I'm using one of the Fossi 2.1 amps plugged into the service outlet. All is great while playing but there is a residual buzz from the speakers when idle. Should I connect a ground wire from a chassis screw to the ground braid of the pin?
Turning the page..... let's move on...
Backbox speaker baffles...
Before I started speaker fights I needed to figure out a good way to test speakers in a similar enviroment with direct A B testing. The speakers couldnt be mounted in the backbox because it took too long. By the time one set was replaced with a new set A B details were out the door.
I experimented with the speakerds outside the backbox and used these baffles to put the speakers in. This worked ok , but had its own issues. One of the issues was my hands are not big enough to hold a seal all the way around the speaker. When little gaps opened up you could hear the noticable cancellation occuring. This then turned into speaker boxes, wiring and the speaker fight apparatus was created. But, it gave me a future idea for the baffles..
With a little trimming, hot glue, new wire leads, and my speaker adapters, we now have sealed off speakers. The speakers now have their own airspace to work in and cancellation is reduced even further.
So how doess it sound? There was improvement throughout the low end and mid bass. This helped round out the backbox sound. This was more noticeable at lower volumes as the backbox speakers could deliver more bass without needing the sub to assist as much.
I would have liked to have done true A B testing in the backbox, and really focus on the differences. But I didn't have the time, and couldnt think of a way to do it properly fast enough. I had observed the difference the baffles made in earlier testing, so I was going with that in mind.
I need to get a calibration microphone at some point, this would make A B testing much easier and would better define what is actually going on.
Is it perfect? no, not at all. I'd guess there isn't enough airspace, the foam itself flexes and has some resonance to it. I'll need to do a mannual frequency sweep and check for any resonance or artifact issues.
There are still some improvements to be made, but they may have to wait until I get my hands on a microphone.
Note: This was done on the Kicker CS5 speakers.
20220310_203523 (resized).jpg20220310_203719 (resized).jpg20220310_204430 (resized).jpg
Quoted from Gogojohnnyquack:I'm using one of the Fossi 2.1 amps plugged into the service outlet. All is great while playing but there is a residual buzz from the speakers when idle. Should I connect a ground wire from a chassis screw to the ground braid of the pin?
i havew the same problem with that amazon lepi amplifier . it works but it is buzzing like a mofo and i can not get rid of it . i think if you try to ground the power adaptor it will fry . not sure about the screw
Quoted from Gogojohnnyquack:I'm using one of the Fossi 2.1 amps plugged into the service outlet. All is great while playing but there is a residual buzz from the speakers when idle. Should I connect a ground wire from a chassis screw to the ground braid of the pin?
Quoted from barroncaliber:i havew the same problem with that amazon lepi amplifier . it works but it is buzzing like a mofo and i can not get rid of it . i think if you try to ground the power adaptor it will fry . not sure about the screw
I run the Fosi to the wall, and it doesn't have much line noise at all. Even at full volume. The power supply does not have a true earth ground. Maybe grounding it could help. Try plugging directly to the wall first.
The Dayton I have does have some line noise. It s not too bad, and also has an automatic feature that cuts it when no sound is being played. (plugged directly into wall too). The Dayton does have a true ground.
You could raise the volume on your machine, therefore lowering the volume on your amp. This will help reduce some of the audible noise at the amp on higher amp volumes.
Quoted from Gogojohnnyquack:I'm using one of the Fossi 2.1 amps plugged into the service outlet. All is great while playing but there is a residual buzz from the speakers when idle. Should I connect a ground wire from a chassis screw to the ground braid of the pin?
Thanks for the feedback so far. I should add that the noise goes away if I flick the switch on the amp to Bluetooth mode.
Quoted from Gogojohnnyquack:Thanks for the feedback so far. I should add that the noise goes away if I flick the switch on the amp to Bluetooth mode.
My Fosi(BT30D) does not have a switch for bluetooth.. it selects Bluetooth and rca input automatically. Priority goes to RCA and overrides when Bluetooth device tries to connect.
Guessing we have different Fosi amps.
Quoted from davegauth:My Fosi(BT30D) does not have a switch for bluetooth.. it selects Bluetooth and rca input automatically. Priority goes to RCA and overrides when Bluetooth device tries to connect.
Guessing we have different Fosi amps.
Yeah, mine has a little toggle switch. Still need to hook it up along with he cabinet replacement. Been slowly looking at the config and hadn't realized that the 7pin cn5 has a sub out. But guess that's for standalone and won't go into the amp and won't be used.
Quoted from Sleal16:Yeah, mine has a little toggle switch. Still need to hook it up along with he cabinet replacement. Been slowly looking at the config and hadn't realized that the 7pin cn5 has a sub out. But guess that's for standalone and won't go into the amp and won't be used.
What model Fosi?
Derp. Nvm. Looked at the toggle and read what was above it and thought it correspondent to each other. See now it's a power toggle, lol. Yeah it's still on my bench so had just a couple of quick glances as I've been ordering little adapters and such
I put in the Kicker 5.25”s in my Godzilla and they sound amazing but I am getting a crackle or pop on the Blue Oyster Cult song intro on Godzilla multi ball. No other issues with any callouts or music. Anyone else have this going on?
Quoted from Selig:I put in the Kicker 5.25”s in my Godzilla and they sound amazing but I am getting a crackle or pop on the Blue Oyster Cult song intro on Godzilla multi ball. No other issues with any callouts or music. Anyone else have this going on?
