Most of the issue with the audio is with the source material, sure in some cases a better woofer will help move more air but until you can remaster the source throwing a better speaker at the problem doesn't help much.

I am looking forward to seeing the results of your research!

Following

Yeah, I mentioned my upgrades in the Godzilla thread. Deadpool improvements are excellent. Same parts in AIQ and there is some "crackling" especially when Thanos talks... probably source material compression or whatnot. The soundtrack in Deadpool is just so much better all the way around than AIQ unfortunately.

Looking forward to your testing and results.

I used one of these guys
amazon.com link »

hooked it to the incoming cabinet speaker line and then to the amplifier and then to the an enclosed shallow mount 8" sub. worked pretty well.
Did it to a JJP and a stern spike 2 so far.

enlosed sub (used kicker brand also.)
amazon.com link »

amplifier plugged it into the 115v in the backbox... Think I made a quick connect where the bill acceptor usually plugs in.
amazon.com link »

can always get a lepai hifi amp if your doing 4 channel.

no real wrong way to do it.

Good thread... following

Indeed

following. i don't know jack about upgrading audio in pins. this is a great 101 for me. thanks for doing this!

Do you make any changes to the EQ in the utilities menu or just leave it at default?

Before there was Pinwoofer, before Flipper Fidelity, before even PinballPro, there was the original DIY: my amplified AFM that I hauled to Expo 20 years ago.

There was nothing else like it... you could hear martians dying clear across the hall. Most people really enjoyed it and I brought it back for a couple more Expos. This is the game that started the trend for better pinball audio. I documented the build on RGP for others to use, and later did my Demo Man and STTNG. Eventually PinballPro came out with their original unamplified kits, and the pinball audio aftermarket was born. The AFM upgrade still works great!

(Also includes an early flipper cooling prototype!)

afmaudio (resized).png

davegauth posting my setup here for documentation purposes. These are lower cost options, but in my experience offer excellent improvement over factory Pro/Premium setups. Also note - I run Speaker Light Kits and these will clear the power supply on the right side of the backbox.

I've had good success on a few machines using the Pyle PL412BK 4" speakers for the backbox and Skar Audio FSX8-4 8" Mid-Range Woofer for the cabinet. Around $50 - $60 total for those. I use 8 ohm setting for cab and 4 ohm for backbox and tweak settings to my liking.
Also use a Monoprice 8" or 12" for an external powered sub ($70 - $140)... and of course shaker as well!

For current upgrades, HocusLocus has the right idea with purchasing a speaker-level to line out converter. This lets you connect directly to the backbox speaker leads and avoid messing with the Spike2 board. Get one of those, connect the inputs to the backbox speaker leads, and run the line out to your amp. Nowadays, the amplifier/equalizers I used aren't available, but there are plenty of small 2.1 amps to use, like this Lepai model:

https://www.parts-express.com/Lepai-LP-168HA-2.1-2x40W-Amplifier-1x68W-Sub-Output-310-308

You would connect the Lepai directly to replacement backbox speakers and a new cabinet subwoofer. Here are all of Parts Express's 4" speakers:

https://www.parts-express.com/car-audio/car-speakers-subwoofers/dash-door-deck-car-speakers/speakersize/4.0

Lately I've been getting the Visaton FX-10s. These have the tweeter flush with the surround ring, so you can install them behind the Stern grilles no problem. They sound good and are only $20ea.

https://www.parts-express.com/Visaton-FX10-4-Coaxial-Speaker-292-674

For the cabinet sub, you don't really need to spend a lot. $20-$30 subs work fine. Here are all of Parts Express' 8" subs:

https://www.parts-express.com/car-audio/car-speakers-subwoofers/car-subwoofer-speakers/nominaldiameter/8

This Pyle is only $20 and would be fine in a pinball application. You can always spend more but I have yet to blow a sub in a pinball.

https://www.parts-express.com/Pyle-PLPW8D-Power-8-800-Watt-DVC-Subwoofer-267-7452

I recommend removing the plastic grille to keep the sub cone from buzzing it. Also, if the game is a Spike 2, go into the settings and set for 4 ohm and remove any equalizer or filter settings. Use the bass/treble/sub controls on the amp to adjust the sound... I wouldn't trust the digital adjustments the game makes.

