(Topic ID: 307852)

Improving Sound Quality - The DIY Route

By davegauth

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 8 days ago by Ollulanus
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    Topic index (key posts)

    11 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

    Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

    Post #5 Simple front speaker swap instructions Posted by davegauth (2 years ago)

    Post #41 Cabinet speaker replacement instructions/info Posted by davegauth (2 years ago)

    Post #162 Kicker vs JBL speaker comparison Posted by davegauth (2 years ago)

    Post #165 MBQuart vs Alpine speaker comparison Posted by davegauth (2 years ago)

    Post #186 Kenwood vs Pyle speaker comparison Posted by davegauth (2 years ago)

    Post #244 Stern amplifier and sound signal output INFO Posted by davegauth (2 years ago)

    Post #269 5.25" speaker overall ranking to date Posted by davegauth (2 years ago)

    Post #352 Speaker baffles info and summary Posted by davegauth (2 years ago)

    Post #392 Adding an Amplifier (General) INFO Posted by davegauth (2 years ago)

    Post #424 Thingverse file link for printing 5.25" speaker mount Posted by Sleal16 (2 years ago)


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    #23 2 years ago
    Quoted from Gogojohnnyquack:

    I chatted with Jerry Thompson (sound designer on Godzilla) about this. I asked him what quality/resolution he mixed at and how it gets stored in the game, expecting his answer to be a low bit rate MP3. He surprised me by saying CD quality 16 bit/44kHz, and that the main issue with the sound in the pin other than the inexpensive stock speakers is the weak amp in the Spike 2 system.
    I already have replaced the speakers and my next plan is to install an amplifier using a Pinnovator's sub-out kit to provide the input. After looking at the main pinball-specific aftermarket amp I have found what appears to be a close cousin on Amazon; the Fosi Audio BT30D for $89.99. It has 2 channels at 50 watts for the backbox speakers and 1 channel at 100 watts for the cabinet woofer, with separate sub low pass and volume trim controls.
    Any thoughts about this amp and my plan?
    amazon.com link »
    [quoted image]

    A while ago I spent a good amount of time looking around for reviews on lower end amps and most rate poorly. I found this Blaupunkt performed surprisingly well and cost the same as the one you mention. I have had on my list for a while, so haven't tried it for myself.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Q28CNSN/

    It's big and doofy looking, but should be way more clean sound than I can stand in a game. The only slight downside is that it doesn't have a line out for an external sub. My plan is to take the line out from the Spike2 board to the amp and y-split one channel to go directly to an external sub.

    Speaking of external sub, I added one of these 4-way active mixers to connect four games to my extra obnoxious 12" powered sub. It has individual mixer controls to balance the sound between games. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08393DLGV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title

    1 month later
    #307 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    Finished the mount for the Fosi amplifier. I used purple, because I think it will end up on Deadpool or Stranger Things eventually.
    I may try out a Nobsound amp as well. Then I'll report back on all 3 amps with pro's and cons.[quoted image][quoted image]

    I think I mentioned this somewhere before, but I ended up picking up a BLAUPUNKT AMP1604.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q28CNSN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s01

    Going through all the amp tests that I could find on cheap amps, this one stood out as fairly decent (the reviews of the others were not so kind). At $66 it's cheaper than the FOSI and should have much cleaner output. It's certainly overkill and much bigger physically. It has several nice built in features; speaker and line level input, adjustable low, and high pass filters with individual gain adjustments. The only thing I wished it had was a dedicated low level sub output passthrough, but it's easy enough to put a splitter in. I don't have it fully wired in yet, so can give any impressions. If you are considering putting a few more bucks in an amp comparison, you may want to give this one a good look.

    #309 2 years ago
    Quoted from northerndude:

    Could I bother you to please mock up a rudimentary schematic on your wiring when you get to it?

    Surely! I am testing first in my IMDN, so will use my own CN5 adapter. But if I like how it turns out, will likely add to Spike1 and SAM games as well.

