(Topic ID: 307852)

Improving Sound Quality - The DIY Route

By davegauth

2 years ago


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    #251 2 years ago
    Quoted from Good-Times:

    I’ve just switched to the Kicker speakers (about to change cab woofer and add an amp), but the difference is significant. Mainly with detail like when you drain and the city is on fire (Godzilla), I’m hearing fire for the first time. All the detail is audible now. WAY better. Even if you don’t go any further this is majorly worthwhile here.
    I also removed the foam - less hindrance of the upper frequencies.
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    I'm curious on the adapter used for the kicker, is that the one from thingiverse? if so, did you print as is or did you make adjustments to make the the ring on the speaker fall in on the inside of the printed plate?

    #252 2 years ago

    Funny thing… as I was catching up on the 4” speaker pieces of this I remember that I went through this struggle on a motorcycle that had a sound system… with 4” speakers. And the best of the 4” were the same Kickers reviewed here! Also went through the 4” Polk speakers and even these Powerbass speakers: Powerbass XL-42SS 80W 4.5� Powersports/Marine Coaxial Speaker https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GAS8P66/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_XTFQZM8CXSBQTQ5898EB

    Without a sub the powerbass were pretty good for a motorcycle (over the stockers) but being 3 ohms, they were quieter.

    I have a set of polk D 402s laying around and a set of kickers. I may have to try them but the 5.25 is definitely the ticket if you are willing to go bigger!

    #253 2 years ago
    Quoted from Sleal16:

    I'm curious on the adapter used for the kicker, is that the one from thingiverse? if so, did you print as is or did you make adjustments to make the the ring on the speaker fall in on the inside of the printed plate?

    Yeah this is the one, no adjustments at all. You mount the 4x speaker screws first, with a locknut at the other side. Then you mount the adaptor to the speaker panel. Lastly you mount your speaker to the adaptor plate using another nut tightened agains the locknut.

    You obviously get some 'cropping' due to the opening but at least it tapers nicely.

    Initially I printed with 20% infill and that's fine, but think I'd go 25 or 30% next time to be sure.

    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5182150

    CA5744B7-A45C-4F3C-B792-BF55E13FABF6 (resized).jpegCA5744B7-A45C-4F3C-B792-BF55E13FABF6 (resized).jpeg
    #254 2 years ago
    Quoted from Good-Times:

    Yeah this is the one, no adjustments at all. You mount the 4x speaker screws first, with a locknut at the other side. Then you mount the adaptor to the speaker panel. Lastly you mount your speaker to the adaptor plate using another nut tightened agains the locknut.
    You obviously get some 'cropping' due to the opening but at least it tapers nicely.
    Initially I printed with 20% infill and that's fine, but think I'd go 25 or 30% next time to be sure.
    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5182150[quoted image]

    Gotcha. Yeah just printed mine and the kicker's ring sits on top of the print. I'm debating if its worth taking the model into fusion to widen that opening on the bracket so the speaker fully drops into place

    2022-03-03 21.18.56 (resized).jpg2022-03-03 21.18.56 (resized).jpg2022-03-03 21.19.09 (resized).jpg2022-03-03 21.19.09 (resized).jpg
    #255 2 years ago
    Quoted from Sleal16:

    Gotcha. Yeah just printed mine and the kicker's ring sits on top of the print. I'm debating if its worth taking the model into fusion to widen that opening on the bracket so the speaker fully drops into place
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    That is actually the adapter that I designed. My recommendation would be to put some thin weather stripping around the ring. Simple and cheap and it is nice to have a soft interface which seals the air better.

    Funny how much smaller the kicker is than the Kenwood. The Kenwood sits on there much nicer. I've been considering designing a second much thinner top ring that goes on top AFTER the first ring is secured in place. That way there is a wide ring all the way around for the speaker to sit on and a nice seal with no sound cancelling.

    #256 2 years ago

    oh nice! yeah I like the design and will see about weather stripping. Wont install till over the weekend when I have more time to mess with the wiring. Just planning ahead and getting the parts ready to make it a quick swap

    #257 2 years ago

    That’s weird, mine is completely flush. Your slicer didn’t reduce the model size at all?

    #258 2 years ago
    Quoted from Good-Times:

    That’s weird, mine is completely flush. Your slicer didn’t reduce the model size at all?

    Nope, I think I see the difference. The Kenwoods are front mount so there is no ring that the speaker sits on like that one on the Kicker. The Kickers look like they are front or rear mount.