I may have been first, but TheKorn completely knocked it outta the park later on.. (2nd pic)

https://www.pinballnews.com/shows/expo2010/index2.html

I chatted with Jerry Thompson (sound designer on Godzilla) about this. I asked him what quality/resolution he mixed at and how it gets stored in the game, expecting his answer to be a low bit rate MP3. He surprised me by saying CD quality 16 bit/44kHz, and that the main issue with the sound in the pin other than the inexpensive stock speakers is the weak amp in the Spike 2 system.

I already have replaced the speakers and my next plan is to install an amplifier using a Pinnovator's sub-out kit to provide the input. After looking at the main pinball-specific aftermarket amp I have found what appears to be a close cousin on Amazon; the Fosi Audio BT30D for $89.99. It has 2 channels at 50 watts for the backbox speakers and 1 channel at 100 watts for the cabinet woofer, with separate sub low pass and volume trim controls.

Any thoughts about this amp and my plan?

amazon.com link »

Fosi Audio BT30D

Gogo: I bought a similar "better" amp from parts express for my Maiden, and it shit the bed after about 10 months. The cheap Lepais are still working fine, except for a little noise in the controls. Even when it worked, the bigger amp didn't sound noticeably better than the cheaper one.

This is the one that failed early: https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-DTA-2.1BT2-100W-2.1-Class-D-Bluetooth-Amplifier-with-Sub-Frequency-Adjustment-300-3831 The one you're looking at probably has the same innards (both are 24v, etc)

A while ago I spent a good amount of time looking around for reviews on lower end amps and most rate poorly. I found this Blaupunkt performed surprisingly well and cost the same as the one you mention. I have had on my list for a while, so haven't tried it for myself.
amazon.com link »

It's big and doofy looking, but should be way more clean sound than I can stand in a game. The only slight downside is that it doesn't have a line out for an external sub. My plan is to take the line out from the Spike2 board to the amp and y-split one channel to go directly to an external sub.

Speaking of external sub, I added one of these 4-way active mixers to connect four games to my extra obnoxious 12" powered sub. It has individual mixer controls to balance the sound between games. amazon.com link »

How big of a speaker can you fit in a Spike2 backbox? If there's room for 6x9's...

Great to have a dedicated thread to this topic.
My ears are super sensitive to poor sound. and I absolutely love any DIY solution that can improve it on my GZ PRO.

I have swapped the Backbox speakers to the LE Kenwoods and removed the grill underneath (did that a long time ago as I discovered the same thing you experienced with the crackling noises).
These to things of cause improved the sound, but I find it SO hard to tweak settings decently. the speech and sounds still hits some crazy highs some times.
And like you say the backbox and cabinet speakers work so poorly together and mix so bad and doesn't even filter correct .

Hoping to find a decent solution here so I can just concentrate on playing

I have a similar configuration but hooked the exact same amp to the stock LE cab speaker. I found that for good sound i need to operate the amp on full freq setting, otherwise loose too much of the mids.

Its a huge improvement and bass enhancement because the CPU board is just not enough juice for the stock speaker. It can take much more.

BTW you dont need this converter thing, because the board has a direct line level output at CN5. I use an adapter cable like this
https://www.pinsound.org/shop/de/64-subwoofer-line-out-stern-spike.html

Are you operating the enclosed sub in addition to the stock cab speaker? And then using sub setting on amp?

