(Topic ID: 185444)

IFPA Charging Fees for Tournaments in 2018

By Eric_S

6 years ago


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#686 6 years ago
Quoted from Hi-Fi:

This policy of having the casual player fund a couple elite players goes against that.

You mean like every tournament with entry fees? You mean like every person who plays at Pinburg has knowing they have no chance at winning?

People are acting like money has never been asked for before to compete.

If you want to run free events and not fund them from anywhere... ok... then they simply aren't sanctioned events. I don't get all the uproar from the self proclaimed most important TD and pinball operator in the midwest. Stop trying to stuff the calendar with free events trying to earn points.

At least Larry and others have good points about funding events not applicable to you, etc.

#688 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

This has been covered - basically it would be a huge pain in the ass to administer.
Plus, this would be the ultimate scrub-scarer. What casual play is gonna sign up for 5 bucks? So totally anathema to the "get everybody involved" thing, if that's what is important.

Even the simplest web forums have worked out how to handle recurring memberships and payments through numerous online payment systems. I don't think it needs to be as hard as they make it. Certainly not as hard as managing this with EVERY event.... instead of hopaving people self service on a annual basis.

#689 6 years ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

Most of my players like the IFPA points, but not for the reason you might think. We don't use IFPA points to gauge our ranking with the rest of the world. We use them to haggle each other when one of us is higher than the other. No one cares what their world rank is because none of us are good enough for it to matter.
I suspect everyone would be fine with just instituting our own ranking system to use for bantering.

It sounds to me like your just been riding on ifpa ranking because it offered you something instead of doing it yourself. Just replace that with a stats systems like the league scoring system hosted by papa.

#796 6 years ago

Pinball still keeps its crown of the hobby with the worst cheapskates.

Player registration fees... league dues... entry fees... coin drop... everyone isfine with and dont nitpick where the money goes.... but a $1 ifpa fee... holy s&@$! Why would i want to subsidize other players!

Amazing

#808 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

seems like a pretty obvious difference to me. Those all support local pinball.

So does the SCS... unless you are clinging to the 'funding the big dogs' argument you keep bringing up... which is really a whine about paying for 'no perceived value to yourself'.

Quoted from Whysnow:

this leaves the city and goes to elite players.
I am not sure why it is so difficult for some to understand that.

Because the expectation that everything stays and returns to me IS A FALLACY. When I pay coin drop... that money goes to the location to do whatever they want with... who whines about what the owner does with his take?

My league dues? They support an organization that isn't just my local league. We've been doing that for 25 years... and GASP... the sky didn't fall! I've been paying entry fees at major events for decades, and never won.

In fact, I've paid for entries to events with the sole intention of 'funding the larger effort' with zero expectation of return because I know the money going in, is a necessary portion of making this all work. We don't have angels funding everything like Kevin Martin everywhere (tho.. the papa circuit funding is cool).

Getting the prize pools up to elevate the prominence of the game is part of strategy. If you don't like that portion of competitive pinball, then don't feel obligated to make your events part of that. 99.9% of players would never know the difference if your 'adminstrative costs' included sending a portion of your dues/fees went to the IFPA.

Our biggest leagues with the most loyal following are NOT COMPETITIVE LEAGUES. And know what... the players all pay their dues and don't fuss that the 'better players' benefit more than the casual players in terms of cash payouts.

You've made this the 'its all about hilton' thread yet again... because you run around like the rest of the world is exactly like you and you can't see past your own nose. So you have special circumstances in WI because of your legal setup... ok, so let's talk about WI in its own case.. not act like we are a community of 3000 hiltons.

#811 6 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I think it makes a lot of sense. Why should they get a carry from the casuals that never plan to win the big pot of money at the end. The pot of money should come from other elite players who all want to win the money...not from someone who is having their first tournament experience.

Because it's a prize pool... not gambling.

I can't believe you all are arguing "players who are more likely to win, should pay more than another player". WTF, are you assigning odds to players when they register now?

And who is going to buy in when their level of reward declines the better you do??

If you want different levels of risk/buyin... you have different levels of events.