    One other thing I want to experiment with is a baffle like these I found on Amazon. Given the open air nature of the huge pinball cabinet, I think these will help the speakers to sound better. They seem to be currently out of 5.25 inch so I must have gotten the last set in stock!

    https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08MV3JNXC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00

    #259 2 years ago
    Quoted from Good-Times:

    That’s weird, mine is completely flush. Your slicer didn’t reduce the model size at all?

    Nope. Just measured with a caliper. That measurement matches the model's ring opening in fusion360 about 121.3mm

    #260 2 years ago

    @Steal16

    You are fine - the Kickers are designed to be flush mounted(mounted face down) You are touching the gasket around the speaker that you are supposed to be against when mounting it this way. You do not have to be against the metal basket(frame of the speaker) when mounting it flush. Let it touch the gasket so it give it more surface area for a decent air seal and you are good to go. Then go take a look at post #79 and see where I talk about noise cancelation with this design. Then take the 4 little slots and hot glue them, silicone them, or stick in something to block them up if you can. You don't want air from the back of the speaker and the front of the speaker mixing so quickly. This has a noise canceling effect. (Glad to see it's being acknowledged as a thing now #88)

    #261 2 years ago

    This is the area/gasket you should be mounted up against.

    20220304_071537 (resized).jpg20220304_071537 (resized).jpg
    #262 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    @Steal16
    You are fine - the Kickers are designed to be flush mounted(mounted face down) You are touching the gasket around the speaker that you are supposed to be against when mounting it this way. You do not have to be against the metal basket(frame of the speaker) when mounting it flush. Let it touch the gasket so it give it more surface area for a decent air seal and you are good to go. Then go take a look at post #79 and see where I talk about noise cancelation with this design. Then take the 4 little slots and hot glue them, silicone them, or stick in something to block them up if you can. You don't want air from the back of the speaker and the front of the speaker mixing so quickly. This has a noise canceling effect. (Glad to see it's being acknowledged as a thing now #88)

    Yeah, was thinking of silicone or similar for that gap thing you mentioned. Was restless last night and drew out a quick adapter just for the kickers that might seal it off. Printing right now and will see if it fits fine. Will need around with different options. Thanks!

    #263 2 years ago

    It came out alright. Need to make adjustments to the openings where it gets bolted to the plate. But least it fits snuggly into the bracket and no air gaps

    PXL_20220304_231633383 (resized).jpgPXL_20220304_231633383 (resized).jpgPXL_20220304_231642736 (resized).jpgPXL_20220304_231642736 (resized).jpgPXL_20220304_231705146 (resized).jpgPXL_20220304_231705146 (resized).jpgPXL_20220304_233409370 (resized).jpgPXL_20220304_233409370 (resized).jpg
    #264 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mattyk:

    Thanks! I appreciate the effort you are putting into this thread

    I am surprised to see this reply.
    Dave was a strong advocate of the kicker 4" drop in speaker.
    I would at least change these out....easy and they are sound in your face and ears. the 8 speaker in bottom of cabinet is hard to even hear.
    It is clear that the stock speakers are very low end.
    This weekend i am putting in the 4" kickers, and i already have a klipsh 10 sub. jurassic premium.
    i will disconnect the 8. if it sounds thin, i will replace the 8 with skar 8 midrange speaker.
    BTW, the kickers come with wiring and connectors.

    #265 2 years ago
    Quoted from DavidNOLA:

    I am surprised to see this reply.
    Dave was a strong advocate of the kicker 4" drop in speaker.
    I would at least change these out....easy and they are sound in your face and ears. the 8 speaker in bottom of cabinet is hard to even hear.
    It is clear that the stock speakers are very low end.
    This weekend i am putting in the 4" kickers, and i already have a klipsh 10 sub. jurassic premium.
    i will disconnect the 8. if it sounds thin, i will replace the 8 with skar 8 midrange speaker.
    BTW, the kickers come with wiring and connectors.

    Please report back on how the replacement of the 4” goes with a sub. When I added the sub I thought I’d just leave the stock 4” but if there is a difference I’ll definitely swap them out!

    #266 2 years ago
    Quoted from jid:

    Please report back on how the replacement of the 4” goes with a sub. When I added the sub I thought I’d just leave the stock 4” but if there is a difference I’ll definitely swap them out!

    Yes please! This thread has all but convinced me to go with the Kickers (CS5), and I am leaning towards the 4". I'm also contemplating the 8" swap as I'm a bit hesitant to add an external sub.

    Reason is, I have a PB-1000pro sitting about 20ft away from it for the home theater (Can't recommend enough), and am gravitating towards replacing stock speakers rather than adding another large black box to the floor.

