IMDN Premium vs. SWLE (Drain Audits)

(Topic ID: 233188)

IMDN Premium vs. SWLE (Drain Audits)


By snaroff

17 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 27 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 days ago by mandelbloom
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

#1 17 days ago

Decided to glance at my "drain audits" today and was kind of shocked by the following:

IMDN Balls Played 573, Center Drains 561, Left Drains 7, Right Drains 5
SW Balls Played 324, Center Drains 192, Left Drains 82, Right Drains 50

Note that IMDN has a "stock" setup and SWLE has a modded left outlane (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-star-wars-clubmay-the-force-be-with-you/page/99#post-4437051). Even with the sumo post, the SW left outlane is BRUTAL.

Helps explain why IMDN games last a bit longer than SW games

snaroff

#2 17 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Decided to glance at my "drain audits" today and was kind of shocked by the following:
IMDN Balls Played 573, Center Drains 561, Left Drains 7, Right Drains 5
SW Balls Played 324, Center Drains 192, Left Drains 82, Right Drains 50
Note that IMDN has a "stock" setup and SWLE has a modded left outlane (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-star-wars-clubmay-the-force-be-with-you/page/99#post-4437051). Even with the sumo post, the SW left outlane is BRUTAL.
Helps explain why IMDN games last a bit longer than SW games
snaroff

Have never seen this posted before, I like that Stern games track this. Can anyone tell me when stern started keeping this info on pins. I would like to see I list of games from when this started. As far as Iron Maiden plays way more friendly than SW game and most of IMDn is played in the middle of game, I feel sometimes I forget about the left and right ramps which I love but get caught in midddle which is more safe. SW is more open and if you miss a shot more punishing to me.

#3 16 days ago
Quoted from Jackontherocks:

Have never seen this posted before, I like that Stern games track this. Can anyone tell me when stern started keeping this info on pins. I would like to see I list of games from when this started. As far as Iron Maiden plays way more friendly than SW game and most of IMDn is played in the middle of game, I feel sometimes I forget about the left and right ramps which I love but get caught in midddle which is more safe. SW is more open and if you miss a shot more punishing to me.

Not only a Stern thing, most games keep audit info.

The main reason I posted this was the really bizarre numbers for IMDN. 98% of drains are down the middle? Whoa.

SWLE & TRONLE are both 60% down the middle (which is much more balanced, obviously). TRONLE is the most balanced with Balls Played 3074, Center Drains 1894, Left Drains 660, Right Drains 520.

snaroff

#4 16 days ago

Is the flipper gap the same on both games? What are the average ball times on both games?
Either way it sounds like the out lanes on IMDN should be opened up a bit.

#5 16 days ago
Quoted from chubtoad13:

Is the flipper gap the same on both games? What are the average ball times on both games?
Either way it sounds like the out lanes on IMDN should be opened up a bit.

From the factory, the right outlane is already fully open. The left peg is in the middle.

My average ball times on IMDN are ~2x SWLE or TRONLE. Haven't measured the flipper gaps, but I believe they are all the same.

My Sterns average ~60% drains down the middle, which is fairly balanced. 98% is unusual.

I wonder if other IMDN owners are seeing the same stats as far as drains down the middle. It's possible my 98% is related to how I shoot the game.

snaroff

#6 16 days ago

I sold mine last week but I can say after moving on to AC/DC Luci, Maiden is EXTREMELY forgiving. I bet others have audits like yours.

#7 16 days ago

I think there is a glitch on the side drain calculation, mine had numbers similar to yours when I checked it a couple weeks ago.

#8 16 days ago

98% down the middle? So if you played 33, three-ball games, you’d only see a side drain twice?

I don’t own a Maiden, but in playing it and watching videos in tourneys, it drains down the sides plenty.

Not saying it’s impossible on your particular game, but if it’s on factory, it just doesn’t feel like the drains are being accurately tracked.

#9 16 days ago

Kind of thinking IMDN has a bug. I have plenty left drains, like a lot! I would say from observation, I lose more balls on the left out lane than the center, Yet Here’s mine...

IMDN PRO:
balls played - 734
Left drains - 5
Center drains - 722
Right drains - 7
15+ minute games = 26/279

SW PRO:
balls played - 1535
Left drains - 442
Center drains - 778
Right drains - 315
15+ minute games = 51/513

#10 16 days ago

Just went to check mine
left 6
center 362
right 4

Definitely a bug

#11 16 days ago
Quoted from Venom_249:

I think there is a glitch on the side drain calculation, mine had numbers similar to yours when I checked it a couple weeks ago.

As someone who programmed professionally for over 25 years, I can't imagine a glitch/bug that would cause this. These are simple/global/universal "counters". I can imagine them not being "wired up" or reset every so often, but then the 3 drain counters wouldn't add up to the "balls played" counter. Odd.

Unlike Eskaybee's recollection of plenty of left drains, my experience is more reflective of the numbers (though 98% center drains was still a standout...I was expecting 80-90%).

In any event, thanks for sharing your data. I'll ping Keith on this issue - if it's a bug, it will certainly not be hard to find!

snaroff

#12 16 days ago

This thread interests me as I would have expected that a pin would be designed so that over a significant amount of games the three drain areas would be relatively balanced. Am I missing something

#13 16 days ago

A few things come to mind. Brainstorming here:

1) It would be easy to start games and manually activate the switches and see if it is counting. Certainly wouldn’t cause any unnecessary wear.

