(Topic ID: 307852)

Improving Sound Quality - The DIY Route

By davegauth

2 years ago


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    There are 1,828 posts in this topic. You are on page 22 of 37.
    #1051 1 year ago
    Quoted from pete_d:

    Frankly, I found this modification much more gratifying than the larger speakers. The 5.25" speakers definitely improved the sound, and it also gives me the same volume and better detail to the sound at lower volume settings. But the subwoofer was easier and added a lot more dimension to the sound. I've seen posts from people asking about adding a shaker motor. Having seen what the subwoofer does, I think a shaker motor would be pointless. In addition to the benefit to the music, the machine has lots of sound effects with plenty of bass, and the subwoofer gives you a deep shake on those that I think a motor never could.

    Certainly if I were choosing between the two, I'd definitely go subwoofer first. I guess if after that a person still wanted to add the shaker motor, I wouldn't fault them for that, but I'm sure that for me personally, I don't need it.

    As much as I love upgrading the sound systems and adding external subwoofers to my machines, Shakers are on a whole other level of feedback integration that is different than the bass and I highly recommend them!

    #1052 1 year ago
    Quoted from awesome1:

    As much as I love upgrading the sound systems and adding external subwoofers to my machines, Shakers are on a whole other level of feedback integration that is different than the bass and I highly recommend them!

    To each their own. I've played a number of machines with shakers, and so far only two have made sense to me: Earthshaker, and Godzilla.

    But hey, if that's what rocks your boat, go for it!

    #1053 1 year ago

    Shakers shake my boat.... bad a## sound systems rock my boat.... Put the two of them together and everyone wants to party on my boat...

    I'd still put a shaker in every single game regardless of how bad a## the sound system is. The tactile feedbacks are very different from each other, sometimes they sync and others they do not. Playing at lower volumes? you'll still feel the shaker....

    When my boats rock'n don't come kn..... ahh nevermind.... All Aboard.......

    #1054 1 year ago

    So, for those that have (or will) use an active sub....
    Anyone going with a 12v car audio product?
    If so, how are you powering it? independently with a 12v adapter or from the pinball somehow (spike 2)?

    #1055 1 year ago
    Quoted from arrbee:

    So, for those that have (or will) use an active sub....
    Anyone going with a 12v car audio product?
    If so, how are you powering it? independently with a 12v adapter or from the pinball somehow (spike 2)?

    Active sub, but external and powered by mains outlet.

    Phase three of my upgrade plan hasn't been executed yet, but I plan to add a switched outlet inside the cabinet for a powered amp to run the cabinet speakers. I'll do this by adding "piggyback" quick-connect connectors to the switched side of the power switch to tap the mains power there, with those attached to the receptacle end of a power cord, so I can plug a regular power supply adapter for the amp in there.

    I have seen posts about how to take 12V from the pin itself, either from the power supply or the motherboard, but either of those -- especially the motherboard, but also the power supply -- make me worry about exceeding the designed spec of the power in the pin. Theoretically there should be headroom to accommodate an amp, but the amp can draw a fair amount of power, and the pin manufacturer has incentive to provision their power supply components only for what the pin itself needs. I figure better safe than sorry.

    #1056 1 year ago
    Quoted from pete_d:

    Active sub, but external and powered by mains outlet.
    Phase three of my upgrade plan hasn't been executed yet, but I plan to add a switched outlet inside the cabinet for a powered amp to run the cabinet speakers. I'll do this by adding "piggyback" quick-connect connectors to the switched side of the power switch to tap the mains power there, with those attached to the receptacle end of a power cord, so I can plug a regular power supply adapter for the amp in there.
    I have seen posts about how to take 12V from the pin itself, either from the power supply or the motherboard, but either of those -- especially the motherboard, but also the power supply -- make me worry about exceeding the designed spec of the power in the pin. Theoretically there should be headroom to accommodate an amp, but the amp can draw a fair amount of power, and the pin manufacturer has incentive to provision their power supply components only for what the pin itself needs. I figure better safe than sorry.

    Since my pins are all powered through smart plugs (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B091FXLMS8) I just plug the amp's DC power supply into the service outlet.

    1 week later
    #1057 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    Really well done! I want to add LEDs around the speaker frame so may look into remixing this. Super clean design

    Quick update:

    First, my original version of the 3D-printable speaker mounting plate, to upgrade from the 4" to 5.25" speakers, had a minor problem. The speaker was centered relative to the mounting plate, but it turns out that's not centered relative to the honeycomb grill in the pin's speaker plate. I have fixed this, so that the speaker is correctly centered relative to the grill.

    Second, the design now includes an option that can be printed in two parts. After puzzling over it a little, I realized that the ring that fits against the speaker doesn't need to retain the speaker; that's what the mounting bosses with the screws are for. Instead, the speaker can hold the ring in place, with the ring just acting as a spacer between the mounting plate and the speaker.

    So now it's super easy to print that ring in a transparent/translucent filament to act as a diffuser for LED lights. Puzzle solved!

    Same download pages as before: https://www.printables.com/model/313814-mounting-plate-for-525-speakers-in-stern-pinball-m and https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5618745

    5.25" speaker mounting plate5.25" speaker mounting plate
    speaker with lit ringspeaker with lit ring

    #1058 1 year ago

    Installed kicker 5.25" , jbl 8", pinsound connector and fosi bt30d. The sound is great but I was wondering if anyone else is getting loud feedback at boot up after doing the amp install. It quiets down after booting up. I tried a ground loop isolator but it made the sound worse. For the amp power source I cut the plug head off and connected to the relay power switch in back box using piggyback connectors. One switch turn on as mentioned by original poster Dave G. I am wondering if this is a grounding issue or possibly a power source issue. I would like to try to get power from a different plug to see if it fixes this but would have to rig a plug head back in to try it out.

    20221123_201425 (resized).jpg20221123_201425 (resized).jpg
    #1059 1 year ago

    Fyi the amp had to be moved back a bit after taking that photo as it interfered with the plunger.

