(Topic ID: 171125)

Increasing Prices: Good for Pinball

By brundaged

7 years ago


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  • 294 posts
  • 95 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by LTG
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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There are 294 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 6.
#101 7 years ago

People keep talking like the manufacturers can never lower prices once they've announced higher prices. If the market can't bear the increase, the prices will go down. The companies are doing nothing wrong by experimenting with price.

The whole thesis of this thread is that the manufacturers feel confident enough to experiment with pricing. That's good news for the industry in general.

#102 7 years ago
Quoted from Toasterdog:

Pissing off the majority of you customer base...

Everyone's assuming they represent the majority. It might not be true.

14
#103 7 years ago

JJP price for Dialed In LE @ $9k is tolarable to me. I am personally priced out, but can actually see some value. There's innovation and a higher build quality (perceived by me, never owned JJP) There's also Invisiglass.

Stern on the other hand seems exceptionally offensive to me. They have a quality control issue currently (I bought GB and GOT Pre NIB so I know 1st hand) and haven't really added anything of value IMO.

The new, next level of stupid SLE and Collector Editions at $15k and $12.5k that either have only a plaque and a few signatures or just the best art package without adding value is totally lame.

I was never a buyer of either, but feel like they are insulting my intelligence with this shit. A lot of people already had issues the pro / le tiers, but was overall accepted.

#104 7 years ago

You guys do realize that the OP is Jackazz and a troll right? He's just trying to pull your chain and get people mad.....ignore him.

#105 7 years ago

In general I get what you are saying. I really do. But..

Quoted from brundaged:People keep talking like the manufacturers can never lower prices once they've announced higher prices.

I remember about 12-15 years ago movie theatres started charging an obscene amount of money for a movie ticket. I vividly remember having to pay $15 per ticket. At the time that was completely ridiculous and after that night I completely tuned movie theatres out of my mind for about 2 years... I just found other shit to do. The movie theatres pissed off so many people that they had to bring the price down to lower then they had priced there tickets before their greed hike to win people back.

I think Stern and JJP have just done the same mistake. That's it that's all. I was eagerly awaiting Star Wars but as soon as they announced pricing I directly went to the used market threads. In other words they've just tuned me out.

#106 7 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

People keep talking like the manufacturers can never lower prices once they've announced higher prices. If the market can't bear the increase, the prices will go down. The companies are doing nothing wrong by experimenting with price.
The whole thesis of this thread is that the manufacturers feel confident enough to experiment with pricing. That's good news for the industry in general.

Ahhhh, now I understand your point. You are assuming this is like the old experiments where Henry Ford kept increasing the speed of the production line until the workers were ready to strike, and then lowered it back a step. The theory was that this allowed Ford to find the exact maximum speed people could work at before leaving, and be right on the edge all the time so they were not happy, but still stayed.

The problem is that it doesn't relate. A worker needs a job to pay for food and housing. A pinballer is buying luxury items. So even when the top of the market price is found and companies lower it back a bit, the customers don't actually "need" what is being sold. Sure, they can run up the price, but that lowering in the future won't bring customers flooding back. I can't wait to see the Aerosmith pricing.

#107 7 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

In general I get what you are saying. I really do. But..

I remember about 12-15 years ago movie theatres started charging an obscene amount of money for a movie ticket. I vividly remember having to pay $15 per ticket. At the time that was completely ridiculous and after that night I completely tuned movie theatres out of my mind for about 2 years... I just found other shit to do. The movie theatres pissed off so many people that they had to bring the price down to lower then they had priced there tickets before their greed hike to win people back.
I think Stern and JJP have just done the same mistake. That's it that's all. I was eagerly awaiting Star Wars but as soon as they announced pricing I directly went to the used market threads. In other words they've just tuned me out.

I don't remember the last time I went to the movies. I do remember enjoying a movie on my tv in the comfort of my own home the other day.

#108 7 years ago
Quoted from Toasterdog:

JJP price for Dialed In LE @ $9k is tolarable to me. I am personally priced out, but can actually see some value. There's innovation and a higher build quality (perceived by me, never owned JJP) There's also Invisiglass.

Agree on innovation and quality, disagree on price. It's not tolerable to me. I have nice games and have paid over that price for a very special few. A NIB game at that price won't be in my near future.

