FYI, this will mark the end of the MGC being able to award IFPA points, and is technically illegal under state laws. There is *no way* to make a tournament legal in Wisconsin with money involved, no matter who pays it, and no matter when it is paid out.

I don't know if other states have rules like ours, but participating in this in Wisconsin is technically breaking the law.

This is the driving factor behind the MGC tournament being completely free and handing out no actual prizes. Other people in the state, you may want to speak with me before agreeing to collect this to understand the legal ramifications. I won't technically be free for a week with the show coming up, but afterwards I can tell you that this is illegal. For everyone's purposes, as those who know me know I was threatened with jail time for running our tournament (yes, for real), you will probably not want to participate in this.

This isn't county, it's statewide. So far, Brookfield is the only one to enforce against a pinball tournament, but I know that other municipalities enforce for other reasons.

No, collecting the fee and awarding the top player a slot there is also illegal.

Josh, if you'd like, give me like 10 days and give me a call. Honestly, if you are completely set on doing this, Wisconsin should be exempted due to the fact it's illegal here. I can give you the complete background of it - it doesn't really bother me one way or another as I never have time to actually play in tournaments nowadays - but it will create a huge headache here.

This still doesn't avoid the law. Players would have to both be exempt from winning prizes in state and nationally.

There are particular laws in Wisconsin that make this illegal. If there is any sort of pot, paid for in any way, for future tournaments you would be invited to based on your current play, AND that all tournaments you need to qualify from have to pay it or you can't, you have the definition of what is illegal in Wisconsin.

What is enforced is something different often, but I guarantee we couldn't do it any more with the mgc, and I have heard of issues in both Madison and Green Bay with other tournaments (not pinball) running up against the same rule.

This is something that potentially exposes every tournament to it, and again Josh you should call me, there is no way around it other than ensuring Wisconsin players never pay in and never get paid out in any way.

Unless you have a bunch of money to pay people to change the law for you, something I don't have.

From what I gather about our state, that takes about a 100k "donation".

If you're serious, I could get you "secretly" in touch with the people who told me I didn't have enough money to convince them to fix the law.

And, by the way, I'm sure that some people think in kidding. I wish I was.

I'm done though, have much more important things to do five days before mgc than worry about something I already know what my answer is for next year.

I seriously don't have time for this, but in short...

It's all selective enforcement. By the letter of the law, the PGA tournament is illegal. They don't enforce it.

I sat in a room where it was confirmed to me that Chuck E Cheese is illegal (there is one in Brookfield) but I was told that was okay by the same people that enforce against us because they were "an established business".

Ultimately, the mgc will do fine with or without points, and I'm not saying that other things are going to run and have problems. I just won't be willing to do it, as I've been close enough to jail for one lifetime over pinball tournaments when I didnt even know we had an issue.

Oh, and why are the slot machines legal in bars in Wisconsin? Look what associations donate to certain politicians. Interestingly, the law that allows them didn't make them legal, they just made it illegal to enforce I'd there is less than a certain number of slots in one place.

Oi. Spending too much time reading this. In short...

The Roger Sharpe case has nothing to do with Wisconsin's law. I spoke with him about it, it doesn't apply.

Yes, the enforcement thing it could probably be taken down by, but on a show that generates a gross that has never reached five figures yet, I'm not going to waste my time. Additionally, just being real here, the pinball tournament doesn't bring in any money. Before we gave out prizes, we lost money on it every year. Now with no prizes, I seriously doubt any real serious players are skipping PAPA to play in it. And even last year when PAPA didn't run on the same weekend, it wasn't like people were traveling across the country to play in it and then doing nothing else. It's one feature for our attendees, who do a lot of other stuff.

As to how we got enforced, it's a long story that I don't have time to talk about. Like I said, ultimately, it simply means we are done, and I would recommend against it to anyone else who doesn't want to try doing it in court. Having said that, I purposely insulated us as much as possible when it happened, so I don't know that it matters to anyone but us.

I wasn't saying that to you specifically, but just to point it out - it isn't feasible for us.

And again, everyone just needs to trust me on this. The reason it is illegal has NOTHING to do whether pinball is a game of skill or chance, and everything to do with how the law is worded.