    #1060 1 year ago
    Quoted from Dizromo:

    Installed kicker 5.25" , jbl 8", pinsound connector and fosi bt30d. The sound is great but I was wondering if anyone else is getting loud feedback at boot up after doing the amp install. It quiets down after booting up. I tried a ground loop isolator but it made the sound worse. For the amp power source I cut the plug head off and connected to the relay power switch in back box using piggyback connectors. One switch turn on as mentioned by original poster Dave G. I am wondering if this is a grounding issue or possibly a power source issue. I would like to try to get power from a different plug to see if it fixes this but would have to rig a plug head back in to try it out.
    [quoted image]

    Is it possible that as part of the boot sequence, the shaker motor is energized in some way, and that's causing some kind of EM interference that the amp is picking up?

    Personally, whether there's interference like that or not, I would have put the amp as far from the shaker motor as possible, and definitely not right on top of it. Seems like that location is just asking for trouble, risking solder joints and other connections being loosed by the vibration.

    Maybe it's a complete non-issue, but I wouldn't take the chance.

    #1061 1 year ago
    Quoted from pete_d:Is it possible that as part of the boot sequence, the shaker motor is energized in some way, and that's causing some kind of EM interference that the amp is picking up?
    Personally, whether there's interference like that or not, I would have put the amp as far from the shaker motor as possible, and definitely not right on top of it. Seems like that location is just asking for trouble, risking solder joints and other connections being loosed by the vibration.
    Maybe it's a complete non-issue, but I wouldn't take the chance.

    I relocated the amp back about a foot to clear everything. It's floating on thick velcro that does a good job absorbing vibrations. I wanted it somewhat close to the door to do adjustments on the fly if need. Might not really be needed so close once properly tuned.

    #1062 1 year ago
    Quoted from Dizromo:

    I relocated the amp back about a foot to clear everything. It's floating on thick velcro that does a good job absorbing vibrations. I wanted it somewhat close to the door to do adjustments on the fly if need. Might not really be needed so close once properly tuned.

    I like where you mounted the amp (vs placing it where the coin box goes). Any risk of thermal issues with it being sideways? Also, did moving it resolve the issue you were having on boot up?
    I’m considering the same amp or possibly the BT30 Pro for a few extra $.

    #1063 1 year ago

    Quick pictures of a DIY speaker plate adapter I designed for my Pyle subwoofer, to add clearance and to adjust the screws (which are too short for the new sub). I'm using M3 screws which are fitted from the bottom (there is an opening to fit the screw head). There's also clearance around each nut of the original screws to allow to fit the toolhead (otherwise you can't screw the nut)

    It's really a straight design, nothing fancy, if there's an interest I can post it

    20221127_164053 (resized).jpg20221127_164053 (resized).jpg20221127_165701 (resized).jpg20221127_165701 (resized).jpg
    #1064 1 year ago
    Quoted from Ashram56:

    Quick pictures of a DIY speaker plate adapter I designed for my Pyle subwoofer, to add clearance and to adjust the screws (which are too short for the new sub). I'm using M3 screws which are fitted from the bottom (there is an opening to fit the screw head). There's also clearance around each nut of the original screws to allow to fit the toolhead (otherwise you can't screw the nut)
    It's really a straight design, nothing fancy, if there's an interest I can post it
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    Awesome Work Ashram56 !!

    #1065 1 year ago
    Quoted from Ashram56:

    Quick pictures of a DIY speaker plate adapter I designed for my Pyle subwoofer, to add clearance and to adjust the screws (which are too short for the new sub). I'm using M3 screws which are fitted from the bottom (there is an opening to fit the screw head). There's also clearance around each nut of the original screws to allow to fit the toolhead (otherwise you can't screw the nut)
    It's really a straight design, nothing fancy, if there's an interest I can post it
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    Just FYI you can get enough clearance by removing the screen material, tapping out the studs, moving the screen to the outside of the cabinet before tapping the studs back into place. Then the sub can be secured in place with the existing studs. No extra parts needed and plenty of clearance for the cone to travel. Your adapter does look nice though.

    FE189A08-9F3B-4E9F-AE65-BA086F278420 (resized).jpegFE189A08-9F3B-4E9F-AE65-BA086F278420 (resized).jpeg

    #1066 1 year ago
    Quoted from bigguybbr:

    Just FYI you can get enough clearance by removing the screen material, tapping out the studs, moving the screen to the outside of the cabinet before tapping the studs back into place. Then the sub can be secured in place with the existing studs. No extra parts needed and plenty of clearance for the cone to travel. Your adapter does look nice though.
    [quoted image]

    Is that right? I had not realized the grid added so much thickness

    #1067 1 year ago
    Quoted from Ashram56:

    Is that right? I had not realized the grid added so much thickness

    The screen doesn't. But the cabinet plywood does. Note the critical step in the process you quoted: "moving the screen to the outside of the cabinet before tapping the studs back into place".

    The screen is normally inside the cabinet. Moving it to the outside gives the extra depth of the wood for clearance, for speakers that have something that protrudes beyond the plane of the mounting hardware.

    #1068 1 year ago
    Quoted from pete_d:

    The screen doesn't. But the cabinet plywood does. Note the critical step in the process you quoted: "moving the screen to the outside of the cabinet before tapping the studs back into place".
    The screen is normally inside the cabinet. Moving it to the outside gives the extra depth of the wood for clearance, for speakers that have something that protrudes beyond the plane of the mounting hardware.

    Ah got it, I was not referring to this point.

    In my case the studs are waaayyyyy too short, so I would need to replace them to be able to fit the Pyle speaker. Hence the adapter, because it was faster for me to design and print than order just 4 screws

    #1069 1 year ago
    Quoted from Ashram56:

    Ah got it, I was not referring to this point.
    In my case the studs are waaayyyyy too short, so I would need to replace them to be able to fit the Pyle speaker. Hence the adapter, because it was faster for me to design and print than order just 4 screws

    I was able to use this method on a home pin, and on my DP pro. The foam gasket on the speaker basket compresses, so you can get it to thread if you push a little. Worked for me at least

    #1070 1 year ago

    On another note, this time for Stern SAM: there is no real line out on SAM CPU board, so I essentially see two options:

    - Solder headers on the two test points for audio on the CPU board. These are well documented, but it's not really practical because ground is nowhere close, so from the wiring perspective it would look ugly. But benefit would be clean line out just before the amp section
    - Use an amplified-to-line converter. I tried to look up schematics and principle diagram, it seems to be a super simple 10 to 1 divider circuit. Is there any quality impact ?

