This thread is focused on improving the sound quality of Stern Spike 2 machines. SPECIFICALLY using DIY alternatives, and not using complete packages like Flipper Fidelity and Pinwoofer are offering. This is not a knock on any of them, as they make fine plug and play solutions - But this a DIY adventure thread.

The goal is to install and test many of the various options available to the DIYer and document the journey as I go. I'll test different speakers for sound quality and fitment. I'll start with simple bolt on improvements and move up the scale to full ham. We should be able to put together many options with pro's and con's and be able show some of the best bang for the buck levels of improvements.

Disclaimer - I do not have any products to sell nor am I affiliated with any product. Everything will be done out of pocket. Which also means I won't be able to test absolutely everything available. If for some reason that changes, or a product is donated etc. I will ensure it is fully disclosed.

I'm just a guy who wants better sounding pins.

Note - I started showing these mods in the GZ thread. Now moving it to a standalone thread as it will benefit more people seeking out this specific subject.

I agree with this. The source material for GZ is very erratic. Deadpool is much better and consistent.

But we can't fight city hall so to speak - and will still need to work with what we have for now to get overall improvements.

DIY Speaker mod Round 2..

FREE SUB UPGRADE, well kinda....

I mentioned I would try out some 5.25" speakers in the back box for the next post. But now that I was trying to push things I ran into a problem that was driving me nuts! So like a dog distracted by a squirrel.....

Even at what I would consider lower volumes I was getting that familiar crackle when a speaker is reaching its limits.. I thought surely this shouldn't be the case unless I already blew the speaker. After some looking - the problem was with the plastic speaker mesh Stern uses between the cabinet and the speaker. The cone and the mesh are way too close together, once the cone gets moving the two of them strike a nice crispy vibe together.

If you think this could be the case with one of your pins and want to test it - use the DJ mixer and turn up the volume to replicate the suspected crackling. Use a pick to pull the plastic mesh away from the speaker. If the sound goes away you have a free mod coming.. Just undo the 4 nuts holding the woofer in and remove the mesh. Now you can push the stock woofer even further.

Ok - this fix got me back on track. Pushing the woofer more led me to the next unforeseen issue. The stock woofer acts more like a mid bass, and its a mess. It seems to cover a range from about 125-4k ish. But it's a garbled spongy sounding disaster, it doesn't particularly stand out for anything other than providing filler noise between those frequencies. Which led to unforeseen issue #2 - It throws allot of this garbled noise up through the backbox. Try this for yourself, turn your backbox speakers off using the fader in the utilities menu. Turn up the volume- listen to all that trash sound that emanates from the back box. You'll probably question yourself if the back box speakers were actually off.

I found that the backbox speaker upgrades I was testing sounded good by themselves but sounded like crap once I tried bringing in the stock woofer to balance everything out. The reverberating trash coming up the backbox made everything sound so off and disconnected.

Conclusion - Upgrading backbox speakers themselves may not be worth it. There is no doubt that new backbox speakers will sound better than the stock ones. Even given less than ideal situations. But they are too small to provide a good full sound by themselves. As you bring the stock woofer into play to try filling in the gap, things just sound wrong. Finding that balance was really difficult and it only worked on lower volumes.

Oddly - the crappy backbox speakers and crappy woofer harmonize and suck really well together...

Anyway - food for thought. Next post I'll add a new sub to the mix and see what happens.

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I do think I'm going to swing back around and try out your combo. Will be a good comparison and maybe a first level given the price points.

Glad you can confirm the Deadpool track is a cleaner track. Maybe i'll take a whack at pinball browser and change out the music on GZ after all this is done.

hocuslocus and anyone else - By all means post up pics and links to whatever you did for a DIY upgrade. The more the merrier.

hocus - good stuff, thanks for sharing all the links too.

Pinballmonkey - yep, I've been using the EQ to dial things in. Use the fader to turn the volume to either speaker off - then use the EQ to tune in the set of speakers you are working with. When done use the fader to level out the sound between the backbox and cabinet. A little final tweaking when both are running and that's the best you will get it without adding more gear.

Be sure to set things and check it at different volume levels to find a good compromise. (Tuning at lower volumes may not sound the same at higher volumes)

metallik you are the OG

It's an interesting thought to try amplification first.

I'm not optimistic the stock paper full range speakers are going to last very long though. Still could be interesting to see the actual results.. I may try this test when I move to the amplification stage.

BUSINESS OWNERS SELLING SOUND SOLUTUONS.

PLEASE DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD.

No offense guys, it's not a knock on your companies , knowledge, products or solutions.

Thanks for your understanding.

Me too - but there is a huge leap being taken from the 1950s paper cone full range speakers and the little Stern amp that could - gave a little more.

I would be willing to bet many people could/would stop here and be really happy with the results.

Next up - some 5.25" speakers arrived to test out and compare.

I didn't purchase any adapter plates or rings as I want to climb the DIY ladder. We can see if a DIY route is even a good idea versus just purchasing a ready made mounting solution.

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If you can post a picture or two of how you did it. It will be a good reference for anyone coming accross this post.

Here is what I am set at as a reference. Tweak to your liking.

4ohm for backbox, 8ohm for cabinet. Fade about +5

The gap you are hearing is probably in the frequencies in-between the sub and backbox speakers. They should be overlapping smoothly and complimenting each other. But instead the gap is a bit bigger and you probably are hearing this as everything probably sounds good and clear - but just seems to be a bit hollow in the low mid area. Just a guess.

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Food for thought.

It's pretty intuitive that upgrading speaker size from the 4" stock speakers to the 5.25" speakers will deliver more sound. This is going to come from the larger cone surface area available to move more air.

So just how much of an increase is this going to be?

I broke out the calipers and mad math skills of Google.

Not counting for the coax/tweeter opening of either speaker as it appears constant accross these speakers.

The 4" Kicker comes in with a surface area of 7.07 square inches.

While the 5.25" Kicker comes in at 10.32 square inches.

