Quoted from DNO:

I have run PLENTY of tournaments in CO, and operated games over 10 years, and am pretty much vested in the sport. (so I guess my opinion can count, and you won't try to diss me like you did Russell)
I also played in Nationals and won CO state this year, so you can try to tear down my opinion on that.
Nearly every bar that is played at in Colorado adds $50 to the prize pool, and the bar owners have never complained.
Perhaps if you had a reasonable conversation with one, you would have better luck.
The cash prizes at State have been crap, I look forward to seeing that increase and add to the prestige of the event.
Also, this will weed out the bullshit buddy tourneys that are "just for fun", and I think that's a good thing.
Play for some cash, make it interesting, and encourage actual location play. Not an insider boys club in Bob's garage.
Keep your WI tourneys all to yourself, have them non-sanctioned, they should be anyway.
Someone will prolly put one on and collect that $1 , and people will play and pay, and be ranked.
Plus side! Now you might not have other states playing in your SCS and winning it.

Quoted from AtomicChuck:

Thanks to those that run the IFPA for free. If you need to charge $1 for cost or administration fees im ok that. To collect money to give to the elite players in each state or national event I'm against that. Each year its the same 10 people dominating most events with a no name player sneaking in from time to time. I have invested a half million dollars in my facility and i can tell you i do it for the hobby and i run tournaments and leagues for the sport. Any TAX charged per event is like paying professionals more money to show up for something they were already coming to.anyhow

Quoted from ifpapinball:

I'm under the assumption we'll see an attrition rate here. There will be a shift of organizers that go from weekly reporting to monthly reporting (so you only pay one time for every 4 events). But we do have that data from 2016:
Wisconsin pool was $2598 . . . $1948 went to WI SCS, $650 to Nationals.
Here would have been the payouts for the top 16 State finalists (which will be a mandatory payout structure for all states):
1st - $584.61
2nd - $350.76
3rd - $233.84
4th - $155.90
5th through 8th - $77.95 each
9th through 16th - $38.97 each

This is logistically far more challenging for us. Right now we have an interface that deals directly with TD's, and this will simply be an extension of the results submission process. We can easily stage events through that same process we do now for approvals. Dealing with individual registration of 50,000 players and building that process from scratch is a far bigger nightmare.
We will definitely find out if what we're doing works or not . . . and we'll go from there. This whole process will be a Staples Easy Button press from being repealed if it tanks. We're at the points of having seen the player base grow to the level it has to 'play with our food' a bit and try some things. NOBODY (myself included) knows how it's going to play out.

Quoted from EmLover1970:

Both?

Quoted from EmLover1970:

Given how I've played in Hilton's charity events and played at MGC the last years with zero prize money, not sure how you can ask me that and be serious.

Quoted from ifpapinball:

Motivating players to MAKE the top 16 allows us to capture the interest of more players. In Illinois there was a huge level of interest to claim those 12th-16th seeded spots, with the understanding that most likely nobody was going to beat Zach (myself included as Hilton made sure to rub salt in that wound)
Focusing on being able to take those players fighting for the 12th-16th seeds and awarding them for making the cut is a strategy we're taking with this approach.
When it backfires, we'll change back.

Quoted from ifpapinball:

That was certainly one of the 'healthy consequences' we had on our Pros/Cons list. It was put on both lists

Quoted from ifpapinball:

#hiddenagendas

Quoted from DNO:

I hear KME is gonna qualify through WI for Nationals, allowing the Sharpe's to cash in IL!

Quoted from ifpapinball:

LOL their names are Colin and Charlotte

Quoted from DBLM:

In more pressing news, who's watching Wrestlemania tonight? Is this really going to be the Undertaker's last match?

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

it's going to be more then that just the moving of cash from events to IFPA just hope your local TD does not have more then $600 in 1 year to send in and then IFPA to SCS POOL will be an issue if it's over $600 and maybe $1200 and then If it's $10K then it's IRS audit / big paperwork TIME.

