Twin Cities, MN
I buy the large tub of it. 
(Topic ID: 81140)
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Royal Guard
Gottlieb, 1968
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Quoted from DirtFlipper:I buy the large tub of it.
i'm going to the next time... darn useful stuff, that goop... 
before shot of credit wheel when taking apart replay unit... spider mount came off the gear shaft easier than on the match unit (yay!)... sadly, however, the torsion spring escaped me upon removal, so the number of turns on that is going to be guesswork...
Quoted from 0geist0:Wow, I can't believe it didn't take the numbers off. Looks great
thanks...
nope, no fear for loss of numbers at all... just goop in large quantities and scrub around with the toothbrush... you can literally watch the dirt come off... very cool and very easy... i like things that are very cool and very easy... 
another h/t to dirtflipper... him and stashy are giving quality "cleaning education" to me in this thread...
i put a coat of wax on it too to give it a bit of shine...
edit: 
how dare pinside convert "no fear" to the name of a new-fangled pin in the em hangout!!!
On those return springs, usually around 6 winds will do it. When I unhook it from the post, I try to just let it unwind counter-clockwise slightly to then rest against the max replay post. That prevents it from unwinding completely.
Quoted from DirtFlipper:On those return springs, usually around 6 winds will do it. When I unhook it from the post, I try to just let it unwind counter-clockwise slightly to then rest against the max replay post. That prevents it from unwinding completely.
Man, that seems like a lot of turns to me. I've never had one go past more than three.
Quoted from DirtFlipper:On those return springs, usually around 6 winds will do it. When I unhook it from the post, I try to just let it unwind counter-clockwise slightly to then rest against the max replay post. That prevents it from unwinding completely.
cool... i'll remember that trick for next time... i wasn't really paying close enough attention, and ZING that sucker unwound...
Québec, QC
Awesome work.
I skipped through the whole thread but I'm not sure I caught everything... can you summarize?
-Brasso for brass parts (rivets, bell, what else?) I don't think I have any brass parts in my 70's Gottliebs, would I?
-I saw an ultrasonic thing in there
-Tumbler for bolts
-Magic eraser/Water or Goop for score reels
-What about the other metal parts? Wheel buffer?
Quoted from PhilGreg:I skipped through the whole thread but I'm not sure I caught everything... can you summarize?
Add in Beer too.
Quoted from PhilGreg:Awesome work.
I skipped through the whole thread but I'm not sure I caught everything... can you summarize?
-Brasso for brass parts (rivets, bell, what else?) I don't think I have any brass parts in my 70's Gottliebs, would I?
-I saw an ultrasonic thing in there
-Tumbler for bolts
-Magic eraser/Water or Goop for score reels
-What about the other metal parts? Wheel buffer?
thanks man...
yup, was planning on doing a summary once i finished everything (which is gonna be soon!)... but real quick answers...
- you have rivets... i used mothers on the bells...
- ultrasonic thing to clean stuff... i just used it for screws and springs and stuff like that on this one... i didn't use it on the bigger parts, i had never used the zep before and i wasn't sure how aggressive it was... those i sprayed/soaked/scrubbed with toothbrush... i think i will try the ultrasonic with zep when i get to the cabinet parts, unless df advises otherwise...
- yup tumbler for bolts... i also ended up tumbling the smaller parts for the replay unit... that worked well...
- no magic eraser on score reels! only on credit wheel... goop on both...
- other metal parts were "human buffer"...
Quoted from ccotenj:i can see the light at the end of the tunnel...
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Holy moly! Human buffer? So microfiber cloth + [some product] + human buffer, right?
Ok ok, I'll hold off until the end if you're planning to give a summary then. I'm 6 months away from my machines anyway... I ordered some old score reels I have no use for in the meantime, I'm so looking forward to cleaning things up
Quoted from PhilGreg:Holy moly! Human buffer? So microfiber cloth + [some product] + human buffer, right?
Ok ok, I'll hold off until the end if you're planning to give a summary then. I'm 6 months away from my machines anyway... I ordered some old score reels I have no use for in the meantime, I'm so looking forward to cleaning things up
mothers mag and aluminum polish is magic stuff... it really brings the shine up on these parts without much effort at all... rub it on, polish it off... only "hard" part is having the patience to get in the nooks and crannies...
i wish there was a magic polish that you could drop the part in and pull it out and it would shine.
mothers is the cats meow. on most parts there are to many nooks and crannies my fingers hurt just thinking about doing a replay unit.
nice work, you'll need sun glasses on every time you pull the back door off.
just a tip.
i drop the part into a jug of vinegar for about 5-10 min.
the will soften or remove most of the tarnish and will make polishing go much faster.
