The supply items were available at higher prices than today but not bad. It was the game specific stuff that was out of site, if you could get it. Plastic sets were over $350 a set as high as $600 (if you could find them). Translites were over $300 up to $500 (again, if you could find them). One that I remember well was Addams Family ramps were over $600 and the Whirlpool ramp for Whitewater was $350. WPC ASIC or WPC95 A/V ASIC chips...forget about them. You couldn't find them and if you did they were $300 or more. Meanwhile there was a pallet of 8000 of each one of them sitting in Bloomington, IL for 9 years.

Almost all Williams/Bally game specific were astronomical in price.

Why? It seems tame enough to me. Remarkably it is staying in relative topic mode in that it reflects the history and current situation of IPB and others related.

I miss Pinlizard.

Nothing except Rick (it's not really Rick it's Matt and Planetary Pinball) or Wayne cannot use the tooling which was bought by IPB and subsequently.....

PPB nor Wayne can do anything related to Capcom pinball.

There are many things that Gene could not do which PPB can do, like collect a fee from a vendor to make licensed products and Rick can ALLOW a vendor to manufacture parts and sell them directly to the market (and collect the fee). Basically Gene had the same thing that PPB can arrange with a part manufacturer/vendor but Gene got it from WEG/WMS instead of PPB.

Gene has USE of the license whereas PPB has CONTROL of the license. WEG/WMS (Scientific Gaming) OWN the license. To understand it is sorta like those pictures you stare at and eventually see another image. Once you see the image you can always understand how to see it. Once you understand the license triangle you understand how it works with those three entities.

....sounds like a job for Mirco.

The biggest problems back then was not cosmetic stuff but functional items like ramps. My TAF ramp was beat to hell, had a hole blown it, cracks, etc. It was literally held together with super glue and packing tape. Back then TAF was a $1,600 to $1,800 game and the ramp was $500+. The great thing was that if you bought a NOS ramp it stood a good chance of failing again soon in the typical locations.

I got a clear ramp from Pinball Inc. when they first started producing them, picked it up from James in person in Atlanta (his original shop). He made the ramps stronger and gave you a choice (original smoked or clear). I still have the TAF and have put well over 10,000 games on it. The ramp is basically still perfect.

The dark days no (or hyper expensive):
Ramps
Plastics
WH2O boulders and green targets
Cabinet art
Playfields
TAF vault bases
MM dragon wings
Rudy eye lids
Etc, etc, etc.

I think the ball trough patent is US 5,358,243. It expired last September. Not sure about the split-ramp deflector status.

We all have things done right and all done things wrong, but overall I think Gene is getting his just desert via the court process. James has told what he can. The analogy is plenty sufficient to get the point across. If you have celebrated victory, then you have celebrated someone else's failure -- so I wouldn't be so judgmental.

Bryan. Is there something we need to know about the cheese pump?

Build a remake with original parts!

Does anyone else have the Alvin G rights now?

...

I see both sides of this. On one hand, I appreciate what Gene started with. If it wasn't for his interest, who would have known what would have ever happened with the Alvin G / Capcom / Williams rights? He did get that stuff moving one way or another. I can't imagine BBB getting remade in the limited quantities that it did without Gene's direct involvement with that project.

At the end of the day, whatever is going on, Gene has etched his name in the history of pinball with some stuff that is very memorable. That's something that not everyone can say.

He is in no way faultless, and there are some major issues that I am well aware of, but I can appreciate both sides on this one.

There's a reason you'd be hard pressed to find someone who had a licensing deal with Gene that didn't sour.

While WMS is now a subsidiary of Scientific Games (SGI). The name and entity exists. One day, Scientific Games may not own WMS. For the record, building signage at the Technology Campus still only indicates WMS. Photos were taken an hour ago at WMS (10:30 pm, CST, March 5th, 2014) since I just happened to be in the area.

IMAG2209.jpg
IMAG2211.jpg

Chapter 1.

