(Topic ID: 68869)

IJ Williams "You Cheat, Dr. Jones!" Club

By RDReynolds

10 years ago


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There are 11,589 posts in this topic. You are on page 175 of 232.
#8701 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

it seems like I am having an issue with the right flipper.
This coil had to be replaced as it was overheated and swollen and had to be replaced.
However, even with the new coil I noticed the following:
It seems to have a bit less holding power than the left
If I touch the coil, I can feel the current going through it (it sounds stupid but I feel whatever this is, magnetism? no idea, the magnetic field or the current but this is not noticeable on the left flipper.
The holding power is ok, but if a ball comes down at speed I get a micro flip and a huge bounce off the right flipper.
The right coil heats up a lot faster than the left, when on hold. In fact, the left shows no signs of heat when on hold.
EOS is new and adjusted properly, also working on switch test.
The left coil does not have these issues however holding power seems to be about the same and micro flips are not noticeable during play.
last but not least, I tested the right coil WIRED TO the left flipper and the results are the same as described above.
Bad new coil?

I know you said you adjusted the EOS, but that kinda sounds like an EOS issue.

Are you checking this with a game started or in test mode? I would check it in Test mode if you haven't and try the hold function there.

#8702 2 years ago

Thanks for the replies, as mentioned, the right coil behaves the same way when wired to the left side. That I think eliminates any possibilities of a board issue.

In test mode I noticed the coil does not lift on its own ( IN HOLD TEST ) unless I help it by hand a little.
There is no mechanical interference, the plunger moves freely inside the sleeve, the spring is new in both flipper and it is not overly strong. Everything seems normal there.

In test, the EOS works and I do not think is an issue in this fliptronics era, like it was in Sys11 games.

The other coil lifts on its own (in hold test), and it does not show any issues. Both flippers were rebuilt at the exact time.

#8703 2 years ago
Quoted from FlippyD:

Perhaps, but my gut is saying power driver board issue. Perhaps a transistor is going but hasn't blown out completely, I forget which one is the one for the right flipper but you could test that.
Other thoughts: Coil is the correct rating? Coil has correct diode on it?

Transistors don't break half way it's all or. Nothing with those

#8704 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

Thanks for the replies, as mentioned, the right coil behaves the same way when wired to the left side. That I think eliminates any possibilities of a board issue.
In test mode I noticed the coil does not lift on its own ( IN HOLD TEST ) unless I help it by hand a little.
There is no mechanical interference, the plunger moves freely inside the sleeve, the spring is new in both flipper and it is not overly strong. Everything seems normal there.
In test, the EOS works and I do not think is an issue in this fliptronics era, like it was in Sys11 games.
The other coil lifts on its own (in hold test), and it does not show any issues. Both flippers were rebuilt at the exact time.

have you checked the resistance of the coils - should be 4 and 133 Ohms for the 2 windings

#8705 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

it seems like I am having an issue with the right flipper.
This coil had to be replaced as it was overheated and swollen and had to be replaced.
However, even with the new coil I noticed the following:
It seems to have a bit less holding power than the left
If I touch the coil, I can feel the current going through it (it sounds stupid but I feel whatever this is, magnetism? no idea, the magnetic field or the current but this is not noticeable on the left flipper.
The holding power is ok, but if a ball comes down at speed I get a micro flip and a huge bounce off the right flipper.
The right coil heats up a lot faster than the left, when on hold. In fact, the left shows no signs of heat when on hold.
EOS is new and adjusted properly, also working on switch test.
The left coil does not have these issues however holding power seems to be about the same and micro flips are not noticeable during play.
last but not least, I tested the right coil WIRED TO the left flipper and the results are the same as described above.
Bad new coil?

Post pics of both assembly’s. Also did you properly gap both?

#8706 2 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

have you checked the resistance of the coils - should be 4 and 133 Ohms for the 2 windings

My Fluke 87 says 4.5 at power and 125.3 at hold

Quoted from thechakapakuni:

Post pics of both assembly’s. Also did you properly gap both?

what gap? Eos gap? They seem to be perfectly set up engaging at 95% of the end of the stroke.