#109 7 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

I'd suggest pins were underpriced 8 years ago. If you bought a house 8 years ago and it was worth more now, I imagine you'd sell it for what it was worth today not what you thought it was worth 8 years ago.
I understand the frustration everyone feels about increasing prices, but I'm talking about where the market is at right now.

actually my house is worth $50,000 less than it was 8 years ago. So your logic is very very wrong. I wish I would have bought my house this year and not 12 years ago. I could have got it for almost half of what I paid.

#110 7 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

You guys do realize that the OP is Jackazz and a troll right? He's just trying to pull your chain and get people mad.....ignore him.

of course, but we are letting him paint himself in a corner with his insane "logic".

#111 7 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

actually my house is worth $50,000 less than it was 8 years ago. So your logic is very very wrong. I wish I would have bought my house this year and not 12 years ago. I could have got it for almost half of what I paid.

It's kind of ridiculous to equate real estate and pinball in the first place.

#112 7 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

actually my house is worth $50,000 less than it was 8 years ago. So your logic is very very wrong. I wish I would have bought my house this year and not 12 years ago. I could have got it for almost half of what I paid.

Actually, his statement is you would sell your house for what it's worth today, not what it was worth when you bought it. His logic is correct.

Quoted from Sticky:

It's kind of ridiculous to equate real estate and pinball in the first place.

True.

#113 7 years ago

Look.....time will only tell if a price increase is good or bad. Supply and demand will find its level at some point. All the manufactures have used the marketing strategy of "secrecy" with every new title. The tier system of Pro/Prem/LE has created the perception of buy it now or miss out if you want the LE.....though plenty come up for sale used. Buy the pro for less but you don't get all the features.....These are all marketing tactics and very effective. This has positioned Stern and others to find the price threshold at which games will still sell. The market is so niche they do not want to flood with selling thousands of any given title. Collectors are not like operators buying every title to put on route. Collectors buy the ones they are attached to.....Stern for example would prefer to make more titles and eventually make the "Dream Theme" that even the poorest sap will take out a second or third mortgage to get. Worked like a charm for BM66, GB, and others. More titles gives variety and keeps interest.

#114 7 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

This is my point. There's still a market despite this thinking, so either the market is bigger or the thinking is wrong. Manufacturers will adjust back down if it doesn't work.

Adjust back down to what? Knocking $500 off their already stupid pricing?

#115 7 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

It's kind of ridiculous to equate real estate and pinball in the first place.

Right. Everybody knows pinball is like cars.

#116 7 years ago

As long as these new machines come with $5 bill acceptors, I don't really see a problem.

#117 7 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

No one wants to pay more, obviously. Can we please move past the grousing about it?
-Stern's 15k Batman 66 SLE is obviously a pricing experiment: They intend to learn how much demand there is for a much-higher priced game. They're not doing it to make money. 30 SLE games times an extra $6,000 per game is only $180,000. For a manufacturer of their size that's not enough to make a difference. But gathering data on how many people are willing to enter a contest just to be able to buy it is very valuable.
-JJP's Limited Edition Dialed In! really is limited: The $9,000 price is only good until the end of the year, after which the price is $12,500. So pay a deposit now and the game is theoretically worth more after December 31. At 9k the price is comparable to their other offerings, yet offers more. The theme is irrelevant to this discussion. For JJP, the pricing experiment is to see how many will commit to a deposit before the year is over. After that, they find out how many still want it at 12.5k.
Remember that companies can always lower prices--that's easy. The hard part is finding the pricing ceiling, which is what both companies are doing right now. The fact that they feel able to explore this tells us the market is strong. That's great news!

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#118 7 years ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

You guys do realize that the OP is Jackazz and a troll right? He's just trying to pull your chain and get people mad.....ignore him.

You might be right about the first part, but I want people to think deeper about the market and would prefer they weren't mad. I don't think being mad is helpful.

#119 7 years ago
Quoted from Sticky:

It's kind of ridiculous to equate real estate and pinball in the first place.

Sure, but it's not ridiculous to talk about how market value works.

#120 7 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

Sure, they can run up the price, but that lowering in the future won't bring customers flooding back.

This is a thoughtful point. I'm not sure I can see it working that way though. The fact that people are so emotionally invested here suggests they can be pulled back.

#121 7 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

This is a thoughtful point. I'm not sure I can see it working that way though. The fact that people are so emotionally invested here suggests they can be pulled back.

Until they find something else. Just bought myself a nice mame cab and perhaps a c title game.

#122 7 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

This is a thoughtful point. I'm not sure I can see it working that way though. The fact that people are so emotionally invested here suggests they can be pulled back.