Cool didn't know pinsound had that board. I'd probably use it if I was doing the backbox speakers also, but I'm cool with the stock spike amp for the backbox speakers for now. Might do that later with the few games that clip on me, think jurassic park is one of them. If you look at the spike board schematic there is a separate amp for the backbox speakers and the cabinet woofer. Think they are rated at 45W.... but I don't 100% remember. Doing this might also help take some of the load off the backbox amp if you drop the bass down and use the backbox mainly for mid and high range. Haven't had any clipping issues with the game its on now, but we'll see.

no I take out the open air woofer, I just drill this velcro stuff into the 4 corners of the box that touch the cab. (since you can't really stick anything on that fabric)
amazon.com link »
clean the cab, and put this on the bottom. you can always use a mounting bracket, but I usually try to make everything I do reversible without leaving scars on the game itself. Fits perfectly btwn the playfield rails (and isn't moving anywhere), the bass is a lot cleaner than an open air I think.

Just make sure you use that anti-rattle tape on the playfield glass. As far as the amp, its on pbtl for wider range on the sub. I thought it sounded better, but its all about personal preference.

Main problem is Bluetooth has latency. It might not bother you that much but sound effects and callouts will be out of sync with the light show and media display.

Dont know if i understand you correctly, pinsound part is not a board, its just an adapter connected to CN5 on the Spike cpu board.

I leave the backbox speakers completely alone. I disconnect the cabinet speaker from spike, connect the pinsound adapter subwoofer out to the little amp. Connect the amp to the cabinet speaker.

I set the little amp switch to full freq because it seems that the spike subwoofer out is really a mid-to-low-out just software mixed. If i switch the amp to sub mode the sound is missing alot depth because the cabinet speaker is not really a subwoofer but takes part in the overall sound

i had always thought that the improvements you can get from just adding speakers is not going to yield much because of the source file and the weak amplification (crap in, crap out). I do not own a pinwoofer system, but I believe he adds amplification and that's one reason why it sounds so good. Rather than start by adding speakers, for DIY I think the better first step is to try to add amplification, which I don't know how to do.

Hahaha!

I think this may be true with pins that were never designed for better sound, but if Stern makes a Pro with crappy speakers and an LE with better speakers, I think it's safe to say the source material -should- be high quality on the Spike 2 pins the OP is discussing.

Thanks, FlippyD. I wasn't planning on using the Bluetooth feature. The amp would be fed by the audio out of the Pinnovators adaptor or the line out at CN5 (though I can't find it!).

I'm assuming that CN5 has an 1/8" mini-jack stereo connector?

Thanks metallik. I have your design on my AFM since way back and it works great. There is so much added bass that it feels like a shaker motor.

Also put this on my Congo and the drum track is amazing. Hopefully the current owner is still enjoying it.

I have a couple more amps/speaker sets to eventually upgrade Shadow and TZ.

Hey Lermods !

I acknowledge that this creative discussion is geared towards those who want to strike out and DIY. I agree that upgrading speakers alone is mostly a disappointment. Opinions vary but mine is that perhaps 25% of the potential of the track can be unlocked with speaker upgrades. The balance, PinWoofer has solved. We've been doing this long enough to have identified and addressed the common problems in pinball audio and have well engineered solutions to do so. Our system is turnkey (with detailed install videos and instructions) and for most, takes 30-60 minutes to get up and running and bam, you're back to playing pinball with improved presence and clarity in your audio.

DIY'ers face challenges selecting the right gear, creating connectors and wiring harnesses and the vital the selection a clean power solution. Even if you do everything "right", it is possible to end up with a noisy system due to ground loops and virtual ground issues. There are a number of other pitfalls if you don't have a good plan as you go along.

We're seeing a striking number of new people in the hobby and many may be unfamiliar with the risk of working around the electronics. As I read through this I have some concerns over the potential to wire up in a way that does damage to your CPU node / amplifier board. We've had so many calls from guys who have made mistakes or made "creative" decisions and have ended up with some pretty significant damage to their CPU ($500-$800 repair / replacement cost). Some of the cheap Chinese stuff out there is pretty low quality and more importantly, lack sufficient testing and screening to ensure that you don't put your electronics in jeopardy. (Customer scare photos below.)

Please do not take any of this as a knock and I'm not trying to discourage anyone, but we were mentioned and I've tried to highlight the good and the bad. There is a place for DIY but ask yourself if you are up to it and if the potential risks are acceptable. We benefit greatly from all of the emphasis that's put into pinball audio so keep up the discussion!