Let me give you 1 of the IPB Moments

I produced Scared Stiff Cabinet Art using Treasurecoves Art Files and WMS Approved.

IPB claims they had a license from Elvira, which we ended up shipping all the art to IPB to be destroyed.

Because it had Elvira and Mistress of the dark on the artwork, US only expired Trademark

IPB goes after Treasurecove for making the art files and Threatens them into paying $7500 in damages.

Well guess what IPB didn't pay Elvira for the license they claimed they had, all this came out when gene made SS playfields.

This was the case with most of the Licenses Gene claimed to have owned.

I remember thinking, as I listened to Clay's interview with Gene, that he sounded like a total tool bag who believed he owned just about everything in all of pinball. Anytime Clay brought up anything someone else might have the right to produce, Gene said. "Nope. I own that."

Is there a link to that interview?

It's on clays TOPcast archive.

Do a google search for This Old Pinball Podcast, and you should find the archive page.

http://www.pinrepair.com/topcast/past.php

TOPcast 11

HAHA! "We have the programmers coming in, board designers, this weekend. To remake Capcom boardsets" LMAO

Did he lie about everything? Or were there nuggets of truth in there? especially when it comes to Kingpin I am asking.

A lot of folks consider Gene a saint for BBB. I don't think most people realize though, BBB would NOT have been completed without some very notable folks in the pinball community stepping in to get the project done.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

Hey Rob! What do you think? Did he BS the whole Kingpin thing or are we going to find a secret cache of work done on boardsets and programming?

What does WMS actually do in it's day-to-day operations? Watch for unauthorized use of it's name and parts reproductions?

Do they also manufacture slots like the Bally division does?

Just curious as I thought Bally/WMS was all under one roof.

I think it depends on how you look at it. In my opinion, Gene believed it would get done. Also in my opinion though, Gene believed a lot of complete BS that Gene spewed.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

So you don't think we will end up finding actual progress made on Kingpin? Kingpin was my first "gotcha" - I mean I really tried to order one right when I got into pinball. Pinside (gambit) talked me down way back then before I sent Gene money LOL. I still want that pin.

Do you think there is a better chance of Kingpin now? or still NO chance?

I'll just say that I think there was almost zero chance of Kingpin ever being done, now or then. Again, just my opinion.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

Kingpin would have never been made by Gene. Too many reasons.

I didn't deal with IPB a whole lot but when I did, it was all good.

I purchased 16 playfields all at once from them several years ago. Eight Kiss and eight EBD. A few of them were either a little too warped for my liking or had some other minor flaw. They replaced them with no questions asked. Can't ask for anything better than that from my perpective. I purchased some backglasses and playfield plastics from them occasionally too. The last time I dealt with them was in 2007. Since then it's been pretty-much piece meal and hand to foot on reproduction playfields and I do miss IPB and their customer service they gave me.

I'm not trying to detract from the rest of the horror stories that I see some on here slamming them with but that was my own experience with IPB from the limited involvement I had with them.

I am well aware of a lot of the other people that really came in and got together to help with the completion of BBB, and I do know that it would not have been completed without them, I just appreciate the fact that without Gene, I don't think that it would have been started. With just Gene however, I am positive it would have never been completed.

Bingo. What I do also believe is that Gene never appreciated the help that he had from so many different people, and when he more or less burned those bridges it ground to a halt a lot of what he could have otherwise accomplished.

There are many companies that are no more, but a small fraction of legals remain employed to do just that - watch for infringment.

Better title could be Kingpin of Dung.

With all of the BBB talk, I'd like to mention Pins n Vids vol 3, which is all about the making of BBB, and some excellent insight in to the project and Gene himself. Great work Al and Paul!

WMS makes casio games/slot machines. It is all they have done since pinball closed. WMS owned the Bally name (and probably still does). Scientific Games bought WMS last year and is now the parent company that owns WMS.

