And so it begins......wolfy from 13hrs ago > 1.0
(Topic ID: 166000)
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Iron Man (Pro Vault Edition)
Stern, 2014
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for anyone that has not realized by now, the ONLY thing worth anything in the ratings is reading what Caucasion2Step writes in the comments for each game!
Quoted from Whysnow:for anyone that has not realized by now, the ONLY thing worth anything in the ratings is reading what Caucasion2Step writes in the comments for each game!
Except that about 35% of the time he's dead wrong. I know modern Stern's are not your thing Whysnow but 5.1 on IM.....really?
Games I really don't care for at all rate higher than 5.1. (Well except maybe for Shaq)
Hagerstown, MD
Quoted from Astropin:And so it begins......wolfy from 13hrs ago > 1.0
https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/iron-man-ve/ratings?filter_sort=date-desc&filter_show=all&filter_bogus=5#ratingcomments
Flag it bc no game is a 1 or even a 5 for that matter. All pinball is fun but people take the pinside ranking way to serious.
Quoted from Whysnow:for anyone that has not realized by now, the ONLY thing worth anything in the ratings is reading what Caucasion2Step writes in the comments for each game!
If I'm ever thinking about buying a pin that I don't know much about, I always look for his rating/review of a pin. He breaks down the good and bad of each pin in a very easy to read way. His is the only rating on Pinside that I give a shit about.
Quoted from Whysnow:for anyone that has not realized by now, the ONLY thing worth anything in the ratings is reading what Caucasion2Step writes in the comments for each game!
This is the first place I go when I'm researching a new game. Lots of time that I do not agree with how he has things ranked but his write ups are typically spot on and are unbiased in approach.
Quoted from frolic:This is dumb, because now that IMVE is #1, by next week it will drop to 50 because there will be a bunch of 1s and 2s ratings by dumpers to try and push it down. The whole charts need to be retooled badly.
More of an issue with silly people then how the rankings work. If the world wasn't full of adult children it wouldn't be an issue.
All models made by Stern from May 2016 - current (Aug 2016) should get a special ghosting edition listed. For simplocity a G can precede the normal abbreviation. So GGBLE should be added plus a few others. Wouldn't want Pinsiders to forget about those next month.
My vote is to allow prem/le in ratings but to only list highest version. Both could exist with a number but you wouldn't clog spots with multiple versions. I wish some other titles would be removed by proxy - like TAFG. And as for IMVE, hell no!
Quoted from Whysnow:for anyone that has not realized by now, the ONLY thing worth anything in the ratings is reading what Caucasion2Step writes in the comments for each game!
I guess i'm not the only one that reads all of his ratings.
Quoted from Whysnow:for anyone that has not realized by now, the ONLY thing worth anything in the ratings is reading what Caucasion2Step writes in the comments for each game!
If ratings isn't such a big deal., then why did you rate 63 games....kinda weird...
Quoted from Astropin:Except that about 35% of the time he's dead wrong. I know modern Stern's are not your thing Whysnow but 5.1 on IM.....really?
Games I really don't care for at all rate higher than 5.1. (Well except maybe for Shaq)
I use the whole 1-10 spectrum for ratings. I know many think that we should only use 5 -10, but what is the point of all the other numbers then?
5.1. is actually a decent rating from me, esp for a crappy Stern 
IM is one of my more liked Sterns.
Quoted from daddyxxx:If ratings isn't such a big deal., then why did you rate 63 games....kinda weird...
I rated them for myself. I like to be able to go in and look at my own personal ratings. I also will adjust ratings over time as preferences change at times.
Quoted from bigd1979:Flag it bc no game is a 1 or even a 5 for that matter. All pinball is fun but people take the pinside ranking way to serious.
That doesn't work mathematically. If we are rating on a scale of 1 to 10, then each number is 10% of the score. If we rate from 5 to 10, each number is worth 20%. The more of the rating you take away, the less it means. As it is we are talking about thousandths of a point differences.
Let's just establish that the worst game in the world (Judge Dredd) is a 1, and everything else is a 5 or higher.
Quoted from Whysnow:I rated them for myself.
