https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ifpa-championship-series-2015-2016-discussion-thread

The answer to this is simple:

The local players should organize more events in their home state. This then limits the impact that the 'regional/national' events have in the state.

If Pennsylvania which hosts 3 Circuit events including 2 Majors can still make up a top 16 that is mostly "Pennsylvania" people, there's no excuse for any state to not do the same.

We prefer to motivate organizers to get more competitive pinball going, and the v5.0 WPPR system supports that. Allowing local players to compete in the SCS by making players play in 3 events within state does nothing to promote those local communities to grow the sport. IMO it allows them to sit back and relax and do nothing, because they don't have to worry about these regional/national events having an impact in their state.

I'm also failing to see where all of these out of state people are impacting the Georgia State Championship? Outside of Eric Fisher, it looks like everyone else played at least 3 GA events anyway?

This argument comes up every year.

What if you live on the border of 2 states? Should you be exiled if you can cross the border and play in a bunch of events?

Does the IFPA need to start checking people's mailing address and licenses?

If you put the work in and travel to a state and make the SCS cut then you should be able to play there. IMHO

I prefer to deal with the reality of what is actually happening in the registration process, and not the what could happen type of scenarios. The reality I'm seeing is that more often than not, these SCS fields are being made up of the players you are concerned about protecting already. By more often than not, I'm not talking 51% . . . I'm talking easily 90%+.

I understand you're trying to speak for not just Georgia, but in general, but is there a case in Georgia I'm missing?

Ultimately the IFPA really wants more events to be started, specifically events within local communities, even more specifically events at public locations in these communities. The backbone of the points earned in these kind of events we're trying to promote is with our SCS campaign.

p.s. your rules would instantly disqualify the Kentucky SCS from even existing as they didn't even have 3 'distinct' events in 2015

How about make it so that if you qualify for multiple states you have to play in your home state if possible first, then if you don't make the cut there, you can play in another state in which you are eligible.

Yeah this stinks.

There are no locations in NKY that can have tournaments, there are spots in UL that can, but no one down there is having IFPA events. Lexington has no location pinball either. UL expo is it.

I fail to understand why limiting a "state championship" to the players that live in the state is such a big deal. Seems like it would make it a lot more manageable for the IFPA.

Yes, players that live near other states would have to play to represent their state, but that's usually how it's done in every other sporting event.

Don't get me started on VA.

I often use Wisconsin as the prime example of how local communities can take over the SCS for that home state.

The first year when Werdrick qualified based on just the MGC, there was a ton of drama around that because it accounted for such a large portion of the points earned within the state back in 2013. There were 19 events in Wisconsin that year.

Fast forward 2 years . . . Wisconsin had 112 events on Wisconsin state soil for the 2015 season.

THAT is how you kick the Illinois kids out

(Werdrick was 24th for the WI SCS this year and was a non-issue in determining the top 16 field)

This is true for Texas. I just looked and out of the 8 people that are out of state that are would qualify, only one (Bob Mathews) is showing to be playing in the championship.

What I really need to know though is, I'm second alternate for the tournament. Anyone know if Nancy Caragen works over fingers or is she strictly into knees?

Neither. Tonya Harding is who you want to ask. Haha.

It was Nancy Kerrigan that was the victim...it was Tonya Harding/Jeff Gooluly that were the hitees.

As part of the KY representation I might respond later...

Phoebe

Indiana has a lot of tourneys but most are in the northern part of the state. I can just as easily go to Louisville or Cinncinatti for tourneys even though I live in Indiana.

I think the IFPA just wants players in general and not to have any limiting factors for the players that want to play. If the more competitive people want to bend the rules to their advantage, then they probably aren't playing well enough to begin with. What Josh says makes sense that if you want to make major tournaments count less, organize more local tournaments. It sounds like a great way to urge people to bring new players to tourneys or leagues.

A lot more manageable?

Right now we track event locations through our calendar submissions. Usually those have the self policing nature of being 'correct' or else players wouldn't be showing up to the right place.

Managing player addresses on the other hand, no thanks. I have no interest in having people prove their residency to us. It's more logistics we would have to handle, and puts certain players at a disadvantage in the SCS.