    Also trying to understand stereo vs mono, based on the schematics, one channel is driven to backbox, one channel is driven to cabinet for sub. But the filtering seems completely identical on the schematics. Taking a look at alternate replacement speaker, I can see they add a big low pass filter to the sub.

    My assumption therefore is that the output is actually stereo, and filtering is done on the speakers themselves. So in theory, I could add a speaker-to-line adapter, add a 2.1 amplifier and feed natively from there backbox and cabinet speaker. Of course, source material is probably mono anyway, but at least wiring wise that would be relatively straightforward.

    Thoughts ?

    #1071 1 year ago

    Does anyone know the name/part number of the 2 conductor connector Spike 2 uses for the speakers? It looks like a .093 molex, but it’s different than the ones I have in my parts bin, and has a locking tab.

    #1072 1 year ago

    thanks OP (and everyone) for the awesome info in this thread. I bought kicker CSC5's for my godzilla LE based on the info. I didnt seem to need any bracket to mount the new speakers- is that right? I thought I'd need them....

    Also wondering if there are any recommended settings for GZ (4ohm vs 8ohm? eq settings?).

    I searched the thread but couldn't find anything specific but might have missed it....

    #1073 1 year ago
    Quoted from dmj1977:

    thanks OP (and everyone) for the awesome info in this thread. I bought kicker CSC5's for my godzilla LE based on the info. I didnt seem to need any bracket to mount the new speakers- is that right? I thought I'd need them....
    Also wondering if there are any recommended settings for GZ (4ohm vs 8ohm? eq settings?).
    I searched the thread but couldn't find anything specific but might have missed it....

    The LE's already have 5-1/4" speakers from the factory, no new brackets required. The Pro/Pre have a 4" speaker (and speaker plate) from the factory, hence the new bracket is required to fit a 5.25 speaker.

    #1074 1 year ago
    Quoted from Pinash:

    Does anyone know the name/part number of the 2 conductor connector Spike 2 uses for the speakers? It looks like a .093 molex, but it’s different than the ones I have in my parts bin, and has a locking tab.

    You're asking about the connector at the speaker-end of the cable? That's Molex part #39012025 (https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/molex/0039012025/930271) for the housing, part #39000073 (https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/molex/0039000073/3044236) for the gold-plated version of the connector.

    #1075 1 year ago
    Quoted from dmj1977:

    thanks OP (and everyone) for the awesome info in this thread. I bought kicker CSC5's for my godzilla LE based on the info. I didnt seem to need any bracket to mount the new speakers- is that right? I thought I'd need them....
    Also wondering if there are any recommended settings for GZ (4ohm vs 8ohm? eq settings?).
    I searched the thread but couldn't find anything specific but might have missed it....

    Set to 8ohms, and try these settings for EQ as a starting point:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/improving-sound-quality-the-diy-route/page/2#post-6716867

    #1076 1 year ago

    Just picked up a Godzilla Pro Tuesday. Had some Rockford Fosgate 5.25 speaker to put in backbox and a JBL subwoofer for cabinet. Will add amplifier and upgrade speaker wire next week. Gotta get some games in. I was in such a hurry after updating code and installing speakers today that I put the translite in “The Land Down Under” style. Didn't notice until I was on ball 3.

    PXL_20221201_160819938 (resized).jpgPXL_20221201_160819938 (resized).jpgPXL_20221201_181848500 (resized).jpgPXL_20221201_181848500 (resized).jpg
    #1077 1 year ago
    Quoted from Pinash:

    The LE's already have 5-1/4" speakers from the factory, no new brackets required. The Pro/Pre have a 4" speaker (and speaker plate) from the factory, hence the new bracket is required to fit a 5.25 speaker.

    thanks both - exactly what i needed to know.

    (also going to transfer the old cab speaker from my GnR CE which i figure surely must be better than the one currently in my GZLE)

    #1078 1 year ago

    Hoping to get some general advice. Pictured is the sub in my GZLE and the sub I took out of my GNR CE. Am I right right the GNR one (pyramid) is better?

    7F652F9B-6B64-46F4-8871-DCC362FBD847 (resized).jpeg7F652F9B-6B64-46F4-8871-DCC362FBD847 (resized).jpeg946B515C-1F7B-4A19-95D3-79E6AC450CE9 (resized).jpeg946B515C-1F7B-4A19-95D3-79E6AC450CE9 (resized).jpeg
    #1079 1 year ago
    Quoted from dmj1977:

    Am I right right the GNR one (pyramid) is better?

    "Better" how? 300W seems like overkill in terms of raw power handling for a pin. I doubt either of those woofers are all that great, so probably best to just listen to them both and pick the one you like.

    If you can be more specific about what parameters you want "better" to be judged on, maybe you'd get a more useful reply.

    #1080 1 year ago

    Hmm ok - honestly not 100% sure. My knowledge of sound gear is somewhat limited but I know when I bought the pinwoofer kit for my gnr it sounded a lot better. I guess for Godzilla I’d like more clarity but I assume the backbox speakers mainly do that. For the cab speaker I guess a greater range in bass - similar to buying a better sub for a home theatre system….

    #1081 1 year ago

    I'm happy

    PXL_20221203_111111539 (resized).jpgPXL_20221203_111111539 (resized).jpgPXL_20221203_120706315 (resized).jpgPXL_20221203_120706315 (resized).jpg
    #1082 1 year ago

    We're the happiest.

    #1083 1 year ago

    Hey guys,
    I’m putting the 5 1/4” Kenwoods in both my GZ Prem & JP Prem. What should I set the eq to in settings? Is there a standard setup when you upgrade?
    Also, does it make sense to do a spacer for 5 1/4’s like on the subs?

    #1084 1 year ago
    Quoted from qbass187:

    Hey guys,
    I’m putting the 5 1/4” Kenwoods in both my GZ Prem & JP Prem. What should I set the eq to in settings? Is there a standard setup when you upgrade?

    It depends on what you like. But personally, I found that when I put in 4 ohm Alpine speakers in my Rush Premium, I got the best results from just leaving the speaker ohm setting at 8 ohms (4 ohms cut the volume drastically, to the point of being intolerably quiet), and disabling the EQ altogether.