Manufacturers can absolutely pull back.
This is not a new concept.
Stern has done it before in the mid 2000s when sales slumped.
Unfortunately, the damage is normally already done at this point, and hard to repair the "trust".

Ask old WMS management what happened in the mid 1990s regarding operators trust and game prices.
Owners might recall the term, "production overstock closeout".
The games STILL did not sell, at reduced prices (and the games were actually GOOD such NGG, MB, JM, CV, etc) and operators were still unwilling to buy.
AGC, Capcom, DE, GTB, and Sega games went dirt cheap at times as well, sometimes at the point, they were left sitting on loading docks.
However, trust was not the only problem, the final latter point was also caused by WMS completing against their own older titles, and pinball interest was waning again.
It was not due to a "market flood" of new titles, although operators did have a lot of choices.
They just chose not to buy any more pinball machines.

Why is this important you might ask?
Private owners have replaced operators not only as a primary market, but the ones that manufacturers have to gain "trust" from in the first place.
Are they really making an outstanding effort to meet the market's expectations at the current time?
Build quality decreases yet price continue to increase of proportion of the economy or owner market?
People waiting over 2+ years for pre-order with constantly changing production dates?
Physical game date releases that are based on fantasy rather than actual production?

Hard to maintain trust in these situations in the long haul.
People are started to get a little wanky on these problems.

Stern has done an amazing job of alienating many long time hardcore collectors in a extremely short period of time with the BM66 shenanigan, mostly out of the the visibility of "here we go again" mentality with price testing.
Many are just sitting back and watching now, and would prefer to not get involved let alone emotionally invested.
It just does not matter.
We just focus on other pursuits until times change again, or buy older games while the spotlight is one the newer titles.
There are plenty of choices beyond BM66, DI, Alien, TBL, GB, Full Throttle, WoZ, TH or anything else released in the last 5 years.
Many EMs are still very affordable, and a fantastic buy for starting owners.
Things come into focus in time.

However, no one can stop the money train of newer collectors until it derails.

We need maximum manufacturer competition to balance pricing in the market.
My vote is for American Pinball if they can get Houdini into a new padlocked, watertight, pinball manufacturer shipping box that actually plays.
I would prefer to have those who "trusted" on MG to get their games first.
Priority in my opinion.

#123 7 years ago

The pricing on BM66 is ridiculous! Even if it was an pricing experiment, what a disaster of an idea after all of the code, playfield issues they have been having. The LE which was defined as Stern's Holy Grail to own is not even a Premium now next to the SLE. Gomez mentioned in a video that if you want a bat mobile, boat, heli..(these are 5 dollar toys at most) that they would be available to purchase at Stern's store. I would think paying an additional 2k more than any LE the've sold and that I've ever purchased would come fully loaded. The SLE looks pretty sweet but damn I'm not sure all the extras it comes with is worth 15k, 5k more??? Oh yea, I forgot, there are only 30 of them. Had they sold the SLE for 9k (still stupid money) they would probably sell hundreds...topping well over the 450k they will make on the 30 that are sold already. As I mentioned it's just bad business planning on their part. Pretty disappointing!

#124 7 years ago

I know an arcade owner who is interested in buying a couple of new pins. However, he balked at the price of $5600 stern pro's.

Pins at the location don't earn much. It's mainly a redemption arcade with over 75 machines, and the big earners are the machines that dispense tickets.

So, for operators, prices like these are completely bonkers. For home owners, even more so. What market is Stern & JJP shooting for if it's not operators and not average collectors?

#125 7 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Manufacturers can be pulled back

I meant the potential buyers here are so invested in the products that they can still be won back by lower prices later.

#126 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Pins at the location don't earn much. It's mainly a redemption arcade with over 75 machines, and the big earners are the machines that dispense tickets.
So, for operators, prices like these are completely bonkers.

I suspect redemption arcades are the wrong market for pinball, hence the poor performance.

#127 7 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Owners might recall the term, "production overstock closeout".
The games STILL did not sell, at reduced prices (and the games were actually GOOD such NGG, MB, JM, CV, etc) and operators were still unwilling to buy.

Market conditions were very different then. I'd suggest there was low demand and the market was oversaturated. Not sure that applies today.

#128 7 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

However, no one can stop the money train of newer collectors until it derails.
We need maximum manufacturer competition to balance pricing in the market

Maybe there are more new collectors than we realize. That would be great news. No need for it to derail.

We definitely need at least two major manufacturers, agreed. I expect some of the smaller ones won't make it long term, but time will tell. Lots of positive things are happening in that space.