Exactly. That is why the only ratings that matter to ME, in actual order of most liked to least liked game, are here... https://pinside.com/pinball/my-pinside/ratings
Comments, however, are a whole different thing. There are 15ish people on here that I first check comments about a game if I haven't played it yet and see one for sale. The numbers mean little.
Quoted from DaveH:That doesn't work mathematically. If we are rating on a scale of 1 to 10, then each number is 10% of the score. If we rate from 5 to 10, each number is worth 20%. The more of the rating you take away, the less it means. As it is we are talking about thousandths of a point differences.
Let's just establish that the worst game in the world (Judge Dredd) is a 1, and everything else is a 5 or higher.
I'm not a fan of Dredd but it's better than Hercules, my lowest rated game.
totally agree - one game one listing on the ratings table... skews everything down under it by the number of duplicates above it. Been saying this for a while.
That's what I'm sayin'--one pin, one vote, one rating, sort out all the variants in the narrative. If a Turbo Screamer Premium-Plus Platinum Edition plays different than the lowly Turbo Screamer Skid Row Edition, note it in your comments!
Quoted from Deez:Only noobs pay attention to rankings. There are a ton if gems that don't even scratch the top 100 list.
Dang strait. I love my X-files. Awesome and unforgiving game. Noobs hate it because it takes skill and you drain fast when you`re stupid. It`s rated in the crap can. So is my Stern Elvis but I wouldn`t give `em up for just any new title because yes they are gems.
Quoted from MustangPaul:Never even looked at or posted a rating. Waste of time.
Aw, c'mon MP--it's always interesting to see the game play opinions of those whom you respect (such as yourself)!
Quoted from Billy16:Aw, c'mon MP--it's always interesting to see the game play opinions of those whom you respect (such as yourself)!
Yes, while I do not put too much value in the cumulative list, I put tremindous value in the lists of about ten guys here on Pinside who have tastes similar to me.
The top 100 is very valuable when taken member by member.
Kitchener, ON
Quoted from dmbjunky:I've heard this suggestion before. Every version of a game should be lumped into a subgroup and the highest version of a game should be the one listed on the ranking list. So for example, if GOT pro had a score of 7 and premium had a score of 8.5 and LE had a score of 8.2 then the premium would be the one shown on the ranking list. That might be hard to overhaul the system like that though.
^^^^^ This for sure ^^^^^
Also I think we should remove a 1-10 rating for each game aspect (gameplay, theme, sound, ect). The whole list should be tossed out and created new. Hold a month long event to get people to recreate the list quickly. I think an improved way to rate games would be a "better than, worst than" question for each game aspect. Then use an algorithm to determine the top list.
Eg. When rating IM your asked a series of question with yes or no answers. "does the ironman game incorporate music better than midevil madness?" Is it better than WoZ? Is it better then F-14? After 5 or 10 picks of yes or no, the game will build its own numerical value based on your opinion of it compared to other games you've rated. Rather then having someone just enter an 8.3 or 10.0 on a whim.
It would be more difficult for a couple people to rig the system because when you rate games, your also building your own top 100 list. One person could not rate every game in their collection a perfect 10, nor could they make every title of a manufacturer they dislike a total 0
Quoted from Luckydogg420:Also I think we should remove a 1-10 rating for each game aspect (gameplay, theme, sound, ect). The whole list should be tossed out and created new. Hold a month long event to get people to recreate the list quickly. I think an improved way to rate games would be a "better than, worst than" question for each game aspect. Then use an algorithm to determine the top list.
I really like that aspect of the system. To me art, gameplay, and sound are tops. Sound quality and lighting are the very bottom in terms of importance for me. It also makes the system better than simply one number for each game. It's an accumulation of ratings for the various aspects of the game. I like how my rating of Getaway is higher than games like Cue Ball Wizard and Dirty Harry even though I like those better.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:It would be more difficult for a couple people to rig the system because when you rate games, your also building your own top 100 list. One person could not rate every game in their collection a perfect 10, nor could they make every title of a manufacturer they dislike a total 0
It's still difficult for a couple of people to rig the system now. The Dirty Harry club recently took initiative to get the game rated higher but it's still just barely above 100. A new game will probably always be high to start but it will eventually even out as more people get to play it.