Quoted from goatdan:

I seriously don't have time for this, but in short...
It's all selective enforcement. By the letter of the law, the PGA tournament is illegal. They don't enforce it.
I sat in a room where it was confirmed to me that Chuck E Cheese is illegal (there is one in Brookfield) but I was told that was okay by the same people that enforce against us because they were "an established business".
Ultimately, the mgc will do fine with or without points, and I'm not saying that other things are going to run and have problems. I just won't be willing to do it, as I've been close enough to jail for one lifetime over pinball tournaments when I didnt even know we had an issue.
Oh, and why are the slot machines legal in bars in Wisconsin? Look what associations donate to certain politicians. Interestingly, the law that allows them didn't make them legal, they just made it illegal to enforce I'd there is less than a certain number of slots in one place.

Quoted from ifpapinball:

Wisconsin is one of our (Raw Thrills) most successful states for Big Buck Hunter tournaments.
Sarah Erlandson is like the Keith Elwin of BBH and has won the women's championship pretty much every year we hold it. She's insanely good.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/land-of-10000-stories/2015/10/06/big-buck-hunter-sara-erlandson-beldenville/73461834/

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Well, Bowen is all about the "let's get everybody into it!" thing, to the point where it seems to be his top goal. But what's wrong with separating the wheat from the chaff? I mean, the PGA tour isn't like 50 elites and then 1,000 scrubs. Everybody on the tour is good. If some super casual player who really isn't very good doesn't want to pony up $1 I don't see how that hurts anybody.
At some point maybe you just divide this into a "professional" ranking group and an "amateur" ranking group and tax folks accordingly. Like almost every suggestion in this thread it sounds like a total pain in the ass but hey why not throw it into the ring.

Yes, obviously. But then the people aren't paying up are probably scrubs who you shouldn't be feasting off of anyway. I do see a real potential for this measly buck tax to clean up some of the worst selfie/super league abuse that we've been seeing.

Quoted from EmLover1970:

Is that going to be a state wide vote? When does Wexit happen?

Quoted from EmLover1970:

I roomed with two of them last year, and haven't you been to Pinburgh at least twice? But what you are getting at is that you don't have the time for multiple pinball trips a year. I get that. It's why I did the day trips to your house. I could afford a trip if it was only a day or two. I'm getting too old to handle being up 42 hours in a 46 hour stretch... damn, getting old sucks.
Your question about how many are for cash and how many are not. Most have some small amount involved, like $5, for East Side survivor, but the Super League is just coin drop and every four player group at it's finals gets $25 to the winner paid by the operator. Blainbrook runs leagues, which cost money ($30), but it's spread out really well. They also run free tournaments that have operator funded pay outs. The one I ran in March had a player optional $5 entry fee (funny, no Wisconsin players to be seen), which went over really well. Only 4 (I think) out of 29 chose not to opt in.

Quoted from Whysnow:

hoping that the majority of people that support the charity event do so for the fun of the chaity and the team event aspect. I refuse to spend even 1 dollar from the charity pool in order to donate to IFPA prize pool. It will no longer be an IFPA sanctioned event after this year *if they go forward as planned

Dan has made it clear he will not take the legal risk and I support him and hope people dont try to put the entire event at risk by pushing him to.

Quoted from MobRoller:

If this is implemented, which I hope it is not, you will also HAVE to implement a play in your own state/province rule. I could easily see someone coming to our province from WA and winning our one big tournament (Vancouver Flipout). This would more than qualify them for the provincials. They come back and win provincials and go to nationals. That would mean that 100% of our fees/taxes would go to someone out of state/province.

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

knock it off you guys, you are making us wisconsin people look like suckers.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I never realized the national competitive pinball scene relied so much on the way the winds were blowing in Wisconsin.
Truly the cheesehead state is the straw that stirs the drink!

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

a fucking dollar? what is this Thailand? I thought it was $5 for a full night with breakfest?

Quoted from ifpapinball:

28

Quoted from TaylorVA:

Will someone post a link to the WI law that prevents cash prizes? I googled but couldn't find anything that seemed to fit. Thanks

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

the PGA is illegal here because of it.