    #318 2 years ago
    Quoted from TommyMc:

    Anyone interested there is a Klipsch 12” sub woofer on Amazon for 50% off right now

    Thanks for the note, but the seller details does not fill with confidence.

    #338 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    The 110v inside the cabinet is a standalone, always on, power source. The amp would always remain on in that case. There are some interesting ways around this a couple pages ago - it can be done.

    Easiest is to wire the amp's DC power supply directly to the cabinet power supply AC input. This is after the cabinet switch and will only provide power when the game is switched on.

    #366 2 years ago

    I finished wiring up the BP car amp in my IMDN. It's not finished for mounting and cable routing, but I am happy with the results so far. Qualitatively, it has a very clean sound and pushes the speakers as loud as I can stand without any hint of clipping. Here's the basic of my setup;

    1) BLAUPUNKT 4-Channel AMP1604 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q28CNSN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s01 $66
    2) DC 12V 30A PS https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XJVYDDW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s01 $25
    3) Cerwin Vega 4x6 backbox speakers. $40 I bought these cheap speakers to see what it would be like to make a 4x6 adapter instead of going to 5 1/4" Not the right choice for sound quality. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/3d-printing-sharing-thread-lets-better-the-hobby/page/24#post-6589169
    4) Pyle 8" cabinet sub - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007JV7F4W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00 $20

    I made my own CN5 adapter to route pre-amp audio to the line level input of the amp. If you missed it, TinyBlackDog has a great write up here; https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-rush-owners-club-1/page/37#post-6808277. I wired the power supply AC input to the game power supply AC input so that it will also switch on from the cab power switch. I wired the remote turn on for the amp directly to 12v so it turns on when power is applied. It's also feasible to wire the amp remote turn a spare 12v feed from the game and just plug the new power supply into the always on service outlet.

    Some interesting observations;
    1) I spent a lot of time futzing with the game audio settings. My main strategy was to zero everything out in the game and get as close to the sound I wanted by adjusting the amp settings first. I used amp channels 1/2 for the cab speakers. These can be set to high pass filter with adjustable frequency cutoff. For channels 3/4 driving the cabinet sub, there is a low pass filter also with an adjustable cutoff plus a separate bass 0-18db boost. Also each pair has their own gain settings for fade control. After that I started to shape the game EQ to fine tune the sound, but really wasn't terribly happy. It wasn't until that I *completely turned off the EQ and tone controls* that I got an obvious cleaner sound. I have come to really not like how the Spike system digitally manipulates the audio through these settings (including the suspect speaker impedance options).

    2) I went a little conservative with my PS selection. I put a meter on the 12v power input into the amp and with it cranked up louder than I would ever have it, it peaked at 4.2amps. So....the 30A ps is certainly overkill. Next game, I'll drop down to a cheaper 8A (mayyyyybe 5A) passive cooling PS.

    3) I used a 5pin connector housing for making the CN5 adapter as I didn't have any 7-pin laying around. It took a little sanding down on part of the connector to make it fit. You could get away with a 4-pin connector too.

    4) I plan to still plug this into my 12" powered external sub for the extra low thud. The 8" cab sub sounds great, but just cannot compete on the really low frequencies. Also, I have found that after a certain volume, there is no hope of controlling glass or other cabinet rattles. I had to pull out my coin box because it would buzz at certain frequencies.

    5) I put an early generation pinwoofer setup in my Metallica. It does sound good, but I figured I could put piece together a better setup for less. As it sits, this setup cost about $150 compared to $240 for the original pinwoofer (and $370 for the current version). I consider this a successful experiment.

    PXL_20220313_051509430 (resized).jpgPXL_20220313_051509430 (resized).jpg
    #371 2 years ago
    Quoted from TinyBlackDog:

    This is the key factor that got me from scratching my head to finally enjoying my upgraded audio: Completely disable the Spike EQ by setting it to "None". There is some voodoo at play in their DSP that nobody seems to understand, and this is the closest we can get to bypassing it entirely. Setting both speakers to the same impedance setting (I use 4 ohm) also seems to help.
    Thanks for your great writeup.

