(Topic ID: 291655)

The streamer grievance thread

By swampfire

3 years ago


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#65 3 years ago

This is some thing I think about when I write about a game. How do I contribute to the community with an opinion? This isn’t some sort of a purity test, it’s a matter of how do I stay true to the game that I love, myself and my fellow pinheads?

When I watch his videos, I believe that this is who he is. I also believe that his intentions are not to be overly pessimistic. But he is also frustrated because he knows that things can be done better. It’s a basic conflict between his expectations and business decisions that are made without his desired outcomes. Are these expectations unwarranted? That’s a book right there... But I can also say that his respective, especially as a tech (btw, is he a real tech? I have no idea. But for the sake of this post, I will assume he is) is not the same as most pinheads because he sees the effect of those decisions. He has to fix what doesn’t work because of those choices. It is conflicting for many when businesses will do what they can to be profitable. Some people called cutting corners, Other people will call it a matter of survivability.

Most recreational end-users in the pinball community do not realize how precarious the pinball business is. Most collectors just want to play pinball. The amount of talent, resources, funds and RISK is staggering. Making pinball games is not an easy task and there are many things that can go wrong. Not too long ago, Stern closed at stores at the end of the year. Fortunately some holiday magic happened and an investor was found. That’s right, for a while. For a few brief weeks. There was no one in the world making pinball. This wasn’t too long ago. Jersey Jack nearly went out of business and was saved by another investor recently as well. There are numerous other examples of less successful stories out there. Interestingly enough, Spooky has made a splash but with a much different business plan. Small production runs in slow growth with planned incremental steps that bring more and more of the entire production process and house have made a real difference. Companies like Stern cannot survive if their production line stops. The assembly line is too large and employees to many people. If the sharks stop swimming, it sinks to the bottom of the floor of the ocean. Fortunately, fortunes for the pinball industry are different than they were just a few years ago.

Cultural and business shifts have moved from sales that were almost 100% to distributors and operators to a much higher percentage of collectors and home players. The expectations of these two communities are vastly different. Simply put, if your game doesn’t work for an operator, they can’t put food on their table. You can’t pay your bills. And the distributors that are trying to do the same will fail as well. The home collector has a much different approach. They are looking for fun not a revenue stream and a means to make a living. Just approach any technician or operator on site fixing a game and ask him a question. You can feel the other distain and hate from many of them as you think that what they’re doing is fun while they are taking their work seriously. Please consider this. They’re not being rude. You are being rude by interrupting the, while they fix the game that someone like me and you broke by using it. Give them space, they don’t have time to waste.

I personally invite every pinball collector and player (all the way from the museum curators to the tourney rats who look for any reason to complain about a game that didn’t do them right...) out there to take at least one of their games and put them at their local corner bar. The experience is eye-opening. When you work as a tech, and a game goes down, it needs to get fixed. Now. Depending on your location, you may lose it after the yelling stops. Or it will just sit there and take up space because someone doesn’t really care about it. People spilled beer all over it, cover their initials into the side of it, all sorts of things happen. Queen doors get kicked in. And of course those mechanisms that take the money and always jam up. This is something that I never hear collectors talk about. Street locations and the relationships that are formed with those locations that are looking to make money with pinball. Pat Lawlor talks about this quite a bit during his original podcast with Clay Harrell. They have some audio from him from Chicago expo from years ago and he directly addresses why twilight zone was a failure. Twilight zone is my favorite game of all time and to hear him talk about his own creation like this is fascinating. It also gives you a great deal of insight into the mind of people who make pinball. Check it out here: http://www.pinrepair.com/topcast/past.php

Now how many collectors out there who love to play pinball and have no idea how to fix the games that they collect, hmmmmmmmm? Sometimes a fix is very easy to see and deal with. See that loose bolt, tighten it! At the same time, how many collectors get in brand new game out of the box. What do they do? They play it! They can’t help themselves, they’re like a little kid in the candy store who is just gotten the biggest gobstopper they’ve ever seen in their entire life. It doesn’t occur to them that this game may need some maintenance before the first ball is plunged in it. Most operators I know get a game out of the box before they play a single game they go through the top and the bottom of the entire game and they tighten all the loose screws and nuts they can find. Others have friends come on over and play the game before it is released into the wild so they can find out what is wrong with anything BEFORE they get those calls. And trust me, those gremlins... they’re there. I have never seen a new game come out of the box that didn’t have issues like this. Quality control on a game with thousands of parts is not an easy thing to do. There are many variables even from one copy of a game to the next. It’s a level of seriousness that most collectors never see. Because all they see is what the game can do for them. Not anyone else.