2) Perhaps since there is a secret skill shot on the left drain, that it does not register as a “drain” until after it is first activated from a skill shot and the playfield becomes validated. In other words, if the left drain skill shot is not made, maybe there is something in the code where the switch doesn’t change status to count as a “drain”

3) Is there a counter in the audits for the revive feature on the left and right outlane switches? Maybe lighting revive is doing something similar where it is not changing the status of the switches.

#14 16 days ago
Quoted from sulli10:

This thread interests me as I would have expected that a pin would be designed so that over a significant amount of games the three drain areas would be relatively balanced. Am I missing something

From my perspective, you'd expect center drains to be more common.

The modern Stern's I have access to (SWLE/AS/TRONLE/Beatles) all drain down the center 60-65%. The right/left drains can vary dramatically...my SWLE/Beatles left outlanes are weighted heavily.

#15 16 days ago
Quoted from pinballcorpse:

A few things come to mind. Brainstorming here:
1) It would be easy to start games and manually activate the switches and see if it is counting. Certainly wouldn’t cause any unnecessary wear.
2) Perhaps since there is a secret skill shot on the left drain, that it does not register as a “drain” until after it is first activated from a skill shot and the playfield becomes validated. In other words, if the left drain skill shot is not made, maybe there is something in the code where the switch doesn’t change status to count as a “drain”
3) Is there a counter in the audits for the revive feature on the left and right outlane switches? Maybe lighting revive is doing something similar where it is not changing the status of the switches.

These are all good ideas to play with...I'll try some things and report back later.

#16 16 days ago

Another thing to think about is the “REVIVE” award. After being earned, this awards the ball back back after a side drain on either side. I wonder if these count as aide drains or not?

I’ve got plenty of side drains on Maiden. I’ll check my audits today.

#17 16 days ago
Quoted from Venom_249:

Just went to check mine
left 6
center 362
right 4
Definitely a bug

Has to be. I haven't checked my stats but the bloody left side drain is a monster on my game.

#18 16 days ago

Definitely a bug in software. I have mine setup brutal and get plenty of drains on the outlanes with or without ball saver/revive.

#19 16 days ago

The counters are definitely wonky, but it's hard to tell what's off.

I just "hand drained" 3 balls to the right...2 were properly attributed to the right and one to the center (incorrectly). In another instance, I witnessed a right drain being attributed to the left...really weird. All of these without enabling revive or the super skill shot. I just drained 3 to the left, with all 3 being preceded by the super skill shot and the left counter only incremented by 1 (the rest being attributed to the center).

So...the bottom line is the right/left/center drain counts are unfortunately meaningless. Really hard for me to understand why the heuristics would be so complex, since a ball loss event is not very complex when compared with all the other signals/timers/etc. that pinball machines manage. You'd also think that these heuristics would be part of the system software (shared between all games).

Oh well, Keith and team will figure it out For now, I'll just ignore the audits for IMDN...

snaroff

#20 16 days ago

Curious.
I wonder if there is a timer attached to the audit. Maybe the game registers the end of ball and then it looks to see if the left or right outlane has been triggered within a certain amount of time to add the audit for that side.

Did you roll the ball down each outlane or did you push the outlane switches and put the ball down the center?

#21 16 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

The counters are definitely wonky, but it's hard to tell what's off.
I just "hand drained" 3 balls to the right...2 were properly attributed to the right and one to the center (incorrectly). In another instance, I witnessed a right drain being attributed to the left...really weird. All of these without enabling revive or the super skill shot. I just drained 3 to the left, with all 3 being preceded by the super skill shot and the left counter only incremented by 1 (the rest being attributed to the center).
So...the bottom line is the right/left/center drain counts are unfortunately meaningless. Really hard for me to understand why the heuristics would be so complex, since a ball loss event is not very complex when compared with all the other signals/timers/etc. that pinball machines manage. You'd also think that these heuristics would be part of the system software (shared between all games).
Oh well, Keith and team will figure it out For now, I'll just ignore the audits for IMDN...
snaroff

I can only guess it’s not a well tested aspect of the system and doesn’t get much attention.

#22 16 days ago
Quoted from pintechev:

I can only guess it’s not a well tested aspect of the system and doesn’t get much attention.

Obviously, since it's so broken. Nevertheless, audits are really useful to help tune up a game (by adjusting the posts if a lane is too easy or brutal, for example).

#23 16 days ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Obviously, since it's so broken. Nevertheless, audits are really useful to help tune up a game (by adjusting the posts if a lane is too easy or brutal, for example).

It’s a feature I’ve never used. It’s been more empirical for me as to if I need to change a physical configuration

#24 16 days ago
Quoted from pintechev:

It’s a feature I’ve never used. It’s been more empirical for me as to if I need to change a physical configuration

Sure, but it's always nice for data & empirical to agree There are tons of settings/features that are rarely used. I imagine this will be an easy bug fix...as you said earlier, probably doesn't get much attention. Oh well...back to playing.

#25 16 days ago

My LOTR still shows I have never won the TTT multiball or started Valinor. (Pics or it didnt happen?!? - have it documented on camera ages ago....somewhere)

#26 11 days ago

Looks like the new 1.06 update (just released) fixes the left/right drain system audits

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