    #267 2 years ago

    I know this is mostly for newer sterns but wouldn’t mind updating my data east speakers. Would that adapter work for a data east if I want to do the 5”? Also, I came across these. Recoil RCX4 Echo Series 4-Inch Car Audio Coaxial Speaker System https://www.amazon.com/dp/B096FPHFRX/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_ST81CF67ETW2SR1N2BSY
    Just looking at the specs, would be no need for an amp since rms is around what the sound board is actually putting out in amps. Thoughts?

    #268 2 years ago

    A quick note/recap of my impressions on speakers swaps.

    Stock speakers - the backbox and cabinet speakers are cheap ful range speakers. Both run at 8ohms. Both appear to be of same brand and type. They can not play low, and they can not play high either. But he range they play is recognizable, and they align well with each other for what they are.

    People like to add a separate powered subwoofer because the subwoofer will extend the low range frequencies that you can not get from the stock speakers. Which helps you hear the low end that was not audible before

    What about the highs, just like the low end the stock full range speakers can't produce all of the high end either. A reasonable fix to this is to replace the back box speakers with coaxial speakers that have a seperate tweeter that can play into the higher frequency range.

    Extending the lows, and extending the highs will allow you to hear so much more that is in the sound tracks, effects, callouts etc.

    A seperate powered subwoofer is relatively easy add on, but maybe a little expensive. (starting maybe @$200 for what you need for an ok setup. Low end solved, kinda..(powered subs really vary in sound quality, boomy bass is cheap, tight bass will cost you much more)

    Replacing the backbox speakers is a bit more complicated, though cheaper than adding a seperate powered sub. 4" flush mount speakers like the Kicker CS4 is a great bolt in, requiring no adapters, snip and crimp a couple wires and done. $65 maybe. This will extend you highs, and you will hear some new things you were missing. This is great for playing at lower/normal volumes, and will take a little tweaking in the EQ to flavor just right.

    But their is a problem when you keep the stock full range cabinet speaker in place and only swap out the backbox speakers. Now you are trying to align a 4ohm speaker set with an 8ohm cabinet speaker. Trying to find a balance to these two will be difficult. Because the cabinet speaker is a full range it is going to have a large overlap of frequencies with your new back box speakers. These overlapped frequencies are not going to be in sync, they will be out of phase with each other, creating distortion, cancellation and sounding terrible together. This becomes more apparent the higher you turn up the volume, which is why this is only a good solution for more normal volume levels.

    You could go into the EQ and drop out all frequencies above say 500hrtz going to the cabinet speaker to help reduce the amount of overlap.

    So solving the high end is just a little more involved. But is so worth it as there is so much more info to hear in the high range.

    So what to do - In my opinion only, The pin first came alive to me when I replaced the backbox speakers and then replaced the cabinet speaker with an 8" subwoofer mounted inside. All that overlap and misalignment issues stopped - the frequencies that do overlap are closer in alignment to each other given higher quality speakers and both being 4ohms. This solution allowed frequency extension into both the highs and lows - win win..

    By using good quality speaker replacements you are also one step closer to adding amplification to take it all to the next level should you choose to.

    Hope this helps a bit.

    #269 2 years ago

    Another note on speakers.

    This will sum up my thoughts on backbox speakers I've tested one on one so far. I'll be blunt, some will be offended, sorry - don't hate the tester hate the players/speakers.

    In order worst to first:
    Kenwoods - terrible(and too expensive)
    Pyles - terrible(but cheap)
    MBQuart - Decent bass, no highs.
    JBL - Smooth tone, highs could be better

    My favorites tied at 1st:
    Kicker - A bit unnatural tone, a bit bright - really fits the grunge sound and effects of GZ. (flush mountable)
    Alpine - Really great highs, neutral tone.

    For more detail on these ratings go back a few pages and read through the speaker fight writeups.

    Note: this is for the popular models I tested only.

    4" verus 5.25". I'd go 5.25" more often than not. The 5.25" are a little more complicated to mount as it requires adapters or a little custom modification to the plates. However; I would would choose a good 4" flush mount speaker(Like the Kicker CS) over a bad 5.25" speaker all day long.

    #270 2 years ago
    Quoted from Sleal16:

    It came out alright. Need to make adjustments to the openings where it gets bolted to the plate. But least it fits snuggly into the bracket and no air gaps
    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    Good job on the re-design.

    #271 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    Good job on the re-design.

    Thanks! After a couple more tweaks it fits a bit better than that last design. Now need to make some time to solder the molex into the wires the speakers came with. Got an amp that I need to go back and review this thread or other places to see about options on using power from within the machine or run it outside with external power source.