If I'm Chris Basler and I live right over the Missouri/Illinois border, what are my options knowing that I play most of my pinball in Missouri, but I live in Illinois. The Missouri SCS is 10 minutes from my house, the Illinois SCS is 4 hours from my house.

The answer is I play in Kentucky, because I fucking earned the right to do so based on my play

IMO the last person who deserves to get screwed here is Chris for 'qualifying' in Oklahoma, Georgia, Kentucky, Nevada, Illinois, Missouri and Pennsylvania. If he wanted to drive 10 minutes to the Missouri SCS . . . awesome. If he wanted to drive 4 hours to the Illinois SCS . . . awesome. If we institute a rule like this then Chris actually becomes motivated to intentionally NOT qualify for Illinois, so then he would have the option to then pick another state? Or maybe with these rules he simply wouldn't be allowed to play anywhere??

I'm more than willing to investigate the ACTUAL IMPACT of an issue (just ask Taylor). Feel free to send me a list of states where this is a real issue, and we'll take a look into the rhyme and reason for why things are happening. I prefer that much more than hypothetical conjecture of a problem.

Just ask Taylor . . . who actually helped bring an issue to light that actually had an impact on the qualifying within the VA SCS. That has lead to a rules change for the 2016-17 season

I was 100% expecting OP to be from TX and be playing the Where in the World is Bob Matthews competing game.

What Josh said is pretty much what happened in AZ with 5.0+. All events are fairly valued, and you can't come in and win Zapcon and qualify now.

Warning >> this may surprise you Josh...

I like your thoughts on this Shimoda but think Josh has his points with the main motivation of the IFPA being to promote more competitive local public pinball.

I think WI a good example of the evolution of the SCS and relative impacts of out of state players. Year #1 we had a few out of staters that did just like you said, they did well in 1 or 2 of the big events in the state and thatw as more than enough to qualify.

It felt shitty that they came to WI SCS and acted like we were all scrubs. They used the WI SCS as their easiest path to the nationals. I was a big proponent for saying F the out of staters and Werdrick the massive toilet clogging SOB (this is said in jest). Reality is that it was kind of a slap in the face when some of these out of staters plainly said they were coming to WI for the first ever SCS because the WI players were an easier path than either IL or MN for them to get to Nationals. However, they were also right (maybe not how they all said it, but they were still factually correct).

Year 2 and WI stepped out game. We held more events (many in private homes). We invited the out of staters and some made the effort, while others did not. This biggest change was that more WI players got competitively better and if anything formed and even tighter group that is bashing it out on a regular basis. Year 2 of the SCS I think there was only 1 or 2 out of staters that even had a chance of qualifying for our SCS on the back of 1 or 2 issolated performances.

Year 3 and the # of events in WI is nothing short of crazy. Looking at this years qualifying you would have to go 24 deep to find a person with only 2 events and that person did not make the cut. In short, WI stepped up the amount of competitive play (even if it was done begrudginly at first) and in the long run it kind of all has begun to work out in the way you describe. This year is 100% WI based players and the few out of staters that even had the option/ would have qualified had to make it to all 3 of the majors in the state and perform well. This guys that do that are really part of the group anyway and they put int the effort to be part of the comminity.

I also guve those guys big respect that they have opted to play in theri own home state (We partly know that they opted out of WI because we are no onger a bunch of scrubs )

funny > I was slowly typing when you said this...

I swear Hilton and I did not text eachother before he posted this message

Get a room.

I will still say I would like to see an earlier cut off date for declaration of intended state to play (think of it as pencilled in). I think it would be reasonable for each member to have a slot in their IFPA profile where they denote "preferred SCS state" and that gets locked on Oct 31st of each year.

This would allow the vast majority of individuals to have a more accurate understanding of how/where to dedicate their time the last 2 months of the season.

Josh and I have discussed previously and there are some small situations where this gets tricky (i.e. state has a few big events in last 2 months but someone declared another state), but I liek the 80/20 rule and for 95% plus of the competitive states/players that would be a rarity.

The whole could be benefitted from this improvement and it would be relatively easy for each state rep to help sort out the few sticky situations where things change dramatically in the last 2 months.

A side positive is that peoepl declaring earlier creates a more honorable competition where a select few are not just picking their path to the nationals based on the competitive field in a specific state.