That's an increase of 46%. That's huge and should translate into a nice increase in the lower midrange. This should also be relatively the same accross brands like Kenwood, Pyle etc.

But let's throw a curve ball into this. JBL uses what they call their Plus One design. They squeeze in a much larger cone by attaching the suspension of the cone to the outside of the basket. This means the diameter of the cone is 5/8" larger than the similar sized 5.25" Kicker.

If we are after more sound and more low midrange - how much more can we potentially get by using JBL Plus One style speakers.

Revisiting the math....
5.25" Kickers = 10.32 Sq Inches
5.25 JBLs = 14.19 Sq Inches
A 38% increase from the similar size Kickers.
and it's a 101% Increase from the 4" speakers.

I can't wait to compare these and see how this actually plays out.

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Pinballmonkey

#1 - Print an adapter yourself, there are 2 on thingiverse.
#2 - Cut the studs off the stock mounting plate and drill new holes - get some #6 screws and nuts and bolt in your flush mount 5.25" speakers.

Out of curiosity what is Stern using for the LE subwoofers?

Hmm I may need to add the LE setup as well as the Pyle/Skar setups to my testing later for comparison sake.

DIY Round 4...

Fitting 5.25" speakers in the backbox.

There are 2 off the shelf solutions for this.

1 - New steel mounting plates are offered from a few vendors for about $50 a set + shipping.
CONs - Best for use with flush/surface mount speakers. However, selection of speakers is limited that are truly surface mountable. If the tweeter protrudes or if the cone movement needs some space, then you will need spacers to create some room between the plate and mounting surface of the speaker.
PROs - Convenience, buy it, install it. This option also creates the most space behind the speaker for additional clearance. This helps with room for speaker light kits and/or larger speakers etc.

2 - 3D printed plastic adapters. These are available from a couple of vendors as standalone items and are often included with aftermarket speaker upgrade solutions. Generally, they can be found for $30-$50
CONs - Many of these adapters take up close to .5" of space just for the adapter itself. This could reduce the speaker choices available due to size constraints. Adding speaker lights could complicate the situation and take up even more space. Air infiltration (See next post I make)
PRO's - Convenience; price. Given these are spacers they naturally create room between the front of the speaker and speaker plate, allowing for speakers with protruding tweeters.

NOTE: JBL and Infinity style speakers with the Plus One woofer design cannot be used with either solution above. These speakers are difficult to flush mount due to their design.

Conclusion: I honestly think that buying either of these solutions maybe money worth spending. There is something to be said for the amount of effort it takes to do something yourself versus how much money you will be saving. Time is money, dollar waiting on a dime, stepping over dollars to pick up pennies etc. If you love to tinker, then by all means go the DIY route, just know that your time may not be worth the effort on this one.

I will be covering some DIY methods, and a new adapter I am working on in the next post.

WizzardRob

Using mounting plates is sufficient in many cases by themselves. Providing you are using flush mount speakers. The color ring and foam are if you are trying to change the appearance of your back box. These items allow your speakers to show through the front grille of the backbox. The color ring is just to add a little color/flare to your machine.

Pinball Life and Speaker Light Kits both sell a version of plates. I'm sure there are a couple more floating around.

Right now I can only test on Sterns and an AFMr. But a ton of this information is still a foundation that can be applied to other machines as well.

There have been a few real good posts with information and Amazon links to items that can be used on other machines as well.

DIY Round 4.1..

5.25" speaker adapters.

In the last post we spoke about some available options that could be readily purchased. This post concentrates only on DIY options and some tips.

1 - Modify the Stern stock speaker plates. All you have to do is remove the plates, cut off the 2 studs that held the 4" speaker on. Then drill new holes for the 5.25" mounting. Install some 6-32 machine screws, reinstall the plates and you are ready to mount up some flush mount speakers. You'll need a dremmel, drill and some drill bits.
Tips: You will need a 9/64 drill bit to drill the holes for the 6-32 screws. Once you drill the holes in the plate install the 4 screws and run a nylock nuts down to the plate to lock them in(you will not need washers). You do not need to worry about the bolt heads on the front of the plate as they will push into the speaker foam. Use black machine screws if you can find them, if not use a sharpie on the bolt heads so you will not see them through the foam.
If you really want to be precise, then make a small 1 to 1 drill template that you can print out and align using the current two studs before cutting them off.

2 - You can design and make your own adapters. This will take way more time than it maybe worth. But if you want to tinker and have the skills then it's not so bad. You can 3D print it, make it out of wood, machine it out of aluminum, use foam core like shown in a previous post. How you make it depends on the methods you have access to and feel comfortable using.
Tips: Try to use 6-32 machine screws in your design. This will keep everything consistent with everything else on the machine and be easily servicable by the same size nut driver used on everything else.

3 - If you have a 3D printer you can print your own using 1 of the 2 designs on Thingiverse. Which design may depend on the speakers you want to use.
Tips: Be ready to drill out the bolt holes with a 9/64 drill bit for 6-32 screws. Every printer prints a little different and odds are high the holes will be undersized. Make a trip to the hardware store after you print the adapters not before. This will save you from having to go to the hardware store twice(like I did). Have some silicone handy or even hot glue to close up air gaps. (see below)

I started by printing one of the adapters on thingiverse as I thought it would be the most common choice. However; it didn't take long to see there was a fundemental flaw with the design. Then with some googling and looking at other vendors selling adapters and full.speaker kits, I was like holy crap they are all making the most basic design errors.

Let me explain - speakers make noise by creating air pressure waves. As the speaker cone moves forward the air infront of the cone creates a high pressure zone, while the air behind the cone creates a low pressure zone. When those two zones are allowed to mix the result is noise cancelation. This is why a speaker sounds so much different when it's in an enclosure versus just sitting commando on a desk. You lose almost all low end, it becomes very muffled and you lose tons of sound volume/decibals too. In order to get the most out of your speakers you don't want these two air pressure zones mixing with each other.