Clipping, either from the amp or speakers. just means you are reaching the limits of one of them. Try going into the EQ and lowering the bass a couple steps. For the backbox - turn the first setting at 32hrtz all the way down. The speakers can't play that low anyway, but it will stop the amp from trying to create and push that signal. Take the next 2 and just drop them by 2 clicks.
Driving low notes takes allot of power. The stock Stern amp doesn't have much power in the L+R backbox speakers to begin with. You can reach these limits quickly and it will clip.
Small speakers can't and won't play very low - trying to push high powered low signals to them will clip at the speakers.
So just dial the bass off a tiny bit.
Time to make this thing sing....
Already have a Polk PSW10 underneath. When I'm done, the neighbors are going to think we have dinosaurs IN the house ....!
Was quite fitting as I went to get all the components in for this picture, the "attract mode" music of the John Williams score activated. It's like it knew: "Someone is going to make me sound amazing soon!"
I'm being lazy and just asking here: does the backbox board have a 12v source to power the pre-amp equalizers ? N/M 0 found my answer: CN6 of the power distribution board.
Save $10 if you're buying multiple pairs of the Kicker speakers and some little extras included in this 2-pack of speaker sets:
https://www.amazon.com/46CSC54-Speakers-Bundle-Protrusion-Tweeters/dp/B08JPTKMZG/ref=sr_1_1_sspa
I finished wiring up the BP car amp in my IMDN. It's not finished for mounting and cable routing, but I am happy with the results so far. Qualitatively, it has a very clean sound and pushes the speakers as loud as I can stand without any hint of clipping. Here's the basic of my setup;
1) BLAUPUNKT 4-Channel AMP1604 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q28CNSN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s01 $66
2) DC 12V 30A PS https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XJVYDDW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s01 $25
3) Cerwin Vega 4x6 backbox speakers. $40 I bought these cheap speakers to see what it would be like to make a 4x6 adapter instead of going to 5 1/4" Not the right choice for sound quality. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/3d-printing-sharing-thread-lets-better-the-hobby/page/24#post-6589169
4) Pyle 8" cabinet sub - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007JV7F4W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00 $20
I made my own CN5 adapter to route pre-amp audio to the line level input of the amp. If you missed it, TinyBlackDog has a great write up here; https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-rush-owners-club-1/page/37#post-6808277. I wired the power supply AC input to the game power supply AC input so that it will also switch on from the cab power switch. I wired the remote turn on for the amp directly to 12v so it turns on when power is applied. It's also feasible to wire the amp remote turn a spare 12v feed from the game and just plug the new power supply into the always on service outlet.
Some interesting observations;
1) I spent a lot of time futzing with the game audio settings. My main strategy was to zero everything out in the game and get as close to the sound I wanted by adjusting the amp settings first. I used amp channels 1/2 for the cab speakers. These can be set to high pass filter with adjustable frequency cutoff. For channels 3/4 driving the cabinet sub, there is a low pass filter also with an adjustable cutoff plus a separate bass 0-18db boost. Also each pair has their own gain settings for fade control. After that I started to shape the game EQ to fine tune the sound, but really wasn't terribly happy. It wasn't until that I *completely turned off the EQ and tone controls* that I got an obvious cleaner sound. I have come to really not like how the Spike system digitally manipulates the audio through these settings (including the suspect speaker impedance options).
2) I went a little conservative with my PS selection. I put a meter on the 12v power input into the amp and with it cranked up louder than I would ever have it, it peaked at 4.2amps. So....the 30A ps is certainly overkill. Next game, I'll drop down to a cheaper 8A (mayyyyybe 5A) passive cooling PS.
3) I used a 5pin connector housing for making the CN5 adapter as I didn't have any 7-pin laying around. It took a little sanding down on part of the connector to make it fit. You could get away with a 4-pin connector too.
4) I plan to still plug this into my 12" powered external sub for the extra low thud. The 8" cab sub sounds great, but just cannot compete on the really low frequencies. Also, I have found that after a certain volume, there is no hope of controlling glass or other cabinet rattles. I had to pull out my coin box because it would buzz at certain frequencies.
5) I put an early generation pinwoofer setup in my Metallica. It does sound good, but I figured I could put piece together a better setup for less. As it sits, this setup cost about $150 compared to $240 for the original pinwoofer (and $370 for the current version). I consider this a successful experiment.
PXL_20220313_051509430 (resized).jpgThat amp looks interesting... thanks for giving the current draw.
Since it's running off a switching power supply, I wonder if adding a big capacitor on the 12V would help the amp.
It was night and day when my homebrew got capacitors on the coil power.
Quoted from hank527:Does anyone have the files to print these?
Quoted from RobF:I finished wiring up the BP car amp in my IMDN. It's not finished for mounting and cable routing, but I am happy with the results so far. Qualitatively, it has a very clean sound and pushes the speakers as loud as I can stand without any hint of clipping. Here's the basic of my setup;
1) BLAUPUNKT 4-Channel AMP1604 amazon.com link » $66
2) DC 12V 30A PS amazon.com link » $25
3) Cerwin Vega 4x6 backbox speakers. $40 I bought these cheap speakers to see what it would be like to make a 4x6 adapter instead of going to 5 1/4" Not the right choice for sound quality. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/3d-printing-sharing-thread-lets-better-the-hobby/page/24#post-6589169
4) Pyle 8" cabinet sub - amazon.com link » $20
I made my own CN5 adapter to route pre-amp audio to the line level input of the amp. If you missed it, TinyBlackDog has a great write up here; https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-rush-owners-club-1/page/37#post-6808277. I wired the power supply AC input to the game power supply AC input so that it will also switch on from the cab power switch. I wired the remote turn on for the amp directly to 12v so it turns on when power is applied. It's also feasible to wire the amp remote turn a spare 12v feed from the game and just plug the new power supply into the always on service outlet.