Wow some people like to look at other's ratings . The reason I rated IMVE a one is to show how stupid having this as a separate game. How long did it take to get 16 ratings ? Its been out a year or so hasn't it ? People probably stumbled on it by accident. I actually had a pm that tried to call me garbage but they spelled it garbarage. I changed my rating to 6.9 which is about where I think it should be. I owned the IM original for 3 months and it was fun but got old hitting the monger so it had to go. I am sure there are some 3-5 ratings out there on top 20 games I have but I don't care enough to hunt them down. A lot of the ratings on the new games are partially based on people trying to protect their investment.
I'll admit I've been forgetting to rank machines I've played lately. I really like my IMVE ( play the crap out of it), so I jumped in and rated it....only came up w an 8.something. It's more just fun for me, I don't buy machines based on it. Threw 10's at WOZ and TRONLE because they are the best examples of what the represent ( to me), but I would never give a machine a 1, even if I didn't like it.....pretty much enjoy playing pinball, period, so never played one that would warrant that bad of a score...
Quoted from TigerLaw:Yes, while I do not put too much value in the cumulative list, I put tremindous value in the lists of about ten guys here on Pinside who have tastes similar to me.
This is exactly right. Here's how I found my list of members:
1. Look up a game I love.
2. Find someone who mentions the reasons I love it.
3. Read a few more of their reviews of games I love and see if it's a consistent thing.
4. (Optional) Read a few of their reviews of games I don't love and see if it's a consistent thing.
You also get exposed to a TON of members who don't post very often. Unsurprisingly, a lot of them have far more interesting things to say then the names we all know so well. 
Quoted from wolfy:I owned the IM original for 3 months and it was fun but got old hitting the monger so it had to go
You did know you can adjust how often Monger pops up right? Setting Monger to "hard" completely changes the game...... for the better!
Quoted from Astropin:You did know you can adjust how often Monger pops up right? Setting Monger to "hard" completely changes the game...... for the better!
exactly..
nice menu options in the game, for me disable top post, Monger start (letters) extra hard and Monger start (center shot only).
Quoted from wolfy:I know how to adjust monger but the whole game just got old . Same thing happened to Tron and Spiderman for me. 3 month shelf life for all 3 . They are all fun but they are just not quite keepers in my book.
Fair enough.
Quoted from wolfy:I know how to adjust monger but the whole game just got old . Same thing happened to Tron and Spiderman for me. 3 month shelf life for all 3 . They are all fun but they are just not quite keepers in my book.
Think if this same reasoning is applied to the ratings system rationale in general ("not keepers in my book"), the questions about poll validity would cease.
Subjective objectivity.....no such thing as a "right" or "wrong" method to rank anything using it (all 3 of his "non keepers" are "keepers" for me, btw, so case and point.)...just entertainment...
If you look and pick your pins by the ratings, I M terribly sorry.
The best thing I read on Pinside is when players say, get out, and play the damn machine, that's where your decision will be made. I stopped looking at ratings and listening to critics years ago, there review is there review, it is definitely not mine.
I just don't think the ratings are nearly as bad as everyone is saying. The difference between #1 and #50 is about one point. Drop another point and your down beyond #250. Those are on a ten point scale. What that tells me is that there are a whole lot of machines that are really good. I try not to get hung up on the actual scores. I rank based on the prompt words: "excellent", "good", "decent", "not so good", "poor", and "terrible". I don't thing I've given out many rankings below "decent". My total scores don't necessarily reflect the order I'd rank the machines because I'd probably have 85 of 100 weighting ratings in fun (30), gameplay (15), lastability (10), layout (15), and rules (15). That would leave 5 points each for theme, audio, and artwork.
Sydney, Oz
Here's the answer you're all searching for. Tolerance. Any measurement system has to report its result with a tolerance. A subjective system like the rankings would have to be at LEAST half a point either way. So 8.4 is really 8.4 +- 0.5. Therefore the number one game is just as likely to be a "real" 8.4 as a "reported" 8.9, and the number 50 game is just as likely to be a real 8.4 as its reported 7.9, and therefore really the same score. Add a realistic tolerance and suddenly the top 50 are the same, which is sort of what most reasonable people are feeling. Or think of it this way.. any pair of adjacent scores are only about a 2% chance of NOT being the same score.