All the adapters I have seen, all have big gaps allowing the front and back air pressure zones to mingle and create noise cancelation.(See Pictures) To resolve this be ready to use silicone or hot glue to close up these gaps.

So what am I going to do? I don't like the idea of sealing my speakers up with goop. Mainly because it's not conducive to swapping in and out speakers for testing. Instead I'm going to bang my head against the wall and design a better adapter. One that will stop the air mixing and also be able to mount the JBL/Infinity Plus-One speaker designs.

I'll post what I come up with next.

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Certainly, both are very good ideas.

Black_Knight By all means ask away, it's a good question.

I'll be trying something like this out in a few weeks, it'll be good info to have if something is out there.

You could just go the wired route for now. Cheap, easy, and foolproof which maybe a good thing for your launch party.

You can get plug and play line out adapters from Pinsound or Pinnovators(there are a couple others) then take it straight into your arcade amp. If you want to hook up multiple games - Put line outs on all of them, and run them all to a mixer and then to your arcade amp.

This would get you a very usable solution you can get running today while you research Bluetooth possibilities.

The wired in method, is something I'm hoping to test in the coming weeks and report on.

If you try it please post it hear for everyone to see it with your thoughts and results etc.

Quick update - Been working on new speaker adapters.

Been really busy at work and haven't had much time to design these and do a writeup. I should be able to post more in depth tonight or tomorrow.

Here is a look where I'm currently at.
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Bax1 Right now none of what I have done has required amplification.

I'll test out some amplification options in future posts.

DIY Round 4.2...

Designing a better 5.25 speaker adapter.

I spent some time designing a better 5.25 adapter. The 2 things that needed to be solved were:
1 - Being able to seal off the back of the speaker from the front to maximize sound output and avoid unnecessary noise cancellation.
Why? See my DIY 4.1 post above showing some of the downsides of many of the adapters available for print or purchase that have big gaps allowing the air pressure zones from in front and behind the speaker to quickly mix and noise cancel.
2 - Having the ability to mount different types of speakers like the JBL and Infinity Plus one designs that do not allow for flush speaker mounting.
Why? Most aftermarket speakers are designed to be top mounted e.g., to be dropped into a hole and then bolted down from the front/top. Mounting a speaker flush or against its face and bolting it down from behind is less common and presents some challenges. Things like protruding tweeters and cone suspensions need room in front of the speaker to function. There are far fewer flush mount style speakers to choose from because of this.

And since we are on the DIY kick, out comes the CAD while watching shows like Peacemaker, and Book of Bobba Fett etc.... and several nights of listening to the 3D printer whirr whirr it's way around for hours on end. And the test fitting and more test fitting.. and the.... well, you get the idea. As I said before I'm not certain this is a cost-effective method versus buying a readymade solution. I'm going to have to rewatch those shows because I definitely missed 50% or more of what was going on.

The design I came up with allows the speakers to be mounted as drop in speakers. This allows for all kinds of speakers to be used. Tweeters sticking out, all cone and suspensions designs (Like JBL/Infinity) can also be mounted. There are no air large air gaps and the front of the speaker is now sealed off from the back.

I thought they turned out pretty good. But take a look for yourself and let me know your thoughts.

There are a couple things that need tweaking, and a couple of really interesting future improvements have also come to light. But more about those in a later post.

They did require some modification to the stock speaker plates. But this wasn't terrible and only took a few minutes. First I used the spacer as a template and centered it up on the plate using the studs that held the stock 4" speakers in place. I then drilled two new mounting holes. Next I cut off the stock studs with a dremmel. Then I put two new 6/-32 bolts through the new holes and ran a nylock nut down the bolt to lock it to the plate. A little black sharpie action and the plates get reinstalled.

Now you just mount the speakers into the adapters and bolt the speakers to plate.

Next on the agenda is to go through all the different speakers I purchased to test things like, sound quality, loudness etc. The couple brands I will be comparing are Kicker, JBL, MBQuart, and Alpine. If anyone would like to see another tossed in there let me know, but do know my wallet is getting a little stretched so there are limits to what I can do. Maybe someone can send me something they have laying around?

After that we will move onto sub woofers, external sub woofers, home stereos, and probably some amplification options as well.

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Just a quick side post... Glass Rattle

Even with the stock Stern amp, I am able to get my bass kicking with improvements thus far. With this comes the inevitable glass rattle.

Now there are some aftermarket tapes you can buy, and they do the job well. But reading some of these manufacturers descriptions like - Proprietary Technology, Anti rattle technology, Patented.... You'd think this was designed by teams of rocket scientists to be used on space missions. hmmmmm....

Either way, at some point you will need to deal with glass rattle as your sound system comes up to speed. You can buy some of these ready to go tape solutions or you can DIY it.

For me the solution is as easy as a 5cent O-ring I found amongst my plumbing repair tools I had in my garage. I just picked out a thin O-Ring from a kit and place it between the glass and trim at the top of the machine and rattle be gone.

You have to remember to remove them when taking the glass out. But it's provides an easy enough solution for now.

Has anyone else come up with anything interesting to quite glass rattle?

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Still working on sorting out the 5.25" testing/comparison. Trying to standardize things to be able to give a good comparison has been a bit difficult.

Also just added these two popular choice to the testing line up.

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Thank you - I don't know what I'm going to do with the spacers at this point. Right now it's just a means to an end, to allow me to test out more speaker options.

The only hard part is the ton of speakers and options I'd really like to test out and provide some real world feedback on. Not just back box speakers, but also subwoofers, external powered subwoofers, audio adapters, mixers, amplifiers of various types, power supplies, and a couple new things I'd like to try that I haven't seen before. Just gathering this stuff in one spot to test can get expensive. I only have 5 machines to ultimately put gear in, so many of these options are not going to be useful in the end.

If I could compare everything I would, one big collective of info would be awesome(atleast to me it would be). I'm not really looking to start a business. But haven't thought of an effective way to get my hands on things to try without the cash layout. Amazon's returns will only go so far.. lol

Deleted

Update...

