Disagree, I had been buying LEs and recently have played pro versions of the same games. Will probably go pro next game because of that. TAV, Xmen, acdc and Tron are great games at the pro price. In the coming world of 8 to 10 k pins Stern may have the best solution and they really are great.

I agree with you somewhat. I don't like that Stern does this "LE" thing now. I wish they still just made all machines the same. They could get rid of some of the "Bling" that the LE models have and keep in all of the components that contribute to the game play. They could put the pricing somewhere in between the pro and LE price tag. I don't need a little plaque and powder coated armor. But AC/DC for instance, when you get rid of that lower playfield, I think that takes a lot away from the game. The pro is still great, I just don't like that they get rid of some of the toys that the LE has. A nice common middle ground would be great.

And should the call it "Premium"? Maybe price it closer to the LE?

Stern makes the most money this way, and even if Gary loves pinball and keeps the lights burning, he is running a business.

And on the original point, I love my Tron "Pro". I played them before I bought it, and only bought after I already loved the game.

Don't agree at all. We as customers wanted the option to buy different versions of the same pin. I remember discussion threads on this very topic. Many people chimed in and said they would love the choice of spending more money and buying a feature rich pin. Especially when we read an interview with one of the designers and they mentioned what toys they had to remove due to cost. People said...I would be willing to pay extra cash for that toy or I wish they would offer us the option to buy that instead of just removing it.

Now as customers you are getting a choice. Stern is finally catering to the home collector and giving you the option. How can you complain about this? If you don't want to spend the money that is your choice. Can't please everyone all of the time I guess.

Pins today are no more feature ritch then LOTR, TSPP, or SM. People didn't mind paying extra money for games like BSM and LOTR LE which just has cosmetic differences and were limited in production. Stern seen that as an opportunity to start removing features from the Pro games and water them down. They tried it first with Costco Ironman and Batman "classics". Once those failed the pro basically replaced the "classics" and the LE replaced the pro. From a feature and toy standpoint, there is nothing mind blowing on Avengers LE that you don't get with a standard LOTR besides the 3K markup. I have been against and will always be against them making games with different features and rules. It forces people to buy LE's because nobody wants to own a pro when you have less features and rules. JJP is doing it right with only cosmetic differences between the Standard and LE.

I agree with TomN, it seems every other day there is a "pinball prices are too high" thread. Stern has made a model financially available to more customers therefore increasing their customer base. Some high end collectors enjoy the full LE experience but, a Pro model still gives us lowly pinheads a chance to own a NIB.

I don't think they would need to call it a premium or pro or anything if there was only 1 version. They could just call it AC/DC or XMEN or whatever.

Is there any difference in the gameplay between Tron Pro and Tron LE? or is it just the added bling?

Like with LOTR, I like how they had the original version and the LE. I know the LE was released much later, but the fact that the playability of both games is identical is awesome. If you want "Bling" get the LE. If not, don't and you'll still have the same game.

I agree 100%. The LE should only have cosmetic differences. Don't change the whole game.

Yeah, a little. The Tron LE has an exclusive Daft Punk multiball mode. As a Daft Punk fan it bums me out to not have it on the Pro. It also has drop targets on the left instead of stand-ups.

I agree that pins have gone up in price. The fact is that in order to survive Stern had to change their business model. This is the result...I would guess that if this current model hadn't worked they would be long gone. I think having a choice is better then having none.

As far as JJP goes I wish him nothing but success. If it's a fun pin I'll probably buy one. If it sucks I won't. Either way it's a great choice to have. Although I have my reservations about the long term viability of a company that depends on customer deposits for working capital. Also....As far as I know it's not even released to the mass market yet.

Let’s not kiss JJP's ass too much, they’re not helping bring prices down. Stern sees people buying 8k games from them and soon their prices will be there as well. The argument about difference in quality is valid but still, it's going to happen.

Stern is the only company even producing a $5k pin. JJP does not have a 5k model. What would a 5k WOZ look like?

Plus, by the time I discovered how much I liked Tron, the price difference for the LE was huge. I was late to the game for the LE because I really hate buying a game I don't like to play. I really need to play and like it before buying it. I really love some Stern machines, and just hate others. So I won't catch lightning like Tron LE, but I also won't be stuck with a lemon like (insert Stern game you don't like here).