#817 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

so you are feeling entitled to others paying in for your prize pool because you have been playing pinball for 20 years... and want a biugger prize pool, but are unwilling to just up the ante form your own pocket???!!! WTH! glad that is cleared up.
Sorry but I would love to see you explain this in person to new players as a tournament for their first or second time playing.
Casual person >>"Hey DNO, why do we pay and extra buck for each event now"
DNO >>"Because I have been playing pinball for 20 years and you should be paying in so I have a shot at a bigger prize pool at the SCS"
Casual person >> "what is the SCS? can I play?"
DNO >> " Well the chance is slim to none, but sure" "It is usually an event where the top 25-30 player in each state duke it out for 16 total spots, but with years of practice and competition you may eventually be good enough and play enough to earn a spot"
Casual person >>" so what happens if I dont want to pay the extra buck?" "how many events do I need to play in currently to feasibly earn a spot"
DNO >> "then you dont get to play in these events and dont get to be a WPPR ranked person?" "realistically you are going to need to play in 25 or more events ina year; alternatively you could just be naturally talented and win a few reall big events (but good luck with that as it rarely happens)"
Casual person >> " thanks but no thanks" leaves and never returns to play competitive pinball again
Casual person to friends >> " You would not believe it... They wanted me to pay and extra buck everything I can to an event just so they could get a prize pool of 5k at the end of the year, but only the top 16 players in the state get to attend" "Yeah, I had fun playing pinball, but the ultra competitive vibe and paying extra money was a total turn off"

--Reality Distortion Field off--

Reality everywhere else...

Player: hey, what's all this commotion about?
TD: Hey, I'm Steve. We're actually running a pinball tournament tonight. Do you play?
Player: Yeah, I like pinball... but I've never entered a tournament. What's the story? How do I enter?
TD: It's easy, you put down your name and email, pay a $10 entry fee and you pay for each of your games. The registration also lets you track your history at a site called the IFPA and establish a world wide ranking. We play in a head to head format, the guy with the iPad will tell you who you are to play. It's a bracket to the final four. Top four people get cash prizes
Player: Sounds cool... what's the $10 for? I still pay to play?
TD: Yeah, the $10 funds the event and prize pool. We still pay to play because it's a bar and the location still needs to get their cut.
Player: Ok, makes sense. IFp what?
TD: IFPA, it's a global org setup to help promote competitive pinball ran by some key industry people. They have a ranking system based on your play, and organize events like the State Championships and National Championships
Player: Sweet... state championships? What's that?
TD: Each year, we tally up points for all the IFPA events you participate in our state. Top 16 point getters are invited to a tournament to declare the state champ, and the winner is invited to goto Nationals
Player: Sweet.. what do you win?
TD: State Champ gets a cash prize and invite to Nationals. Win Nationals and you win a new stern pinball. Others get cash prizes of like 1500 bucks or so
Player: Sweet... where do the prizes come from?
TD: Entry fees and sponsors
Player: Awesome, I've never competed before but this sounds cool.
TD: Yeah, no worries, the other players are usually very supportive of helping new guys.. let me introduce you to...

#820 6 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Casual Player to friends - This Josh Sharpe guy is sooooo nice. I felt so welcomed at this event.

You had me until here...

haha Yeah, its only drama if you make it drama for your players. WI has their own corner case because they can't decide if they want to be prize pools and organized events or just be casual play.. and think $1-$5 is a deal breaker.

It's like the guys who think 'no one will ever pay $5 for that' .. meanwhile the next guy starts up, charges $19.95 and sells millions of units.

#821 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinzap:

I still don't get why some people can't just argue and debate the issues without turning their post into a personal attack. Heck, I'm afraid to post half the thoughts I have about this topic because I believe that one or two members will attack my motives and make it sound like I'm selfish and entitled. For the record I've played 3 official events and have no elitism in my body but I fully support IFPA at this point. Even more so than I originally did because of some nasty comments on here. Go figure.

Don't be shy..

Just realize some people have a long history of making the party all about themselves and reactions are related to that.

#824 6 years ago
Quoted from desertT1:

Is IFPA providing a chart for % payout from the SCS? I don't think there should be an option for that to vary from state to state.

At that point.. why not just go all the way and say 'You can only win the same percentage your state contributed..'. The prize pool for nationals is coming from ALL players.. not 'all states'.

People are too focused on these 'equal representation' bits. The states provide an easy to understand tiered event.. and of course tie into people's experience and can relate to regional champs. You have to qualify competitors in some way.. the state champs provides a fun format to do so that is easy to relate to.

If you want something different... pursue the PAPA circuit.