For testing and comparing the 5.25" speakers here is what I'm going to do.

I'm going to do a Mono etc Mono style fight. We'll have one speaker go up against another side by side. Then we'll pick a winner and explain the results.

We'll do this for all the speakers being collected, and soem speakers will end up duking it out a few times. Overall this will ultimately end up ranking them Darwin style. I'll also be able to evaluate each for their pro's and cons and catalog the results for future reference in more of a master list.

Doing it this way will also be conducive to fair testing between speakers given the testing mechanisms I am putting together.

Testing mechanism - In order to test the speakers I'll be pulling a signal directly out of a pinball machine, GZ in this case. The EQ or high/low filter will be turned off in order to get a flat full range signal that can be sent to the speakers. The speakers will be mounted in their own small sealed boxes with a switch controlling which speaker gets the signal at a time. This will allow instant on and off comparisons between the speakers. I may also end up using the cabinet signal as that amp chip is running bridged giving it 2x the wattage and a nice mono signal.

There will be no sound equipment, scope, microphones, analyzers used in this process. These are pinballs after all, and there is no need to go all audiophile super geak with it. Just a seat of pants what can you hear with what we are given type comparison. If you can't hear it naturally, then it probably doesn't matter.

If anyone wants to isee/include some speakers in the shootout and are willing to help out by sending a pair my way and I'll send them back to you, then touch base via DM.

Pic is just for fun.

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While we are waiting for the 5.25 speaker boxes to arrive(tracking says Saturday) - Let's line up some speaker comparison/fight matches.

What speakers would you like to see compared directly to one another?

The gladiators I have on hand are: Pyle, Kenwood, JBL, MBQuart, Kicker, and Alpine.

While we are waiting, I've been moving on with the next subject we'll tackle. Powered subwoofers, audio adapters, and some DIY improvement mods. Pic shows some of what's cooking next...

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Very cool - can you list out the gear you used for this mod? Speakers, sub, how you got the sound out etc.

Can vendors please stop bullying other pinside members in this thread via posting in this thread or PM. It's just silly.

This thread is a great resource for anyone looking to do sound mods on their own. Mods are fun, diy is fun, tinkering is fun.

Again no disrespect to any vendors making products and solutions in this area - it's about pinside members sharing their DIY mods. That's all.

While I'm waiting on parts to compare the 5.25 speakers,

Here is more powered subwoofer testing I've been doing.

This started out as a Mono price 8" subwoofer. I replaced the sub with a Kicker I had for testing in pins. Then plugged up the port with a chewed up dog toy to stop some port noise and artifacts coming from it.(it's just a tennis ball) Then swapped out the 60watt amp plate with a 150watt amp plate.

It's a Franken sub for sure, and not very practical. But sure does sound good now.

I still may work on fixing the port noise, and add some sound deadening inside the enclosure, but that's for another day though.

Anyway - just a small side distraction as we get back on topic.

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That's awesome you got it figured out. So many people are going to bennifit from this.(Really cool place you have there too)

Can you go into more details on the transmitter setup? Will you be able to switch between pins?

I'm pretty positive changing the setting from 4ohm to 8 ohm simply limits the gain for the speakers.

8 ohm puts out more power because it is expected to be running the higher impedence speakers.

4ohm restricts the power a bit so the output of the speakers will end up being similar to what it would be running an 8ohm speaker.

This is why an aftermarket 4ohm speaker sound better on the 8 ohm setting- because it is sending more power to the speakers. You will reach amp clipping running 8ohm setting on a 4ohm speaker, whereas you will most likely not reach amp clipping on the 4ohm setting running 4 ohm speakers.

Most aftermarket car speakers are all now 4ohm. And many start to sound better with a little more power being put to them.

I could be wrong about what the 4ohm/8ohm setting actual does - but after all the messing around that I've done this seems to be what is happening with it as far as I can tell.

The fight card for this week is set

Each speaker was randomly drawn and this is the first 3 rounds. Should be good fights as all of these look to be very evenly matched.

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I have a Pinsound adapter in CN5 - I'll give it a check to confirm the 4ohm/8ohm gain reduction (although it sounds like others have confirmed this too) It does seem odd - but who knows how Stern is creating the line out in the first place. It could be coming after the chip versus being split before the chip. Or maybe the way Stern is using the 4ohm versus 8ohm setting has way more to do with the gain going into the chip versus regulating what comes out of the chip itself. The CN5 taps in after the point the gain is being adjusted with the setting versus before. Now that I type it - sure seems like the more likely scenario.

As far as things not sounding correct when you remove the cabinet speaker, this doesn't surprise me. The cabinet speaker is more like a full range speaker. It's filling in a bunch of your mids right now.(though probably sounds terrible). When you go straight to the subwoofer, you drop out all of that mid help you were getting. Now everything from mid-bass up has to be covered by the Kenwood's. Which just isn't going to happen. (See my review of the Kenwoods by the end of this week). Your sub is covering the very low freqs and the Kenwood's are filling in the very high end. That leaves the big gap you are saying feels flat - because it is.

Finally got the testing apparatus and wiring harness ready to go.

Tomorrow I'll get the first round of speakers installed and it's fight time...

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MBQuart vs Alpine tonight

I'm not sure what will make it into my Stranger Things yet. I still have a bunch of playing around to do before deciding.

I'm getting ready to play with some amplification. I'll be testing a Dayton Audio 2.1 amp pretty soon.

I made up a plug and play adapter out of 14ga, which is bigger than the stock wires running to the lower speaker - but I had the 14ga on hand. I'd feel 16ga would have been just fine though.

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Still plenty of speaker fights to come. Next up is probably the most anticipated by everyone - Pyle vs Kenwood.

But I'm still working on other mods at the same time and this just came in today... Looking towards some amplification testing.