Quoted from boilerman:gottlieb score reel ink is very easy to remove. i have tried a lot of things over the years but the best thing is turtle wax chrome polish. it will whiten up the reel without removing the number ink.
Crazy, really. It will remove rust, but won't remove the black numbers from the decagon reels! Just breathing on them usually does. My late friend "Big Dave", once told me he cleaned the score reels on his "Flip A Card" with Castrol "Super Clean"! He said it didn't remove the numbers. I still haven't tried this, but please- I don't recommend you do either! That stuff will almost remove your skin, at least it would until they changed the formula.
super clean i have seen remove paint from the side of the cabinet.
chome polish (turtle wax the only one i have tried) is just like tooth paste, it is very gentle
if you wax the reels first you seal in the ink then you can spray super clean on the inside to remove to carbon dust without removing the ink.
that is what i do. clean the face with turtle wax chrome polish then wax the face, the clean the inside with simple green, dry, rewax
Quoted from boilerman:i wish there was a magic polish that you could drop the part in and pull it out and it would shine.
mothers is the cats meow. on most parts there are to many nooks and crannies my fingers hurt just thinking about doing a replay unit.
nice work, you'll need sun glasses on every time you pull the back door off.
just a tip.
i drop the part into a jug of vinegar for about 5-10 min.
the will soften or remove most of the tarnish and will make polishing go much faster.
you and me both... digging way back in my memory bank, i seem to remember my mother used to use some stuff to polish silver that worked similar to that... basically dip it in and wipe it off...
yea, it's a pita to get the little places (the relay brackets were a real thrill to polish too)... on the replay unit, i gave everything a good clean with zep first... i gave the levers and pawls a hand polish on the easily reachable places, then tossed them in the tumbler to finish them up, since i had to tumble the springs and stuff anyway... that worked out well, they took awhile but saved me a lot of patience work (and finger pain!)...
Quoted from boilerman:super clean i have seen remove paint from the side of the cabinet.
chome polish (turtle wax the only one i have tried) is just like tooth paste, it is very gentle
if you wax the reels first you seal in the ink then you can spray super clean on the inside to remove to carbon dust without removing the ink.
that is what i do. clean the face with turtle wax chrome polish then wax the face, the clean the inside with simple green, dry, rewax
another tip for me to add to my list... thanks man...
i never even considered using the turtle wax stuff... since i've used it to remove some pretty nasty crud off of zinc parts, i just assumed it would destroy a score wheel...
two things i should note:
1) you can leave the parts in the zep for a long time... the bottom part of the replay unit was very similar to the top score reel shelf, pitted pretty badly... i decided to experiment, and left it soaking for quite awhile (occasionally giving it a scrub with a toothbrush) and was able to get it looking better than anticipated... i should have done this with the shelf, but it is too late now, because...
2) once you have given a part a bath and then polished it with mothers, a second long bath in zep turns the finish a bit "silvery" (likely eats away some of the bronzy part? dunno...)... fortunately, i only tried this on a small area, and it may be that i just left it in there too long...
Quoted from DirtFlipper:On those return springs, usually around 6 winds will do it. When I unhook it from the post, I try to just let it unwind counter-clockwise slightly to then rest against the max replay post. That prevents it from unwinding completely.
Quoted from EMsInKC:Man, that seems like a lot of turns to me. I've never had one go past more than three.
4 winds proved to be the magic number... 5 caused just a bit of binding... 3 and it was a bit sloppy... 4 gave a nice "snappy" movement...
Quoted from ccotenj:4 winds proved to be the magic number... 5 caused just a bit of binding... 3 and it was a bit sloppy... 4 gave a nice "snappy" movement...
4 is good. Too many stepper units in my head, man. 6-7 turns on a 100K stepper (the large ones used on woodrails).
Quoted from DirtFlipper:4 is good. Too many stepper units in my head, man. 6-7 turns on a 100K stepper (the large ones used on woodrails).
i have a hard enough time remembering information about the machine i'm actually working on, let alone dozens of other types... i believe that 3 would have worked, but 4 seems "just right" for this one...
short brag (which hopefully the pinball gods don't punish me for 
)... i was rather proud of myself that i was able to put the replay unit back together without referring back to the pictures... all the time and effort you guys have put into teaching me is starting to pay off...