#129 7 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

Market conditions were very different then. I'd suggest there was low demand and the market was oversaturated. Not sure that applies today.

the market is going to be oversaturated again. It's not like JJP and Stern are the only 2 places NIB buyers can go. There are many more options that cost much less and more bang for the buck. Stern/jjp don't feel a threat from them yet, but with the price hiking, i'm sure they will start to feel it now. Hopefully it's enough to make them assess the situation. competition is suppose to lower prices. Not a contest to see who can charge more.

#130 7 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

I suspect redemption arcades are the wrong market for pinball, hence the poor performance.

Most arcades that I'm aware of in the area are mainly focused on redemption. I haven't seen an actual video arcade in years.

People tend to feed dollar after dollar into games that spit out tickets. With pins, usually it's just one game, and they're done.

#131 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Most arcades that I'm aware of in the area are mainly focused on redemption. I haven't seen an actual video arcade in years.
People tend to feed dollar after dollar into games that spit out tickets. With pins, usually it's just one game, and they're done.

Arcades in general are child-oriented. You don't have to be a child to go to one, but as a market they're perceived as a place for kids. I don't believe the future of pinball lies in arcades as we've known them.

In barcades pinball seems to be used as a loss-leader to sell alcohol. That's fairly innovative, and a more targeted on-market placement for pinball.

#132 7 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

competition is suppose to lower prices. Not a contest to see who can charge more.

So far the market is following a normal trend: The industry leaders are finding the price ceiling. It will stabilize or adjust down as the market changes.

#133 7 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

So far the market is following a normal trend: The industry leaders are finding the price ceiling. It will stabilize or adjust down as the market changes.

I agree, and I think we are going to see change now.

#134 7 years ago

I still don't know why pins don't have the option to dispense tickets. I know, I know, the purity of the game, yadda yadda, but it seems like an obvious thing to do. Maybe there's a weird legal reason or something.

#135 7 years ago

they do dispense tickets now. Just not a lot of tickets to keep up with the ticket dumpers.

#136 7 years ago
Quoted from trunchbull:

I still don't know why pins don't have the option to dispense tickets.

The option exists, it's just not popular. My impression is it doesn't add enough draw to make a difference in a redemption arcade. Those that have tried it are welcome to correct me.

#137 7 years ago
Quoted from trunchbull:

I still don't know why pins don't have the option to dispense tickets. I know, I know, the purity of the game, yadda yadda, but it seems like an obvious thing to do. Maybe there's a weird legal reason or something.

You make a good point... but I gotta say: kids don't want to be bother figuring something out like pinball. They just want to pull a lever...have a few seconds of anticipation... and then move onto the next machine.

Only way tickets and pins could work is if pins dispensed waaaay more tickets. Even with that....I think the kids might gravitate to the traditional redemption machines.

#138 7 years ago

Kids today probably do not know what a pinball machine is.. they are few and far between, and I am pretty sure kids are not going to start looking up places like barcades to play a pinball machine. Sorry to say, but without the ticket factor (which may or may not make a difference), most of these kids have cell phone games, Xbox, PlayStation, etc. If they do happen to play pinball arcade on one of these systems, I am sure they can relate more to that than an actual pinball machine.. Pretty sure Chuck E Cheese is not going to buy a 9000 machine for their locations, Dave and Busters do not have pinball, and I am sure 9K is not going to get them there, and besides how many kids know what Batman 66 is even about? I cannot see what their market exactly is for these games, going to say the upper 1% who can drop 10K without blinking an eye, question is, does the upper 1% even want a pinball machine?

#139 7 years ago

Most Redemption games are rigged to pay certain percentages. A bit harder to do that with a pinball game that isn't completely controlled by software.

Ever see a redemption game that lasted 3+mins on a single credit?

#140 7 years ago
Quoted from balboarules:

Pretty sure Chuck E Cheese is not going to buy a 9000 machine for their locations, Dave and Busters do not have pinball, and I am sure 9K is not going to get them there, and besides how many kids know what Batman 66 is even about?

Exactly right. It would be reasonable for D&B to try pinball, but Chuck e Cheese would be mistaken to do so. Wrong market.

#141 7 years ago

Stern spends a lot of time and attention on the themes they select. What they do tells you who they think their market is. It's not kids.

#142 7 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Most Redemption games are rigged to pay certain percentages. A bit harder to do that with a pinball game that isn't completely controlled by software.
Ever see a redemption game that lasted 3+mins on a single credit?