At first glance, this looks like it'll get the job done. I would have liked to have seen a bit of a bigger power supply included - 24v x 6amp for 150 watts would have been ideal. But the included supply will provide a bit more than double the Sterns theoretical.

Something else also came in today - but no peeking just yet. I have a few things that need to get ironed out first, to include amplification, or this new idea will not work.

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I wonder how many volts the Spike board is running at. The stock amp chips run from 12-27v but their output can vary quite a bit depending on the voltage being supplied.

I do like the idea of a separate amplifier though, running its own supply that is completly isolated from anything in the machine. It's simplicity, easily removed, easily replaceable, easily updated, and removes any risk of damage to the game itself in anyway.

I do like the simplicity of just one switch turn on too. Maybe some sort of relay triggered via the machine could do the job?

Google or Alexa could do it too. Just plug both the amp and pin into smart sockets.

Mattyk

What John said here sums it up well.

Thanks for the feedback guys - I appreciate it. It's fun to tinker with this, but hearing that it's helpful is also rewarding and makes it worth while to do.

Pugster

You should be able to flush mount the DS Kickers without much issue. You may want to verify this though - as I have not seen a DS in person to know.

Mounting flush will only require you to cut off the 4" mount studs, then line up the new 5.25's and drill new holes. Put some bolts through the new holes and run a nut down and you are ready to mount the speakers.

If you have a 3D printer, you can print an adapter from Thingiverse. (Go back to page 2 I think, there are some posts on this)

You can also buy a ready to go spacer with hardware and save the time.

If you want speaker lights, you could get a one and done solution when you buy the speaker light kit.

Flush mount gives you some options, which unfortunately can make it more complicated to decide.

No, you did not wire it wrong. Positive to positive and negative to negative is correct. The problem(and this will be in a future writeup) is the way the speaker line level is converted down to a regular line level inside the sub. There is a little more going on, but basically there isn't a loud enough signal left after this conversion for the sub to then amplify.

I've done a little playing around with this already and ran into the same issue.

What you could try is run your line into both left and right terminals of the sub input. Though I'm not hopeful this will do much for you.

The next is to use the Pinovators sub tap. This takes the cabinet speaker level and does the conversion to something closer to a regular line level. You would then plug this into your RCA input. This will make a huge difference and get you to where you were expecting to be (As it did in my testing).

There are some other rotations as well, but I haven't gotten there yet with testing to see what works best.

Deleting this as I'm not sure I understood what you wrote as a possible solution to trying to flush mount these.

I'm guessing different subs will respond differently. The different manufacturers will most likely have different conversion/filter ratio's used to convert the speaker level input down to the line level it uses internally. I've only used 2 Monoprice subs thus far for testing. (I did have a Polk PSW10 but it was dead on arrival)

Another factor could be the pin system and how much juice it sends down the line. The higher the wattage the higher the signal will be after the conversion. (this could apply to the Gottlieb)

Lastly - If you are modifying the signal going to your cabinet speaker. E.G. you have the EQ set to reduce the low end to keep the stock woofer from breaking apart. Then you are also taking the low end out of the signal going the sub. This can be a big deal as the signal is even lower for those frequency range. (this could apply to the Gottlieb too)

Just some rando thoughts.

Did the regular stereo out on the Pinsound adapter work? Or did neither of the two outputs work?

https://www.amazon.com/Molex-Connector-Matched-18-24-Mini-Fit/dp/B074M1RZHX

The female side has extra side clips on it - but just ignore them or snip them off. I'm sure there is a better place to get them - but this was quick and convenient.

Glad you like them! It is going to get even better when you replace the stock cabinet speaker.

I decided there will be no more speaker fights between the Pyle's and Kenwoods, they are permanently off the fight card. These are just blaaaahhhhh speakers at best compared to the others that have been tested. I'll never put them in a back box, and I'm reaching the end of my return period for them. I'd rather send them back and use the $'s to get a set of the Alpines. I'll still test other budget friendly speakers but have decided if they are not good enough for the back box, then they are pretty much done in the speaker fighting ring.

Next up will be a couple writeups on getting sound out of your pin, the options available, some of the gotchas, and some of the pro's and cons.

External sub testing is getting pushed out. I had purchased a Monoprice 8", Monoprice 12", and a Polk PSW10. The Polk was DOA and was returned, the MonoPrice 12" had a constant line noise when plugged in, so that was discouraging. The 8" didn't sound the greatest - so I decided to turn it into a Franken sub(see a few posts back) and now it's connected to my soundbar on my living room TV.

And with that.... I'm moving onto new shiny things....
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that's awesome - It's one of the whhhoooaaaa moments. When you hear all that information and sound that is missing. The information is there in the media, and the stock amp can give it to you, you just need a good set of speakers and it comes to life. Now that you heard it you can never go back. Sucked me right down the rabbit hole...

There are at least 2-3 more of those whhhhooaa moments waiting for you when it comes to sound upgrades.

If you own a GZ - you can test this out.

Play the 4th song in the DJ mixer. About 20 seconds in there is this transition bass line effect.. Goes BBBRRRRRRRZZZZZZZZZZZZ.... During all the speaker testing this was an area I listened for over and over. On the stock speakers it was barely noticeable, on the Pyles and Kenwood's it was laughably no different, the MBQuart was better, the JBL and Alpines even better - but the Kickers... Oh my - it went right through you with this shivering bass tone... Morning wood type stuff... This directly translated to the effects during game play too.

If you haven't heard it - then you are not missing it. Once you hear it, you can't unhear it..

I'm looking forward to finding out what I'm missing on my other games. ST is next up.

Unfortunately - I don't know what PP or FF is?

Also - just as a side note. You need to be careful looking at the ratings and specs displayed on manufacturers sites and websites. Many times, the information tends to be over exaggerated to say the least. I've even seen differences between the manuals in the box, the specs on the MFG page, and the specs on the re-sellers page. Kind of why I did the testing mono et mono, and physically in hand, versus just off specs. As far as sensitivity, the Kickers were the only ones that truly stood out as being louder(more efficient you could say) than the others I had tested.