I wish I did, but I do not. It would be a weird thing to lie about though.

Honestly, once everything went down a few years ago, I worked together with state (not local) authorities to figure out workarounds. There is a big long story here that I'm going to save because not enough time, but in short - it is what it is. And, because we figured out workarounds to make things work at our show, I don't feel the need to do much else about it. I know that a few people were very concerned, but participation in our tournament hasn't been affected by the fact there isn't prizes. In fact, we have had more people participate and, as our tournament people will tell you, everyone got a whole lot nicer when there wasn't money on the line, so I'm totally the wrong guy to ask to care about changing it because I think it works better for our show as is.

Having said that, I did enjoy awarding the IFPA points because as a regional show, it's nice to have a large tournament. I'll miss doing that, but again - I don't think that it will materially affect participation or attendance levels for the entire event. I just wish that it wasn't being done exactly like it is, but i wasn't asked and that's okay - it's clear that when PAPA runs on the same dates as you nearly every year and you don't have awards, why in the heck would I be asked anyway? The players who want to be the best at tournaments aren't picking MGC over PAPA anyway

And the positives, by the way - we can go back to running Clock Chaos the way we used to do it before the IFPA rules made it almost worthless for points by the original format. There are positives.

It's actually very similar to what I told the state about the tournaments - we don't run them to make money or anything like that. We run them because people enjoy them. I *do* think IFPA points are a fun thing to do, and I also *do* think it's a neat hook to get a worldwide player ranking. I *don't* think it will ruin the tournaments if we don't use them.

Having said all that, I also totally DO get why they are trying this. The hope is to try to make the whole thing into a more serious endeavor so that yes, those top players could potentially do this for money year round, and then it is easier to get other places to sponsor and promote. It's hard to get ESPN2 or whatever to come cover a tournament where it's just some guys and gals on the weekend. It's a lot easier if the top six players (or whatever number) travel the country playing and showing their skills full time. I don't think the fee is crazy unreasonable, I just know *in my own circumstances* this will be the last year I can do it comfortably.

I said it that way because a lot of people constantly tell me I must be wrong about it and that I don't know what Im talking about. I've spent hours down the rabbit hole. You didn't, but I've had players accuse me of purposely lying about this for whatever reason, and people literally flat out tell me I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about.

I sort of bring it on myself because our show is very open with everything, although certain things (like this whole bull) I purposely spun to put the best foot forward on it. It benefits no one if I am in a public fight with legislators who don't care.

Like I said, ultimately I don't need people to believe me, it just is what it is.

This goes for pretty much everything up here. Video slots in bars is one that I know. And hell, there was mining operations that wanted favorable permits and blatantly made huge cash donations to get exactly what they wanted.

Sadly, most people don't care.

Either because it's not enforced against it (likely) or because the association paid for it to be exempt (I don't think this has happened with pool).

Oh, and if it's on Milwaukee, there are other reasons.

I have to keep deleting stuff I type because of how stupid the law is and I don't want to get anyone I know in specific trouble... Argh!

I'm not willing to test that theory.

Thank you for someone believing that I know what I'm talking about.

I'm not going to get into it now. I don't actually care that much. I do know what I'm talking about. No one has to believe me, but I know.

They don't care because they don't believe it.

You're onto it, but also wrong.

Youre all looking at the wrong part of the law. I'm going to go load a big truck because I can figure out how to do that. Find me at the show when I have free time and I can explain everything that people are overlooking.

But again, in short, what we do is technically illegal. So is a ton of stuff. There is really crappy enforcement.

Don't change the new IFPA rules for MGC, I've done just fine without prizes for years now too.

Play, seriously, big truck. In the rain. Anyone in the area want to help, pm me and I can send you the address. Hell, you can tell me how I'm wrong about the law in person!

Between your email tonight and this thread being bumped, and me catching up on all that we missed, we should chat sometime soon.

I need to know if I'm going to hold, "THE MOST GINORMOUS CASUAL pinball TOURNAMENT in the UNIVERSE OMG WUT!!!!11eleventy!1!" which I'm seriously thinking about naming it, or if we can figure something out. Based on your email and the challenge thing, you may have created a legal loophole that I'm comfortable with.