#855 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

That is as far as the conversation ever goes IME when you are charging money to play in the tourney on top of the coin drop.

Then I think you have failed to sell the experience or it's value. People are accustomed to paying for some value or entertainment.

Our leagues charge on the average $4-$10 PER NIGHT and actually most people see them as cheap. People are not against paying for something in return. People are used to paying $10/hr for basic entertainment.. not just hard returns.

'Go see a movie, or for the same money hang out with you all playing pinball for 2-3 hrs?' - people are willing to pay for that. If not, you should look at what you are actually offering.

#856 6 years ago

Around my area... people end up playing 'dollar games' all the time.. even with people that are WAY above them in the ladder/ranks. We do it because it adds another dimension of fun to the game.. and the lower guy really feels great when he takes the money from the better guy.

People may lose 5-6 bucks in a night gambling... but they had a great time playing 5-10 games while they did it. People don't feel 'sharked' or robbed, they spend the money as part of their entertainment. Just like most people know heading into the casino... they will come out poorer. That doesn't stop them from spending money to have fun.

People do it because $1-$3 isn't going to break them... just like ordering one more drink at the bar isn't going to make the difference or not if they eat tomorrow. If that's the case... you probably need a new demographic.

#921 6 years ago
Quoted from Sarge:

This just solidifies my position that tournaments that offer a prize pool (cash) suck the fun out of pinball.
Same 5 or 6 people everytime, and guess what?!?!?! They drive from TWO hours away when there is money involved.
Guess who doesnt show up when we have SUPERFUNTIMEFREETOURNEY.
The fun suckers...THATS WHO

Nothing stopping you from having 'just for fun' events still.. and your demographics apparently won't change a bit.

Not sure what value anyone puts in a 'ranking' system where the players have no interest (because money sucks) in cross pollenating with the bigger audience.

Maybe you should lobby Bowen and Kevin to bring back PARS. If you all just want a player ranking system.. and not care about competitive pinball as the bigger stage.. then just keep doing what you are doing without the IFPA.

#924 6 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

I swear there's a method to this madness, and I'm excited about going down this path and seeing where the other side lands.

I agree with you.. but the BBH video kind of fell flat for me. The event sure looked more like a Red Bull promo event than a competitive 'e-sports' event. The camera swinging over the massive crowd of about 60 ppl didn't help establish the credibility of 'impact'.

Gotta start somewhere.. and I agree with buy-ins funding the activities. But please, less Bar drink promo girls and more competition.

#932 6 years ago
Quoted from JNX:

the dollar game analogy is spot on... only we are being told to ship our dollars somewehere else with someone else playing for them.

Let's not cherry pick the argument..

Is the problem the amount?
or
Is the problem a fee is being collected?

People seem to float back and forth without articulating one or the other fully.

If the problem is $1 'more' - then I'd really say.. you are undervaluing your own event. Pinholics here runs and charges $20 for a one day event. People drive more than 250 miles to come and play. The event pulls usually 40+ players from 8+ states. No one scrutinizes the organizer over how each penny is spent. No one scoffs at the entry fee because they don't feel they can win. They all pay and travel because THEY HAVE A GOOD TIME and some people like the competition it draws out. But the people who don't win, STILL COME OUT AND PAY WILLINGLY.

This is my dollar game example. People know they likely aren't going to get a payoff from their dollar... they don't care.

If the problem is how the fee is used.. (the weak funding the strong, etc).. I think this is people overthinking things. If organizers are asking for a huge commitment.. then I think this argument gets stronger. The more you put out, the more concern you have about how its used and your return for it.

Quoted from JNX:

Again, it's not just a dollar, it is 16 to 20% of the typical entry fee in local tourneys being skimmed off the top for events most people will never attend or to which they be invited to play.

If your main focus is $5 tournaments of walk up players.. why focus on IFPA? Do you think $5 tournaments is going to keep your players engaged in the long term too?

Do your noob players always scrutinize your tournament organizer on the math behind their prize pools? Do they challenge the guy on his balance sheet?

Quoted from JNX:

Nobody has made a legitimate case of how bigger pots at state and national tourneys further develops the game of pinball

I think that's a very legitimate question and discussion. But I think that is separate from the woes about $1 per event, per player registration fees, or whatever. I think Josh has several examples and a strategy they are working on. Yes, part of their plan is funding this through the players.. but you can agree or disagree on the theory of 'do the prize pools matter' on the relevance of promotion without bogging yourself down on the 'player funded' question.