As of right now the two speakers I like the most(out of the ones I physically tested) are the Kickers CS and the Alpine S. That could change with more testing in the future. But out of the 6 I tested these are the two I would go with.

I thought there was a difference between the two. It was all in the low end, the mids and highs were the same. In my opinion - If you have the ability to drill holes, and don't mind making a trip to the hardware store, I'd go with the 5.25's and just modify the speaker plate. (Or 3D print and adapter if that's easier) But I do understand this can be a pain, and the simplicity of bolting in the 4" is appealing. I do feel the 4" is going to give you much better performance and fill in all the missing frequencies left off by the stock speakers. It's a simple remove and replace type improvement.

You'll get maximum benefit when you also change out the cabinet speaker(regardless of 5.25 or 4" choice) The cabinet speaker is a full range speaker. It will have a ton of overlap with the backbox speakers. And this can get really ugly at louder volumes. They won't be in alignment - and the difference in quality will drive you crazy. But as soon as you replace the cabinet speaker with a good 4ohm sub, you will cut out a ton of that overlap and extend into the lower ranges. This I feel is a good stopping point for many people and one of the first whooooaaa moments.

double post

Good-Times

Looks awesome! Thanks for trying this out and taking the time to post it here.

Is this the Rockford Fosgate P3SD2-8?

Unfortunately there isn't an available manual. It's all trial and error. Maybe this is a good idea for a future writeup - document what we have found so far.

Based on what I've seen so far - there is very little improvement to be had by making adjustments in the setting while still using the stock speakers. Sterns default settings(when running the stock speakers) is pretty good. However, once you start swapping out speakers then making adjustments becomes important to get them balanced and sounding their best. (Better worksharing)

Yep, you are following correctly.

If I was ONLY adding an external subwoofer, then don't bother changing any of the speakers inside the pin. (cabinet or backbox)

The stock cabinet speaker is more like a full range speaker. It doesn't play very low in the first place. By adding a powered subwoofer you will be adding frequencies below what the stock cabinet speaker can currently play accurately. So in essence you are expanding the sound spectrum, and round out the bottom end a bit.

As a side note, make sure you remove the plastic speaker grille/mesh that is under the cabinet speaker. It resonates at medium volumes and will sound like distortion or clipping. By doing this you can get a little more headroom in the volume department.

As best some of us can tell, the 8ohm/4ohm setting just reduces the gain going from the DSP to the amp. Probably to help control the amplifier output going to the speakers and reduce clipping/distortion depending on the speaker ohms installed. (Just theory though not proven)

Can confirm that there does appear to be a sound difference when using 4ohm vs 8ohm settings.(Besides volume/output) Have no idea why, but others have also felt this was happening too. Only thoughts could be, By running 8ohm setting the gain is higher and maybe high enough to introduce distortion into the pre-amified signal.

You are right, an unmolested signal would be nice. The best option to get that right now is to set the DSP to none, then pick 8ohm or 4ohm and send that to your amp etc.

@Steal16

You are fine - the Kickers are designed to be flush mounted(mounted face down) You are touching the gasket around the speaker that you are supposed to be against when mounting it this way. You do not have to be against the metal basket(frame of the speaker) when mounting it flush. Let it touch the gasket so it give it more surface area for a decent air seal and you are good to go. Then go take a look at post #79 and see where I talk about noise cancelation with this design. Then take the 4 little slots and hot glue them, silicone them, or stick in something to block them up if you can. You don't want air from the back of the speaker and the front of the speaker mixing so quickly. This has a noise canceling effect. (Glad to see it's being acknowledged as a thing now #88)

This is the area/gasket you should be mounted up against.

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A quick note/recap of my impressions on speakers swaps.

Stock speakers - the backbox and cabinet speakers are cheap ful range speakers. Both run at 8ohms. Both appear to be of same brand and type. They can not play low, and they can not play high either. But he range they play is recognizable, and they align well with each other for what they are.

People like to add a separate powered subwoofer because the subwoofer will extend the low range frequencies that you can not get from the stock speakers. Which helps you hear the low end that was not audible before

What about the highs, just like the low end the stock full range speakers can't produce all of the high end either. A reasonable fix to this is to replace the back box speakers with coaxial speakers that have a seperate tweeter that can play into the higher frequency range.

Extending the lows, and extending the highs will allow you to hear so much more that is in the sound tracks, effects, callouts etc.

A seperate powered subwoofer is relatively easy add on, but maybe a little expensive. (starting maybe @$200 for what you need for an ok setup. Low end solved, kinda..(powered subs really vary in sound quality, boomy bass is cheap, tight bass will cost you much more)

Replacing the backbox speakers is a bit more complicated, though cheaper than adding a seperate powered sub. 4" flush mount speakers like the Kicker CS4 is a great bolt in, requiring no adapters, snip and crimp a couple wires and done. $65 maybe. This will extend you highs, and you will hear some new things you were missing. This is great for playing at lower/normal volumes, and will take a little tweaking in the EQ to flavor just right.

But their is a problem when you keep the stock full range cabinet speaker in place and only swap out the backbox speakers. Now you are trying to align a 4ohm speaker set with an 8ohm cabinet speaker. Trying to find a balance to these two will be difficult. Because the cabinet speaker is a full range it is going to have a large overlap of frequencies with your new back box speakers. These overlapped frequencies are not going to be in sync, they will be out of phase with each other, creating distortion, cancellation and sounding terrible together. This becomes more apparent the higher you turn up the volume, which is why this is only a good solution for more normal volume levels.

You could go into the EQ and drop out all frequencies above say 500hrtz going to the cabinet speaker to help reduce the amount of overlap.

So solving the high end is just a little more involved. But is so worth it as there is so much more info to hear in the high range.