Quoted from ccotenj:it always amazes me how white they were when they were new...
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That's the yellowing of the lacquer that occurs over time, esp. from UV, but just exposed to weathering! (smoke, etc. doesn't help either!)
Quoted from stashyboy:That's the yellowing of the lacquer that occurs over time, esp. from UV, but just exposed to weathering! (smoke, etc. doesn't help either!)
well, i'm pretty weathered after 50 years, so it doesn't really look all that bad, considering...
thanks guys... i'm glad i did it... it was fun and i learned some things... and it sure do look purty...
Quoted from Shoot_Again:Shiny is better even if it was not broken...
sure is... plus it'll never have to rebuilt again in my lifetime... short of a mechanical failure, i'll never get to look at it unless i have to change a bulb...
it was the "not broken" part that concerned me... early on in this thread, someone commented about "rule 1 of ems: if its not broke, don't fix it"... when i pushed the button and the credit wheel decremented, the score reels reset, it served a ball and the score motor stopped running, i breathed a pretty healthy sigh of relief...
Quoted from jgreene:Old EM Gottliebs were built like tanks.
yea they are... i had the one grommet casualty and i replaced all the coil sleeves... other than that, all it took was labor and elbow grease and everything is basically as good as new... other than some grooving on the 0-9 disk, there's basically no wear on the parts...
Quoted from DirtFlipper:Awesome job!
i don't know whether to thank you or curse you for leading me down this road... either way, i owe you a beer or two someday... 
I always knew you were da man, and you are da man Chris!
Great clean job on all those parts!
PS. Still waiting for you to come over and help me with mine........beer on standby.
Ken
Quoted from Garrett:The title of the thread and the end result....
Great work!
yea, little did i know the path i was about to go down...
Ah, but you're just getting warmed up. There's still all the cabinet hardware, the score motor board hardware, and the playfield hardware (top and underside) left to do.
Actually, the super shine part is nice (although I only do it for certain parts or special games any more), but the main benefit for going through and rebuilding everything is being able to inspect it all, and correct/prevent all issues in a systematic and methodical manner up front. If it's all covered in dirt and grime, it's harder to see the fatigue and wear on the parts. Going through everything in detail may seem like a lot of work (OK, it is), but can save time in the long run because it's just a thorough pass done once, rather than chasing problems that keep cropping up here and there. Plus, there's the thrill of powering up a game for the very first time after having torn it all apart and put it back together.
Quoted from DirtFlipper:Ah, but you're just getting warmed up. There's still all the cabinet hardware, the score motor board hardware, and the playfield hardware (top and underside) left to do.
i cannot lie... i took a look inside last night when we got home from dinner and started to make a plan of attack... 
Quoted from DirtFlipper:Actually, the super shine part is nice (although I only do it for certain parts or special games any more), but the main benefit for going through and rebuilding everything is being able to inspect it all, and correct/prevent all issues in a systematic and methodical manner up front. If it's all covered in dirt and grime, it's harder to see the fatigue and wear on the parts. Going through everything in detail may seem like a lot of work (OK, it is), but can save time in the long run because it's just a thorough pass done once, rather than chasing problems that keep cropping up here and there.
point well taken... i'm not really sure how much time i spent over 3 weeks doing this, but having read virtually every em tech thread here, i know that others have spent even more time chasing down a problem that likely would have been found if a full r&r had been done up front... plus as noted earlier, once something like this is done, it should be pretty much "good forever" (i hope i don't regret saying that)...
i'd add that it is a good exercise for relative rookies such as myself, for a couple reasons... first off, it makes you take apart and put together scary looking things and teaches you that they aren't THAT scary after all... secondly, you learn what parts/assemblies/switches are "supposed to look like and how they are supposed to work", which aids in future troubleshooting, rather than just staring into the guts of the machine with a blank look on your face...
it was a lot of work... but given the end result and what i learned along the way, it was worth every minute... that being said, i doubt every machine will get the mothers treatment...
Quoted from DirtFlipper:Plus, there's the thrill of powering up a game for the very first time after having torn it all apart and put it back together.
this cannot be understated... i got a HUGE feeling of accomplishment when i pushed the button and everything worked... HUGE...
i wasn't too worried about having to fix it if i had broken something, since you guys would have helped me fix it... but it is hard to beat that feeling of having done everything "right"...
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:I always knew you were da man, and you are da man Chris!
Great clean job on all those parts!
PS. Still waiting for you to come over and help me with mine........beer on standby.
Ken
^^ Ditto^^
Nice work,are your fingerprints worn off yet?