What baffles me is why people are so against 'funding' IFPA initiatives. If you want everything to be retained within your event/town/whatever.. keep it local. What do you see as the IFPA sanctioning benefiting you if you don't care beyond your local scope, don't focus on competition, or look to move beyond the simple local event?

No one says IFPA is the only way to do things.. look at this page. http://pinholicsanonymous.com/regional-calendar/ Kevin wanted to do more to promote local focused activity feeds, promotion, etc.. so he's building his own 'birds of a feather' grouping.

#936 6 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

I wasn't around when a competitive pinball ranking system was revealed but Im sure folks didn't understand that either initially.

I was.. we had PAPA doing things.. including launching a ranking system based on head to head results called PARS.. which was a Bowen effort driven from the likes of Chess and Tennis ranking systems I believe. In a relatively similar time era, the Sharpe family resurrected the IFPA brand from the Eipstein/Sharpe graveyard and started promoting. At the time, not only did we have separate ranking systems 'competing', we also had different rulesets. IFPA had their ideas... PAPA/Kevin had their own ideas on how things should be. Ultimately overtime the PARS system kind of faded under its own struggles to find adoption, and IFPA/PAPA got together and unified the rules commonly used. PAPA does their thing, but they've found a happy medium with IFPA in that the world does not look at it like the North/South civil war anymore

IFPA has frequently gotten scrutiny because of the close association with 'industry' due to people's backgrounds.. but honestly I think it's been an asset. They've attacked this as a more than just a hobby and their background and connections have lead to many corporate relationships that previous people have not been able to crack (or would not focus on). Nothing is perfect, but I think history has proven that the WPRR system has had a significant and positive impact on generating interest in events.

Clearly Josh and others continue to strive to refine the WPRR system to make it better and to combat gaming the system. Some have distanced themselves from it.. but like everything with the IFPA, you are free to take advantage of it where you like, and ignore it where you like. I really don't see that changing here with these recent changes.

#938 6 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

If that's what the ultimate goal is then I guess it's the right plan. For me personally I like that pinball is still "pure" and hasn't sold out to the corporate World. When you make things about money and sponsors it tends to take some of the fun out of it as it becomes much more serious. I don't want to see guys like Keith Elwin adorned with corporate logos and beholden to sponsorship deals. I want Lyman to continue working for Stern and not quitting his job to be a full time professional pinball player "Welcome to the 2018 IFPA Championship sponsored by Citibank and Taco Bell!". Hope you were able to score a ticket that isn't in the nose bleed section

Good news is.. even tho we have NASCAR doing all those things... you can still goto your local track and just race and watch others race, if that's what you want.

As is the same with most sports.. this is not an 'all or nothing' proposition.

#939 6 years ago
Quoted from JNX:

Second Answer: Why would a noob or someone casually playing be willing to support games in which they would virtually never have a shot to play? To help elite players with no upside in furthering the game to feel more enticed to participate? Keeping the money in local events and promoting competition is what grows the game of pinball. This proposed fee is about growing the BUSINESS of pinball. That's 2 different things. Some of us are not interested in that aspect. We shouldn't be FORCED to pay, and when people answer that by saying, "Then don't play," they are doing exactly what you asked about...hindering the game of pinball.

Who says 'don't play'? I think the response is "If you don't care about IFPA activities, why are you associating with the IFPA?" - Keep doing what you are doing and focus on what you find important. If the IFPA doesn't align with that, don't align with the IFPA.

I find it analogous to Pinside donations. Many people donate to Pinside not because they feel the amount is an honorable trade in value for what they consume.. but because they want to advance the larger need.

Are people that really set against supporting a larger pinball initiative that is beyond themselves?

#940 6 years ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

It doesn't, but you can be damn sure that $1 per person per event would be better served if I used it to grow my league and my tournaments.
Facebook advertising, a professionally designed website, business cards I could leave on the machines for the random people playing at the bar. Or maybe even a camera setup so we could display a game on one of the TVs like they do at PAPA. That would generate a ton of interest from regular bar patrons. "Whoa, check out the TV, that looks pretty bad ass. I'm going to go see what that's all about".
There's a much better chance of that happening that someone seeing a news story, about a tournament in another state, where the best players in the United States play for $10,000 and saying to themselves "I'm going to go join a league so I can win the national title and take home $10,000.".
Does that answer your question?