So you qualify for the Ohio SCS and Kentucky SCS . . . tell me your preference assuming these variables:

- You live in Florence, KY
- You would be the 1 seed in the Ohio SCS
- You would be the 16 seed in the Kentucky SCS
- Ohio State Championship is in Cincinnati, OH (13 miles away)
- Kentucky State Championship is in Bowling Green, KY (208 miles away)

Tell me why it's fair that you should be forced to choose traveling to Bowling Green, KY in this situation.

(especially knowing that if you just did a little worse in KY you maybe wouldn't have qualified, and then would have been able to choose Ohio - motivating you to NOT PLAY in any more KY events for fear of screwing yourself)

IMO this gives a disadvantage to players that 'play more', and that seems ridiculous.

If "circuit" events did not count towards states what affect would that have on all of this.

I love this discussion and can't wait to be able to compete more in tourneys. Hopefully this year I can do that.

Yeah. Those are very good points. I think KY is a bit of an outlier because of the the sheer lack of IFPA tournaments each year. I want to increase the number of tournaments in KY very badly, I just don't see how to do it with any sort of positive turnout right now. It's easy to sell a pinball tournament at a trendy barcade. Harder to at a comic book store in Florence KY (only option to have tournaments in NKY)

what are these changes?

The other wrinkle here is IFPA State Reps flat out don't know where the State Championship is located by October 1st. Most of them didn't know by January 1st lol.

Look at my Kentucky example, and tell me how this is fair:

- Based on those factors I 'declare' Ohio because it's 10 minutes away.

December of that year the IFPA Ohio Rep tells me an issue came up and he has to move the State Championship to Cleveland. Something comes up in Kentucky and the State Championship moves to Louisville, or worse I'm now forced to host the Kentucky SCS at my house in Florence or it's not going to happen at all.

Is it fair that I'm locked into Ohio, which is 262 miles away, or should I be able to help out the cause and help Kentucky so they can actually have an SCS?

I highly recommend state reps to communicate with the players on the SCS list to 'unofficially' gauge their interest. This is exactly what I did for Illinois.

I happen to have a father that was really interested in qualifying for the IL SCS, and our standings are made up mostly of Pinball Expo WPPR's so we have a large share of out of staters in our standings. I took it upon myself to dig and see who REALLY planned on playing in Illinois, and with that I was able to give my dad a 'to do' list during the last 10 weeks of the season of a goal to shoot for (the goal was 10 Illinois WPPR's). He ended up the #5 seed (29th in the state standings).

It would bring the KY IFPA tournament count to zero I know that for sure. Haha

IFPA endorsed tournaments that are held within multiple states will now only be counted in the state in which finals are held.

Probably depends on the state, but we have no interest in letting other pinball associations (PAPA in this case) somehow dictate the rules of our SCS based on external decisions they are making with choosing their list of Circuit Events based on the various factors they are evaluating.

Damn.. tried to make a joke and screwed it up .

I just thought he liked Indiana better.

I would say it is completely fair. The reality is just like everything else, the player base will self police for the greater good.

Much like the WI example where we had to get our crap together to make more in state events and hence grow the player base and the sport. Requesting state reps to get their crap together and declare host region/location by Oct 1st would be a good idea. Make it a requirement and it will happen.

I really think that players should be making the decision on where to play based on the state or group of people they desire to play with. I will throw back on you the request of real life examples. How many people/states out of the whole were actually impacted by these hypotheticals you provide?

I can tell you that 100% of WI players knew 12 months ago the event would be in Madison region this year. Next year it is planned for MKE if a host comes forward (lost our MKE rep as he moved out of state). The following year will be Appleton. The year after that Madison. Plans may change and people will just have to deal with that, but never have I seen a sport building state level competition where so many are left in the blind for the benefit of a few to make competitive decisions so late in a season.

The fact that Kentucky was on the verge of not happening right up until the end of the year had a butterfly effect on people choosing that state versus staying home. I definitely had a list of players that would have come to Illinois if Kentucky was imploding, because of the impact Kentucky had on the Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and West Virginia standings.

I can request that state reps get their crap together, but at some point everyone is volunteering their time to help the cause. Louisiana wasn't even going to have a State Championship at all, and then decided to do it AFTER the registration deadline was over.

I know that in Illinois we had an issue with respect to the original host and an Illinois qualifier who isn't allowed in their house. I was prepared to host if that player qualified, and our original host was prepared to take those duties on if the player didn't.