    #272 2 years ago
    Quoted from Sleal16:

    Thanks! After a couple more tweaks it fits a bit better than that last design. Now need to make some time to solder the molex into the wires the speakers came with. Got an amp that I need to go back and review this thread or other places to see about options on using power from within the machine or run it outside with external power source.

    What amp did you go with? Does it have bluetooth?

    #273 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    What amp did you go with? Does it have bluetooth?

    This one

    Fosi Audio BT30D Bluetooth 5.0 Stereo Audio Receiver Amplifier 2.1 Channel Mini Hi-Fi Class D Integrated Amp 50 Watt x2+100 Watt for Home Outdoor Passive Speakers/Subwoofer Powered Subwoofer https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07K7NJ4QN/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_8KP625BBC1BBMABMTDF3

    #274 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    DIY sound upgrades round 3
    I was getting frustrated with the stock woofer muddling up the sound of the new back box speakers. If we don't address this now, I don't think any additional levels of improvements will make any sense. It's like trying to listen to a vocalist do a solo while garbage trucks drive around behind the stage... .[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    it's a bad speaker in a bad place. Is replacing it with a good speaker in a bad place a good idea?

    I doubt it. A mono mid range or full range driver (i think the stock is a full range) facing down is not a good choice or speakers would be designed that way and as DAve said the sound muddies the back box. is some mud cleaner than other mud?

    Replacing with a sub should be better, subs are designed to be mono and downfiring, but subs designed to be downfiring sit an inch above the floor, so just don't think this space is optimal for either. In your choice of sound improvement, ELIMINATING the cabinet speaker should be considered.

    I swapped out the 4 backbox speaker for the kicker 4", i already have a klipse 10 subwoofer, and I just eliminated the cab speaker. I have an awesome, rounded, clearer, sound, way better than stock. i'll play it for a while and then reconnect the cab speaker just to make sure I am correct that it should just be OFF, but for now it's out. If I change my mind and decide that misplaced speaker actually helps, i will put in the skar 8" midrange.

    for now i am quite happy with the kickers and external sub. Not phenomenal, hi fidelity, or 120 decibles, but night and day from the cheap junk stern speakers!

    #275 2 years ago
    Quoted from jid:

    Please report back on how the replacement of the 4” goes with a sub. When I added the sub I thought I’d just leave the stock 4” but if there is a difference I’ll definitely swap them out!

    I put the kickers in and it instantly sounded way better. It lost that harshness of the stock speakers. The kickers are not as efficient as cheapo speakers which is no surprise since you have a magnet 4-5 times as big, so you have to crank the sound up higher.

    I put in the kickers, I already have a 10 external sub, and I disconnected the cabinet speaker. Way better than stock. It's not audiophile, unbelievable, award winning, but I am happy with it. I will try it a while and then hook up the cab speaker to make sure i am correct in thinking it is just a bad speaker in a bad place doing bad things to the sound. if i change my mind i have a skar mid range speaker.

    to install kickers, unscrew the screws, toss stern speakers in trash, install kickers, screw them in, connect wires. no spacers, no drilling, no adapting. kickers come with wire leads. it is one connection.

    NOTE. this is my opinion on my JP. I ordered 2 more sets of speakers for SW and TMNT. Each game is different, Star Wars sounds better to start with than TMNT..........

    #276 2 years ago

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07K9Y9P48/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_GB2V5QYCSMJ779M50VMD

    I've got this one in my meteor and I'm running 6 speakers and a sub off of it and it's got a lot of power.

    #277 2 years ago
    Quoted from Sleal16:

    This one
    Fosi Audio BT30D Bluetooth 5.0 Stereo Audio Receiver Amplifier 2.1 Channel Mini Hi-Fi Class D Integrated Amp 50 Watt x2+100 Watt for Home Outdoor Passive Speakers/Subwoofer Powered Subwoofer amazon.com link »

    Nice - I have one here I'm getting ready to put in and compare to the Dayton.

    You may want to slow down on connecting the power to internals of the cabinet. I complelty understand the one button turns it all on thing. BUT - there is a huge bennifit I missed when first thinking about this.

    At first I thought nothing of the Bluetooth feature - just kind of a waste. But holy cow it's actually awesome! Probably the killer feature when you have good backbox speakers, and a good sub in it. It will easily out perform any Bluetooth speaker and should sound as good if not better than any $300-$500 bookshelf system. At first I thought it was a novelty use thing. But I use it all the time now to listen to music or podcast while tooling around the house.