    I played around some with the EQ before doing this, trying different combinations of levels. But nothing wound up sounding better to me than just a flat curve.

    I did tweak the balance between the cabinet ("sub") and backbox speakers, and I don't recall exactly what balance I used, but it should be easy for you to find a level for that you like, and the odds of my personal preference on my Rush winding up being exactly the right setting for you on your GZ or JP seem slim.

    Also, does it make sense to do a spacer for 5 1/4’s like on the subs?

    AFAIK spacers are there for clearance only. The way the Alpines I bought mount, the metal housing of the speaker is behind the front of the speaker, so you'd need a spacer one way or the other for that. The Alpines also have a tweeter dome that protrudes from the front of the speaker. I made a 3D-printed mounting plate rather than buy the metal ones, and since I was doing that work anyway, I just made sure it mounted the speaker far enough back from the front plane that the tweeter didn't bump anything. But some spacing would've had to be built in regardless.

    I'm not familiar with the Kenwoods, but assuming the 5-1/4" car audio speakers follow a standard configuration, you'd need a similar spacer for those. There are 3D-printable designs on Thingiverse if you are using the metal plate and just need the spacer, or you can just use the design I made, which combines the mounting plate and spacing needs all in a single part.

    I looked at the Kenwood KFC-1366 speaker product page, and it documents a mounting depth and mounting height of 1-1/4" and 5/16", respectively. But I don't know enough about car audio to know what those measurements refer to. The mounting plate I made for the Alpines, there's a 14 mm (about 9/16") distance between the back surface of the mounting plate and the surface of the speaker's gasket. The mounting bosses, where the tabs on the speaker's metal frame rest, are 17.5 mm (11/16") from the back of the mounting plate.

    What that means with respect to the Kenwoods, I don't know. Assuming they still have a 3.5 mm (1/8") difference between the surface of any gasket built into the speaker and the speaker's mounting tabs, then the mounting plate I made would work fine. The other mounting spacers I've seen, they don't seem to mate to the speaker's gasket anyway, so those probably would work too. In either case, the speaker might be set back a little further than it really would need to be, but that seems like less of an issue to me, than if the speaker were attached too close to the mounting plate and protruded through the front. Looking through the posts in this topic that mention the Kenwoods, it sounds like clearances are tight, but possibly workable without any spacing:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/improving-sound-quality-the-diy-route/page/4#post-6791415
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/improving-sound-quality-the-diy-route/page/4#post-6792098
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/improving-sound-quality-the-diy-route/page/4#post-6792303

    #1085 1 year ago

    This thread is an awesome resource, thanks to those that started/contribute. It's kinda grown past the point of utility in some ways though...I was riding in the car two hours back from Pincinatti last weekend, and told myself I was gonna read though whole thing...got 6 or 7 pages in...

    davegauth - it would be great to see you distill down the "take home" you've learned on a separate page or post at some point.

    On a related note, would a database of setups folks have done be useful? I'm a big fan of Precision Flippers, and set this up so folks could submit the settings and coils that worked best on a given game:

    Www.whiskysimple.com/preflips-db

    Would be simpler for me to setup something similar for audio setups, only question is what to ask about. Game, speakers, ohms, amps, crossover, signal capture method, game audio settings, maybe a brief review come to mind...if this sounds like something useful that folks would contribute to, let me know and I'll get to it.

    #1086 1 year ago
    Quoted from Ollulanus:

    This thread is an awesome resource, thanks to those that started/contribute. It's kinda grown past the point of utility in some ways though...I was riding in the car two hours back from Pincinatti last weekend, and told myself I was gonna read though whole thing...got 6 or 7 pages in...
    davegauth - it would be great to see you distill down the "take home" you've learned on a separate page or post at some point.
    On a related note, would a database of setups folks have done be useful? I'm a big fan of Precision Flippers, and set this up so folks could submit the settings and coils that worked best on a given game:
    Www.whiskysimple.com/preflips-db
    Would be simpler for me to setup something similar for audio setups, only question is what to ask about. Game, speakers, ohms, amps, crossover, signal capture method, game audio settings, maybe a brief review come to mind...if this sounds like something useful that folks would contribute to, let me know and I'll get to it.

    I made my own buy list for reference here: http://bit.ly/sternaudio

    A centralized database where people could add their setup and quick review/comments could be nice. For example, I have no idea what the perceptible difference is between the Kicker CS and DS lines (which are a little cheaper).

    #1087 1 year ago

    Be careful not to overthink this whole thing... 22 pages may seem daunting to most. But you really only need the first page or 2. Baseline EQ settings were on page 2....

    The remaining 20 pages were needed to explore all the ins and outs, and the 900 different combinations to upgrade your pin. Much of the details pertained to the "why" of every option... Don't get lost in these details - These were the encouragement pages. It was beautiful to watch and see many get past their fears and give upgrading a try and explore their ideas for themselves.

    I have not added much to this thread lately as I prefer not to rehash things and make the thread bloated with more of the same. I certainly will post more as I continue to explore new things that haven't been seen yet in this thread. (still waiting on my replacement Rush cabinet.. grrrrrrrr) I'd like to do more speaker fights as it is really useful to have good controlled comparisons. But - this was turning into a very expensive process for me.

    Sound setting database - You certainly can put one together. If you enjoy doing it and have the time then go for it. It will definitely help someone who needs and finds it.

    Keep in mind sound is so subjective and has many codependency's and other factors that simply pointing out a bunch of settings doesn't account for the "other" factors that make the settings so dependent. For instance, do you have carpet or hardwood flooring? High or low ceilings? is you pin next to a wall, or is it in the open? Do you like deep bass or snappy bass? Do you like bright highs or subtle highs? Any compensation for your hearing health/ability? Now add the various characteristic of different gear being mixed together for the install and.... yikes.... that's allot of different setting combinations to account for.

    Geesh- what does this mean....... I'm no closer to getting the right settings for my pin I just upgraded......

    I know I'm sorry about that. It's best to just have you look at Page 2 for a starting point and for you to make tweaks to dial it in perfectly for your environment and liking.

    Want to find your own settings starting point? Here is what you do.....