#8707 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

My Fluke 87 says 4.5 at power and 125.3 at hold

Hhmm the hold seems a little less than what I'd expect. How'd that compare to the other flipper coil?

#8708 2 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

Hhmm the hold seems a little less than what I'd expect. How'd that compare to the other flipper coil?

the other is at 129.6

#8709 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

You should have new anarchy flipper boards in that, but you never know...
Maybe the plastic opto interrupters are warping?
If the interrupter doesnt cleanly break and cover the opto beam you can get stuttering. It acts like a dirty opto.
Very early versions had metal going over them to address warping on the white plastic ones.
The new black plastic ones warp less but still have to be trimmed and fitted sometimes. Or they are not molded right and are not flat.
Other issues are the flipper buttons dont extend far enough to break the beam cleanly. This is due to random hole depths.
Slightly sanding the tabs shorter/narrower? can help if the interrupter is bottoming out cleanly when you are done.
A little is a lot on this.

I ran the mini playfield test in the menu settings, and it does the same stuttering when tilting to the left. I am guessing that rules out the flipper optos because they aren't used at all during an automated mini pf test? I'll have to take off my mini playfield and maybe just try to clean the optos back there. I have some lens cleaner. Wondering if a hair or lint fell back there, I don't know how sensitive optos are.

#8710 2 years ago

Ricochet's antidote fixed another Indy. I was getting very terrible rejects, probably 95%. The only time it would previously go in was if the ball rolled slow enough, such as being backhanded from the left flipper. It makes a cha-ching sound when it goes in like you're opening a cash register. A much necessary piece of engineering. THANKS. And no STDM. I only had to trim off a small part of the top decor plastic to make it all fit.

DSC_3459 (resized).JPGDSC_3459 (resized).JPG
#8711 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

the other is at 129.6

I just checked a couple of new coils I have as spares (different suppliers) and while the power on both is 4.1 ohm, I have 121 and 157 ohms on the hold. So not sure why the variation (unless they don't have the correct number of windings - it should be 3000 turns of 30AWG) however there does seem to be some inconsistency in replacement coils. This would cause a slight difference in the power draw, heat and flipper hold power; and the issue followed the coil when you swapped it from the right to left flipper, so I'd have to guess that this is possibly why. Just to double check, throw the left coil in the right flipper mech and verify there is no issue with the circuit.

#8712 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

In test mode I noticed the coil does not lift on its own

This is a huge red flag.

Check and recheck the assembly and the gap between the flipper bat and the bushing on the topside of the playfield.

The flipper plunger, link and pawl should be basically inline, with the bat about 3/32" above the flipper bushing.

Check for cracked bushing. This causes binding under power.

Binding causes heat build up and weak performance.

#8713 2 years ago
Quoted from Flipper_McGavin:

I only had to trim off a small part of the top decor plastic to make it all fit.

I did too.

#8714 2 years ago
Quoted from Flipper_McGavin:

I ran the mini playfield test in the menu settings, and it does the same stuttering when tilting to the left. I am guessing that rules out the flipper optos because they aren't used at all during an automated mini pf test? I'll have to take off my mini playfield and maybe just try to clean the optos back there. I have some lens cleaner. Wondering if a hair or lint fell back there, I don't know how sensitive optos are.

Could also be a loose/dirty connector on the POA opto board

Maybe change the connector for a trifurcon.

#8715 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

This is a huge red flag.
Check and recheck the assembly and the gap between the flipper bat and the bushing on the topside of the playfield.
The flipper plunger, link and pawl should be basically inline, with the bat about 3/32" above the flipper bushing.
Check for cracked bushing. This causes binding under power.
Binding causes heat build up and weak performance.

just to clarify, it does not lift when the hold test is being done. The left does, but barely.
Nonetheless, if I give a little help with my hand (this is minimal, as in a VERY gently push) the flipper lifts on its own.

During gameplay holds seems almost equal on both (I have manually tested).