    By keeping it 2 button operation, you can just walk by and turn the amp power on and start streaming without having to turn the pin on.

    20220302_095553 (resized).jpg20220302_095553 (resized).jpg
    #278 2 years ago

    Dave, can you show how your pulling the pin audio to the amp please.

    #279 2 years ago

    I’m running the cs4 and jbl 810 combo in my Godzilla per this thead. I’m very pleased. Thank you

    #280 2 years ago
    Quoted from shovelhed:

    Dave, can you show how your pulling the pin audio to the amp please.

    Sure thing -

    Starts with a pinsound adapter that plugs into the CN5 connector on the main board. Then I plug a 3.5mm male to male cable into the L+R plug on the pinsound adapter. The other end of the 3.5 goes straight into the Dayton amp. The Fosi amp will require a splitter at the amp. A female 3.5mm to L+R RCA as the Fosi only takes RCA input style.

    Let me know if you want any specific pictures, or any questions.

    #281 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    Nice - I have one here I'm getting ready to put in and compare to the Dayton.
    You may want to slow down on connecting the power to internals of the cabinet. I complelty understand the one button turns it all on thing. BUT - there is a huge bennifit I missed when first thinking about this.
    At first I thought nothing of the Bluetooth feature - just kind of a waste. But holy cow it's actually awesome! Probably the killer feature when you have good backbox speakers, and a good sub in it. It will easily out perform any Bluetooth speaker and should sound as good if not better than any $300-$500 bookshelf system. At first I thought it was a novelty use thing. But I use it all the time now to listen to music or podcast while tooling around the house.
    By keeping it 2 button operation, you can just walk by and turn the amp power on and start streaming without having to turn the pin on.[quoted image]

    Going point on having it as a boombox type setup outside of the game. Got the speakers up and running as-is as a replacement to the stock earlier in the day. When I get home tomorrow I'll mess with adding the amp and the cabinet speaker. Speakers on their own was a nice bump in oomf, but yeah, still need to mess with the cab one to see how much better IMDN will sound

    #282 2 years ago
    Quoted from SlapDrain:

    I’m running the cs4 and jbl 810 combo in my Godzilla per this thead. I’m very pleased. Thank you

    Very nice - now you can stop here and have great results. Or jump to the next level by adding an amp at any time.

    @Steal16

    You IMDN will rock. You will be very pleased with the results.

    #283 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    Very nice - now you can stop here and have great results. Or jump to the next level by adding an amp at any time.
    @Steal16
    You IMDN will rock. You will be very pleased with the results.

    I like the idea of a Bluetooth speaker with the game off using that amp you showed. For now I’m enjoying but that may be the next step. Any idea what size toe clamps I need to hold down the 810? I just have it placed on the studs with no screws right now and it seems fine but the toe clamps would be good if I ever put the pin on it’s back to move it.

    #284 2 years ago

    davegauth Thank You and others here for all your efforts and input on this awesome thread... it's much appreciated!

    I'm a believer in one of the best mods for pinball is improved speakers / sound quality. However, I'm a guy who doesn't like anything under my pins (i.e. external subs).

    I've bought many of the off the shelf, ready made, speaker improvement kits for WPC's & System 11's. But I still feel there are improvement and cost savings going the DIY route.

    I can't wait for the conclusion of the "Best Bang for the Buck" speakers & amp/equalization configurations.

    BTW: I know this topic is subject to taste, like fine wine is to the palate of individual mouths.

    Thanks again!
    Kerry

    #285 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    A quick note/recap of my impressions on speakers swaps.
    Stock speakers - the backbox and cabinet speakers are cheap ful range speakers. Both run at 8ohms. Both appear to be of same brand and type.

    Forgive my obtuse question:

    Reviewing the JP Pro Manual, it states that the cabinet is a 8", 4 ohm speaker. Silly manual states "speaker" for the backbox, no ohm rating unfortunately. So i opened the backbox, and yep, sure enough, 8 ohms printed right on one of them. That seems SO "wtf???" - why would Stern mix ohm ratings on speakers installs?

    I am planning to install 5.25" 4 ohm speakers (the Kicker equivs of the 4" ones) and a Skar 8", 4 ohm cabinet speaker. I would think ohms matching would lead to better quality - mainly the speakers not fighting each other at different impedances.

    Thoughts? I value your feedback as I am installing (2) Boss AVA1404 amps (no longer available, used to install these in my Sterns - learned how to do this from @metallik), and I want to make sure I do this right. Back then, I always used matching ohm values for both backbox and cabinet speakers, but maybe Stern did something unique to where 4 ohm cabinet and 8 ohm backbox speakers are necessary...? Can't imagine how that would make sense...