    Go into settings, use the fader to only allow the backbox speakers to play. Go into the backbox EQ, put all the faders to the very bottom. Raise each one individually all the way up then all the way back down. Listen to the change in that sound frequency that you can hear. Now move that fader to a position where it sounds pleasant, the sound is clearly audible to a level you like without being too loud or harsh sounding.(usually I go to the top with it then back off) Do this for all 10 settings. then listen to it with all the settings set where they sounded good, now make minor tweaks to dial in the sound a little better as a whole. This is your backbox starting point.

    Pro Tip - Back box speakers are too small to deliver much bass below 75-125hrtz. The internal amp also doesn't have enough power to drive the lower frequencies without clipping either. Trying to get too much base out of the backbox speakers is just going to cause distortion.

    Now flip the fader so only the cabinet speaker plays. Do the exact same thing for the cabinet speaker EQ settings.

    Pro-tip.... #1 The cabinet speaker can handle more bass and lower frequencies, so can the amp because its 2 channels bridged(double what the backbox can do). But the speaker struggles with higher frequencies. So cut off most of the higher frequencies so you are not asking it to do something that it's not good at. #2 the cabinet shares air passage to the backbox. If you have a large overlapping frequency range with the backbox speakers odds are high those frequencies will be out of alignment and sound like poop.

    Now with both of the starting settings complete move the fader where the blended sound of the backbox and cabinet speaker sound pleasant together. Now you can go back into the EQ and make any final tweaks to adjust the sound as a whole unit...

    Done....

    #1088 1 year ago

    davegauth - yeah, I hear you on the info overload/to many variables to account for and tell the whole story as far as sound settings. Does seem like it might be useful to say "I have GOTG - what did other folks out in here to upgrade the sound, and what did they think about it" and search and see some options. I did note with interest that your pick of the Kickers as the winner was largely tied to the specific audio in Godzilla.

    On a related note, since I wasn't up to fuss with adding an amp at the moment and had a crossover lying around, I wound up putting those kickers and a JBL sub w/ crossover in my Zilla. Fussed around a bunch with the EQ settings with and without crossover, ultimately decided I was pretty happy just turning off the EQ and using the crossover. Think I could get a 5% better result w/ the EQ, but not worth the hassle to me.

    #1089 1 year ago

    The kickers seem like the go to option for their quality and ease of mounting. My question is how will they sound on older games like Sam and whitestar. My understanding is that the source audio isn’t great so upgrading speakers will make things worse. This was my experience with lotr but I also used 4” Pyle speakers which aren’t great eaither.

    #1090 1 year ago

    Another thing, I’ve tried a few different speakers/woofers in my Star Wars pro, including the kicker/JBL 810 combo. Nothing seems to sound better than the stock setup. I’ve played with the equalizer, used the suggested settings which seemed to sound better on my deadpool. But for some reason Star Wars does not sound better with upgraded speakers. The sounds seem to muddle together and some call outs are hard to make out. Maybe adding an amp would help but I’m just swapping speakers for now.

    #1091 1 year ago
    Quoted from dmj1977:

    Hoping to get some general advice. Pictured is the sub in my GZLE and the sub I took out of my GNR CE. Am I right right the GNR one (pyramid) is better?
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    Speakers are tough to judge by picture. The power rating is almost irrelevant, but used by manufacturers for 'marketing' purposes mostly (higher numbers always seem better to some buyers). The WEIGHT of the speaker DOES have some relation to the depth of the sound you will hear, so in general heavier is better IMHO. That said, without looking at the freq range specs, and the response numbers, it really boils down to which sounds better to YOU.

    #1092 1 year ago
    Quoted from Markharris2000:

    Speakers are tough to judge by picture. The power rating is almost irrelevant, but used by manufacturers for 'marketing' purposes mostly (higher numbers always seem better to some buyers). The WEIGHT of the speaker DOES have some relation to the depth of the sound you will hear, so in general heavier is better IMHO. That said, without looking at the freq range specs, and the response numbers, it really boils down to which sounds better to YOU.

    Thanks Markharris2000 - much appreciated. Will compare the weight and then maybe just take a listen

    #1093 1 year ago

    Just a quick shout out to pete_d for posting the print files for the 5.25 plates. I printed 3 sets in PLA on my Prusa MK3 and all 6 printed fine, mounted nicely to my Kenwood KFC-1366S speakers (Amazon $34.00 as of today). Look at my photos and you'll see RUSH, Godzilla PRE, and Iron Maiden PRE all using the off-centered version. Not willing to re-do, but maybe someday if it bothers me. Regardless of offset, I think they look great, the design was well drafted and intelligent. You saved me a ton of $$$ pete! I used red PLA for 'zilla was the filament color. I painted RUSH gold and IM yellow to match.

    I'm also using Blaupunkt GBW801 8" subs (Amazon $34.33 as of today). I've tried a lot of speakers in 25 years of pinball ownership & restoration. These with the Stern 10 band EQ and fader are pretty darn close to what I was buying from Pinball Pro some years ago - at a fraction of the cost. I made an 8" ring and printed it up. My simple design has be popping out the old 4 flat speaker studs and replacing them with #6 T-Nuts. I then use 4x #6-32 1/4"Hex Head screws to secure the sandwich of grill, adapter, speaker, and washer. It holds tight enough to shake the entire machine if you hold onto the magnet and give it a shake. These subs are single coil with spring connectors. In all cases I desolder the old wires off the OEM garbage speakers and attach to these replacements. My super fast and simple model is here: https://www.printables.com/model/338950-8-subwoofer-adapter-for-stern-spike-2-pinball-mach

    I think I read someone talking about weight. These subs are at least 5 times heavier than stock woofers. With the 10 band EQ boosting (from left to right) only the 2nd and 3rd bands, 1st band left in the middle, 4th and onwards dropped to bottom ... there's still a little mid pass. Very little though. I may try to take a coil out of a dead home theater sub to see if that helps some but for now, these are amazing for the price.