I sat down and talked with Gene for a good hour last year. I don't expect him ever to make an attempt to bring Kingpin to light again. It sounds like he wanted to, and still wants to, but he doesn't have the support or means to make it happen anymore. That will have to be someone else's project if/when the rights get transferred.

You could be more clever than that, I'm sure. Try harder. Though my 4-year quite nearly chuckled at it.

I have done business with IPB for a number of years and never had a bad experience. If something was not right, they always bent over backwards to make it right. Gene, Kim, Tammy (RIP) have been assets to the pinball community and I wish them nothing but the best and hope they rebound from their current legal issues.

Lol, you read pinside threads to your 4 year old? Bedtime reading must be fun.

Kerry spent how long physically there, building those things? He won't ever divulge the truth of how bad he got screwed in the deal, either.

No way. Gene has not produced anything in years, as far as I can tell. He hasn't worked on anything outside of collecting names for a project that will never happen. And you had to snail mail or sky write him just to do that.

I wanted to believe in Kingpin. I really did. But there was just no way it was actually going to happen. That ship has probably sailed forever.

Oh, I know they basically exist as a brand name and pieces of the company still remain, but SGI is calling the shots and there were layoffs a while back. Just pointing out that the WMS we knew is pretty much gone.

gangster pin, someone make one.....

Buy me a beer sometime and I'll tell you the story. It's one of my favorites.

Kingpin, if made, should be this one!

claudia-kingpin.jpg

Urinal-pooping.jpg

Having played Kingpin, it would be really hard for me not to jump on a preorder list if it was legitimately being made. After talking to Gene about it, I didn't feel the need to get on his list. I just hope that the project comes around again someday. The game is a lot of fun.

Gene has always struck me as the ultimate hoarder. When I see him at shows sitting at his table with ALL those parts, he doesn't seem motivated to sell anything. He seemed perfectly OK with lugging all this stuff across the country and then going home with it. The bad website also attests to this. Then his personal pinball collection...just tons of stuff that he was clearly never going to really do anything with. Does anyone know if he actually enjoyed playing games? Or was it just about the thrill of the hunt & ownership?

He likes to play, but he likes to own stuff more. He likes to talk about the size of his collection and all the way he picked up his games and parts. I don't think he's unique in that though, a lot of collectors enjoy the collecting more than the playing. I hope that I always love to play. When I lose that love, I don't ever plan on just continuing to gather games and parts.

He could sell so many more parts if he'd cut his prices just a bit. You think that after lugging them all out to a show that he'd like to at least take some money back.

When Don and I first went to Gene's house to discuss Nucore he walked us through all the buildings and through ALL of his house (certain people will appreciate this.) He couldn't have been happier that he had things not many people had. And though he sold items he would never sell, until he had to, his prizes. Unfortunately most of the machines in his collection were absolute junk. Rotten from water damage or just gutted.

As an aside I called Kerry about Gene before we worked the Nucore deal and I couldn't believe how nice he was about the whole BBB situation. He gave me the best advice to work with Gene, don't allow him the ability to screw you. We wrote the contract keeping that in mind. We wouldn't allow him to sell Nucore, that would have been a complete mess. Because of Kerry's advice we never got screwed. Now I completely understand that some good people did and that's very unfortunate. There were also claims that people screwed Gene but honestly who would ever know the complete truth about those dealings but the people involved. Gene's business card said it all, "Wheeler Dealer."

I started in the hobby back in 1990...had to take some time off because of a divorce, etc in 2003...and am now back in the game. I have learned a ton from this thread about how things transpired in the pinball community when I was absent.

Maybe a simple question, but something I would like to know. Based on some of the comments it looks like there was a lot of rights/equipment/machines/ etc that IPB had that some may say were wasted. Is this an opprotunity for someone else to pick up these rights and/or equipment and open up more options/parts/etc to the community?

Not wishing ill will on anyone, just wanted to see if this may be a good thing...

Scientific Games to be exact...