Which I guess means I should check and ensure we would be the biggest pinball tournament not competing under IFPA points if that happens anyway.

And for anyone armchair quarterbacking your lawyer statements about how I'm an idiot and wrong about Wisconsin law, it doesn't matter to me if you don't understand my reasons for doing things the way that I do, it matters that I do. Additionally, I remain unwilling for various reasons which I think are valid to fully explain the problems we have ran into online. I understand that this seems weird and by doing random Google searches, it appears I must be wrong, but I'm not willing to risk sitting even one night in jail for something as ultimately meaningless in the long term as hosting a pinball tournament. A number of people, including Josh, has spoken with me directly about our issues, and that's what matters.

Oh, and I almost forgot - I'm also in no way opposed to this being a thing that the IFPA does and I understand why they are attempting to do it. I just have personal reservations based on a specific situation for our state, as well as one that is selectively enforced, but has been against us in the past, probably because as we've grown, it's easier to notice us. I actually agree, in principal, with the idea, and hope that a workaround to keep it so that I am comfortable can be had. If not, I completely understand if we can't do it, and hold no ill will against anyone. I honestly don't think it would affect our tournament participation much, nor am I concerned about attendance dropping over it.

This post is pure Wisconsin.

Oh, and I should add, YOUR TIME AIN'T FREE!

Yeah, the rest of that show sucks. Nice certificates though.

I know, I just also know that Magfest is better with a better "free" tournament, and that I must be an idiot who doesn't understand the law.

None of which you said of course, but since I hear a lot of the same stuff, sometimes I want to be a snarky ass You just happened to catch it.

Aha! Confirmed! We have *something* else to do there!

Having said that, while yes it was in the hall near the entry, we did ask that people have wristbands for it. We had thought about putting it on the "other" side of the paywall but that created a host of different problems, and none of them solved the main thing we were trying to fix.

Yeah, me too, but it's not my choice.

We do have nice certificates though. I probably signed the one on your gameroom

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how many people I have seen with theirs framed. I think most people understand it is the best we could do. I'd like to bring back trophies too.

It's fascinating that we can give out actual trophies for best in show, but not for anything else.

Nobody knew until a day or at most two before the show because I wasn't "informed" until just before that. We did our best to share as quickly and appropriately as possible, while also giving it as best a spin as possible.

I still have some of those trophies in storage.

That was the year that the police actually came and searched the event about three times. Fun times.

Just for the record, I'm sorry. Rereading my words from last night, it sounded like i remained a snarky ass, and that wasn't my intention.

That year, my love of tournaments - and to be frank running the whole damn show - really took a big hit. It has since been buoyed a lot by the understanding of the actual people who have understood and participated since, including yourself.

I do get annoyed when people who don't participate feel the need to tell me that I'm doing it wrong. They weren't there for the police searches, they weren't there for the meetings, and they expect I can just go online and explain everything with no problem so they can pick it apart and say I'm wrong.

And Magfest is better I'm sure, I've heard that before!

What I will say is this - since the tournaments went free, and this counts for all our tournaments, we have had more players in a better mood than before. The competition got better, the people that run the tournament went from really disliking certain aspects of it to loving it, and the finals have all ran smoother because people are playing for what I feel is the right reason - fun.

If we aren't able to do the ifpa points this year, which I think is a real possibility, we will just continue to do things that are fun. It would open the door to us doing some ridiculous stuff. And I'd be totally fine with that, as I think would most of the people attending.

It still wouldn't be as good as Magfest I'm sure, but hey, it would be fun and that's all I can do.

Do you have a Joust?

I have Viza War but it sucks and I hate moving it, and Alvin G Soccer Ball. If I get my act together I also have a pair of NBAFB, but realistically I won't have my act *that* together by the show. One of those NBAs is like a pile of parts...

I'm always open to doing wacky head to head stuff, so long as the games and someone to help run it is there.

Let me put it this way, if you'd like to use it, I'm all for it. I don't know who I could get to manage the tournament, but I could easily set it up for registration and whatnot if anyone wanted to.

Let's talk more in a non Ifpa thread. In short, I'm good for whatever works best, but I don't have enough time on Joust to know. It's actually my least favorite head to head game, although Viza War is a close second.