There is not any mechanically wrong, I think, all parts are new including the bushings. nothing is rubbing anywhere. I checked, double check, triple check.

I am guessing this is simply a bad coil? weird thing is I feel the coil drawing power when I touch it whereas the other coil does not have that HUMMM to it.

#8716 2 years ago

Sounds like you gotta test another coil. Also are you certain you've wired both the coil and EOS correctly? I had an issue recently after rebuilding a game - it wouldn't start - and I hunted all over for a solution. It ended up being a simple mistake I made where I swapped two wires on a connector I rebuilt.

#8717 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Could also be a loose/dirty connector on the POA opto board
Maybe change the connector for a trifurcon.

I simply unplugged the connector and reinserted. POA now works. I love easy fixes.

#8718 2 years ago
Quoted from Flipper_McGavin:

Ricochet's antidote fixed another Indy. I was getting very terrible rejects, probably 95%. The only time it would previously go in was if the ball rolled slow enough, such as being backhanded from the left flipper. It makes a cha-ching sound when it goes in like you're opening a cash register. A much necessary piece of engineering. THANKS. And no STDM. I only had to trim off a small part of the top decor plastic to make it all fit.
[quoted image]

Excellent … you have one of the first revs that doesn’t have the SDTM fix/tweak.

I still have ONE of them left at a discount if anyone is interested.

$25 shipped continental US, $35 elsewhere.

#8719 2 years ago
Quoted from Flipper_McGavin:

I simply unplugged the connector and reinserted. POA now works. I love easy fixes.

Probably should replace the connector with trifurcon.

I should have done that when i put in the new board.

Sorry. I was lazy and wanted to see it work right after putting the new parts in.

My bad...

#8720 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

just to clarify, it does not lift when the hold test is being done. The left does, but barely.
Nonetheless, if I give a little help with my hand (this is minimal, as in a VERY gently push) the flipper lifts on its own.
During gameplay holds seems almost equal on both (I have manually tested).
There is not any mechanically wrong, I think, all parts are new including the bushings. nothing is rubbing anywhere. I checked, double check, triple check.
I am guessing this is simply a bad coil? weird thing is I feel the coil drawing power when I touch it whereas the other coil does not have that HUMMM to it.

It shoudnt hum.

Weak connection somewhere.

Driver board or fliptronics board weirdness.

Replace the fliptronics board if you have a spare and see if it persists

#8721 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

My Fluke 87 says 4.5 at power and 125.3 at hold

what gap? Eos gap? They seem to be perfectly set up engaging at 95% of the end of the stroke.

Doesn’t sound like you gapped it. Doesn’t seem like a big deal but it’s critical. My IJ specifically had issues with 1 flipper because of the play/gap. Here is a pic of the tool and gap. Also as part of rebuilding the flippers I always replace the bushings

44A6680B-3802-4762-A7B9-C1E701BF1B9F (resized).jpeg44A6680B-3802-4762-A7B9-C1E701BF1B9F (resized).jpeg8315B0F2-27EC-4751-BEFC-EFB464BDF5E3 (resized).jpeg8315B0F2-27EC-4751-BEFC-EFB464BDF5E3 (resized).jpeg
#8722 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Probably should replace the connector with trifurcon.
I should have done that when i put in the new board.
Sorry. I was lazy and wanted to see it work right after putting the new parts in.
My bad...

Yes because now the mini playfield is acting up again, it has to be that connector going to the opto board. I am guessing trifurcon connectors snap in much better than these factory connectors, or do these factory connectors just wear out over time?

#8723 2 years ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

Doesn’t sound like you gapped it. Doesn’t seem like a big deal but it’s critical. My IJ specifically had issues with 1 flipper because of the play/gap. Here is a pic of the tool and gap. Also as part of rebuilding the flippers I always replace the bushings
[quoted image][quoted image]

Sorry bud, it is gapped. I used that tool exactly to do it.