Some interesting observations;
1) I spent a lot of time futzing with the game audio settings. My main strategy was to zero everything out in the game and get as close to the sound I wanted by adjusting the amp settings first. I used amp channels 1/2 for the cab speakers. These can be set to high pass filter with adjustable frequency cutoff. For channels 3/4 driving the cabinet sub, there is a low pass filter also with an adjustable cutoff plus a separate bass 0-18db boost. Also each pair has their own gain settings for fade control. After that I started to shape the game EQ to fine tune the sound, but really wasn't terribly happy. It wasn't until that I *completely turned off the EQ and tone controls* that I got an obvious cleaner sound. I have come to really not like how the Spike system digitally manipulates the audio through these settings (including the suspect speaker impedance options).
2) I went a little conservative with my PS selection. I put a meter on the 12v power input into the amp and with it cranked up louder than I would ever have it, it peaked at 4.2amps. So....the 30A ps is certainly overkill. Next game, I'll drop down to a cheaper 8A (mayyyyybe 5A) passive cooling PS.
3) I used a 5pin connector housing for making the CN5 adapter as I didn't have any 7-pin laying around. It took a little sanding down on part of the connector to make it fit. You could get away with a 4-pin connector too.
4) I plan to still plug this into my 12" powered external sub for the extra low thud. The 8" cab sub sounds great, but just cannot compete on the really low frequencies. Also, I have found that after a certain volume, there is no hope of controlling glass or other cabinet rattles. I had to pull out my coin box because it would buzz at certain frequencies.
5) I put an early generation pinwoofer setup in my Metallica. It does sound good, but I figured I could put piece together a better setup for less. As it sits, this setup cost about $150 compared to $240 for the original pinwoofer (and $370 for the current version). I consider this a successful experiment.[quoted image]
Great work!
Really glad you did this with a car amp with power supply and posted it here. Can you take some detailed picks once you are done tightening things up, and keep everyone updated?
Writeups like this really help show people that even though it maybe a little intimidating at first - this isn't rocket science. A little knowledge, some help, and a little patience and everyone can get great results.
Quoted from RobF:1) I spent a lot of time futzing with the game audio settings. My main strategy was to zero everything out in the game and get as close to the sound I wanted by adjusting the amp settings first. I used amp channels 1/2 for the cab speakers. These can be set to high pass filter with adjustable frequency cutoff. For channels 3/4 driving the cabinet sub, there is a low pass filter also with an adjustable cutoff plus a separate bass 0-18db boost. Also each pair has their own gain settings for fade control. After that I started to shape the game EQ to fine tune the sound, but really wasn't terribly happy. It wasn't until that I *completely turned off the EQ and tone controls* that I got an obvious cleaner sound. I have come to really not like how the Spike system digitally manipulates the audio through these settings (including the suspect speaker impedance options).
This is the key factor that got me from scratching my head to finally enjoying my upgraded audio: Completely disable the Spike EQ by setting it to "None". There is some voodoo at play in their DSP that nobody seems to understand, and this is the closest we can get to bypassing it entirely. Setting both speakers to the same impedance setting (I use 4 ohm) also seems to help.
Thanks for your great writeup.
Quoted from TinyBlackDog:This is the key factor that got me from scratching my head to finally enjoying my upgraded audio: Completely disable the Spike EQ by setting it to "None". There is some voodoo at play in their DSP that nobody seems to understand, and this is the closest we can get to bypassing it entirely. Setting both speakers to the same impedance setting (I use 4 ohm) also seems to help.
Thanks for your great writeup.
Agreed. There is some software funny business going on with these settings. I prefer leaving the speaker settings to default 8 ohm. To me it seems that this is as close to the direct pass through and the 4ohm is some weird post pre-amp attenuation. The fact that changing to 4ohm for one of them affects the sound of the other is a hint that something is not quite right. When I moved both to 4ohm, and then cranked the volume back up, it sounded like the pre-amp was getting overdriven, and then attenuated so it sounded a bit muddy compared to the same volume with the 8ohm settting. This is all qualitative at this point, so I could be wrong.
That said, with the factory EQ off the sound is certainly much cleaner but depending on the game and the tonal characteristics of the replacement speakers, there may still be a need to shape the sound with an external EQ.
Quoted from hank527:Does anyone have the files to print these?
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5317827
Here is the remixed speaker adapters specifically designed for the kicker csc5. Uploaded to thingiverse with permission from @Sleal16. He deserves the credit. Buy some of his awesome mods if you want to show support. I only slightly enlarged the holes to fit an m4x16mm bolt and uploaded it.
Quoted from davegauth:Another 2.1 mini amp to test out.[quoted image]
We should post pictures of what all of these amps look like on the inside. I bet they are all pretty similar if not almost identical.
Quick reality check using the Boss AVA-1404 pre-amp equalizers:
Back in 2009-2016, Stern hooked their speakers up in series. Using the above diagram of the inputs for the 1404s, I connected L+ and R+ to the Stern factory wiring for the left backbox speaker, and L- and R- to the Stern factory wiring for the right backbox speaker. This is what I did for ACDC, Metallica, and Iron Man.
For Jurassic Park Pro, the speakers are now wired in parallel. Here's the question: would I take L+ and L- wires and use that as the input for the left backbox speaker and use R+ and R- wires as the inputs for the right backbox speaker? Pretty sure that's the case - would like to have someone do a quick "trust but verify" with me here.
