(Topic ID: 250803)

Improving Illegible schematics

By pinfixer

4 years ago


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  • 16 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by pinfixer
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    Infrasense Schematic Snip.png
    #1 4 years ago

    I'm looking for anyone who may be able to assist me with improving the clarity of some schematics. I've added a small snip for reference. This schematic is the only one known to exist for an uncommon PCB used on a Midway gun game.

    Hoping maybe someone lurking has the talent to help electronically improve the legibility of this schematic (and about 10 more).

    Infrasense Schematic Snip.pngInfrasense Schematic Snip.png
    #2 4 years ago

    Which game? Mike Pacak and/or Steve Young may have the schematic.
    How was this one scanned? With a potato? Perhaps some photoshop adjustments would provide clearer text. Start with the b/w levels.

    Do you have the PCB? You can use that to see what's what.
    The buffer on the left are easily a 7407 chip.
    The right could be a 4051 multiplexer.

    #3 4 years ago

    It's tough to enhance a copy of a copy of a copy. You'll have to fiddle with it in photoshop if you can't track down an original. But, it's not going to get a whole lot better than that.

    Can you show what an unaltered scan looks like? Usually, if the paper is yellowed, that can help somewhat.

    If that's all you have to work with, it's legible enough to see what most things are, and figure out others with some guesswork along with the PCB (assuming it has a complete masking layer with everything labeled).

    #4 4 years ago

    It is for Midnight Marauders. Mike Pacak recently sold his MM and there were no schematics according to the new owner. Todd Tuckey had one, no schematics. Steve Young has the manual for the game, but nothing more than what IPDB has and in fact maybe less. Basically everything paperwork, code, etc. IPDB has, has come to Jay through me. I was very fortunate to obtain some blueprint sized schematics for many of the assemblies and parts for this game. Those are crystal clear and will be uploaded soon to IPDB. However the unique board is the "Infrasense" board that takes the IR gun shots and converts it to a signal the Bally pinball MPU (-133) can use. This copy of a copy of a copy surfaced about 4 months ago and after talking to a great number of MM owners, there appears to be nothing better than this copy. I've asked around quite a bit and nothing thus far has ever surfaced except for this ratty copy.

    I have no experience at Photoshop, but PM me with your email address and I'll email you the .tiff and .pdf versions of the scans. ForceFlow is correct in that the yellowing of the paper has made the originals actually harder to read than the scans. There are about 10 sheets of this quality and are 11" x 17" paper. I took them to the local shop to have them scanned in at 600 dpi.

    Many of the others of the 10 are easier to read, but have a lot of black "snow" on them. I would think that photoshop may help clear that up as well. This stuff is all public domain so I'm willing to take any help where I can get it. The Infrasense board also has a parts list on another 11" x 17" sheet so yes, it is very possible to cross reference the schematic to the parts list. It's what I've been doing currently. However knowing technology can do miracles with images today I thought it was worth an ask to see if they could be improved. Also, having a clear and quickly readable copy of this schematic would really help streamline troubleshooting. There's a lot of unique things going on inside this board so it's been challenging to say the least in resurrecting failed Infrasense boards, but I'm making progress

    Perhaps one of the mods could add Midnight Marauders to the game list so I can reference this and the other thread together.

    #5 4 years ago

    Maybe recreating the schematic in KiCad or another PCB design software would better than trying to touch up a fuzzy print/scan.

    #6 4 years ago

    Useless skill number 43:

    Spend enough time reading blurry schematics and everything just makes sense. That must be a 4051 mux/demux, so pin 16 is VDD even though everything at the top is blurry, because its at the top and connected to +12v. When you see a resistor it must say R## and #.#K, and that's how you start.

    Maybe there is another pin with similar schematics that are clearer?

    #7 4 years ago

    I have some photoshop skills but the example you posted makes me think that redrawing the schematic would be a better option. To really do it right you'd redraw a portion and post before and after versions and let the forum look for mistakes. Captcha ("I am not a robot") does the same kind of thing by letting a large group of people determine what's in an image.

    I'd be willing to experiment a little to see what options might work. PM me if you're interested.

    /Mark

    #8 4 years ago

    Don't forget, there are more tricks to decipher the illegible parts of the schematics. If you cant read what IC7 is or are not sure what size resistor is connected to pin 11 in the schematics, just look at the physical board to confirm. You also have the data sheet for any IC to identify/confirm the pin numbers and function.

    #9 4 years ago

    here's the visible layer I've traced out so far on the schematic. I will likely need ID's on the parts once I get to putting the text labels in. Still have to add components and arrows - I have all those as text characters somewhere so that's going to be part of the final steps.

    pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
    #10 4 years ago

    You left out the resistors which changes the function. Are the input pins of IC7 pulled high or tied high, etc?