    Anyway - thanks to all that contribute to this thread. It's great to see people come up with solutions and share with the community!
    -Rob

    PXL_20221212_005348979.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20221212_005348979.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_015721764.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_015721764.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_015810517 (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_015810517 (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_015917970.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_015917970.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_015944653.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_015944653.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_020023697.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20221218_020023697.MP (resized).jpg
    #1094 1 year ago
    Quoted from RobCraig:

    Just a quick shout out to pete_d for posting the print files for the 5.25 plates. I printed 3 sets in PLA on my Prusa MK3 and all 6 printed fine, mounted nicely to my Kenwood KFC-1366S speakers (Amazon $34.00 as of today). Look at my photos and you'll see RUSH, Godzilla PRE, and Iron Maiden PRE all using the off-centered version. Not willing to re-do, but maybe someday if it bothers me. Regardless of offset, I think they look great, the design was well drafted and intelligent. You saved me a ton of $$$ pete! I used red PLA for 'zilla was the filament color. I painted RUSH gold and IM yellow to match.
    I'm also using Blaupunkt GBW801 8" subs (Amazon $34.33 as of today). I've tried a lot of speakers in 25 years of pinball ownership & restoration. These with the Stern 10 band EQ and fader are pretty darn close to what I was buying from Pinball Pro some years ago - at a fraction of the cost. I made an 8" ring and printed it up. My simple design has be popping out the old 4 flat speaker studs and replacing them with #6 T-Nuts. I then use 4x #6-32 1/4"Hex Head screws to secure the sandwich of grill, adapter, speaker, and washer. It holds tight enough to shake the entire machine if you hold onto the magnet and give it a shake. These subs are single coil with spring connectors. In all cases I desolder the old wires off the OEM garbage speakers and attach to these replacements. My super fast and simple model is here: https://www.printables.com/model/338950-8-subwoofer-adapter-for-stern-spike-2-pinball-mach
    I think I read someone talking about weight. These subs are at least 5 times heavier than stock woofers. With the 10 band EQ boosting (from left to right) only the 2nd and 3rd bands, 1st band left in the middle, 4th and onwards dropped to bottom ... there's still a little mid pass. Very little though. I may try to take a coil out of a dead home theater sub to see if that helps some but for now, these are amazing for the price.
    Anyway - thanks to all that contribute to this thread. It's great to see people come up with solutions and share with the community!
    -Rob
    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    How did you get those tiny screws installed on the monitor side?

    #1095 1 year ago

    For those that are using a Bluetooth amp to listen to music from your phone I've been using an app to add an equalizer and fine tune everything since the Stern 10-band doesn't work when listening with Bluetooth. There's a bunch to choose from so I just picked this one with high ratings and its the only one I've tried but it makes an impressive difference.

    Screenshot_20221218-173641_Google Play Store (resized).jpgScreenshot_20221218-173641_Google Play Store (resized).jpg
    #1096 1 year ago
    Quoted from ray-dude:

    WPC Speaker Upgrade
    Recipe for upgrading the speakers on a WPC pin (ST:TNG)
    Shopping list
    Backbox
    WPC Speaker panel with 5 1/4” speaker cut outs $40
    https://virtuapin.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=114&zenid=fd9jdjhled6cvdbuq0b0j48nc0
    Satin black spray paint for new speaker panel $7
    amazon.com link »
    Kicker CS Series CSC5 5 1/4” Speakers $77
    amazon.com link »
    8x #8 7/8” screws to mount backbox speakers to panel $10
    amazon.com link »
    Speaker Light Kits Deluxe 5 1/4” Type 13 kit $75
    http://speakerlightkits.com/Type-13.html
    Note: for WPC games, let Doug (DugFreez) know you need the "2 blade US power cable”, not one that normally comes with that kit to connect to a Stern SPIKE 2 game
    (Optional) Deluxe Sound activated RGB controller (for Speaker Light Kit) $10
    http://speakerlightkits.com/Use-of-Deluxe-Sound-Activated-RGB-Controller.html
    3M 467MP Clear Adhesive Transfer Tape to attach speaker panel acrylic to new panel $18
    amazon.com link »
    Cabinet
    JBL Stage 810 800W Max 8" Subwoofer $70
    amazon.com link »
    8" Subwoofer Speaker Spacers 1/2” Depth Extender Extending Rings $18
    amazon.com link »
    Power
    (optional) Switched triggered power outlet $30
    amazon.com link »
    Future Goodies
    Pinsound PLUS $390
    https://www.pinsound.org/shop/en/44-5506-pinsound-plus-pinball-sound-board.html
    Dayton Audio 2.1 100W amp $99
    amazon.com link »
    Speaker cable, connectors, etc.
    amazon.com link »
    amazon.com link »
    (If you would like a very detailed write up on upgrading sound on WPC systems, please see Joseph “Tony” Dziedzic’s OG article from 2005 - http://www.dziedzic.us/wpc_speaker_replacement.html )
    Intro
    After successfully and very happily upgrading the sound system on my modern pins, it was time to dive in to upgrading the sound on my daughter’s Star Trek: The Next Generation. This involves upgrading the back box and cabinet speakers, adding some speaker lights from Doug @ SpeakerLightKits.com , and in the future, adding a Pinsound to get full orchestrations.
    This write up is capturing my shopping list and an outline of what I went through to get the job done. Please refer to the respective manuals and Tony’s very detailed write up from 2005 for details, or drop me a note with questions. If DIY seems like too much, there are commercial options out there as well.
    For my Godzilla LE, I had fantastic results with the Kicker CS5’s and JBL 810 sub, which are favorites here on the DIY sound upgrade thread. These are 5 1/4” speakers and 8” woofer respectively, so require modifications to the stock speaker panel and cabinet to work, and need new wiring and amplification to connect to the game.
    I’m neither skilled nor motivated to be sawing large holes in my speaker panel or my cabinet, so I used a simpler approach than what Tony highlighted in his guide. Feel free to mix and match to whatever you have comfort with.
    Speaker Panel
    The stock speaker panel on TNG (and other WPC games) has a 5 1/4” hole and a 4” hole. Rather than sawing out an enlarged hole for the right driver, I purchased a bare WPC 5 1/4” speaker panel from Virtuapin. Price was right ($40) and came predrilled and with t nuts for the mounting hardware. Awesome, one carpentry problem solved.
    [quoted image]
    Before moving parts from my stock speaker panel over to the new one, first thing I did was make sure all the t nuts were (mostly) flush with the panel (much easier to hammer them in now vs after the panel is populated). I also spray painted both the front and back sides of the panel black, making sure to paint the inside of the speaker openings and DMD opening.
    [quoted image]
    Next, it was time to disassemble my stock panel and move parts over to the new panel. This includes the back hooks where the speaker panel hangs from the back box, and the glass channel at the top of the panel. These can be purchased new from Pinball Life or Marco if you prefer to not move them over, but I moved mine. I also removed the DMD to make things easier to work on (take pictures before disassembling anything!)
    The tricky things to move over are the acrylic front of the stock speaker panel, and the speaker grilles with the Star Fleet insignia. Tony’s guide goes into great detail on how to do this without damaging the parts. If you’re not comfortable with doing so, I suspect there are reproductions available to purchase new so you can leave your old panel alone. Take your time, be careful, this is the only tricky and scary part of this upgrade.
    While you have the acrylic panel removed, this is the perfect time to clean and polish it, I hit mine with #3 Novus in some tough areas, then #2 Novus for the entire panel, then finally #1 Novus to finish it off.
    With the front acrylic removed, time to remove the screws that the DMD is mounted to. You will need to install these on your new panel before you attack the acrylic speaker panel face to your new panel. You can use a hammer to knock these out, but note that these screws do have a threaded portion to keep them from spinning when you tighten the bolts for the DMD. What I did is I wrapped the end of the screws with a cloth, and gently used a set of pliers to grip them and rotate counter clockwise while pushing down on the long part of the screw. This popped the screw right out of the front of the speaker panel until the thread area was clear, then I used a hammer to get them the rest of the way out.
    [quoted image]
    On the new panel, it was a tight fit to get the DMD mounting screws back in. I used a hammer to get them in right up to the thread near the head of the screw. I then used a bolt and washer to tighten it in the rest of the way (press on the head of the bolt while tightening the bolt against the speaker panel on the other side, and the bolt will thread right into the front side of the panel)
    Next, I installed the speaker grilles on the panel. Careful to not damage or bend your panel as you do so. I was able to use several of the original staples, and used a staple gun for the rest. I gently (and carefully!) used a hammer to get the staples as flush with the surface of the grilles as I could (don’t ding the grilles with the hammer!). In the photos you can see my original panel on the bottom and new panel on the top. With the grilles moved, you can see the smaller right speaker, which is the reason I need a new panel to use two 5 1/4” speakers
    [quoted image]
    [quoted image]
    Following Tony’s guide, use the 3M tape to mount the speaker panel acrylic to your new panel. Take your time, get it right, and sure all the tape is secure and snug. You most definitely don’t want to have to remove the panel and do this over again.
    Finally, reattach the panel hooks, glass channel, the foam around the DMD opening, and the DMD. At this point, you will have a complete panel ready for installing the speaker lights and speakers.
    [quoted image]
    [quoted image]
    The installation of the Kicker’s and Type 13 kit is very straight forward. Follow the installation instructions for the Type 13 kit and you’re good to go. Make sure you’re not over tightening the speakers, and to make sure the ground ribbon is reattached on the new panel to all the components where it was attached on the original panel (DMD, speakers, etc)
    [quoted image]
    [quoted image]
    Your speaker panel is now ready to be wired into the machine.
    Note that the original ST:TNG is a mono game. While waiting on my Pinsound, I wired the sound to the left speaker only (on the Kickers, the wide tab is “+” and the narrow tab is “-“). When the Pinsound arrives, it has stereo output and I’ll wire up both speakers for stereo.
    (Many thanks to Eric_Manuel for the inspiration to add the speaker lights and for many other ideas from his Star Trek Experience project…Eric posted a video showing speaker lights in hist machine here )
    Advanced Wiring for the Speaker Lit Kits
    Also note that the Type 13 kit has its own 5V power supply for the LEDs in the speaker lights. If you’re going to be using the kit with a WPC game, let Doug know that you need a ”2 blade US power cable" to be included with the kit, and not one that normally comes with that kit to connect to a Stern SPIKE 2 game.
    Using the regular power cable, you can plug the speaker light kit power supply in to the service outlet, but then it is on even with the machine off.
    Rather than have to use the remote that comes with the kit to turn it off and on, or connect the speaker light kit to 5V in the machine (5V is used for the CPU board), I built a power strip (plugged into the service outlet) wired in a relay that turns the power strip on when 12V from the game is active. That way, the game can turn on power from the power strip, and the speaker light kit has the benefit of using its own dedicated power brick, plugged into the switched power strip.
    If that sounds scary (and if you’re not sure if it sounds scary or not, probably best to consider it scary), I suggest you pick up a commercial switched outlet:
    amazon.com link »
    and wire it to an appropriate voltage line on the machine (this commercial unit accepts 3-48VDC, and 12-120VAC as control voltages…basically, when the unit senses a voltage on the control input, it acts like a switch and turns on power to the controlled outlets).
    For my homebrew version, I used a 12V controlled relay for my switched outlet, so I used a 12V line from the machine (I use J114-2 on the Power Driver Board, but if you review the schematics, there are 12V lines available to tap into in multiple places). The relay uses a minimum amount of current, so you don’t need to be worried about overwhelming the power circuit on your machine (in the case of ST:TNG, the cannon motors and optos are on the 12V line, so it can be finicky).
    Now when you turn on your machine, the relay in the power strip kicks in and you have switched power that you can plug your speaker lights (and other mods, like toppers, etc) into. As a bonus, if you have a bunch of other mods or a DIY topper that needs power, you can now plug them into same switched outlet, and not overload the power supply board in your pin.
    Cabinet speaker
    My ST:TNG has a smaller woofer inside the cabinet, mounted to a raised area with a smaller hole in the bottom of the cabinet. In Tony’s guide, he walks through the process of drilling out the hole in the bottom of the cabinet so that it is big enough for a 8” woofer. I’m not that brave (and honestly, I try to restrict my uber hifi audiophile crazy to my main music set up, not my pins).
    For me, my strategy is to remove the stock subwoofer, pry off the raised platform area to reduce the height (so my new 8” JBL woofer doesn’t run into the underside of my playfield), and use a spacer ring to leave space between the new 8” driver and the cabinet. The idea here is to not have the moving cone on the driver touch the cabinet (it will buzz and sound horrible). Things will sound better with a 8” hole, but again, that is a future optimization for me, that I may never actually get to.
    Once you remove the original woofer, you can see the raised area the speaker is mounted on, and the smaller hole that WPC are built with. The raised area is glued and stapled to the cabinet. I removed it by gently using a pry bar from the inside of the opening, then gently prying up. Glue was old enough on my cabinet that it easily separated from the main cabinet.
    [quoted image]
    [quoted image]
    After a quick vacuum (and finding some long lost nuts and washers) time to test fit the JBL subwoofer. Note that the JBL is *significantly* larger than the original WPC subwoofer. It is important to test fit and make sure that when the playfield is lowered there aren’t any mechs that are touching the woofer (I had good clearance with my ST:TNG)
    [quoted image]
    To give the 8” woofer room to move, I used a 1/2” tall 8” woofer spacer. When positioned, the driver is not centered with the smaller hole. In the grad scheme of things, would it be better to have an 8” hole and the driver centered on it? Absolutely. Am I happier doing no carpentry and being OK with off centered mounting? Absolutely^2
    [quoted image]
    [quoted image]
    Note that I do not use a speaker grille for the subs in my home machines. I also did not put in a cross over or equalization, since I plan to eventually have these when I put in a Pinsound or potentially a Dayton Audio amp.
    So how does it sound?
    Definitely an improvement over the stock speakers, even when driven by the stock sound board and amp with no equalization. That being said, these speakers can sounds a LOT better with better amplification, and equalization to blend them together. For better or worse, the built in WPC amp is never going to rock, but with better amplification, these speakers can definitely go there.
    My plan is to get a Pinsound board (which has a built in amp and equalization) and that should take it up several notches, esp. with the higher quality stereo orchestrations that are available for ST:TNG. When that gets here, I’ll properly wire up the speakers separately in a 2.1 configuration (speaker cable from the Pinsound to each speaker driver).
    Based on what I hear, I may get a Dayton Audio DTA-2.1BT2 100W amp (amazon.com link »). I had fantastic results with this in my Godzilla with the Kickers and JBL sub (wow!). Before going there though, I’d like to hear what the Pinsound is able to do on its own.
    NOTE: If you do get the Dayton Audio amp, remember to plug it into the service outlet (not the switched outlet). When this amp loses power, it requires the power button to be physically pressed to turn the amp on. In my Godzilla, I leave the amp on all the time, plugged into the service outlet.
    As far as the speaker light kit in TNG, when I sent a video clip to my daughter (it is her game, I’m juicing it up while she’s at college), the mic drop response was “SO DOPE”. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