    #286 2 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Forgive my obtuse question:
    Reviewing the JP Pro Manual, it states that the cabinet is a 8", 4 ohm speaker. Silly manual states "speaker" for the backbox, no ohm rating unfortunately. So i opened the backbox, and yep, sure enough, 8 ohms printed right on one of them. That seems SO "wtf???" - why would Stern mix ohm ratings on speakers installs?
    I am planning to install 5.25" 4 ohm speakers (the Kicker equivs of the 4" ones) and a Skar 8", 4 ohm cabinet speaker. I would think ohms matching would lead to better quality - mainly the speakers not fighting each other at different impedances.
    Thoughts? I value your feedback as I am installing (2) Boss AVA1404 amps (no longer available, used to install these in my Sterns - learned how to do this from metallik), and I want to make sure I do this right. Back then, I always used matching ohm values for both backbox and cabinet speakers, but maybe Stern did something unique to where 4 ohm cabinet and 8 ohm backbox speakers are necessary...? Can't imagine how that would make sense...

    You gotta remember that on SPIKE there is no crossover. It is a true 2.1 output with separate amp for the cabinet and backbox speakers. There are also separate equalizers and ohms setting in the SPIKE menus. Nothing will be fighting...

    #287 2 years ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    You gotta remember that on SPIKE there is no crossover. It is a true 2.1 output with separate amp for the cabinet and backbox speakers. There are also separate equalizers and ohms setting in the SPIKE menus. Nothing will be fighting...

    You're right. I forgot about that - I'm used to doing the speaker/amplifier upgrade on the Whitestar games (ACDC, Metallica, Iron Man, etc.)

    I also noticed the Spike games have an internal equalize on the display. The Boss AVA1404s are amplified equalizers. Seems like I'd be doing overkill with the 1404s, and that maybe I should explore amp-only options as mentioned in this thread....

    Right track? Wrong track?

    #288 2 years ago
    Quoted from SlapDrain:

    I like the idea of a Bluetooth speaker with the game off using that amp you showed. For now I’m enjoying but that may be the next step. Any idea what size toe clamps I need to hold down the 810? I just have it placed on the studs with no screws right now and it seems fine but the toe clamps would be good if I ever put the pin on it’s back to move it.

    It'll be a good idea to bolt it down, it'll rattle a little with it just sitting in the studs.

    No toe clamps needed. I just removed the stock studs. (Tap them out with a hammer, and wiggle them out from the bottom) Then pick up some #8 wood screws from the hardware store and some #8 washers. Screw down the speaker from the inside using the sane holes the studs were in. Take the ground strap and pull it up and between the speaker and washer when putting that upper right screw in. You can scrape away some paint on the sub for a better safety ground if you want.

    #289 2 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Forgive my obtuse question:
    Reviewing the JP Pro Manual, it states that the cabinet is a 8", 4 ohm speaker. Silly manual states "speaker" for the backbox, no ohm rating unfortunately. So i opened the backbox, and yep, sure enough, 8 ohms printed right on one of them. That seems SO "wtf???" - why would Stern mix ohm ratings on speakers installs?
    I am planning to install 5.25" 4 ohm speakers (the Kicker equivs of the 4" ones) and a Skar 8", 4 ohm cabinet speaker. I would think ohms matching would lead to better quality - mainly the speakers not fighting each other at different impedances.
    Thoughts? I value your feedback as I am installing (2) Boss AVA1404 amps (no longer available, used to install these in my Sterns - learned how to do this from metallik), and I want to make sure I do this right. Back then, I always used matching ohm values for both backbox and cabinet speakers, but maybe Stern did something unique to where 4 ohm cabinet and 8 ohm backbox speakers are necessary...? Can't imagine how that would make sense...

    Yes you will have fighting.

    Just not in the sense you are thinking.

    2 big things happen when using missmatched ohms.:
    (note: this doesn't necessarily apply to the stock Stern speakers as they are mismatched but function decent together for what they are, and have a few things going on in the DSP to help. Stern still sets the DSP of the cabinet speaker to 8ohm - and what that setting is really doing is still kind of a mystery)

    It becomes difficult to match the volume levels of the different speakers. 4ohm speakers allow the amps to push more power to them than an 8ohm. speaker on the same amp. 4ohm backbox speakers will play louder than you 8ohm cabinet speaker. (even though the 1 amp is bridged) It will be difficult using the internal DSP settings to get it to match. I mean you will achieve balance at 1 volume level, but as you change volume you will be chasing it again. It will not stay consistent throughout the volume range.