Quoted from pinballinreno:

It shoudnt hum.
Weak connection somewhere.
Driver board or fliptronics board weirdness.
Replace the fliptronics board if you have a spare and see if it persists

Well, I wired it to the other side and it does the same…
I presume that removes any concerns with the boards

#8724 2 years ago
Quoted from Flipper_McGavin:

Yes because now the mini playfield is acting up again, it has to be that connector going to the opto board. I am guessing trifurcon connectors snap in much better than these factory connectors, or do these factory connectors just wear out over time?

Factory IDC connectors were never designed to go 30 years.

Ttifurcon is the way to go.

Great plains electronics is the place to go for all your connector needs.

You can even pm ed at gpe

Hes active on.pinside.

#8725 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

Sorry bud, it is gapped. I used that tool exactly to do it.

Well, I wired it to the other side and it does the same…
I presume that removes any concerns with the boards

Csn you post some pics of the assemblies?

#8726 2 years ago

Flipper issue seems solved.
Only time I get I ghost micro flip is when the ball comes back full force from the top of the right ramp, I presume this is normal for this era games? Try it in yours: drop the ball from very top of the right ramp and let the ball land on the right flipper on hold.
My left does the same however it rarely gets hit by a ball like this.

I presume this is just a game nuance. The flippers work great otherwise and the hold is perfect in any other situation.

The humming is gone and it was due to a 0.5 mm gap in between the coil stop and the plunger. It did look like nothing but it was the only thing that came to mind.
In other words the coil had a small wiggle side to side, with that gone, humming gone as well. A new flipper assy was installed to fix this as the other one would not allow to close the gap regardless of what I did the front and rear bracket. All that to say: if a coil seats loose on the assy, get rid of the assy!

#8727 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

Flipper issue seems solved.
Only time I get I ghost micro flip is when the ball comes back full force from the top of the right ramp, I presume this is normal for this era games? Try it in yours: drop the ball from very top of the right ramp and let the ball land on the right flipper on hold.
My left does the same however it rarely gets hit by a ball like this.
I presume this is just a game nuance. The flippers work great otherwise and the hold is perfect in any other situation.
The humming is gone and it was due to a 0.5 mm gap in between the coil stop and the plunger. It did look like nothing but it was the only thing that came to mind.
In other words the coil had a small wiggle side to side, with that gone, humming gone as well. A new flipper assy was installed to fix this as the other one would not allow to close the gap regardless of what I did the front and rear bracket. All that to say: if a coil seats loose on the assy, get rid of the assy!

When rebuilding flipper mechs the coils should be tight against the coil stops.

If loose, bend the stop toward the coil. Use a vice or hammer on the ground.

Squeeze the stop firmly against the coil when installing.

Both the upper bracket and coil stop often need adjusting.

Loose coils rob the assembly of power. Much like swinging a cracked baseball bat.

#8728 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

When rebuilding flipper mechs the coils should be tight against the coil stops.
If loose, bend the stop toward the coil. Use a vice or hammer on the ground.
Squeeze the stop firmly against the coil when installing.
Both the upper bracket and coil stop often need adjusting.
Loose coils rob the assembly of power. Much like swinging a cracked baseball bat.

yup, I did try bending the stop a bit but it did not do much difference as the assembly was slightly off. I had another assy to switch out with and that was easier than trying to adjust this one.
No pushing by hand was enough to get it closer.
Interesting lesson learned.

#8729 2 years ago

I am still curious to know if dropping a ball from the top of the right ramp would trigger a micro flip on your flippers.
Please let me know if someone can try.

#8730 2 years ago

new issue detected, sorry, this is going to be ongoing, please advise if I need to take this to a different subforum (tech?)

When pressing the left flipper button, it seems it is triggering 'gun trigger switch' and it shoots a ball.

I do not know yet how to diagnose the switch matrix, I understand these 'somewhat'... but quickly got confused when looking at the matrix on the manual and following the cables supposedly daisy chained...

Now at a quick glance I can see the Flipper OPTO and the GUN trigger are on the same row, however, the OPTO is dedicated... I do not know enough to read this.

Can someone give me a hand?