    Draw 1 resistor and paste where needed:

    with resistors (resized).pngwith resistors (resized).png

    Also there are 3 identical MUX/DEMUX chips but I noticed you redrew those 3 times. You could have just copied and pasted the first one over and over, but I guess with the tracing that gets tricky.

    #11 4 years ago
    Quoted from Neal_W:

    You left out the resistors which changes the function. Also there are 3 identical MUX/DEMUX chips but I noticed you redrew those 3 times. You could have just copied and pasted the first one over and over, but I guess with the tracing that gets tricky.

    That's why I said in my post "I have to add the components yet". The tracing so far is about an hour's worth of work. The component insertions will go very quickly as they're a font, and once I have one horizontal one and one vertical one rasterized with the whitespace inserted so I can avoid having to do an erasure on the main drawing layer, they will lay down extremely quickly.

    The original scan is extremely skewed at places so tracing is working out better. I'm not actually recreating the schematic in a schematic type program (If I had/knew how to use one I probably would) - I'm literally tracing over the original scan John sent me in photoshop but correcting for any deviation from 90 degrees. (I'm not even using Illustrator which would make more sense being vector based, because I'm self-taught on how to use the pen tool in photoshop 6, and it doesn't work the same way in Illustrator (at least the versions I have access to which are all old circa 2004 versions).

    I've used this exact method in the past to clean up scans of schematics and gone to Staples and done an 'engineering print' which costs about $6 but can be as cheap as $3 if it's smaller. Nothing drives me crazier than illegible schematics posted to various places, or even worse, when you order a schematic from a supplier and it's a crap printout with fold marks etc. all over it.

    I have Williams Ringer already done if anyone needs it, and a couple other games are in progress. Motivation tends to flag sometimes in this type of project but it's something I always get back to when I have roadblocks in other projects.

    #12 4 years ago

    Cool. Sounds like you have the process and tools well worked out.

    #13 4 years ago
    Quoted from slochar:

    That's why I said in my post "I have to add the components yet". The tracing so far is about an hour's worth of work. The component insertions will go very quickly as they're a font, and once I have one horizontal one and one vertical one rasterized with the whitespace inserted so I can avoid having to do an erasure on the main drawing layer, they will lay down extremely quickly.
    The original scan is extremely skewed at places so tracing is working out better. I'm not actually recreating the schematic in a schematic type program (If I had/knew how to use one I probably would) - I'm literally tracing over the original scan John sent me in photoshop but correcting for any deviation from 90 degrees. (I'm not even using Illustrator which would make more sense being vector based, because I'm self-taught on how to use the pen tool in photoshop 6, and it doesn't work the same way in Illustrator (at least the versions I have access to which are all old circa 2004 versions).
    I've used this exact method in the past to clean up scans of schematics and gone to Staples and done an 'engineering print' which costs about $6 but can be as cheap as $3 if it's smaller. Nothing drives me crazier than illegible schematics posted to various places, or even worse, when you order a schematic from a supplier and it's a crap printout with fold marks etc. all over it.
    I have Williams Ringer already done if anyone needs it, and a couple other games are in progress. Motivation tends to flag sometimes in this type of project but it's something I always get back to when I have roadblocks in other projects.

    You are doing what I was going to do, trace. I Will let you continue the good work.

    #14 4 years ago

    here's some more.... just have to add most of the caps and grounds. obviously this is a clip. Next up will be the hard part which is identifying the correct values for the components for this I will need help from someone who has the board available. There will be questionable parts I'll highlight in red and send the file to whoever can help there since I don't actually own this game.

    pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
    #15 4 years ago

    Another thing that sucks with copies of copies of copies is you start to lose or gain the junction dots. Causes the.... hrmm are those crossing over or electrically connected.

    #16 4 years ago

    You guys amaze me! slochar (any countless others) I can not say "THANK YOU" enough for taking the time to help recreate this schematic. For me it's not so much for today, but having a legible, usable schematic for the Infrasense years down the road will likely keep more of these machines from the landfill. People know the other boards inside the door, but the Infrasense scares them because it's unique. There's a pinside thread dedicated to Midnight Marauders and Jay is housing documents and code files on IPDB. Hoping if someone searches for this game years down the road that this will give them a place to start and people to reach out to help get it running.

    As for your question on the board itself, I have several Infrasense boards and would gladly assist with verifying components and values. It truly is the least I can do. PM me and I'll get you whatever you need.

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