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

no, i'm saying we still have it, but it is technically illegal by WI law. The same law that makes it illegal for us to get trophies and prize money from pinball tournaments.
I did specify that the representatives look the other way, because of all the rich buddies that partake in the PGA.

Quoted from epthegeek:

So if EBs are off and Replays are off pinball tournaments with 'purses' are legal?

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

But “Bookmaking” means the receiving, recording or forwarding of a bet or offer to bet on any contest of skill.
so having a outside prize pool may fall under Bookmaking and in no way the IFPA can be seen as Pari-mutuel

Quoted from bingopodcast:

Does anyone know if WI law treats pinball as a game of skill? I haven't seen anything countering the one ball/bingo laws... yet.
Remember, lawmakers from the 40s/50s didn't think of pinball in the same way that we do today.

Quoted from tullster:

My understanding is...That in the Wisconsin law somewhere from WAY back, Pinball is still considered to have an element of chance to it, and that lumps it in with gambling... End of story. The law needs to be changed, but hasn't and probably won't unless you get the Tavern League and WAMO to push for a change in the law. And that probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Quoted from goatdan:

They don't care because they don't believe it.

You're onto it, but also wrong.
Youre all looking at the wrong part of the law. I'm going to go load a big truck because I can figure out how to do that. Find me at the show when I have free time and I can explain everything that people are overlooking.
But again, in short, what we do is technically illegal. So is a ton of stuff. There is really crappy enforcement.
Don't change the new IFPA rules for MGC, I've done just fine without prizes for years now too.
Play, seriously, big truck. In the rain. Anyone in the area want to help, pm me and I can send you the address. Hell, you can tell me how I'm wrong about the law in person!

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

dan and I have talked for hours on this subject trying to figure out a way around it. I forgot what section of the law this pertains to.

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

but we can always use help, the more resources the better. if you want to help in the battle, we are all for it.

Quoted from Whysnow:

exact same scenario in Madison. There will be 48 casual events this year and only 5-6 of the typical 16-30 people that attend will have any shot of making SCS. Those are the same players that also attend the large events (MGC, MRP, Wauna, Tom's). Quite a few of the casual but active players would drop $20 in donation to the state champ and national champ combined.
Rob, I dont think we managed to chat IFPA junk since we were having so much pinball fun, but needless to say... there will be an entirely free WI based alternative that closely assimilates the current system tracking. If you know and good web developers or coders that want to donate time to help then please let me know. There are a few guys much smarter in that world that I, and they are starting to get something together so we can test it out this year before needing to implement it for 2018.

Quoted from ifpapinball:

Player A will get points for finishing in 1st place, Player B will get points for finishing in 2nd place. Those will be the only two players listed in the standings if you pulled up the results on the IFPA wesbite.

Quoted from earthvsmattGR:

But how do the IFPA rankings work for those 2 players then?
Say out of 16 people 2 pay- let's call them player A and B.
Player A finishes 3rd, and player B finishes 9th-
Will player A and B get points for 3rd and 9th or for finishing 1st & 2nd (for IFPA ranking purposes)

Quoted from DanQverymuch:

And they will only get the points for a two player tournament, right? Which is practically nothing.

Quoted from TheLaw:

My god if they did this in Wisconsin the goddamn Staties would be in there toot sweet raid'n the joint

Quoted from ifpapinball:

https://www.ifpapinball.com/coming-2018-official-ifpa-challenge-matches/
Just FYI for anyone interested.

Quoted from ifpapinball:

It impacts your IFPA player RATING.
You can challenge and play the match before submitting to our calendar. We plan on just using the calendar process to generate the results submission that would be needed for you to submit. No preapproval needed, just consent from your opponent.
We're working on potentially developing a system to live challenge another player through our website/app, with the results then automatically just flowing through to our system. (White collar solution)
Worst case we can 'fake' the calendar submissions on these to be able to get the results in the system. (Blue collar solution)

Quoted from epthegeek:

Somebody needs to whip up a web app (or mobile app I guess) to easily do these. Enter player names, start challenge, pick game, record win/loss, select next game, etc. wonder how hard it would be to roll into matchplay.events