Why do they call it a Pro... Because it's short for professional. I imagine the majority of Stern's business is still the operator. They need a cheaper machine to put on locations to earn a living. This is the Pro model. Enough home collectors have shown they want a machine much than the Pro and willing to pay a premium for extras. Sure, machines of yesteryear were not dumbed down but the business climate was much better for both the maker and op. They could both afford more. Complain all we want but Stern at least gave the home collector a choice instead of just the Pro model that butters their bread.

I went Pro on my last 2 game. Avengers and X-Men. I would have loved to have been able to get the better versions but I was able to go pro for a lot less and still have a couple of kick ass games in my opinion.

The Pros actually are the best playing games that Stern make.. The only exception is ACDC premium. TF, Avengers, Tron, Xmen all play better than the LEs...

But yes, its a money making venture at the expense of those who play them... Theres only what 500 Tron Le's out there, and for those who like drops there aint much chance of finding one to play, rather you have to play the pro... Avengers is a nice change since the playfield is not greatly different but having 2 versions that are quite different does not do any favours for the players...

I liked Gottlieb's Pro versions. Especially Pro Football.

It's a tough one, and one thing I know about marketing is that it is easy to criticize. However marketing 101 is to offer 3 options, one low price, one mid, and one high priced feature rich product. I don't mind the strategy, honestly I just want stern to remain successful, as I really enjoy new pinball machines coming out into the market!

The premiums and Le machines are likely high margin items, just like when you buy a car with all the options. Probably the right thing for stern to do with respect to profitability.

You make a very valid point here. I may have just changed my opinion

....and I'll probably never go "LE"....

Yeah, it's a bit of a bummer that a few features are missing on the Pro models, but in the case of my X-Men, I don't really miss them that much.

- The Nightcrawler pop-ups are cool, but that mode happens so infrequently, I barely notice.

- The moving Iceman bridge I find to be more distracting than enjoyable, so I totally don't miss that.

- The spinning disc is cool, and I do wish I had it, but the magnets cause enough chaos by themselves. Only gripe on my side is that Magneto multiball start is kinda lame without the disc.

Now, given all that, was it worth it to me to spend an extra $2K plus to get those features? Nah. I enjoy the heck out of my Pro AND the other game (or two) I'll be able to buy with the leftover cash.

I don't ever see spending over $4~5K for a machine. There's just too much selection out there....

Later,
EV

So then what you are saying is the LE has to be somewhat stripped down in features to accommodate what can be done for $4500 range pro model. Lame. I can't imagine anyone wanting this.

What most the price complainers actually want is for stern to give them equivalent if premiums for pro pricing. Lol that's not happening. I'm sorry if pinball is getting too expensive for some. But NiB pins is not a hobby everyone can expect to afford. There are plenty of games that may be more affordable. The latest NiB LE is not going to be one of them.

People keep comparing latest LE to lotr or tspp. Yea there were a tons of those being made back in the early 2000's. 10 years later and they don't move enough models anymore to spend that kind of money. Inflation happened. That's part of it. The other is that when you sell 1200 games instead of 12000 games, you can't charge $4000 and cover the cost of paying your employees let alone churn profit. Before the first game is built and any parts are bought for production, I bet stern is already close to a million $ in the hole for the development process. It's not just greed. I'd think anyone that can afford pinball machines would have the intelligence to see this . As sales dropped from the 12000 range to the 1200 unit range, stern started laying off people, really cheapening its product. All this to keep the price flat. Everyone hated them. Finally they got some funding, hired back the best people, and started cranking out full features games at prices that keep the company alive with small unit production numbers.

I'm thankful to have the access to purchase new games that are decent. You guys should be, too. If you're not, don't buy. Thread after thread of "prices are so high" is really boring. Makes me want to tell you guys to go to college to get better jobs or work more or something lol.