So when you have someone who might know better and doesn’t have the patience for nonsense, it can come off as pessimistic. But if you lived in a world where the thing that you loved caused you a lot of pain and frustration. Because you knew better.... Your point of view might be different as well. Empathetically, it can be difficult to witness. But my impression of this man is that he’s not doing it just to complain, or bitch and moan. He’s telling it as it is from his own point of view. Your choice is, you can take it or leave it, but he’s not doing it without reason. He might just be doing it for his own therapeutic reasons. Cathartic venting works!

I will admit to the fact that I have them too. My recent review of jersey jacks Guns N’ Roses got a lot of down votes because I started out by stating that I wasn’t a fan of Guns N’ Roses. It’s true. I don’t care for their music and while times of changed, Iused to really have a strong dislike for Axl. Slash and Duff are great, but I couldn’t get past the childish rankings of lil’ red. That and I just don’t care for the theme and the music and I am up front about it. Some people didn’t like it. oh well. That particular game (just like all the other Jjp games) has raised the bar on the theater the pinball can bring to the game. The premium and limited edition versions of this game are absolutely stellar pieces of technology. Jersey Jack also has a long history of technical failures that keep many operators from buying their games and putting them on location. Why do you think you see so many stern pros out on the street? They work. And they don’t go down and stay down for long periods of time. They keep making money on the street. That is what they are designed to do and for the most part, that’s what they do.

People have their points of view and personalities. Sometimes these points of view and or personalities conflict. It’s all part of the human equation. Consider your perspective in relation to pinball. Understand his. Or not. If it makes you feel better, there are talking heads I ignore as well. And it isn’t necessarily for their information, it’s because I can’t abide their nonsense. I get it. I do it too. And more than anything else, it’s like The Dude said: “Yeah, well that's just like... you're opinion man.”

I’m gonna go play some pinball now... and maybe find a game I haven’t played and write a review. Maybe even change my mind about a game and update an old piece of information.

Be well.

#111 3 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I think it comes down to this...
Today's NIB games are now in the crazy town price range $6k - $10k+. Unless you are very rich or don't care about debt you are going to question what you are getting in a pinball machine that costs $6k - $10k+. If someone reviews a game and doesn't question it's value (features, toys, code, etc) then that's a red flag in my opinion. At some point people have to ask themselves "What the hell I'm I paying thousands of dollars for". Is it just a cabinet and some thin pieces of metal? I'm glad there's people in this community like Cary and Kaneda that are not afraid to call out and question manufacture decisions when it comes to included features, the quality of them, and how they are used (or not used) with code.
If a reviewer doesn't question price / value, and never provides criticism then that's not a professional review, it's an influencer / fanboy style review that lacks integrity.

I disagree with this comment for the reasons that making a pinball game is not a cheap or a simple matter. A big part of the reason why stern nearly died is that they listened to the voices that would say I want it all and I want it for less. This downward spiral nearly cost us all pinball production from any company at all.

If you want wally world prices. go to walmart. Stern even tried to make the "home models" without a coin door and other "features. Remember how that went? So if pinball is to survive in today's economic environment, it will cost more. It is not going to go down in price any time soon if not, ever. It costs money to make stuff. And to do so at the expense of the people who make their living at making these awesome toys is short sighted and selfish.

If you don't want to spend money on pinball, you will have to spend time on games that need love or you are going to get lucky. And you can't buy back time. And luck is a fickle bitch.

So go play pinball on location. rent it out, a game at a time. Quit complaining that it isn't $.50 anymore. Those days are gone. Buy an old game and give it some love. Buy a new game if that is what you want. The entrance fee for a new game is at least $6500.-. $7500.- new. Want it for less, those days are gone.