    Second is speaker alignment. Where you have frequency overlap it becomes important to have your speakers in alignment with each other. Which means the need to produce the overlapped soundwaves at the exact same time. Any delay between the two speakers means the sound waves become out of phase with each other. Think of one speaker playing a bass note, then a fraction of a second later the next speaker fires off the exact same bass note. It's kind of like an echo, only it won't sound like one. Being out of alignment can happen for so many reasons accross the entire frequency range. Misalignment will produce distortion, muddle, cancellation, boominess etc.

    This is one of the reasons just changing the backbox speakers only, will provide some sound quality improvements but has its limitations. And why I was having so much trouble with this until the cabinet speaker was replaced.

    Can mismatched speakers work at all then? Well yes, the stock speaker ohm mismatch does work, kinda, on its own level. But it all comes undone with quality aftermarket speakers.

    Car audio uses missmatched speakers all the time, they are also running seperate amps with different power outputs etc, speakers are in many different locations etc. But this isn't your 1982 Datsun with Jenson receiver and Audiovox 10 band EQ/booster that has been drywall screwed under your dash. These systems have evolved significantly and many now rely on DSP calibrations to bring everything into alignment.

    Do I think we need to be going to this level on a pinball machine? God no! But if we pay attention to the basics, we can get a really good sounding system at the DIY level that will be cheaper than, and significantly better sounding, than aftermarket solutions being sold today.

    Man - there has to be something better for me to do on a Sunday morning..... Time to get out of the house....

    #290 2 years ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    Yes you will have fighting.
    Just not in the sense you are thinking.
    2 big things happen when using missmatched ohms.:
    (note: this doesn't necessarily apply to the stock Stern speakers as they are mismatched but function decent together for what they are, and have a few things going on in the DSP to help. Stern still sets the DSP of the cabinet speaker to 8ohm - and what that setting is really doing is still kind of a mystery)
    It becomes difficult to match the volume levels of the different speakers. 4ohm speakers allow the amps to push more power to them than an 8ohm. speaker on the same amp. 4ohm backbox speakers will play louder than you 8ohm cabinet speaker. (even though the 1 amp is bridged) It will be difficult using the internal DSP settings to get it to match. I mean you will achieve balance at 1 volume level, but as you change volume you will be chasing it again. It will not stay consistent throughout the volume range.
    Second is speaker alignment. Where you have frequency overlap it becomes important to have your speakers in alignment with each other. Which means the need to produce the overlapped soundwaves at the exact same time. Any delay between the two speakers means the sound waves become out of phase with each other. Think of one speaker playing a bass note, then a fraction of a second later the next speaker fires off the exact same bass note. It's kind of like an echo, only it won't sound like one. Being out of alignment can happen for so many reasons accross the entire frequency range. Misalignment will produce distortion, muddle, cancellation, boominess etc.
    This is one of the reasons just changing the backbox speakers only, will provide some sound quality improvements but has its limitations. And why I was having so much trouble with this until the cabinet speaker got replaced.
    The stock speaker ohm mismatch does work, kinda, on its own level. But it all comes undone with quality aftermarket speakers.

    So appreciate your feedback and insights. So what I am hearing, matching the ohms with both.

    FYSA (situational awareness), these are the units I am ordeirng:

    KICKER CS Series CSC5's: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NSCZ27W/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1
    (I have the adapters from Space Coast Pinballs on the way)

    Skar Audio FSX8-4 8": https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NMJTEC6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2

    The PSW10 external sub underneath the game is plenty of boom. I want the cabinet to bring out more the midranges, hence, well, the "midrange" in the title of the product.

    Then, I'll go installing the 1404 amps - one for the backbox 5.25" speakers, and the other for the cabinet speaker and external sub.

    Thank you for making this thread. As stated earlier, I learned from Metallik how to do this, and I love reading about other people's DIY projects and the knowledge insights many of you have that I am learning and absorbing.

    #291 2 years ago

    Just a note that both of my NIB Stern's games so far (Deadpool Pro & AIQ premium, waiting on Godzilla Premium...) both had only 4 ohm speakers from the factory.

    To me - using the 8 ohm setting on a 4 ohm cabinet speaker acts like the "loud" function of a car stereo. Boosts bass output at lower volume levels. It's very rare I go above 16 volume setting on my pins.

    I do run external subs and originally replaced my cab speaker with subs, but then tried the 8" Skar full range about a year ago and liked it better than just a sub since I do have the external sub. I am running Pyle backbox speakers which to me sound much better than stock, but I may try a set of the Kickers or Alpines.