Then of course, I will run wiring from the equalizer to the left and right speakers (same as I did when the speakers were wired in series as described earlier...for simplicity sake, I'll be using the green and purple wire sets as outputs in the below diagram):
ALSO....I saw CN6 on the power supply board puts out 12V. I'm a bit nervous about using that to power both equalizers as supply issues may limit the availability of a new node board. I'm thinking I'll just use a desktop power supply to source 12V off the supplies harness and plug it into the 120V outlet. While it won't look 100% clean, I'd rather do that than risk blowing a node board. Thoughts?
b
Quoted from NPO:Quick reality check using the Boss AVA-1404 pre-amp equalizers:
[quoted image]
Back in 2009-2016, Stern hooked their speakers up in series. Using the above diagram of the inputs for the 1404s, I connected L+ and R+ to the Stern factory wiring for the left backbox speaker, and L- and R- to the Stern factory wiring for the right backbox speaker. This is what I did for ACDC, Metallica, and Iron Man.
For Jurassic Park Pro, the speakers are now wired in parallel. Here's the question: would I take L+ and L- wires and use that as the input for the left backbox speaker and use R+ and R- wires as the inputs for the right backbox speaker? Pretty sure that's the case - would like to have someone do a quick "trust but verify" with me here.
Then of course, I will run wiring from the equalizer to the left and right speakers (same as I did when the speakers were wired in series as described earlier...for simplicity sake, I'll be using the green and purple wire sets as outputs in the below diagram):
[quoted image]
ALSO....I saw CN6 on the power supply board puts out 12V. I'm a bit nervous about using that to power both equalizers as supply issues may limit the availability of a new node board. I'm thinking I'll just use a desktop power supply to source 12V off the supplies harness and plug it into the 120V outlet. While it won't look 100% clean, I'd rather do that than risk blowing a node board. Thoughts?
All sounds about right. If you are hesitant to take power off of the CN6 directly - then don't. Run a seperate power supply, and tap into the power just after the switch.
Go back a page or two as we talked about doing this, as an option to get one switch power turn on of game and amps - without having any connections and no risk to the boards within the game.
Quoted from davegauth:b
All sounds about right. If you are hesitant to take power off of the CN6 directly - then don't. Run a seperate power supply, and tap into the power just after the switch.
Go back a page or two as we talked about doing this, as an option to get one switch power turn on of game and amps - without having any connections and no risk to the boards within the game.
Excellent, thanks, davegauth ! I'm thinking I'll use a supply that
RobF used in his earlier post and then tapping into the power just after the switch like you suggested. Appreciate the insight!
Quoted from NPO:Excellent, thanks, davegauth ! I'm thinking I'll use a supply that RobF used in his earlier post and then tapping into the power just after the switch like you suggested. Appreciate the insight!
Just FYI, for my next install, I will probably be going with this 10A PS instead;
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01E6RMASC/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_ZDMEKM76TABVSDVJA9MB
Updated -
I've been hearing about the Pinsound adapter not outputting a signal via the subwoofer channel. I initially experienced this problem too. I've been using the Stereo output to drive the amps but first time plugging an external sub into the subwoofer line it was dead.
Looking over the wires and pin out diagrams available, it does appear to be wired correctly to the plug.
It took a little jiggling at the wires going into the connector and it's working now.
However, the output signal is very low. Even with max adjustment in the DSP EQ and set at 8 ohm to get the most out of the signal - it's really not adequate.
Swapping the sub to the L+R Stereo output(same that I run the amp on) yields the same results. So a bit strange....
Sub is Franken sub - which runs great on my TV soundbar that has a Sub RCA out.
Quoted from RobF:Just FYI, for my next install, I will probably be going with this 10A PS instead;
amazon.com link »
For my own edification , why? Purely wanting to learn here.
Quoted from NPO:For my own edification , why? Purely wanting to learn here.
The original one that I bought was 30A and certainly overkill for the needs. Going to 10A is still more than plenty and it is cheaper, smaller and passively cooled (no fan).
Quoted from RobF:Just FYI, for my next install, I will probably be going with this 10A PS instead;
amazon.com link »
Spend the extra money for something like a Meanwell.
I had one of these fail due to vibration. It's your typical cheaply made PS. Don't mount it next to a subwoofer, lol.
Quoted from RatShack:Spend the extra money for something like a Meanwell.
I had one of these fail due to vibration. It's your typical cheaply made PS. Don't mount it next to a subwoofer, lol.
Noted. One of these means this manufacturer specifically? Also, curious how did you determine it was vibration failure?
Quoted from Gogojohnnyquack:We should post pictures of what all of these amps look like on the inside. I bet they are all pretty similar if not almost identical.
The cheap ones are all very similar inside. You can find them on Aliexpress for even cheaper than Amazon. They all have the same basic components. Notice most have the same 5 knobs controlling the same functions. Some are laid out a little different or are made in custom batches with company names on them so they don't look so cheap or can be passed off as made in America. Even these cheapies will produce decent sound for sure, but when you get up into the amps that are $60 or more the sound should be a lot better.
https://smile.amazon.com/AOSHIKE-DC12V-24V-Subwoofer-Amplifier-Bluetooth/dp/B07R4RKXHK/ref=sr_1_19
71k0E-fv98L._AC_SL1000_ (resized).jpgQuoted from RobF:Noted. One of these means this manufacturer specifically? Also, curious how did you determine it was vibration failure?
Yes, that specific mfg & model.