If we're spending time someone managing the back end of this declaration list, and then dealing with these one-off issues through some self policing nature, that's just more work that I don't personally want to handle. At some point we're not saving any time on the admin side because the registration process still has to be done anyway, and anyone wishing to change their declaration then what has to submit a reason why? We then have to go over the pros/cons of whether it's a valid reason to change or not?

I'm all for State Reps doing this on an 'unofficial' basis (mostly because it means that I'm not doing any of the actual work). If the reason for this is to educate your player base on where they actually stand, this unofficial monitoring should be more than enough.

I can easily pull up email addresses for any SCS standings at any point in time should you want to reach out to the top X in Wisconsin 'just to check' and see if anyone is leaning towards one state or the other, but I'm just not interested in handling any of these logistics in any sort of 'official' capacity.

How about a person is locked to their particular state unless another state's tourney happens to be closer? So like in Kansas, the tourney is in KC, Missouri based players could play in it rather than St. Louis. But a St. Louis player wouldn't be eligible to play in Kansas, as it's not the closest tourney.

whats the name of the tourney? Isnt it called state championships? So wouldnt it be you have to play in your state?

What you are trying to say is the same thing if you wanted to compete in the olympics, say i want to compete in a sport that mexico sucks at in the olympics. Can i go to mexico and compete for them since i have a better shot at making the team? (I am the number 1 person there for the sport and 16th in USA and im 1474 miles from mexico city but 2396 from new york.) no because it is a country specific thing. just as the state championships are state specific.

The IFPA state championships are the closest thing pinball has to the olympics. So would that be fair for someone to do in the olympics.

I would be happy to do so but it carries no weight without official IFPA backing.

I really do think it would translate into a greater positive for the SCS as a whole and while the first year of change may be tough, the reality is you are just shifting everything up 2 months for things to get solidified. People will fall in line and it will all be smooth after the first year.

Heck, just providing the option for declared SCS state in each players profile would start the ball rolling on self policing.

No worries with Michigan...we're pretty awesome over here.

Closer how, by straight mileage or possible freeway routes? What if a road is down due to construction?

Happens all the time. Watch any major sport that is in the Olympics.

EDIT: What if I'm a part time resident in Michigan and go to a college here? Technically I have a mailing address but I don't vote here, can the IFPA please take a look at my voting status or Drivers liecense to verify? Where the shit does it end?!?

Just make a residency rule. Enforce with the requirement that you must show ID and gas or electric utility bills for at least the previous six months to qualify as a resident. If you recently moved; maybe you don't qualify for that year.

Then there's the Mennonite/Amish issue. Alas, Ballyhoo, Jigsaw and Baffle Ball can be used. Must show horse registration papers.

It should go by your driver's license. Kinda like this: My son is being forced into Jury Duty near home even though he go to college out of the area. Driver's license & voter registration are not where he goes to college or rents an apartment. The nice Feds allowed him a deferment until June.

The Olympics are a massive worldwide event that brings in millions upon millions of dollars and has huge cultural significance. This is pinball.

Let people do what works best for them, it's all for such little prize anyways, we're just playing because we love to play.

Easy to say when you live in A2 or Detroit....not so easy when you live in the U.P. and those Wisconson push overs are just a stone's throw away!

The Cleveland crowd complained so much when this was proposed once, it had to be moved...

Yea, an "issue..."

But Cincinnati is clearly the better town...I mean I actually wanted to go there.

you are formally DQ'd from all WI events. We dont allow silly gloves for pinball

So here's another question... how fuzzy can we make the state lines?

Since NE Ohio will throw a fit if they ever have to drive to an SCS south of I70, and KY is woefully short on events, can I hold a tourney in Cincinnati and declare it as a Kentucky event? This would obviously be done at time of announcement so things are clear up front. Keep in mind >50% of KY population lives within 150 miles of Cincy...

You know there aren't many carbs in a five way or four way at Skyline/Gold Star /Dixie Chili resaurants. Enjoy!

Carbs are OK when I'm on vacation! Damn I do love me some Skyline too.

I guess no more trips to Wisconson then. I went to Madison once.

Once.

EDIT: Oh forgot aboot Milawakee...I'd go there fo sho; Great town.