Redemption doesn't always mean claw games.

There are skill-based games like skee ball or carnival-type games that dispense tickets too.

But true, most games last between 5 and 90 seconds, depending on what it is.

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#143 7 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I know an arcade owner who is interested in buying a couple of new pins. However, he balked at the price of $5600 stern pro's.
Pins at the location don't earn much. It's mainly a redemption arcade with over 75 machines, and the big earners are the machines that dispense tickets.
So, for operators, prices like these are completely bonkers. For home owners, even more so. What market is Stern & JJP shooting for if it's not operators and not average collectors?

The market is ripe for a company that can make nice NIB pins for under 5k...Someone needs to attempt it, as that's where the sweet spot is...Maybe from the ashes of these mistakes, another manufacturer will arise.

#144 7 years ago

The prices are too damn high. Just watch: whatever title, and I mean whatever title, Spooky announces next for $6000 will sell out in a day or two. Why? Because people are going to support the company that produces NIB games for realistic prices. Hell, I'm not embarrassed to say, I've bought spookys first two games and I'm in on the third, regardless of theme assuming they too don't get price greedy. Just to support them and the pricing.

I'd love to think that all of the people complaining about price on here actually do vote with their wallets. If we want this to change, nobody should be buying BM66 whatsoever. And DI should be purchased when JJP lowers it $1k. Personally, I'm willing to spend a bit more for JJP games b/c of the innovation, but not 9k. But, as for Stern? No invisiglass. No shaker. No subways. Rehashed playfield. No guarantee that the game will be polished code-wise. QC problems on the most important part of the game, the playfield. No backglass. Led strip in the backbox. All for $12k? For a group of people that make a decent living and have to have some base intelligence - how the f$)k are we sending Stern money for BM66?

#145 7 years ago
Quoted from dsmoke1986:

The market is ripe for a company that can make nice NIB pins for under 5k...Someone needs to attempt it, as that's where the sweet spot is...Maybe from the ashes of these mistakes, another manufacturer will arise.

I'd bet good money Stern could easily drop PRO prices back down to the $4300 range

#146 7 years ago
Quoted from Euchrid:

The prices are too damn high. Just watch: whatever title, and I mean whatever title, Spooky announces next for $6000 will sell out in a day or two. Why? Because people are going to support the company that produces NIB games for realistic prices. Hell, I'm not embarrassed to say, I've bought spookys first two games and I'm in on the third, regardless of theme assuming they too don't get price greedy. Just to support them and the pricing.
I'd love to think that all of the people complaining about price on here actually do vote with their wallets. If we want this to change, nobody should be buying BM66 whatsoever. And DI should be purchased when JJP lowers it $1k. Personally, I'm willing to spend a bit more for JJP games b/c of the innovation, but not 9k. But, as for Stern? No invisiglass. No shaker. No subways. Rehashed playfield. No guarantee that the game will be polished code-wise. QC problems on the most important part of the game, the playfield. No backglass. Led strip in the backbox. All for $12k? For a group of people that make a decent living and have to have some base intelligence - how the f$)k are we sending Stern money for BM66?

Agree with your sentiments... and I'd love to know how JJP is getting to their number. My suspicion is they are taking the market for a ride

#147 7 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

I'd bet good money Stern could easily drop PRO prices back down to the $4300 range

The cost of production doesn't dictate the market value.

Pinside collectors all assume they represent the majority of the market. They probably don't.

#148 7 years ago
Quoted from dsmoke1986:

The market is ripe for a company that can make nice NIB pins for under 5k...Someone needs to attempt it

There are plenty of small manufacturers already making their best attempts. They'd be wise to charge what they can at the production numbers they can manage.

The startup costs for manufacturing are too high for this to be an attractive market for very many players. This probably can't happen until a Chinese-American or European with dual-citizenship and great business acumen decides to establish a pinball company in China.

#149 7 years ago
Quoted from dsmoke1986:

The market is ripe for a company that can make nice NIB pins for under 5k...Someone needs to attempt it, as that's where the sweet spot is...Maybe from the ashes of these mistakes, another manufacturer will arise.

100% how I feel.

So, shall we start a company?

#150 7 years ago

I had cash in hand and was looking for a new game....then they jacked the prices even more. I was so frustrated with the whole pinball market that I took my "hobby" money and bought a pair of Jet Ski's. There's cash Stern and JJP potentially lost and it doesn't look like they will get any of my future cash either (at least not directly).

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