The subwoofer next to it was going pretty hard at the time it failed, and you could hear something rattling around inside after it was pulled.
Just wanted to pass along that the speaker adapters so generously put up on thingverse by Space Coast Pinball and later modded and made public by Cheko’s mods work great on the Kicker DSC series as well. I decided to try out the DS because it’s a little less expensive and according to Kicker requires less power to drive. Since I’m not going to add external amplification (so far!) I thought I’d give them a go. When I get my GZ I’ll post results if this thread isn’t toast.
Thanks again to those that made these files available, you guys are awesome.
47461DB7-A08B-4CE1-9875-A84EDBCEF0E3 (resized).jpegFF0D1776-7458-43B7-BCE4-4889A66C8566 (resized).jpegQuoted from metallik:Is that in your GTB Rock game? Guessing from the view inside the door...
You are correct.
This might be the best sounding stereo I have.
Quoted from Pugster:Just wanted to pass along that the speaker adapters so generously put up on thingverse by Space Coast Pinball and later modded and made public by Cheko’s mods work great on the Kicker DSC series as well. I decided to try out the DS because it’s a little less expensive and according to Kicker requires less power to drive. Since I’m not going to add external amplification (so far!) I thought I’d give them a go. When I get my GZ I’ll post results if this thread isn’t toast.
Thanks again to those that made these files available, you guys are awesome.
[quoted image][quoted image]
I have 4” kickers in my Rush but you guys have convinced me to go 5.25.
Currently printing the mounts. Looking forward to getting these installed.
I -thought- 4” kickers + sub was good enough. Then I plugged in headphones and remembered there is much more to the music.
Thank you all for the tips!!
I just replaced my 5.25" Kenwood speakers with KICKER CS Series CSC5 5.25-Inch speakers on my Rush LE. I like the sound a lot better. It is cleaner with better bass. Thanks for all the tips. No separate amp for now.
DIY Round 7....
Let's talk amplifiers.. The second Whoooaaa moment...
This is an area that scares many people and probably one of the biggest roadblocks that stops people from going any further in the DIY sound upgrade area. What amplifier do I use, how do I wire it, where do I connect it, and so on...
I covered the stock class D amplifier chips built into the Spike board a couple pages back, with its specs and limitations. Now it's time to upgrade that stock amplifier in order to get the most out of your pinball sound system. Updated the stock amplifier can net you 2x,3x, even 4x more power going to your speakers, and it's easy and inexpensive to do.
Let's demystify some things...
The first question usually is - What amplifier do I get, will it work with my machine? The answer is as simple as - Any, and Yes.
Any amplifier will work, however; you are most likely going to settle into a class D mini amplifier that will cost around $30-$125ish. If you are spending more for an amplifier you are going beyond the upper limits of "Bang for the Buck" performance levels. Class D simply refers to the type of amplifier, sometimes it's called Digital Amplifier - though it's incorrect as that is not what the D stands for. All you need to know about class D amplifiers is they based off amplifier micro chips, they are inexpensive to make, small in size and are very efficient turning most of their input power into output power with little heat generation. The majority of consumer level amplifiers sold in big box stores like Best Buy etc. are now Class D. Almost all blue tooth speakers are Class D. Almost all bookshelf speakers are Class D. They are everywhere. Mini-amplifiers are simply just the parts of the electronics that are associated with amplifying the incoming signal(RCA) and sending out an amplified signal that powers the speakers. When you strip all the extra stuff off of a bookshelf stereo - CD Player, speakers, casing, display, buttons etc. You are left with just the amplifier electronics allowing mini amps to be small and inexpensive.
Will it work with my machine? YES it will work with ANY machine. There is no mystery here, no dark secret, no rocket science or engineering needed. If you can get an audio signal out of your machine, then you can use any amplifier on any machine you want. Think of it this way, If you purchase a nice bookshelf stereo for your home, do you wonder if it will be compatible with your phones Bluetooth? Probably not - you assume that as long as the Bluetooth connects to the stereo then the phone will provide the necessary signal to the stereo and the stereo will simply do it's thing. Your pinball machine is no different. You are basically turning your pinball machine into a stand alone stereo. Yes the speakers are still mounted in the cabinet, and your amplifier will live somewhere in or on the machine. But they will be completely separate systems, the only link between them will be the sound signal connecting the pin to your new stereo.
Second question often asked - how do I wire it all up? It's easier than you think, so don't ever complicate this to start.
Your amplifier will need 3 things. An Audio signal, speaker wires, and a power source.
- Audio signal, we covered this pretty good a few pages back. In summary, an adapter of some kind will create the RCA level input you need for the amplifier.
- Speaker wires, the stock speaker wires used in your pin will just be disconnected at the speakers and not used anymore. It makes little sense to try re-using the stock wires. They are too small(gauge wise) and too short(length wise) to bother with them. Simply disconnect them, leave them in the pin to hook back up again later, or remove them to keep everything super clean. I'm pretty sure everyone here has purchased a roll of speaker wire and wired speakers before. This will be no different, positive to positive - negative to negative, left - Right - sub. easy stuff. As far as wire size, 18-16ga will do just fine(I use 16ga).