    Agreed. There is some software funny business going on with these settings. I prefer leaving the speaker settings to default 8 ohm. To me it seems that this is as close to the direct pass through and the 4ohm is some weird post pre-amp attenuation. The fact that changing to 4ohm for one of them affects the sound of the other is a hint that something is not quite right. When I moved both to 4ohm, and then cranked the volume back up, it sounded like the pre-amp was getting overdriven, and then attenuated so it sounded a bit muddy compared to the same volume with the 8ohm settting. This is all qualitative at this point, so I could be wrong.

    That said, with the factory EQ off the sound is certainly much cleaner but depending on the game and the tonal characteristics of the replacement speakers, there may still be a need to shape the sound with an external EQ.

    #378 2 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Excellent, thanks, davegauth ! I'm thinking I'll use a supply that RobF used in his earlier post and then tapping into the power just after the switch like you suggested. Appreciate the insight!

    Just FYI, for my next install, I will probably be going with this 10A PS instead;
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E6RMASC/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_ZDMEKM76TABVSDVJA9MB

    #381 2 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    For my own edification , why? Purely wanting to learn here.

    The original one that I bought was 30A and certainly overkill for the needs. Going to 10A is still more than plenty and it is cheaper, smaller and passively cooled (no fan).

    #383 2 years ago
    Quoted from RatShack:

    Spend the extra money for something like a Meanwell.
    I had one of these fail due to vibration. It's your typical cheaply made PS. Don't mount it next to a subwoofer, lol.

    Noted. One of these means this manufacturer specifically? Also, curious how did you determine it was vibration failure?

    1 week later
    #498 2 years ago
    Quoted from RatShack:

    Spend the extra money for something like a Meanwell.
    I had one of these fail due to vibration. It's your typical cheaply made PS. Don't mount it next to a subwoofer, lol.

    Thanks for the comments on this. I settled on this MW power supply to run my amps. It even turned out to be maybe a dollar cheaper than the rando PSU I was originally looking at. These are 15v -7A which I am going to dial down to 13-14v.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019GYON9E/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00

    To keep the AC lines contained to the head and to reduce vibrations, I decided I wanted to mount it in the backbox. I designed and printed up my own mount.
    Since the heads are metal construction, I had to figure out how to use pre-existing studs. This is what I came up with.

    PXL_20220331_013639720.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20220331_013639720.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20220331_013439199 (resized).jpgPXL_20220331_013439199 (resized).jpg

    #524 2 years ago

    This is how I wired in my additional PSU.

    1) Unplug the game
    2) Remove two nuts for the game PSU cover
    3) Wire in to the game PSU ground/Neutral/Line

    DSC09126_markup (resized).jpgDSC09126_markup (resized).jpg

    With the cover back on.

    DSC09128 (2) (resized).jpgDSC09128 (2) (resized).jpg

    #526 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mattyk:

    I don’t have my game yet but circled is where the power switch is I believe. Use a multimeter and find the side that has no power while game is off. [quoted image]

    Wiring directly to the switch is pre-fuse and pre-filter. I suggest wiring directly to the screw terminals on the game PSU where I have the arrow pointing.

    EDIT: I might be wrong about the fuse. That could be just for the accessory plug. I will have to double check that. Either way, still think it's safer and cleaner to wire to screw posts behind a metal cover.

    #528 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mattyk:

    Thanks for sharing that option. I never thought to do that. I figured that by wiring directly to the switch that it’s the same power as a wall outlet. Plus it’s easier for mods that have a male plug. I’ve always been hesitant to draw power from the boards. But it’s good to know about tapping at the power supply. As long as it’s not stealing power from somewhere else it a great solution

    It's essentially the same wall power as coming off after the switch that feeds the game game's power supply. The difference is, you are doing yourself and the future owner a favor by not splicing the AC wiring in an exposed area. Just my 2cents worth.

    2 weeks later
    #620 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    Here are some pics of what is inside the Dayton 2.1 BT2 Amplifier and a couple first impressions.