We've kind of veered off the topic. I'd like to ask Robin or whoever why they added Iron Man VE as a separate machine from original run Iron Man. The art's the same. The code's the same. There are a few improvements in mechanics maybe but it is essentially the same game. It's like what somebody said about prototype games and production games. Pinside doesn't have them listed separate nor games like Tron that had separate runs spanning years.
Quoted from dmbjunky:We've kind of veered off the topic. I'd like to ask Robin or whoever why they added Iron Man VE as a separate machine from original run Iron Man. The art's the same. The code's the same. There are a few improvements in mechanics maybe but it is essentially the same game. It's like what somebody said about prototype games and production games. Pinside doesn't have them listed separate nor games like Tron that had separate runs spanning years.
The reason these different versions of games are added to the Pinside database is that they have different market values, different production dates, and sometimes different manufacturers. For instance, Medieval Madness now has 3 entries: the Williams version, the CGC Standard version, and the CGC L.E. version. Also the Whoa Nellie machine had a run made by WhizBang that is different than the version that Stern later made. It is nice to be able to look up information like market values, manufacture dates, etc. and to denote which version is in your collection or on a route location. The problem is that since each version can be rated separately, the end result sometimes defies common sense when looking at the rating lists. Same thing with the high scores feature where you have two versions with identical playfields and identical scoring values but are collected on separate lists. The solution isn't to eliminate all the versions from the database, but to better aggregate the ratings into a more accurate reflection of public opinion. Not an easy task by any means.
Quoted from kst8cat:The reason these different versions of games are added to the Pinside database is that they have different market values, different production dates, and sometimes different manufacturers. For instance, Medieval Madness now has 3 entries: the Williams version, the CGC Standard version, and the CGC L.E. version. Also the Whoa Nellie machine had a run made by WhizBang that is different than the version that Stern later made. It is nice to be able to look up information like market values, manufacture dates, etc. and to denote which version is in your collection or on a route location. The problem is that since each version can be rated separately, the end result sometimes defies common sense when looking at the rating lists. Same thing with the high scores feature where you have two versions with identical playfields and identical scoring values but are collected on separate lists. The solution isn't to eliminate all the versions from the database, but to better aggregate the ratings into a more accurate reflection of public opinion. Not an easy task by any means.
Those examples seem vastly different from IMVE to original IM. MM and MMR were made by different companies and run on different hardware, same with WNBJM. Iron Man and the Vault Edition are virtually the same machine. They run on the same boards. They have the same art and code unlike SMVE. I think they have a different backbox and cab decals but the same could be said of later run Star Treks and there is no separate listing for those.
How about a composite ranking category? Make that a new top 100 category. Keep it the way it is so that you can rank the version differences if you still want to. All IMs could then be summed and a composite ranking of all versions could be shown. Same with the MM and MMR versions, ACDC versions, GB, etc. Why not? The database structure would not have to change, just sum it based on primary pin name. Then it could make everyone happy. Look at whatever ranking view/category that you want. It "could" be done with that database structure.
Quoted from KingBW:How about a composite ranking category?
How about we just get rid of the rankings. Just allow editorials explaining what you like or hate about the game, but no numbers.
I suggest this because there isn't a single way to rank games that can't be manipulated. Even my suggestion is totally open to manipulation. Just stop it all as Billy16 suggested.
Quoted from DaveH:How about we just get rid of the rankings. Just allow editorials explaining what you like or hate about the game, but no numbers.
I suggest this because there isn't a single way to rank games that can't be manipulated. Even my suggestion is totally open to manipulation. Just stop it all as Billy16 suggested.
I actually like the rankings but I love statistics in general so that might be my problem. Charts and Graphs get my blood boiling.
Quoted from DaveH:How about we just get rid of the rankings. Just allow editorials explaining what you like or hate about the game, but no numbers.
I suggest this because there isn't a single way to rank games that can't be manipulated. Even my suggestion is totally open to manipulation. Just stop it all as Billy16 suggested.
Ratings are great if there is a fairness to arriving at the end result. Not sure that is possible here, but I do like reading what others think of pins I have or have not played. My initial complaint--too many multiple versions clogging up/skewing the ratings. I'd like to see all the multiple game versions averaged into one rating and let the reader sort out the differences through the comments.
However...DaveH, your idea has a lot of merit.
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