- Power supply. Ok - I admit this is the one that throws everyone for a loop. BUT don't hurt your brain and overthink this one. Eat the elephant one bite at a time and don't get to far ahead of yourself. The most important thing here is how much power do you need and NOT where do I plug it in. This part gets a little technical, because depending on the amplifier you choose to go with, you will have to have an understanding of how to figure out how much power you need and hence the size of the power supply. Fist off - keep in mind power in equals power out.(It's more technical than that, but for simplicity) An amplifier can not put more power than it takes in. So if you have an amplifier that says it can do 50 watts x 2 for the backbox speakers and 100 watts for the subwoofer. Then that adds up to 200 total watts of output. Meaning you will need a power supply that will give you 200 watts of input power. All power supplies will have specs written on them. Output power is generally indicated in Volts and Amps. (Think of a water pipe, volts being water pressure and amps being size of the pipe, and watts being how much total gallons of water made it through the pipe) The formula is simple: Volts x Amps = Watts. In the example above, if you need 200 watts and say your amplifier calls for a 12 volt input. Then you can do the back math and determine that your power will have to be 12volts x 16.7amps = 200 watts. If you were using a mini-amplifier with a requirement of 24 volts input then it would be 24volts x 8.4amps = 200 watts. Easy right? No matter which type of power supply you choose to use, a plug and play power brick, or metal cased power supply with terminal lugs - the math will be the same.
Curve ball time...... There are a couple rules of thumb when choosing a power supply.
- Amplifiers are stupid optimistic about their ratings claims. In the case above that amplifier you determined needed 200 watts. Really only needs about 60-70% of that to run optimally. Anything beyond that will usually push the limits of the amp into distortion, clipping, and noise that isn't pleasant. That 1984 Hugo says it can do 85 on the highway, but you are best to stick with 50mph for best results. There is much more that goes into this, but as a general rule of thumb plan for about 50-75% of capacity and you will be just fine.
- Voltage matters. Amplifiers will put out the most wattage when the voltage matches the higher end of their specifications. This is super technical, I'll link to a video if you want to geek out. But in general a simple Class D amplifier is limited by the voltage it receives. The voltage determines the rails, or parameters/limits the amplifier can amplify in. So if you have a mini amp that says it can operate from 12 - 26 volts, you will get significantly more output running it with a 24 volt power supply versus sticking a 12volt supply on it. Again, super technical - just remember run closer to the upper limits of the input voltage.
For the geek in you -
- There are other considerations and technical things that can come up. But for now let's not over think this, as it's really pretty easy.
And lastely, Where do I connect the amplifier power to in the machine? This is easy - and one step at a time, keep it simple.
- Start by wiring it directly to the wall with a separate plug. This will work just fine. Then with everything working you can think about how you want to connect it to power inside the pin and make it a 1 button turn on. There are a few ways to wire it into the pin for 1 button turn on. However; the general consensus is not to tap any power off the boards. Yes, it can be done - but it is simply not worth doing it. It's best to keep the boards completely isolated from your amplifier wiring and avoid any possibility of board issues later. AC Power for your new amp can simply be tapped in right after the main power switch in the backbox.
And there you have it - Amplifiers demystified. Hopefully - maybe - just a little bit.....
Hope this helps, feel free to add to this or correct/highlight any helpful thought you may have.
Next writeup - we'll cover the types of amps that can be used and pro's and con's etc.
Quoted from davegauth:DIY Round 7....
Let's talk amplifiers.. The second Whoooaaa moment...
This is an area that scares many people and probably one of the biggest roadblocks that stops people from going any further in the DIY sound upgrade area. What amplifier do I use, how do I wire it, where do I connect it, and so on...
I covered the stock class D amplifier chips built into the Spike board a couple pages back, with its specs and limitations. Now it's time to upgrade that stock amplifier in order to get the most out of your pinball sound system. Updated the stock amplifier can net you 2x,3x, even 4x more power going to your speakers, and it's easy and inexpensive to do.
Let's demystify some things...
The first question usually is - What amplifier do I get, will it work with my machine? The answer is as simple as - Any, and Yes.
Any amplifier will work, however; you are most likely going to settle into a class D mini amplifier that will cost around $30-$125ish. If you are spending more for an amplifier you are going beyond the upper limits of "Bang for the Buck" performance levels. Class D simply refers to the type of amplifier, sometimes it's called Digital Amplifier - though it's incorrect as that is not what the D stands for. All you need to know about class D amplifiers is they based off amplifier micro chips, they are inexpensive to make, small in size and are very efficient turning most of their input power into output power with little heat generation. The majority of consumer level amplifiers sold in big box stores like Best Buy etc. are now Class D. Almost all blue tooth speakers are Class D. Almost all bookshelf speakers are Class D. They are everywhere. Mini-amplifiers are simply just the parts of the electronics that are associated with amplifying the incoming signal(RCA) and sending out an amplified signal that powers the speakers. When you strip all the extra stuff off of a bookshelf stereo - CD Player, speakers, casing, display, buttons etc. You are left with just the amplifier electronics allowing mini amps to be small and inexpensive.
Will it work with my machine? YES it will work with ANY machine. There is no mystery here, no dark secret, no rocket science or engineering needed. If you can get an audio signal out of your machine, then you can use any amplifier on any machine you want. Think of it this way, If you purchase a nice bookshelf stereo for your home, do you wonder if it will be compatible with your phones Bluetooth? Probably not - you assume that as long as the Bluetooth connects to the stereo then the phone will provide the necessary signal to the stereo and the stereo will simply do it's thing. Your pinball machine is no different. You are basically turning your pinball machine into a stand alone stereo. Yes the speakers are still mounted in the cabinet, and your amplifier will live somewhere in or on the machine. But they will be completely separate systems, the only link between them will be the sound signal connecting the pin to your new stereo.
Second question often asked - how do I wire it all up? It's easier than you think, so don't ever complicate this to start.