    Did the sound start to distort before the protection kicked in? Did you test this with all speakers running or just the sub?

    Is your conclusion that the other mini amps that you tested are inferior in sound quality at elevated volumes to this Dayton?

    5 months later
    #957 1 year ago
    Quoted from RatShack:

    FINALLY:
    I hope others find this informative. Ignore the manufacturer’s specifications. If you need a low power, low distortion stereo amplifier, this is a reasonable choice. It has a nice look to it, but forget about the subwoofer output. Unless you have the knowledge to overhaul it, the subwoofer is useless. Also be aware that the speaker connectors are somewhat fragile.

    Great run down. For TNA, the sub enclsore goes a long way to get the most sound out of that amp. It sounds good up to a point then it completely falls on its face and then full on clipping. The lowlights you list are exactly why I looked for an alternative . For about $25 more you can end up with the same car stereo solution that I settled on and have all the clean, distortion free power your ears can handle. On top of that you get much better noise rejection and crossover control. The 4ch amp I chose is flexible enough to allow either low-level (spike1/2) or speaker level (SAM, etc) inputs. I have this setup on 4 games so far and plan on at least 3 more. It would be interesting for you to try it out and give a back to back comparison.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/improving-sound-quality-the-diy-route/page/8#post-6827701
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/improving-sound-quality-the-diy-route/page/10#post-6858259
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/improving-sound-quality-the-diy-route/page/11#post-6863467

    #959 1 year ago
    Quoted from RatShack:

    That's interesting how you're using a 4 channel amp in 2 channel mode, correct? Does that put the subwoofer on only 1 channel or does it mix L+R?

    No, I have it in 4 channel mode with the sub bridged on channels 3&4. Channels 1 and 2 are Left and Right back box speakers. I also have the RCA input to the amp split out and that goes to a powered sub to fill out the very bottom end.

    1 month later
    #1011 1 year ago

    I have had success using NinjaFlex 1.75mm filament between the cabinet and glass channel to eliminate glass rattle on my games. It's the same idea as the ziptie fix, but after adding car stereo amps to my games I needed something a little bit thicker than the zipties. The glass does fit pretty tight now, and 1.75mm is maybe jut a tad larger than ideal, but it is compressible enough to work. Other TPU filaments I tried were too hard and not compressible enough.

    11 months later
    #1507 5 months ago
    Quoted from PinTweeter:

    I was tasked to locate an early post showing our 4in to 5.25in interposer to drive home the point that we originated what is now our mature design with countless units in the field. Below is an early post from about 12/26/2019. We have other old website photos as well, but this should work OK:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-amplified-subwoofer-kits-by-pinwoofer/page/7#post-5380004
    We have sold our interposer for years and have zero issues with the current and mature design.
    It should not be up to us to support a copy of our design, and that fails in the field only to provide a set of our rings (known to work and have proper specs for just about any speaker) free of charge to preserve our speaker sales and to support an inferior design. Our customer comes first and we can't tolerate design misses out in the free downloadable content space.
    The thingiverse model had a ring pocket that is too shallow and a typical coaxial (our) tweeter assembly makes contact with the front of the speaker panel preventing a flush mount. This may not be our problem to solve, but we will do it out of good will again for our customers.
    We messaged John_I to call the shop to explain what's going on, but as of yet no phone call.
    This was not the only model we protested by the way.

    @pintweeter, I would like to know specifically what the claim is that necessitated a formal complaint to Thingiverse.

    #1509 5 months ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    noooooooooo
    We had just finished cleaning off the cringe....

    I think it is important to understand exactly what is being claimed against the DIYers in this specific thread by a well known vendor taking action to impede these projects. If there is another thread that explains what precisely Pinwoofer is accusing these folks of doing, I would be happy to jump over to it.

    #1511 5 months ago
    Quoted from mrbillishere:

    Suggest you just go back two or three pages in This thread and you'll easily get caught up.

    Thanks, but even though I stumbled into the conversation a couple days late I was caught up. I asked a specific question because the answers are not there... buy hey, why not just cut to chase. With the information given, I can't be certain which of these three scenarios this falls into.