I agree with all of this, other than the last sentence. Stern makes better money off of the Pro/LE strategy. My guess is once they sell all LEs they have paid off the development costs for the machines, and what they sell on Pros is gravy. It almost guarantees them keeping the doors open unless they really step on their cranks with a game. LEs equal hype, excitement, people buying games early in order to "get in", rather than waiting three years to pick up a Pro, or just purchase an HUO off the guy down the street.

If you can't afford (or aren't willing) to play in this strategy, then don't. Kind of dumb though to ask Stern to change from a working business strategy back to one where they almost went out of business.

Playabilty wise, I like XM and TF Pros better than the LEs. Tron is a wash. I haven't played an Avengers LE, so I am not sure yet there, but I can really see missing that Hawkeye crossover ramp. AC/DC is the only game where I would never buy a Pro. The Premium is just so much better. Now remember I said "playability wise". Obviously the LEs and Premiums all look better than the Pros...minus some of the translites...but I would never pay $2,000 for some lights or colored rails. I am not a fan of removing modes and gameplay from the Pros. IMHO, LEs should be cosmetic changes.

I think the OP feels the LE's should just have cosmetic differences, not more features. SM is not lame compared to BSM and WOZ is not lame compared to WOZ LE, so it can be done by both parties.

Plenty of people can afford NIB machines but chose not to buy them. Just because someone can afford a NIB machines doesn't mean they have to be happy with the current pricing. Plus, it's not people who buy NIB games that are effected by pricing since it also effects the secondary market of routed and HUO machines when they come up for resale.

If you complain about price, you can't afford it. Just like at high end retail stores, if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/afford - "to be able to do, manage, or bear without serious consequence or adverse effect." Complaining about price would be that adverse affect, meaning you are missing the money.

Do I think their NIB LE prices suck? Absolutely. Why? I can't even think to spend that much on a pin right now, can't afford it.

This is just ignorant. I know lots of people who make well over 100K (maybe not a lot in your opinion, but it is for most people), and don't have used car money available to buy a toy like a pinball machine.

I agree...Tron Pro is 99% just as much fun as Tron LE (the 1% is Daft Punk Multiball) but at 1/2 the price. (and I own an LE and I'm admitting the fun of the pro... so it must be true)

No I'm not saying that at all. I just it would be cool if there were an option to have the LE features and not have to pay for the bling (RGB LEDs and powder coating). Of course it would have to cost more than a pro. That goes without saying. I like that they did and ACDC Premium. I think it would be neat to have premiums for all new pins...But I don't run Stern!

Silliest thing I have heard in a while.

I complain about the gas prices but I can afford it
I complain about NIB prices but can afford it
I complain about the price of that 1996 GTS Dodge Viper I want, but I can afford it

What people can afford and what people feel things are costing are 2 completely different things. Not going to say what I make as that is none of anyones business but my wife and the IRS but it's plenty to live well. I can afford a $400K house but I chose to live in one not even half that cost. I can afford a brand new Shelby GT500 but I chose to buy a GT. Life has choices and people will pay what they feel something is worth to them but to say we complain because we can't afford it is just plain silly.

Back to the OP - I'm 180 degrees from you. I'm actually looking at buying pro on forward vs LE/Prem. I'd much rather have 2 games than 1 with more features. My thought that if a pins pro isn't fun or worth it then I just wont own that pin unless I can get an LE for $5500 or less. Paying over $6K for pins now is just not something I'm open to anymore.

I hear ya and those are valid points. However, biggest difference to your examples? Gas is needed to get to work, run errands etc. Pins are a luxury expense. If you complain about luxury expense prices my personal suggestion would be to simply not buy them.

LE/ Premium snobs like this used to drive me nuts. Now I just shake my head and laugh.

It so classy when someone posts a picture of their NIB Pro with pride, only to have the inevitable "Ooooh...too bad you couldn't afford the LE like me" posting.

Some people (I'm one of them) can afford the LE but choose the Pro for the reasons stated in this thread. I've played both versions of AC/DC (although not BIBLE) and I way preferred the Pro. Much faster, better translite, no lame (IMO) lower playfield. Again, my opinion.

Show me that thread.