Thanks for your time,

Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MST, Mon - Fri

Dam (resized).jpg

Yes, I've found on the newer Spike and SAM games, you have to connect the amp chassis to the game's ground braid, or else you get a hum. The older WPC games didn't have this issue as much. Some amps have a ground screw to use, but if it doesn't, just back one of the housing screws out and connect the wire to it, then to the ground braid.

Its pretty safe to take the power from the main cabinet power switch, obviously dont take power from the boards or low ampere connections somewhere

Pinwoofer is really cool and sorted out but it has a premium cost to it. I like to do some 2$ wiring harnesses myself

Yeah adapter is what I meant. Your probably right about that, it sounds fine with it in sub mode, but for sure feels like there is something missing.

http://pinballbash.com/forum/index.php?topic=21654.0

Troy over on pinball bash posted some info on upgrading the subwoofer on spike machines and adding a crossover. My LZ actually came from him and has the upgraded sub with crossover. It sounds pretty good to me.

If you're just replacing speakers, Spike gives high/low filter options in the sound setup. Enabling these should remove the need for crossovers, but installing one certainly won't hurt.

Not Spike2, but related:

I modified a DCS board with a filter enable switch for the backbox. Stock speakers sound much better with it disabled, expect full range speakers to perform better when provided with a full range signal.

If you are really serious about audio and using a DCS board, populate the audio-out header and run that signal to an amplifier. Turn the in-game audio up to the high 50's. These machines use digital attenuation, so the higher the volume the fewer bits getting truncated off the signal.

Any thoughts to this crossover with upgraded back box speakers? I’m trying to find a subwoofer under $40 for the cabinet as well

Dayton Audio 800-LPF-4 Low Pass... amazon.com link »

800Hz is too high for a subwoofer, you want something less than 200.

Earlier link references this one:

amazon.com link »

Thanks

Enjoying your progress and results. Also enjoy your writing style.

Interested if your thoughts will be similar to mine... I originally would go with a subwoofer replacement for the cabinet speaker even though I also added an external sub. After a bit I decided to try more of a mid-range woofer in the cab and liked it better. Still has the base feeling in your hands, even though the external sub provides more punch, but don't lose that midrange. I also use 8 ohm setting for the cab speaker, but I typically only run my games in the 13-18 volume range which is plenty loud for my bedroom game room.
I'm no audiophile and I stay on the lower end of the budget spectrum, but do enjoy the improved sound experience. Interested to see what your best bang for the buck results are!

I have a chunky 8” JBL sub in my IMVE with sub filter that came with it, it didn’t sound much better than really cheap subs that I use. I added kicker 4” backbox speakers that was a big improvement and easily added. Normally use decent 3 ohm JBL’s in parallel but they need a spacer.

Never been happy with the in cabinet subs although adding a better speaker helps so added a 15” external sub that I had spare, makes the cab subs sound crap and insignificant! Can easily be overpowering but once you get the level to your liking it’s all good.
Connected to 4 pins, forget the glass shaking now it’s the room.

C250D7E9-C51B-42DC-98A3-ED5BED7A6B4D (resized).jpeg

I think what most people do is just use the Cabinet Speaker connections and extend a wire in parallel to an external powered sub. Insanely easy and gives that powerful bass. The external subwoofer is a real subwoofer and can be adjustet for bass only with Frequency cut-off at 80-120Hz. The Cabinet Speaker is still active for the mid- to low frequencies. Plus you can adjust the bass intensity independent from internal sound volume.

In fact a common misunderstanding is that the cabinet speaker is a subwoofer. It is not, it is used almost as a full range speaker, cut-off to 250Hz by factory standard. It is just the sound base for otherwise very flat and thin backbox speakers. Using a dedicated amp is a way to increase the cabinet volume beyond the restricted capabilities of the Spike board amp. The Speaker is underpowered and can be given a little more overall punch and that also increases bass a little.

I dont need the overwhelming bass of an external subwoofer and prefer an internal stand alone solution.