    This looks like a fun project!

    1 week later
    #1097 1 year ago

    Decided to take the plunge

    Ordered

    Dayton amp 2.1
    3.5 male to male connector
    Besign loop isolator
    Iot relay

    I have to install
    Kicker speakers(missing adaptors)
    Jbl sub( to be delivered)
    Pinsound cn5 adaptor with polk sub (in my gz- but very tiny sound)

    What am i missing to get the setup complete?

    #1098 1 year ago

    Has anyone upgraded speakers on The Simpsons Pinball Party? Is so, worth it? Anything unique required for installation?

    #1099 1 year ago
    Quoted from davegauth:

    DIY sound upgrades round 3
    I was getting frustrated with the stock woofer muddling up the sound of the new back box speakers. If we don't address this now, I don't think any additional levels of improvements will make any sense. It's like trying to listen to a vocalist do a solo while garbage trucks drive around behind the stage...
    We could try to help this by adding to a separate powered subwoofer that can live under the pin for around $150-$200. It'll give us better base and fill out the sound spectrum in the lower subwoofer frequency range. But I'm not sure this is a great option just yet. It's expensive and that stock woofer will still be howling away in the background.
    It's time to throw down with a new bolt in sub-woofer.
    Subwoofers present a challenge in a pin. First, it's by no means an ideal enclosure. Second, they are power hungry and require a lot of power to truly shine. Third, good subs get expensive fast.
    I found a renewed JBL Stage 810 for $50. A pretty good price for a solid upper-mid level subwoofer. If this nice JBL didn't work, there is no hope for anything lower/cheaper making a difference. Plus, I'm bolting these in with no amplification or additional hardware of any kind. Take out the stock woofer and put this in its place, that's it.
    So how did it go - Ohhhhhh Myyyyyyyy Myyy Myy... This did the trick and then some. The pin is now coming alive. The base is very tight and punchy, you can feel it in your hands. It also cuts off closer to 500-1k without any filtering. This means much less mid is being created less projection through the backbox. What does make it up the backbox is nice and crisp and doesn't interfere or compete with the backbox speakers.
    Pro's - This is the missing piece needed to make upgrading speakers worthwhile. Once balanced with the backbox speakers they stayed that way through all volume levels. Even lower volume levels still gave that nice bass/punch feel. There is also a tactile feel that is delivered to your hands. When the shaker and the soundtrack sync up - it's like having a shaker on roids. It'll make you look at your machine and say "wow - that's different"
    Con's - It is a power-hungry sub. Even though it's 4ohms, you will need to run it as 8ohm to be able to balance more evenly with the back box speakers running at 4ohm. Mounting is not a simple bolt in replacement. The bolts in the cabinet will need to be replaced with longer ones, as the lip on this JBL is really thick. Alternatively, it's possible to clamp it down from the inside with some screws and toe clamps.
    Overall - Speaker upgrades may only be worth it if you also change out that crappy woofer. Once you do - it just opens everything up. With this setup we are still 100% bolt in. For about $115ish dollars invested it's an incredible bang for the buck improvement. Many people could stop here and be really happy.
    Next up - I'll get back to testing some quality 5.25" speaker upgrade options.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    Thoughts on pairing this JBl 810 sub with kicker Cs5 backbox speakers in a modern stern like GZ or IMDN? Winning combo?

    Looking for a swap in upgrade and don’t want to go nuts with pinwoofers or amps or external subs.

    Thanks.

    #1100 1 year ago

    Searched thread for CGC discussion but didn’t find much.

    What’s the consensus on the SE remakes, Cactus Canton, for example. The marketing touts “upgraded sound” but how real is that? Are the stock speakers decent or crap like Stern? Any advice on good swap in replacements for backbox and cab for CGC?

    Thanks much.

    There are 1,828 posts in this topic. You are on page 22 of 37.

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