Your amplifier will need 3 things. An Audio signal, speaker wires, and a power source.
- Audio signal, we covered this pretty good a few pages back. In summary, an adapter of some kind will create the RCA level input you need for the amplifier.
- Speaker wires, the stock speaker wires used in your pin will just be disconnected at the speakers and not used anymore. It makes little sense to try re-using the stock wires. They are too small(gauge wise) and too short(length wise) to bother with them. Simply disconnect them, leave them in the pin to hook back up again later, or remove them to keep everything super clean. I'm pretty sure everyone here has purchased a roll of speaker wire and wired speakers before. This will be no different, positive to positive - negative to negative, left - Right - sub. easy stuff. As far as wire size, 18-16ga will do just fine(I use 16ga).
- Power supply. Ok - I admit this is the one that throws everyone for a loop. BUT don't hurt your brain and overthink this one. Eat the elephant one bite at a time and don't get to far ahead of yourself. The most important thing here is how much power do you need and NOT where do I plug it in. This part gets a little technical, because depending on the amplifier you choose to go with, you will have to have an understanding of how to figure out how much power you need and hence the size of the power supply. Fist off - keep in mind power in equals power out.(It's more technical than that, but for simplicity) An amplifier can not put more power than it takes in. So if you have an amplifier that says it can do 50 watts x 2 for the backbox speakers and 100 watts for the subwoofer. Then that adds up to 200 total watts of output. Meaning you will need a power supply that will give you 200 watts of input power. All power supplies will have specs written on them. Output power is generally indicated in Volts and Amps. (Think of a water pipe, volts being water pressure and amps being size of the pipe, and watts being how much total gallons of water made it through the pipe) The formula is simple: Volts x Amps = Watts. In the example above, if you need 200 watts and say your amplifier calls for a 12 volt input. Then you can do the back math and determine that your power will have to be 12volts x 16.7amps = 200 watts. If you were using a mini-amplifier with a requirement of 24 volts input then it would be 24volts x 8.4amps = 200 watts. Easy right? No matter which type of power supply you choose to use, a plug and play power brick, or metal cased power supply with terminal lugs - the math will be the same.
Curve ball time...... There are a couple rules of thumb when choosing a power supply.
- Amplifiers are stupid optimistic about their ratings claims. In the case above that amplifier you determined needed 200 watts. Really only needs about 60-70% of that to run optimally. Anything beyond that will usually push the limits of the amp into distortion, clipping, and noise that isn't pleasant. That 1984 Hugo says it can do 85 on the highway, but you are best to stick with 50mph for best results. There is much more that goes into this, but as a general rule of thumb plan for about 50-75% of capacity and you will be just fine.
- Voltage matters. Amplifiers will put out the most wattage when the voltage matches the higher end of their specifications. This is super technical, I'll link to a video if you want to geek out. But in general a simple Class D amplifier is limited by the voltage it receives. The voltage determines the rails, or parameters/limits the amplifier can amplify in. So if you have a mini amp that says it can operate from 12 - 26 volts, you will get significantly more output running it with a 24 volt power supply versus sticking a 12volt supply on it. Again, super technical - just remember run closer to the upper limits of the input voltage.
For the geek in you -
- There are other considerations and technical things that can come up. But for now let's not over think this, as it's really pretty easy.
And lastely, Where do I connect the amplifier power to in the machine? This is easy - and one step at a time, keep it simple.
- Start by wiring it directly to the wall with a separate plug. This will work just fine. Then with everything working you can think about how you want to connect it to power inside the pin and make it a 1 button turn on. There are a few ways to wire it into the pin for 1 button turn on. However; the general consensus is not to tap any power off the boards. Yes, it can be done - but it is simply not worth doing it. It's best to keep the boards completely isolated from your amplifier wiring and avoid any possibility of board issues later. AC Power for your new amp can simply be tapped in right after the main power switch in the backbox.
And there you have it - Amplifiers demystified. Hopefully - maybe - just a little bit.....
Hope this helps, feel free to add to this or correct/highlight any helpful thought you may have.
Next writeup - we'll cover the types of amps that can be used and pro's and con's etc.
In case this question was covered before in a post and I missed it (LOTS of info about setups and IFs)...With the cab speaker and the amp. Is the cab speaker beign swapped into the sub connection of the newly installed amp? or staying where its at? Is the connected sub in your previous adapter post still connected to the pinsound adapter?
Theres that nice write up in the Rush thread with the upgraded audio equipment I need to go back and re-read. Theres a lot of stuff I need to re-read, but just havent had time yet to put in the amp yet either.
Quoted from Sleal16:In case this question was covered before in a post and I missed it (LOTS of info about setups and IFs)...With the cab speaker and the amp. Is the cab speaker beign swapped into the sub connection of the newly installed amp? or staying where its at? Is the connected sub in your previous adapter post still connected to the pinsound adapter?
Theres that nice write up in the Rush thread with the upgraded audio equipment I need to go back and re-read. There's a lot of stuff I need to re-read, but just havent had time yet to put in the amp yet either.
Yep, the first whoooaaa moment comes when you swap out the stock speakers with some good ones. This includes the backbox speakers and the speaker in the cabinet. The cabinet speaker really needs to be swapped to more of a subwoofer (versus mid-bass, or another full range etc) This helps with speaker alignment(overlap of frequencies) etc. You can drive them pretty good with the Stock stern amp and it makes a huge difference.