Quoted from ifpapinball:

lol we're just putting the final touches on the payment module of our website that TD's will be using, so I'll go with "no".
That overwhelming silence you hear is the sound of acceptance
(Wisconsin not withstanding, although I'm sure Hilton has his emulated wppr system for WI ready to go at this point... it's been like five months)

Quoted from Whysnow:

also, I am not giving Tom any flack (just to be clear) and I think each TD needs to make their own decision on what works for them.
I personally wont be running any IFPA events in 2018, but that is a personal decision for me to make just like it is Toms decision to make.
I do think when the largest public events in a state are no longer IFPA, then it makes it kind of silly for the whole system to happen at all based on a minority subset (much like it is silly to allow events to be partial IFPA based on the players that buy in if a TD wants to do that), but that is the fractures the IFPA has set in motion with the new rules.
I guess it will be interesting to see how this experiment plays out. For me it sucked away most of the fun I used to get from competitive pinball.

Quoted from ifpapinball:

In all seriousness it will work itself out. Hilton has our entire database of results to have his Wisconsin model all ready to go for 2018. WI players should have a variety of motivations to keep playing competitively outside of the official SCS process. FUN should still and always be the priority.
I've received multiple emails from ops in Wisconsin that plan on registering their events for IFPA sanctioning. The only way to see how this plays out is to let the 2018 season do its thing.
We do have a couple of potential SCS tweaks up for debate right now (discussion is over on Tilt Forums - http://tiltforums.com/t/suggestion-for-2018-scs/3163).

Quoted from ifpapinball:

Try this:
http://tiltforums.com/t/suggestion-for-2018-scs/3163

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

We read about 25 pages of cheeseheads telling us they were taking their cheddar, going home, and starting their own $1-fee-free WPPR knockoff system. Cause how difficult could that be? Those Chicago ripoff artists threw this shit together in 10 minutes and now are trying to scam us all for a buck!
For months we waited with baited breath for the big unveiling!! And now it turns out it was too hard?
So we are back at square one and get to hear all about it again. Sweet.
Maybe the $1 per person per tournament fee is cheaper and easier than coming up with your own system? Who saw that coming?

Quoted from smokedog:

We at SAPP will be taking the dollar from the prize pool of each tournament. No one cared when we brought it up.

Quoted from yancy:

He didn't say you should try it behind the cheddar curtain. He said that's what his group will do.

Quoted from LesManley:

In over 8 years of competitive pinball playing I can honestly say I do not believe I have ever entered a pinball tournament that was free to play in it and/or did not offer a prize pool of any kind.
Here in the events I run, it will simply come out of the prize pool. Casual players won't miss it cause they don't win anyway...usually... and competitive players will have the chance to earn it back at the SCS. I figure if anything this change hurts me more then casuals as I will lose out on prize money in most events and I have one shot to win it back at the end of the year. Plus, every event here gives back to all players with free pizza and/or free beer and/or free random prize giveaways too. You honestly would be a fool to not play in events here locally, even if you go out first round you get all your money back in pizza, beer and prizes regardless.

Quoted from ZenTron:

I could of played in the MGC Tournament without purchasing tickets to the show? If no, it wasn't free.

Quoted from ZenTron:

MAGfest for one

Quoted from ifpapinball:

You missed my comment about the formula being used for the players AFTER 1st place.
First place simply gets whatever the full value is calculated out to be (Base Value + TVA) * (TGP%).
In your example let's just say the 10 points is the TOTAL.
Per our distribution formula, 1 POINT is distributed in a linear fashion, while the other 9 POINTS are distributed in a dynamic fashion.
So for 2nd place on down you're exactly right with respect to how the LINEAR points are distributed.
Just to help you more, here's a real world example from one of the tournaments you played in:
https://www.ifpapinball.com/tournaments/view.php?t=18370
1  Hilton Jones 7.4
2  Maya Nigrosh 3.57
3  Sean Spindler 2.11
4  Thomas LaTendresse 1.31
5  Bryon Schmitz 0.85
6  Karl Luhrs 0.61
7  Luke Dillon 0.48
8  Nick Stanton 0.42
9  Brodde Peterson 0.37
10  Shane Kloppenburg 0.32
11  Garrett Peterson 0.28
12  Zach Starr 0.23
13  Jason LaTendresse 0.18
14  Mike Williams 0.14
15  Mark Hagen 0.09
16  Steven P Jones 0.05
Here's the Linear + Dynamic breakdown of that result from our database:
1 0.74 6.66 7.4
2 0.69 2.88 3.57
3 0.65 1.46 2.11
4 0.6 0.71 1.31
5 0.55 0.3 0.85
6 0.51 0.1 0.61
7 0.46 0.02 0.48
8 0.42 0 0.42
9 0.37 0 0.37
10 0.32 0 0.32
11 0.28 0 0.28
12 0.23 0 0.23
13 0.18 0 0.18
14 0.14 0 0.14
15 0.09 0 0.09
16 0.05 0 0.05

Quoted from Whysnow:

I would like to see the change to all home leagues being forced into 1 x year reporting.
I think that would be a good shift. If we are honest, these leagues are essentially private events and a random cant just walk in any month and play (we added a sub list to our local collector league to make this more of an option and make it more fair, but we still require and understandable vetting and randoms cant just show up). The current rules have incentivized IFPA hungy leagues to kind of bastardized their formats from the traditional idea of a year long league and instead run mini-seasons to maximize points. I know a few route only players that get screwed by this and have rightfully taken offense to it. I have had an internal debate about this for a while. Leagues will of course follow the incentives, so only natural to have them running the mini-seasons under the current system.
I would like to see this compromise and just make it a rule that events held in private locations as part of an ongoing league must either report individually (i.e. each house reports as their own event; which will prevent the point maximizing) or must report as a single annual league/ 1 x per year; preference is that a league report as a 1x per year event.

Quoted from Xerico:

That is awesome! Would you consider creating a google sheet and sharing?
Marcus

Quoted from Whysnow:

Yeah, Madison League allows subs which was a nice compromise to make it more open and has worked out nicely for that effect.
Yes, they also run the mini-season format which I have realized is kind of silly. It was done to maximize WPPRs throughout the year as that si hwo the current system works.
I assume Fox valley does the same thing? Basically run 2 months combined in order to maximize WPPRs and then report 6 times a year. Do you still crown an end of year champ based off the combined mini-seasons?
After being part of a colelctors league for a few years, I think it si more appropriate to report 1x per year. However, unless the IFPA puts it in the rules then the leagues will just gravitate towards the outcome we currently have (assuming points are their goal)

Quoted from Whysnow:

talking about private home leages which are effectively private unless you know someone or get in at the start of a season.
I have no issue with completely public locations where anyone can join at any time doing whatever they want.
I have always struggled with the desire to maximize WPPRs vs being really public for the 'private' collector leagues.

Quoted from Black_Knight:

Still don't understand your hangup here. Do you think people are cheating, or is it unfair that people have collections, or should they have to pay to play on location to count?
How would there be any competitive pinball in GA if we had to play in public?

Quoted from Whysnow:

I dont have any problem with that and welcome players to feel free to do so. Please just let us know in advance so we can coordinate with the location owners and maintain that relationship/ ensure they are OK with timing and dont have other conflicting events planned.

Quoted from Whysnow:

I heard moderators just closed all the threads

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

502 error site seems 100% dead

Quoted from 85vett:

Shoot, I really don't care about the $1. Everyone is talking about driving competitive pinball and yet we allow things like the below to be "acceptable". Do you really think this represents the best players in a state? It's all about how many events some people play. Some type of average needs to be implemented to truly represent the best in a state.
I removed the names to not call out people specifically since nobody is breaking any rules (and most of them are really nice stand up guys) but can you really pose a good argument that the green accompanied by the yellow boxes shows that these players are the better players than what you see in the blue boxes? I stopped at 16 as that is the cut off.
Yeah yeah yeah - I know the responses already. Why don't you just create more events or play in more. That's not the spirit of what is trying to be accomplished. Those who play in 50+ events in a year shouldn't be rewarded nor should those that can only do 15 or so events a year. Seriously, some people have families and forcing them to leave them to play pinball multiple times a week so that they can compete is putting priority on the wrong things in life.
This doesn't drive competitive play, it pushes it out. I know several players that have given up even trying because of exploits like this occurring.
I've seen the "numbers" of what it would look like if you limit entries right now which only impacts 2-3 people (which I argue is substantial in a max 16 person field) but the flaw in those numbers right now is we still have 3.5 months left of entries that will make it even more lopsided.