Funny... many of us crowd sourced PAPA.tv for this very reason. The players and community all contributed to fund an effort that largely will never be in their location or town.. so that a remote entity could do these things and promote Pinball at large, so we could all benefit.

I know I didn't contribute based on considering 'how much of PAPA.tv's resources will come to my town' before deciding to contribute.

#941 6 years ago

I LOL'd

#942 6 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

dollar games are like a poker night in your house but this is like some 3rd party take there own rake and the points in that ranking system are setup that you can win 12 poker night and pay that rake 12 times vs just going to 1 big event paying 1 rake and making more points for losing big time then you did with you wining all of your poker nights.

The dollar games example was to illustrate that for trivial amounts of money... people are usually pretty lax about 'what their return is'... because people are arguing like the IFPA is there to steal their livelihood.

The analogy was not about where the money goes... it's about 'Do I see a return for this money?'. And when it's a $1... it doesn't take a ton of entertainment to offset that 'investment'.

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

Also the law may be ok with an local night with 100% pay out that night. but not so much an big outside prize pool.

That's a perfectly legitimate point to investigate. Unfortunately it's going to vary locale by locale.. and frankly I think topics like that are far more reason that the IFPA should address it with 'membership fees' rather than per event fees (that somehow can get rolled together.. that one doesn't make sense to me).

#944 6 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

That's cheap. A typical pump and dump tournament at $10 for 3 plays can easily take $100+ from each player for qualifying. Whether its a free tournament or a pump and dump, its still just an effin dollar!!

Well I would never put a pump and dump event into a conversation about casual or new players. Heck, many established players won't even be in the discussion

#968 6 years ago
Quoted from Jdawg4422:

No because it is still lying to the new players.
$5 entry and $1 goes toward registration fees is a lie.
$5 entry fee and $1 goes towards state and national prize pot would be the truth.
Both of the examples work for a fee based tourney. What happens when the tourney is free.
Then its:
TD: there is a $1 fee to play
New player: Cool so theres 25 people playing, if i win i get $25!
TD: No thats not how it works
New player: how does it work then?
TD: That $1 per player goes towards state championships and national championships.
New Player: How do i get to state championships do i just show up?
TD: No you have to be in the top 16 of the state to qualify. You will need to play in atleast 30 events to have a chance at playing in the state championships.
New Player: Thanks, I think ill just play some pinball by myself.

Sure if you shoot people down.. they arne't going to fight back... and you'd be a shitty state TD (and sales guy). Instead it should be..

New Player: How do i get to state championships do i just show up?
TD: The state championships are invitationals for the top qualifiers in the state. You qualify based on your cumulative performance in events held in the state during the year like this one. The winner of the event is invited to nationals and compete there with state champs from all over and canada too. The event fees help fund the prize pools for these events.. just like your few bucks is funding tonight's prize pool
New Player: So I have to win these events to qualify?
TD: No, the number of points you earn will be based on how you finish. How many points you earn is based on the size and competition in the event. Basically, the better you do, the bigger the event, the more chance for points. The more events you participate in, the more you have contributing. And even if you aren't in the top 16, not everyone can always make it, so often we have to go further down the rankings to fill the event. The IFPA maintains a rankings page where you can see where you stand. It's a neat bonus for those interested and can give people an idea of what competition is like outside just this local bar..

#987 6 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

THAT is exactly what the fee is all about.
The service that everyone enjoys from the IFPA (being world ranked, having a profile they can customize, tracking their progress, etc) has been a free service.
Those TD's and players in those communities that are interested in the draw of the IFPA website and WPPR points have that at their disposal . . . the only difference being now they have to pay for those perks.

Josh, I'm with you.. but the presentation here is kind of conflicting.

You introduce the idea as 'funding the SCS events' and downplay the idea of ifpa 'membership' fees
Now you use the idea of ifpa perks as the reason to pay the $1 fee

If you go around promoting the fee as ONLY for SCS.. you've painted yourself into the corner and make yourself the bad guy when you decide you want to use this 'fee' for something else in the future.

It sounds like what you are really doing is "its an IFPA fee, but for now that fee is going fully to funding the SCS events".. but that's not what you are putting on paper (because you don't want IFPA collecting membership fees)

Bite the bullet... call it what it is.