Then when you are ready for the next step- you get the next whooooaaa moment when you add an amplifier to power those new speakers. Many amplifiers now come in a 2.1 flavor. meaning they have 2 channels(A Left and a Right) that you will wire the backbox up with, and a Subwoofer channel that will go too the cabinet speaker/sub. In most cases a 2.1 Class D amp in a 2.1 flavor will have 2 amplifier chips inside of it. One will be running in stereo and split it's power between the two speakers. The second chip will be running bridged and will combine both it's channels to run one mono signal for the sub. It's usually why you see specifications of output power listed as 50x2 + 1x100. If you are running a car amplifier, then you would want a 4 channel amp and you would bridge 2 of the channels to make a dedicated sub channel.
There are definitely some different directions to be had too - it is absolutely possible to run 2 separate amplifiers to power the backbox and then the subwoofer off the second amp. But you will be pushing beyond bang for the buck, and easier connection of a 2.1 mini amp readily available. I've seen some people just run a separate powered subwoofer, and completely disconnect the cabinet speaker.
Quoted from davegauth:Yep, the first whoooaaa moment comes when you swap out the stock speakers with some good ones. This includes the backbox speakers and the speaker in the cabinet. The cabinet speaker really needs to be swapped to more of a subwoofer (versus mid-bass, or another full range etc) This helps with speaker alignment(overlap of frequencies) etc. You can drive them pretty good with the Stock stern amp and it makes a huge difference.
Then when you are ready for the next step- you get the next whooooaaa moment when you add an amplifier to power those new speakers. Many amplifiers now come in a 2.1 flavor. meaning they have 2 channels(A Left and a Right) that you will wire the backbox up with, and a Subwoofer channel that will go too the cabinet speaker/sub. In most cases a 2.1 Class D amp in a 2.1 flavor will have 2 amplifier chips inside of it. One will be running in stereo and split it's power between the two speakers. The second chip will be running bridged and will combine both it's channels to run one mono signal for the sub. It's usually why you see specifications of output power listed as 50x2 + 1x100. If you are running a car amplifier, then you would want a 4 channel amp and you would bridge 2 of the channels to make a dedicated sub channel.
There are definitely some different directions to be had too - it is absolutely possible to run 2 separate amplifiers to power the backbox and then the subwoofer off the second amp. But you will be pushing beyond bang for the buck, and easier connection of a 2.1 mini amp readily available. I've seen some people just run a separate powered subwoofer, and completely disconnect the cabinet speaker.
But pretty much you're ignoring the sub connection from the 7pin direct output, right? And just using the l/r connection by itself?
Quoted from Sleal16:But pretty much you're ignoring the sub connection from the 7pin direct output, right? And just using the l/r connection by itself?
Yes, exactly. The sub output is just dangling from the CN5 Pinsound adapter. What I have going into the amp is just the L+R stereo output from the CN5 pinsound adapter. The 2.1 amp is then creating the lower frequency sub output to drive the subwoofer inside the cabinet, from the L+R CN5 output.
Quoted from davegauth:Yes, exactly. The sub output is just dangling from the CN5 Pinsound adapter. What I have going into the amp is just the L+R stereo output from the CN5 pinsound adapter. The 2.1 amp is then creating the lower frequency sub output to drive the subwoofer inside the cabinet, from the L+R CN5 output.
Awesome! Thanks for the info. That was the kinda last note on my to-do for this. Wasnt sure if that 7th pin had any real benefit
Quoted from davegauth:Updated -
I've been hearing about the Pinsound adapter not outputting a signal via the subwoofer channel. I initially experienced this problem too. I've been using the Stereo output to drive the amps but first time plugging an external sub into the subwoofer line it was dead.
Looking over the wires and pin out diagrams available, it does appear to be wired correctly to the plug.
It took a little jiggling at the wires going into the connector and it's working now.
However, the output signal is very low. Even with max adjustment in the DSP EQ and set at 8 ohm to get the most out of the signal - it's really not adequate.
Swapping the sub to the L+R Stereo output(same that I run the amp on) yields the same results. So a bit strange....
Sub is Franken sub - which runs great on my TV soundbar that has a Sub RCA out.
[quoted image]
Never got mine to work.
I know the Polk 10 is a 'go to' sub-woofer but it is strictly a sub. Forget the specs, if you disconnect your speakers it handles the lowest of the lows, no mid bass, and not very well. Yes, it's an improvement, it adds to the sound, but No, it's not a high quality tight sub, there are better sounding subs even half as big.
For those seeking high fidelity I don't think the polk cuts it.
if you stick with it, not expecting it does anything but the lowest end, NPO has the right idea in putting the Mid-range Mid-base Skar speaker to fill in the gap between backbox and sub. IMO
I have kickers 4", polk 10, installed and the skar waiting to be installed. turning on the stock 8" ruined the kickers...the worst of the worst on my machine is that stock 8"..
maybe someday Stern will hopefully redesign for a bigger screen and an internal soundbar or internal satellite speakers with a matched sub that is in it's own cabinet mounted in the place of the 8" free air speaker. My soundbars were awesome, but big. Small soundbar wasn't so great.
JJP seems to have speakers at the top but i don't know if they are enclosed or same lack of quality as Stern.
DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH JJP or other manufacturers and how is their sound?? Thanks
Quoted from DavidNOLA:JJP seems to have speakers at the top but i don't know if they are enclosed or same lack of quality as Stern.
DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH JJP or other manufacturers and how is their sound?? Thanks
2" tweeter and 5.25" midrange. Haven't been able to dig up any info on the OEM of the speakers, which tells me they're generic and could benefit from an upgrade. If they were good speakers they'd be included in the advertising.
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