which is what a lot of them are around here on route are/were. They were all over the place when the game was released. If it didn't get around that bend. There was 0% chance you could save it. Really helped with the coin box tho.

A lot of games came this way from the factory, actually. I think it's Pinball Life that sold or sells a mod to make it so that it doesn't happen that way, which became a factory mod on the later machines, which is probably how yours is set up. I am okay with it either doing a straight drain or not, mine is a later run so it can be saved with proper nudging.

And to be fair here, I don't know why *anyone* is calling Iron Man deep. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I remind you - Iron Man is my favorite game - but just because DODMB is impossible to reach doesn't make it "deep." Otherwise, you could say that IJ4 is a ridiculously "deep" game too because it takes forever to finish it. IM works as well as it does because the rules that it has fit perfectly with the way the machine purposely tries kicking your butt. If it was super deep like LOTR or TSPP, that style of play wouldn't work, but I know a number of people who truly do loathe IM because it is exactly the opposite of what they play games for. That's fine - if we all liked the same pins, we would all only have the same one.

Who said that?

TF sucks Neo. :p IM is better.

I think IM is so much about ball control, with the magnets sending the ball out of control, especially when shooting the Iron Monger to get him down and enable the jackpot shot up the center spinner. Careful shooting to the outside of the Iron Monger is necessary to reduce the risk followed by a good reward when you make that satisfying shot up the middle for jackpot makes the game challenging. I have my IM set up so you must make the center spinner shot to enable the Iron Monger mode after spelling the Iron Monger lights by shooting the spinner and loops, making it more challenging. The game definitely separates the men from the boys, flailing away will definitely mean a short game for sure with those outlanes designed to suck the ball out. IM makes a really good tournament game IMHO.

That was a response to these two quotes:

IM wasn't made to be deep, and just because it has an unobtainum goal doesn't make it so. Like I said, if that was all that we were looking for, then IJ4 would be one of the deepest games ever, instead of a wood-chopping fest.

A *huge* part of IM's beauty is in it's simplicity. You are NEVER far from starting something or doing exactly what you want to do, but you are *always* in danger of losing it. To me, that's the entirety of the rush of it - you start the game less than 10 shots away from starting all five (six, if you include Bogey) or the main "modes" of the game, in fact, if I'm not mistaken including starting bogey you only need to hit 27 shots to start everything at least once (33 if you include knocking Monger back down) in the game.

You obviously still need to do something after you start those, but really, 27 shots is what it takes to get to DOD. I can't think of any other game that requires so little to get to a major mode as IM does, especially because the majority of those shots are different ones that are almost always available to shoot (unlike, say a mode based game that locks you out until you requalify stuff). To me, the beauty of IM is that all 27 of those shots can be safe if you're playing perfectly, but you're never going to do that, and *any* miss with those puts you in serious danger of losing the ball. It makes a correct series of shots an amazing rush, and it makes you pay for a slight error.

But let's drop the word "deep" from the conversation. I honestly, can't think of many DMD era titles that are shallower than it is. If that's what you play for, it's a legitimate gripe. If you play for the rush, it's the best game period I think.

Dan, I certainly agree IM isn't deep. But I think you were reading too much into those quotes. They were making a point with regard to comparisons to other (non DMD) games, and that even a shallow rules pin can be "deep enough" when paired with the right layout.

We aren't arguing about IM being a deep pin.

So what is the consensus price on an IM without mods? $5500? 6?

I paid 5k for a stock one, great condition, one minor scratch on left side and around 2800 plays on it. I think I got lucky to get it at that.

I traded for mine, but I put the value right at the upper end of the range that you quote above.

IM doesn't suck, but I wouldn't want to own it either. It is a great route / tournament game tho. Fast and simple, which is ideal for both.

TF is a grinders game. Long, hard and frustrating. I can see why some don't like it. But in a collection with a lot of diversity, and a lot of early SS/EM games. I already have a lot of games with extremely short ball times. So having 2 grinder games Lotr/TF, breaks it up a bit.

It would be nice (I know) pie in the sky, but if some of the longer game or any game had alternate rules. I recall JD had a rule where you start out in Multiball all the time or something.

But if there was a base game like SM or XM base rules like they are now. But if there was an option for "quick play" with rules more like IM where you could play for 5 minutes and get to the end with a few dozen quick shots rather than hundreds of shots.

That's what she said.

Sorry couldn't resist.

Batman forever also has this, where you have novice or normal modes to pick from at the beginning of the game. Novice you get unlimited balls for 2 min. But after the 2 min, your on your last ball no matter what.

Ok. I'm feeling generous. I'll let my unique IM go for the low low price of $15,000.

Takers?