Quoted from 85vett:

Shoot, I really don't care about the $1. Everyone is talking about driving competitive pinball and yet we allow things like the below to be "acceptable". Do you really think this represents the best players in a state? It's all about how many events some people play. Some type of average needs to be implemented to truly represent the best in a state.
I removed the names to not call out people specifically since nobody is breaking any rules (and most of them are really nice stand up guys) but can you really pose a good argument that the green accompanied by the yellow boxes shows that these players are the better players than what you see in the blue boxes? I stopped at 16 as that is the cut off.
Yeah yeah yeah - I know the responses already. Why don't you just create more events or play in more. That's not the spirit of what is trying to be accomplished. Those who play in 50+ events in a year shouldn't be rewarded nor should those that can only do 15 or so events a year. Seriously, some people have families and forcing them to leave them to play pinball multiple times a week so that they can compete is putting priority on the wrong things in life.
This doesn't drive competitive play, it pushes it out. I know several players that have given up even trying because of exploits like this occurring.
I've seen the "numbers" of what it would look like if you limit entries right now which only impacts 2-3 people (which I argue is substantial in a max 16 person field) but the flaw in those numbers right now is we still have 3.5 months left of entries that will make it even more lopsided.

Quoted from 85vett:

Sounds like the "everyone should get a trophy" mentality of the world these days.
I'm of the opinion that only those that prove their skill is one of the top 16 in a state should get to play.

Quoted from Whysnow:

kind of off topic, but what happened to the pin-golf world league thing for this year?
I thought I remembered some sort of thing where there was supposed to be a conglomerate ranking for all pin-golf related events for the year?

Quoted from Whysnow:

Where are the current "tour" standings?

Quoted from ifpapinball:

That's exactly right.
I thought we had made the process complicated enough that we would destroy the Pin-Golf format for good (j/k).
We obviously have a ton on our plate right now, but seeing how the Pin-Golf formats definitely survived the "Tour requirements" this year, I do have an item on the agenda to make something of this at some point.
It might end up being something as simple as having your event on the "Tour" gets the winner of your event free entry into the IFPA Pin-Masters each year ($100 value).

Quoted from flynnibus:

The FSPA rule set handles this with playoffs, a 10 week season, and handicapping via grouping of the players.
Even after the full season... most players are still within one week's points of making the playoffs... and even one point is relevant after 10 weeks of play.
Sometimes people think they are a lost cause, but I can't remember anyone dropping out due to that. The handicapping keeps competition tight... and breaks down only when the player skill gap is too huge.

Quoted from DNO:

Has anyone noticed that Bowen is now a suppressed player?

Quoted from Pinzap:

I’m trying to figure out how to ask this without it coming across as a complaint. Ok... probably won’t succeed. But has it already been discussed how the top 16 in each state get a BIG head start on standings against the rest of the field for the next years SCS? They get points for the SCS that anyone outside the top 16 can’t compete for in the current year. I understand that on the macro level (i.e. multi year standings) that everyone competing in any tourneys has a chance to go for those points... and it makes sense to me that they should get points in the overall standings in some fashion to help rank them in their overall WPPR standing. But, when you are looking at the points in a certain year it would seem to me to create an unfair uphill battle for those not in that group to work against. Maybe this is the wrong thread, but I just noticed it when looking at the initial standings by state for most states that only have the SCS and maybe 1 or 2 more events submitted. Should those points maybe count toward overall WPPR standing, but in the prior year for the yearly standings? Just curious...