#8731 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

new issue detected, sorry, this is going to be ongoing, please advise if I need to take this to a different subforum (tech?)
When pressing the left flipper button, it seems it is triggering 'gun trigger switch' and it shoots a ball.
I do not know yet how to diagnose the switch matrix, I understand these 'somewhat'... but quickly got confused when looking at the matrix on the manual and following the cables supposedly daisy chained...
Now at a quick glance I can see the Flipper OPTO and the GUN trigger are on the same row, however, the OPTO is dedicated... I do not know enough to read this.
Can someone give me a hand?

Spounds like a short, broken wire, hack etc...

Take a look at the backbox side also for loose pins or wires.

Patching these games up continuously is what led me into restorations.

Its faster and easier to just restore a game.

#8732 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Spounds like a short, broken wire, hack etc...
Take a look at the backbox side also for loose pins or wires.
Patching these games up continuously is what led me into restorations.
Its faster and easier to just restore a game.

I didnt say cheaper lol.

#8733 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

new issue detected, sorry, this is going to be ongoing, please advise if I need to take this to a different subforum (tech?)
When pressing the left flipper button, it seems it is triggering 'gun trigger switch' and it shoots a ball.
I do not know yet how to diagnose the switch matrix, I understand these 'somewhat'... but quickly got confused when looking at the matrix on the manual and following the cables supposedly daisy chained...
Now at a quick glance I can see the Flipper OPTO and the GUN trigger are on the same row, however, the OPTO is dedicated... I do not know enough to read this.
Can someone give me a hand?

There's a software setting to let the left flipper plunge. I turn it on cause my little girl doesn't know how to pull the gun trigger.

#8734 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

I am still curious to know if dropping a ball from the top of the right ramp would trigger a micro flip on your flippers.
Please let me know if someone can try.

Not sure what you mean by micro flip, but what can happen is a ball with enough force will push back on a flipper that is being held up. If you don't drop or catch and just hold it will probably look like a "micro flip". It's perfectly normal.

#8735 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

I am still curious to know if dropping a ball from the top of the right ramp would trigger a micro flip on your flippers.
Please let me know if someone can try.

As FlippyD stated that is normal and is the main function of the EOS switch in fliptronics games, as it will re-energise the power side of the coil if a fast moving ball strikes the bat and makes it fall to a point that the EOS re-opens. Note that de-energising the power side of the coil is controlled by fliptronics board when either the EOS closes or around 90ms (whichever occurs first).

#8736 2 years ago
Quoted from FlippyD:

Not sure what you mean by micro flip, but what can happen is a ball with enough force will push back on a flipper that is being held up. If you don't drop or catch and just hold it will probably look like a "micro flip". It's perfectly normal.

Yeah exactly, it is just more notorious than in my other games so at first I thought there was something wrong.
Will check the settings about the shooter, thanks for the tip. Weird thing is that it is intermittent and the error report said to check switch 34 (shooter)

#8737 2 years ago
Quoted from Manny65:

As FlippyD stated that is normal and is the main function of the EOS switch in fliptronics games, as it will re-energise the power side of the coil if a fast moving ball strikes the bat and makes it fall to a point that the EOS re-opens. Note that de-energising the power side of the coil is controlled by fliptronics board when either the EOS closes or around 90ms (whichever occurs first).

So would it be recommended to activate the eos as late as possible then? If it pretty much at the end now, might have a tiny bit more room to give.

#8738 2 years ago

You mentioned it only happens from the top of the right ramp? That's one of the tallest spots in pinball. Any ball rolling back from there will have a lot of energy!

#8739 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

So would it be recommended to activate the eos as late as possible then? If it pretty much at the end now, might have a tiny bit more room to give.

Yes they should close at the end of the stroke - but again remember that what you are seeing is expected behaviour. Here's how it should be set up
EOS setting (resized).JPGEOS setting (resized).JPG

#8740 2 years ago

perfect, thanks Manny. I double checked my previous work and it was all set up correctly, EOS activating at the very end and only by adjusting the smaller tab. I had forgotten that the leaf adjuster are exactly 1/16" at the tip so you can precisely measure the gap in between contacts! haha I totally forgot about this until I was checking the distance in between them just now.