I am not a wealthy man. But I have so many games now that I trade them like kids trade baseball cards. I also have been collecting for 20 years. This may not be your case, but this is the market we are in today. Heck, if you are in my neighborhood, shoot me a message and I'll show you around or play a few with you at my place. I am happy to share. I can do that. But I also know enough about pinball to realize that it is a more fragile concept than most people care to realize. I am grateful for every new game coming out.

If this is something that you are not willing to pay for, I get it. If you are not able to afford it. I get it. I learned how to fix games because I could not afford to and have yet to buy a brand new game out of the box. Ever. 6-10 k is crazy town? OK, how about everything else going up in price?

But the whole "it isn't cheap enough for me" argument is getting old. Do you want to try pinochle? I heard you can play that for cheap... And I hate that answer. But I don't have another one for this mindset. In so many directions, on so many levels.

And I'm out like a trout...

#206 3 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I don't expect prices to go down. What I do expect as a customer is for a game that cost $6500 - $9000+ to be backed up with multiple features, toys, great code, etc. I'm not paying thousands of dollars for a cabinet and a couple basic orbits and ramps just because its fun.
If fun factor alone trumped features then Ford would be charging $100k for a Mustang GT but they don't. Why? The features don't justify the price at that price level. That's partially what has happened with modern pinball machine pricing. That's how you get to basic toppers costing $500 - $1k+ that look like lawn ornaments. None of what I said is about not being able to afford modern pins (I've bought a decent number of them) but rather simply wanting value (features, toys, code, build quality, etc) when dropping $6500 - $9k+ on a pinball machine of all things.
A LOTR in 2003 was around $3500 NIB. In 2021 dollars that just over $5k. Are pinball buyers getting similar featured games for $5k in 2021? No, but that should probably be expected as Stern almost went out of business 12 - 15 years ago. How about at current pro price of around $6500? No. To get a game with similar features as LOTR you now need to pay $7500+ for a premium model and the game you get doesn't have direct print artwork, doesn't have a lock down bar, doesn't have a traditional head lock, the playfield may have issues, the head itself is made out of 50% metal, etc. The sad thing is those last few items are all cost cutting decisions.
Sorry for the rant lol.

I want to be clear about this. I will do what I can to save money. Especially on larger purchases.

I am also not interested in berating other people unless their intent or actions are entering the realm of malicious. Neither your or Cary's actions fall under this category for me. Rather it is an expression of pain being felt.

Why isn't this better?

Why isn't this less expensive?

Why isn't this right?

These are honest and concerned questions, but they are so wide in their scope that the answers are not going to be short. And whether they are short or not, they may not be satisfactory to the person asking the question. I will do my best to learn as much as I can about pinball. I get to know as many people in as many aspects of this industry as I can. Pinside and the user end is one of those aspects. I spoke about operators earlier. There are other aspects in relation to production, marketing, distribution, shipping, creation, upkeep and even more (parts, mods, tournaments, locations...). I can also tell you that many decisions are made for more than cost cutting decisions. Metal heads for example, do not get damaged as easily in shipping. When I went to Spooky a few years ago, Charlie specifically told me about how many pinball heads were damaged in shipping. And it isn't something easily missed. He lost a lot of money because of shipping damage and he completely redeisgned his packing because of it. Stern reduced the length of their playfields (look at WPT and compare it to a stern of today...) to ship boxes in smaller containers so they could ship more games overseas. I had no idea about these issues until I went to the source.

When I start to put dollar signs on things that I know little about, I usually don't care. How much is it? Can I afford it? Is haggling part of the deal? That's about it for me. Sometimes amazon.com is just to damn convenient for me to worry about how much it costs. I just want the damn thing on my front porch tomorrow! That is the mindset of most consumers. They consume and can't be bothered with the details. I love pinball, so I love the details. If I have come across as self righteous, it is not my intent. My intent is to educate and share as much as I can. If you want to know more, go for it! You can go to Chicago Expo (if it happens this year) and take tours, meet the industry players and maybe even a few pinball heroes. There are other resources as well. Books, sites and forums like this are invaluable. But nothing beats personal experience. I do my best not to be "more static" and hope that this will make more sense through conversation. I am happy to share what I can about pinball with others. If I can help, I will.

Feel free to pm me. And if you are ever in the Denver area, keep me informed. I am happy to meet at a location or have you check some of the games in my home.

Be well.

c2s

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