    I am about to do some testing this week with my external subs to see what difference it makes to use either speaker level inputs as I do now (tap off cab speaker) or use Pinsound adapter and run RCA to the external sub. I do have one sub that I share between 2 pins, (one uses left input, the other right) so I will also see if using only one side reduces sub output as I think it does.

    #292 2 years ago

    So i want to make quick snap on/off harnesses for the speakers. I can just wire them directly to the amp, but for some reason I am a stickler for shifting things around if I want to later. I cant tell what kind of 4-pin molex the 2 speakers in the backbox join into before heading into the board and curious if someone might know what model adapter that might be?

    #293 2 years ago

    Just picked up this speaker for $23 on amazon warehouse deals. We'll see how it runs for me!

    https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B000V1RLM8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00

    And this input/output amp on aliexpress. I like the bare wire input on this amp. I can just use the wiring and not have to make or terminate ends.

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32840784342.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.21ef1802y1RoRj

    #294 2 years ago
    Quoted from Sleal16:

    So i want to make quick snap on/off harnesses for the speakers. I can just wire them directly to the amp, but for some reason I am a stickler for shifting things around if I want to later. I cant tell what kind of 4-pin molex the 2 speakers in the backbox join into before heading into the board and curious if someone might know what model adapter that might be?

    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/03-06-1044?qs=th8CuLdcYnn3SuU5k7nxNQ%3D%3D

    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/02-06-1103?qs=359VwiUTsp0rVi3UDduwvw%3D%3D

    I mentioned this in my post on improving Rush LE audio here:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-rush-owners-club-1/page/37#post-6808277

    Just to be clear - the above are if you want to create the cable from the speakers to an amplifier. Should be simple to figure out the opposite gender version from the spec sheets listed above.

    #295 2 years ago
    Quoted from TinyBlackDog:

    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/03-06-1044?qs=th8CuLdcYnn3SuU5k7nxNQ%3D%3D
    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/02-06-1103?qs=359VwiUTsp0rVi3UDduwvw%3D%3D
    I mentioned this in my post on improving Rush LE audio here:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-rush-owners-club-1/page/37#post-6808277
    Just to be clear - the above are if you want to create the cable from the speakers to an amplifier. Should be simple to figure out the opposite gender version from the spec sheets listed above.

    Perfect! thanks! sucks the crimp socket things are out of stock, but I'm sure I can find those available elsewhere

    #296 2 years ago

    Just to pop in with a note. The SPIKE 1 (DMD) and SPIKE 2 (LCD) audio setup is definitely different. CN5 on the SPIKE 2 is a nice way to get audio out with or without disconnecting the speakers from CN1 and CN4. On the SPIKE 1, I don't see a connector similar to the CN5, but there is a direct headphone out port on the board. FYI the schematics are all here:

    https://sternpinball.com/support/

    SPIKE 1: https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/520-6936-01B-CPU-SPIKE-1-.pdf

    SPIKE 2: https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/520-7031-01E-SPIKE-2-CARRIER-universal.pdf

    #297 2 years ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    Just to pop in with a note. The SPIKE 1 (DMD) and SPIKE 2 (LCD) audio setup is definitely different. CN5 on the SPIKE 2 is a nice way to get audio out with or without disconnecting the speakers from CN1 and CN4. On the SPIKE 1, I don't see a connector similar to the CN5, but there is a direct headphone out port on the board. FYI the schematics are all here:
    https://sternpinball.com/support/
    SPIKE 1: https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/520-6936-01B-CPU-SPIKE-1-.pdf
    SPIKE 2: https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/520-7031-01E-SPIKE-2-CARRIER-universal.pdf

    Double ended headphone cord would be easy to connect to a small simple amp. then wire the "outs" accordingly!

    #298 2 years ago

    This is a little OT, so forgive me… I’ve been following this thread. I was previously playing around with the EQ settings on my GOTG Pro. Then I wanted to start fresh so I reset the audio to factory default. Now I can’t find the EQ again. Did it disappear or am I missing it somewhere? Can someone point me to exactly where it should be menu?

    #299 2 years ago

    In the Volume settings, after the impedance setting is the 7th option, "Audio Filter". Default is High/Low shelf. You need to change that to 10-band EQ and then the EQ menu options will appear.

    #300 2 years ago

    I've been following this thread with interest and thinking about swapping the speakers in GZ LE for the Kicker 5.25. However I'm unsure regarding the mounting. Is it necessary to 3D print something to mount them on or is there another way? ( I don't have a 3D printer). Thanks.

    There are 1,828 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 37.

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