So what to do - In my opinion only, The pin first came alive to me when I replaced the backbox speakers and then replaced the cabinet speaker with an 8" subwoofer mounted inside. All that overlap and misalignment issues stopped - the frequencies that do overlap are closer in alignment to each other given higher quality speakers and both being 4ohms. This solution allowed frequency extension into both the highs and lows - win win..

By using good quality speaker replacements you are also one step closer to adding amplification to take it all to the next level should you choose to.

Hope this helps a bit.

Good job on the re-design.

What amp did you go with? Does it have bluetooth?

Nice - I have one here I'm getting ready to put in and compare to the Dayton.

You may want to slow down on connecting the power to internals of the cabinet. I complelty understand the one button turns it all on thing. BUT - there is a huge bennifit I missed when first thinking about this.

At first I thought nothing of the Bluetooth feature - just kind of a waste. But holy cow it's actually awesome! Probably the killer feature when you have good backbox speakers, and a good sub in it. It will easily out perform any Bluetooth speaker and should sound as good if not better than any $300-$500 bookshelf system. At first I thought it was a novelty use thing. But I use it all the time now to listen to music or podcast while tooling around the house.

By keeping it 2 button operation, you can just walk by and turn the amp power on and start streaming without having to turn the pin on.

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Sure thing -

Starts with a pinsound adapter that plugs into the CN5 connector on the main board. Then I plug a 3.5mm male to male cable into the L+R plug on the pinsound adapter. The other end of the 3.5 goes straight into the Dayton amp. The Fosi amp will require a splitter at the amp. A female 3.5mm to L+R RCA as the Fosi only takes RCA input style.

Let me know if you want any specific pictures, or any questions.

Very nice - now you can stop here and have great results. Or jump to the next level by adding an amp at any time.

@Steal16

You IMDN will rock. You will be very pleased with the results.

It'll be a good idea to bolt it down, it'll rattle a little with it just sitting in the studs.

No toe clamps needed. I just removed the stock studs. (Tap them out with a hammer, and wiggle them out from the bottom) Then pick up some #8 wood screws from the hardware store and some #8 washers. Screw down the speaker from the inside using the sane holes the studs were in. Take the ground strap and pull it up and between the speaker and washer when putting that upper right screw in. You can scrape away some paint on the sub for a better safety ground if you want.

Yes you will have fighting.

Just not in the sense you are thinking.

2 big things happen when using missmatched ohms.:
(note: this doesn't necessarily apply to the stock Stern speakers as they are mismatched but function decent together for what they are, and have a few things going on in the DSP to help. Stern still sets the DSP of the cabinet speaker to 8ohm - and what that setting is really doing is still kind of a mystery)

It becomes difficult to match the volume levels of the different speakers. 4ohm speakers allow the amps to push more power to them than an 8ohm. speaker on the same amp. 4ohm backbox speakers will play louder than you 8ohm cabinet speaker. (even though the 1 amp is bridged) It will be difficult using the internal DSP settings to get it to match. I mean you will achieve balance at 1 volume level, but as you change volume you will be chasing it again. It will not stay consistent throughout the volume range.

Second is speaker alignment. Where you have frequency overlap it becomes important to have your speakers in alignment with each other. Which means the need to produce the overlapped soundwaves at the exact same time. Any delay between the two speakers means the sound waves become out of phase with each other. Think of one speaker playing a bass note, then a fraction of a second later the next speaker fires off the exact same bass note. It's kind of like an echo, only it won't sound like one. Being out of alignment can happen for so many reasons accross the entire frequency range. Misalignment will produce distortion, muddle, cancellation, boominess etc.

This is one of the reasons just changing the backbox speakers only, will provide some sound quality improvements but has its limitations. And why I was having so much trouble with this until the cabinet speaker was replaced.

Can mismatched speakers work at all then? Well yes, the stock speaker ohm mismatch does work, kinda, on its own level. But it all comes undone with quality aftermarket speakers.

Car audio uses missmatched speakers all the time, they are also running seperate amps with different power outputs etc, speakers are in many different locations etc. But this isn't your 1982 Datsun with Jenson receiver and Audiovox 10 band EQ/booster that has been drywall screwed under your dash. These systems have evolved significantly and many now rely on DSP calibrations to bring everything into alignment.

Do I think we need to be going to this level on a pinball machine? God no! But if we pay attention to the basics, we can get a really good sounding system at the DIY level that will be cheaper than, and significantly better sounding, than aftermarket solutions being sold today.

Man - there has to be something better for me to do on a Sunday morning..... Time to get out of the house....

Kickers are unique in that they can be flush mounted. If you own a dremmel and a drill you can mount them to the stock speaker plates.

The DIY route - Cut off the 2 studs that held the 4" stock speakers in. Position the Kicker on the plate and center right up. Then mark the mounting holes. Drill the holes, pickup some #10 bolts and put them through the new drilled holes, then run a nylock nuts down each one. You just added 4 new mounting studs for the 5.25" pattern. Bolt on the new speakers and done...

Or you can buy new plates, or buy some 3D printed adapters that are ready to go.

Finished the mount for the Fosi amplifier. I used purple, because I think it will end up on Deadpool or Stranger Things eventually.

I may try out a Nobsound amp as well. Then I'll report back on all 3 amps with pro's and cons.

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Just a little something I'm working on to tighten up my wiring harness.

I really want the wiring for the external amplifiers to be extremely clean looking and well laid out when finished.

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Finished up a mount for the amplifier power supply/brick and some cable clips to keep everything tidy on the underside of the pin.

Time to hit the hardware store for some more screws.

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Why exactly would you want it inside the cabinet? It's not rhetorical, it's a legit question.

Sure you can tuck it away inside the cabinet. Nothing wrong with that. I understand it comes down to personal taste and reasons. But you will miss out on a ton of features that make this awesome if you tuck everything inside. So let's see if I can give some good reasons to mount it outside rather than inside.