Quoted from Pin-it:^^ Ditto^^
Nice work,are your fingerprints worn off yet?
ain't much left of them... hey, this makes a life of crime available to me now... 
Quoted from slawnski:Wow! Nice job!
thanks...
summary post... if anyone sees something missing or wrong, please chime in...
first, don't be afraid... nothing about this is hard... and there are enough people here to help if you get stuck...
cleaning tips:
1) brasso is the bomb for cleaning rivets on bakelite disks... degrease the disk first (i used mean green)... place a small dab of brasso on a rag, and rub it around the rivets... turn the rag, and polish it off... note: keep an eye on alignment marks you may have made on the disk, brasso (and degreaser) will remove them... edit: it has been pointed out that mothers works on the rivets as well, and that there is no need to mark the disks...
2) zep heavy duty orange degreaser and mother's mag and aluminum polish works very well for cleaning and polishing "bronzy" gottlieb parts... have a LARGE supply of rags handy...
3) decagon score reels can be cleaned with goop and a toothbrush... gop the goop on, and swirl around with a toothbrush to get clean... this works both on the printed ink side and the interior of the wheel... i also gave them a good coat of wax...
other wheel cleaning suggestions included: soap/water, novus, turtle wax chrome polish...
4) credit wheel can be cleaned with goop as well... same procedure... difficult stains can be removed with magic eraser and water, although that was not necessary in this case... again, i waxed it when done...
another suggestion: novus...
5) parts can be left in the zep for a long time without damaging the finish... however, do not give them a zep bath after you have polished them, i had some "silvering" of the finish on the area i tried this...
6) a few days in a tumbler will bring the head bolts back to a new looking condition... i got nowhere attempting to polish those by hand...
7) for "small parts", it is much easier to let a tumbler polish out the nooks and crannies... on the replay unit, i gave the levers/pawls a quick hand polish, then tumbled them... takes some time, but saves fingers... i also tumbled stuff like springs, plungers, screws, etc...
mechanical tips... still in progress...
these are things that most people already know (and have been written about in the various guides available), but they were specifically needed in this project...
edit: df pointed out something in a later post that bears repeating here... take the board out of the backbox and lay it flat on its face... while you CAN do this with it in place, it is much easier to work on when it is out and on a flat surface... i should have done this right away, rather than after i had already gotten the relays done...
0) go ahead and replace every coil sleeve you take out... i know that they can be re-used in a lot of cases, but you've got the thing apart and a sleeve is cheap...
1) relay switches that have jumpered together switches are difficult to get back in the armature... after experimenting, i found that if you get the "triangled" lock-in switch in FIRST, the rest of it goes much easier... those with good soldering skills may find it easier to simply desolder the jumper and resolder it when done...
2) the dreaded shoulder bolt: i got it out of both mechs unscathed... as others have said, remove the nut on the back first... then turn the bolt very carefully, applying firm and consistent pressure (but not whaling on it)... once it starts to move, it will move freely until it gets close to the end (at least both of these did)... when you get to the last few threads of the bolt going through the frame, it stiffens up slightly and again, firm consistent pressure did the trick... the temptation to turn "really hard" is great; resist that temptation... i very lightly greased this area on reassembly...
3) decagon score reels are approximately 42,976 times easier to rebuild on the bench than they are in the machine... i'll never attempt to do one in the machine again... take a few minutes and desolder the coil and remove the switches, it is time well spent... the plunger part goes together SO much easier when you aren't trying to contort it into a strange position and praying to the pinball gods that it will eventually snap in... edit: another note... when putting it back in the machine, i now find it easier put the whole thing together (board and all) and THEN put the eos switch in... the switch goes in easily enough this way, and it's easier to get the rest of the assembly done when the frame isn't tethered to the machine by that switch...
4) if the machine has a score reel shelf that has the light bar with the 259 bulbs (bar is grommeted into place), it is much easier to desolder the light bar from the light board, rather than desoldering the light bar itself...
5) when removing the torsion spring from the gear on the replay unit, place the removed end against the max credit stud to keep it from unwinding before you are ready...
thanks go out to all who have posted help not only in this thread, but in various threads on pinside, as well as various other websites... i woulda been sol without help from others...
special thanks to dirtflipper and stashyboy for the detailed assistance, as well as providing motivation and inspiration... also to pin-it, who has patiently guided me for the last year as i go from "novice" to "apprentice"...
hopefully all who helped on this part will see me through the rest of the machine as well...
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