#8741 2 years ago

Manny65 do you know why the tilt bob goes onto the coin door board instead of going to the CPU as per the matrix map?

I am trying to learn how to read these and I understand the matrix is just daisy chained in between columns and rows but I do not understand why the coin door is not mentioned and the tilt bob goes onto the board but in the matrix it says that it goes to the CPU...
What am I missing?

#8742 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

Manny65 do you know why the tilt bob goes onto the coin door board instead of going to the CPU as per the matrix map?
I am trying to learn how to read these and I understand the matrix is just daisy chained in between columns and rows but I do not understand why the coin door is not mentioned and the tilt bob goes onto the board but in the matrix it says that it goes to the CPU...
What am I missing?

There are dedicated switches … these are for “critical” things that should not be shared with others as to avoid combinatorial faults. You wouldn’t want something like a bad diode in the switch matrix to add credits.

#8743 2 years ago

How would I distinguish a dedicated switch when looking at the manual?
I am trying to learn how to read these.

The tilt bob is part of row 4 so I am confused

Are all other switches just daisy chained starting at the cpu?

#8744 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

How would I distinguish a dedicated switch when looking at the manual?
I am trying to learn how to read these.

switch_matrix.jpgswitch_matrix.jpg
#8745 2 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

[quoted image]

sorry, I dont want to be rude. I did see this page in the manual.

Can someone explain why the tilt bob does not go to the cpu, instead it goes to the coin door which is marked as row 4 in the connector.
Another member here stated it was a dedicated switch, however, the titl bob is not listed as a dedicated switch… hence, my confusion.

Thanks

#8746 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

sorry, I dont want to be rude. I did see this page in the manual.
Can someone explain why the tilt bob does not go to the cpu, instead it goes to the coin door which is marked as row 4 in the connector.
Another member here stated it was a dedicated switch, however, the titl bob is not listed as a dedicated switch… hence, my confusion.
Thanks

My error on thinking it is dedicated… it is not.

#8747 2 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:

sorry, I dont want to be rude. I did see this page in the manual.
Can someone explain why the tilt bob does not go to the cpu, instead it goes to the coin door which is marked as row 4 in the connector.
Another member here stated it was a dedicated switch, however, the titl bob is not listed as a dedicated switch… hence, my confusion.
Thanks

The coin door interface board is simply used to route most of the cabinet switches (both dedicated and matrix but not flipper) back to the CPU board and the intention was probably to simplify the cable looms, connectors and make it easier for the factory to build. Note that has interface board contains diodes for the matrix switches such as the plumb bob, whereas the dedicated switches are simply passed straight through - check out 3-27 in the manual

#8748 2 years ago

One more installed. Easy to do, no need to remove the back bridge. Very functional fix.

IMG_3290 (resized).JPGIMG_3290 (resized).JPGIMG_3291 (resized).JPGIMG_3291 (resized).JPGIMG_3292 (resized).JPGIMG_3292 (resized).JPG
#8749 2 years ago

Noticed "Jul 12 CCC" on my playfield. And a "A Team" marking. Does that mean it had a playfield swap some time ago?

IMG_3293 (resized).JPGIMG_3293 (resized).JPGIMG_3294 (resized).JPGIMG_3294 (resized).JPG

#8750 2 years ago
Quoted from Joost996me:

Noticed "Jul 12 CCC" on my playfield. And a "A Team" marking. Does that mean it had a playfield swap some time ago?
[quoted image][quoted image]

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/repro-vs-original-playfields#post-106004

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Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
Toys/Add-ons
€ 160.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Pino Pinball Mods Shop
Toys/Add-ons
$ 0.00
Playfield - Other
PinJewels
Other
$ 9.95
$ 79.00
Boards
PinballReplacementParts
Boards
From: $ 209.00
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
Eproms
From: $ 20.00
Various Novelties
Pinball Photos LLC
Various novelties
12,000 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Wilmington, DE
Hey modders!
Your shop name here
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