Saying LEs are a certain market and having sales prove it is not the same as saying that market makes fun of another buyer.
As a BMW owner I would laugh if a KIA buyer was complaining in the BMW showroom about BMW prices. At the same time I just walked up to a woman on the street who had some new KIA that just looked amazing and told her I was blown away with its styling.

He gave many examples, not just gas. He also described a luxury car.

My wife said a stranger approached her today and said something about blowing and her new Kia. She fled in terror.

The only true way to force Stern to lower prices is for another manufacturer to enter the market and produce a same quality and feature rich game for a lower price.

I completely disagree with this statement. Its a value/$$ ratio issue. The value just isn't there at current NIB prices, in my opinion, and even though I can afford to buy NIB I choose not to.

I completely understand that Stern is selling fewer pins than back in 2008 and earlier, that makes sense. It also makes sense that Stern had to raise prices to become more profitable and anyone can see the whole LE strategy is just a way for Stern to increase prices across the board. It was a smart business strategy and its working well.

What I find funny is looking through the posts I have seen people say say I will never buy another Stern LE NIB again, that is unless they make <Insert Fav Theme Here>, then I will buy just one more and that's it. At the same time these same individuals are stating they don't agree with the pricing, are not a fan of Stern's lack of code updates, etc. It just shows how well Stern's strategy is working.

Either you agree with the strategy and buy or you don't and stop buying NIB. I admit I got caught up in the NIB hype for a theme I wanted and bought Transformers LE. I made the mistake of buying sight unseen and without playing the end product first. I learned my lesson, hopefully some of the new guys out there looking to buy their first NIB game take the advice of those that have been there and think carefully about what they are buying.

You have to accept the high risk of buying NIB. Just don't come back posting that you are unhappy with Stern because of code issues or problems with build quality. Those issues have been discussed in great detail here and on other pinball sites. The code issue is a given. Build quality varies.

Back on topic, I also will not buy a Pro. The LEs are the only way to go in my eyes. For example say what you want about the XMEN's moving ramp, the Nightcrawler mechs or the spinning disc, what sets it apart for me is the lighting. I can't imagine playing the game without that feature and buying the Pro eliminates that.

I also wonder who this whole Pro/LE configuration affects tournaments. You can't compare a LE game to a Pro since they score differently.

Waiting for the "I'll never go "The Pin" thread...

Compare a Tron Pro to a LOTR standard; you're getting more for your money now. The Pros are not "stripped down" - the LE's are "beefed up". I don't test-drive Ferraris because I don't want to be unhappy with my Toyota. Likewise I don't look at LE pins, so I don't know or care what I'm missing. Call it sour grapes, whatever.

Anyway, until Stern offers an LE with incandescent bulbs, I'm sticking with the Pros.

What about the multi color LEDs in AC/DC?

Actually, I haven't seen any of the pins that were designed for LEDs from the ground up. I need to check one out; that could change my mind.

Are you kidding me?

How are you getting more for your money now with Tron pro compared to LOTR when Tron pro costs $600-800 more then LOTR did NIB. LOTR has metal ramps and wireforms compared to plastic ramps on Tron. Tron has pegs on the bottom of the PF and the ratchet style lockdown bar. If you want to say Tron Pro is comparable to LOTR then I can see some arguments for that, but saying you get more for Tron pro is silly.

I have a LOTR, so I'm not unhappy at all with it. But consider some of the improvements Stern has made since 2003:
- SAM audio >> Whitestar
- better cabinet graphics (IMHO)
- SW can be upgraded via USB

If you prefer, compare Tron Pro to a game like HRC. Better?

absolutely false! I love tron, but I just played one Wednesday that was sitting next to a LOTR. Tron is BARREN by comparison. this was a second run pro. BARREN!

No, ignoring the improvements Stern has made over the last 10 years is silly.

those video and sound improvements should come just as advancements in computer and programming technology. Not as a 3k price adjustment to compensate for an empty playfield.

Both parts of this are completely untrue. I hear you guys screaming "BARREN" all the time, but IM is doing really well right now. Sometimes less is more.

As someone who enjoys most pro versions better than the LE model, I like seeing posts like this.

You're right. You shouldn't have to put up with that stripped down garbage. Stick to your guns. Only buy LE's. kthnx