People pay good money for adapters, plates, buttons etc. just to be able to control their pins volume via external controls. You can save that money by mounting these mini amps up front like I did. Now you get full volume control outside the machine. As a bonus you also get easy access to basic adjustments like sub woofer volume etc. A big plus.

You also get full control of the Bluetooth which is a HUGE killer feature. You will need access to the amp to be able to toggle the input(on some amps) and have access to the volume without having to dig around the inside of the pin.

By putting the amp inside you also lose the ability to turn the amp on and off. Sure you can wire it to one of the boards to draw power from. It does make sense on a high level to just have 1 button whole system power turn on. I thought this way at first too. Until I realized I'd rather have use of the killer Bluetooth feature without also turning on the pin. After some thought I also realized that not many people are comfortable tapping power off the Spike boards directly, there is just an element of risk there that people feel uneasy about taking. Having a completely separated system removes that risk, and the associated roadblock to doing this DIY. Not to mention it will help when it comes time to sell the pin too.

So why would you want to mount everything inside again?

I'm not attacking or being mean. nor do I think you were. It was legitimate questions from both sides, My original reasons for placing everything inside ended up getting turned inside out for some reasons I did not expect would even be a thing..

The 110v inside the cabinet is a standalone, always on, power source. The amp would always remain on in that case. There are some interesting ways around this a couple pages ago - it can be done.

Black_Knight

I haven't hit them, they seem out of the way for me. I did have my GF come over and turn the volume down while I was playing and on my way to only my 2nd Billion game on GZ and I drained with the distraction. uhhhgggg

Could always make a mount to go just inside the coin door, where the coin box is. Maybe one that angles up so you can read it and make adjustments easier.

Good thought on putting the brick inside. I'll need to look at it. It maybe difficult getting to the back hole though as the lead wire may not be long enough.

@Johny_I

Cart may not work. That is a good reason to add to the list. What type of cart and how wide is the platform?

Yep, this.

Bluetooth is only for input into the amplifier - not an output to headphones.

barroncaliber

Great question. The cabinet and backbox are less than ideal enclosures. We can still get good and worth while results working with what we have. I did look at some JBL studio monitors and was thinking it would be pretty cool if they could shoehorn into the backbox somehow. But man that would be allot of work. Super cool though..

But back to working with what we have. Without a calibration microphone, it will be difficult to really build the correct size enclosure for the chosen speaker set. That's kind of allot of work too.

There are some things we can tighten up a bit.

The backbox is quite large for those drivers in general, and it's just full of air leaks. Another issue, just as important, is that it's a single open enclosure that 2 drivers, running different signals are sharing airspace in. The cabinet speaker, which runs a different third signal, also shares airspace with the back box too due to the big cable openings between them. This sharing of space means as different signals play from each speaker different pressure waves are created behind the speakers. Leading to distortion and cancellation. So putting them in their own airspace would produce some improvement. For the smaller backbox speakers figuring out the exact volume of a box etc. will not be as important as it would be for a sub woofer. So just giving them their own airspace would be a plus. I have been thinking about a solution for a while now, something I did earlier was meant to be the foundation for it. I'm just not there yet, as I got distracted by shiny things.

There is nothing wrong with your thoughts on sectioning off the speakers with foam board. It should work pretty well. You may have to move the power supply up or just enclose that portion too. The only other thing I'd think about is try to close off the bottom area because of the big holes that go down into the cabinet.

For the cabinet - There are a few considerations depending on what you want to do with the speaker. Let's say you want to run a subwoofer in there. (80-160hrtz ish and below) there is a big airspace available, which is nice for a sub. However; it's full of air leaks and holes - hardly the best scenario. But not exactly bad either. I've gotten some great real word results with it. I have a friend coming over to check out what I'm up to - and I'm pretty sure he'll poop himself when he hears it. We can enclose the subwoofer inside the cabinet, this wouldn't be too hard to do. But now we need to design an enclosure with the correct internal volume. If we want to port it, then that is a big can of worms - more measurements, more work, it's all speaker specific too. And if we are doing all of this without using a calibration microphone to truly measure the results then we may just be chasing our tail. Did we just go to far with all of this, it is a pin Afterall? @Good_Times took a bit of a different approach - he looked at what types/specs of subwoofers were available that would operate better in a free air enclosure and went that route to great results as well. One of the advantages of running a sub woofer in this location is there will be minimal frequency overlap with the backbox speakers and very little alignment issues that may create distortion. You also get that real nice tactile feedback, like a shaker on roids.

I guess in summary - I agree with you that the enclosure situation stinks. But it's not terrible either, and should not stop anyone from making some of the mods listed here. With real world testing, there is still significant benefit to make it worthwhile. It's the 80/20 rule. 80% of the results can be had for 20% of the effort and expense. The last 20% will take 80% of the budget and effort to achieve. Doesn't mean we can't chip away at them though, keep exploring the rat hole, find solutions and where the reward vs effort make sense.

If I can get my hands on a Rush LE, I'll break that rule and do a ton of things that defy all common sense.... 3 Subwoofers, backbox enclosure, light show topper.....

I'm not sure I see the speaker in the picture.. Is it a long array mounted on the side of the backbox? Are there two of them for each side? Post a couple more pics if you can - it's an interesting option that hasn't been posted yet.

Ideal - no, but works just fine. The hole is kinda big for the 4", so it's not bad for the 5.25". ( go back to page 2 or 3 there is a picture of what the cutout looks like) The cone area is about the size as the cutout. You could get a hole saw and open it up, or dremmel it out. But don't feel it's necessary or a priority as far as sound quality goes.

Just want to make sure I understand(and some who maybe reading this) what you are thinking for switched power connection.

What you are suggesting is simply attach/tap/solder whatever power supply being used for the amp directly to the switch terminals(or wires) between the switch and Sterns internal power supply.

As an example - If running a power brick type supply for an amp. The just snip off the plug, and solder the wires to the out side of the switch terminals in the back box. (or tap the wires or whatever type connection) Keeping the power supply to the amp complelty standalone.

Do I have this right?