. Eventually it will catch up with them. they are too new of a company to suffer a flop of a game.

Spooky needs to support me first by making a game I want to play and own. We all know that feeling. You are playing a game at an arcade or a friends house and you become enthralled. You just want to play it so much more that you open your proverbial wallet and buy a copy of the game. Spooky hasn't achieved that for me yet. And until they do, no sale. They can be the darling of Pinside, but won't be in my gameroom until I'm obsessed with wanting to play their games.

What spooky needs is a zombie yeti for the playfield art. The cabs are awesome.

You have a point but everyone starts somewhere. They are getting better for sure. I like that they aren't scared of doing adult themes.

Rob Zombie has really cool call outs and has the sort of attitude I have been wanting to see in a pin. The gameplay isn't exactly what I'm looking for but they're getting better and better.

I know I'd rather have that pin than the overpriced Dialed In with its cheesy graphics, bob the builder toys, and stupid cell phone gimmick.

After paying 40 bucks to fund their company party, yeah,
that is how it feels

All I have seen is a big spike in lower end titles since all the price increases in new games, look at titles like Soprano's, WPT, LW3, LAH, DM, JD, JM, Shadow, T2, Most of these games (not Soprano's) were easy to find under 2K, try to find them now, even LW3 has been creeping up to 1800, a few years back 1K and you had one. Seen many 2K South Parks any more? 1500 Nightmare on Elm St's?

Personally I think the spike has driven the cost of what used to be bargain's way up!

8600 for a Batman, 9k for a dialed in.. makes 2K for a LAH look like a real bargain, which is why you do not see them much anymore. Dirty Harry was a 900 dog for years, now 24-2600 is the norm, the game did not get any better with age, neither did the others listed.

I think at this point there is little chance the bubble will burst until the games stop selling and the buyers stop buying. Every BM66 SLE has easily been spoken for, even with the increased allocation; and it's seems like Stern could still sell double the amount of these offered. The LEs will all sell out easily and there is likely plenty of demand for the premium.
JJP is just simply following the same pricing principle- it will be interesting to see if the market will continue to support these prices. In Canada, the cost to buy a Stern premium or a JJP DI is going to start at near $11k and run in excess of $20k for a BM66 SLE or a top shelf DI. Wow- this reminds me of the days of buying collector grade MMs/AFMs, etc before the remakes began...

How can someone be priced out of a $8K game like "Dialed In" that has new state of the art innovation plus a LED display, but turn around and buy an outdated 20 year old remake for the same price???