    1) The vendor has a patent on this design and the claim to Thingiverse was that these were infringements on intellectual property. There are different submission forms for copyright vs. IP claims. I highly doubt this is the case, but it is a possibility.

    2) The vendor had originally shared design files and gave no license to share or alter those files after which they were uploaded to Thingiverse . That scenario would be valid copyright infringement claim but I also doubt this is what happened.

    3) IF the claim to Thingiverse was indeed for copyright infringement simply on the basis that the uploaded adapters designs look similar and solve the same problem, then in my opinion this deserves scrutiny. US copyright laws provide ZERO protection for functional works (like a speaker adapter!). See the definition of "Useful Articles" https://copyright.gov/register/va-useful.html.
    Anyone and everyone is welcome to take this vendor's adapter solution, reverse engineer it and make exact functional replicas down to the angstrom with no legal barriers for sale or free distribution. Either this vendor is ignorant of how copyright protection works, or they knowingly made false infringement claims to Thingiverse in an attempt to impair the ability of a DIY'ers or other vendors to provide originally created design files to others for free use. Sadly my guess is we are dealing with the latter case here and it sucks for anybody participating and contributing in this thread. I know there have been comments and conclusions made along these same lines, but I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt and give Pintweeter a chance to explain what the specific accusations were and the basis for the takedown requests.

    I think it is important for anybody who dabbles in 3D printing for hobby or personal business to understand how these things work at least at a rudimentary level. No one wants to be found in violation unknowingly (because intent and actual financial harm are not required for punishment). On the flipside, one should not build a business around something that is easy for others to replicate with a false sense of legal protection.

    On the plus side, Thingiverse does take real and fake complaints seriously. This is their warning for false claims;
    "Please note that, pursuant to 17 U.S.C. § 512(f), any misrepresentation of material fact (falsities) in a written notification automatically subjects the complaining party to liability for any damages, costs and attorney’s fees incurred by us in connection with the written notification and allegation of copyright infringement."

    #1512 5 months ago

    To balance my last couple of posts with actual DIY audio contributions....

    I adapted my car amplifier solution I use on multiple Spike games to my first SAM game (MetPro) a while ago. In an attempt to improve on the crummy SAM sound, I added this eq;
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00S7G1TW2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title

    It was a nice, cheap addition ($45 at time of purchase) and allowed excellent fine tuning of the tone. Next up, I think I will make myself a mono to fake stereo circuit to give a little more spatial element and take the SAM audio as far as it can go. I also had to design a new external PSU mount with the difference of how power lines are routed for the older games . For reference here's a summary of my previous posts on my car amp DIY solution. I have been nothing but thrilled with the results.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/improving-sound-quality-the-diy-route/page/20#post-7159439

    PXL_20231105_011549141 (resized).jpgPXL_20231105_011549141 (resized).jpgPXL_20231105_011642656 (resized).jpgPXL_20231105_011642656 (resized).jpg

    #1524 5 months ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    Even though the pinovators and pinsound get the job done - I've moved away from these a while ago. These tend to introduce a lot of ground loop noise to varying degrees. I use a shielded cable when I make harnesses for people, and this has silenced ground loops.

    Small point of clarification; Ground loops are formed from multiple parallel grounding paths. Shielding does not address ground loops, but instead protects against EM induced signal noise. Adding shielding can actually contribute to ground loop issues if the shielding is terminated to ground on both ends.

    Not so say your harness doesn't solve a noise problem, just that the fact it uses shielding does not mean it solves any ground loop problems in the system.

    2 months later
    #1715 77 days ago
    Quoted from Ashram56:

    Looks like the speaker adapters STL files links are gone, would anyone be able to share them ?
    Also, I recall seeing a full 5" printed plate, equivalent to the metal plate used on various website (see below), but can't find the link to the STL, has this been posted ?
    Regards

    I still see them here?
    https://www.printables.com/model/313814-mounting-plate-for-525-speakers-in-stern-pinball-m/files

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