Edit: and it seems like that's what your last post says

Now let's move onto the annual dues vs per event fee discussion

#996 6 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

annual dues are better and less work for the local TD's also it cut's down on legal issues. But what to do about the people at events who just play and don't really want to pay to be ranked?
There needs to be some kind of middle ground from yearly fees to per per event.

The challenge with annual dues is they miss the mark on the objective of fueling the prize pool... where a 'per event' fee helps scale with growth.

Seems easy enough for me to grasp both goals with just calling it a 'per event' fee that scales with the # of players. I think this satisfies all needs EXCEPT for Josh's concerns about IFPA accounting (which.. I'd say.. tough'en up.. since he outlined the overall goal is to be a paid system anyways).

It's easy to understand as a "per event submission" model

Q: I want this count to towards SCS points, how do I?
A: register and submit the event, all IFPA sanctioned events in the state will count.

Q: how many 'events' is my league/tourney/whatever?
A: easy, if you registered it once, it is one event... one fee per player. Points consequences are handled by the usual WPRR logic.

Q: does my performance count towards SCS/WPRR?
A: easy, if the event is registered, yes!

Q: What is the fee per event?
A: The fee scales with the size of the event based on # of players participating. (gives an option for future extra options to charge for promotion, etc as well)

Q: Who counts?
A: Easy, if the event is registered, all players are eligible

Q: How is the fee funded?
A: That's up to the event organizer. TDs can fund events from their own pocket, player entry fees, sponsorships, whatever.

Q: How is the fee collected?
A: Paid when the event is submitted by the TD to IFPA

Q: What does the fee do?
A: The fee funds the initiatives of the IFPA whose purpose is to promote competitive pinball. Currently those programs include the WPRR ranking system, IFPA website, and an initiative to build prize pools for the SCS/Nationals IFPA events.

Seems concise and well bounded if you outline it this way IMO. This gives TDs the flexibility to fund the fees how they see fit, it gives IFPA what they want in terms of a fee that scales with the amount of play/points people are eligible for, and is easy to articulate. I outlined it above as people not having the option to opt-in/out at an event because I think that is more inline with the objectives AND streamlines things. But that is an item that could be modified easy enough without changing the overall picture (but complicates scoring of entries for events that may have multiple meets).

#1001 6 years ago

The things people fret over just amaze me at times.

Our league hosts will spend $50-$100 out of their own pocket to ensure their guests have a good time.. or someone will spend money buying parts to ensure their games at the best condition... or people buy trophies.. but they freak out about paying for IFPA recognition of the event.

That means either
a) people are lazy and just resist change
b) people don't value what the IFPA offers the event
c) people are afraid of change

I mean heck, the yearly WPPR rule tweaks have had FAR MORE impact on how events are ran and organized than this topic IMO.

#1005 6 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

What about tax issues for the local td's? If one has over $600 is fees to remit then there maybe issues?

What specific taxes are you referring to?
If this is purely a hypothetical, then someone needs tax advice. And in that case, its no different than it was before. They need advice on their local laws.
IFPA is not introducing the idea of cash entry fees. The tax implications of running an event has always existed.

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

What about legal issues with collecting and remitting this fee at the local per event level?

I'm not clear on the question.
If you are referring to the WI-exception of 'no fee events' - then I think that is on the TD to research and come to an answer on. The same exact way they do today. TD's figure out how to cover expenses today, they will have to figure out what expenses they want to include and how to pay them.

If you are referring to the transaction between the TD and the IFPA, as it is the IFPA who wishes to operate as a business entity providing services and collecting fees, I would propose this is the responsibility of the IFPA to flush that out.

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

What about the tax / paper work issues with a State TD that has to deal with an over 10K prize pool?

If that situation arises, I'm sure that's a scenario everyone will be happy to work on resolving.. its a good problem to have. With Josh's stated intentions of promoting prize pools, it's a topic that is inevitable if the objective is realized. This gets down into the weeds of 'how', but I would expect the solution ultimately is that the SCS becomes an IFPA function, ran by contractors, and not just a locally ran event under the IFPA banner.

Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

What about charities that may take issues with the NON not for profit IFPA needed to be paided a fee collected at the event level to have an charity event?

Is there a specific example you have where people are not able to pay expenses when dealing with charities? "100% of proceeds goto..." is a CHOICE organizers make, not a requirement. Those organizers often then recognize their own expenses as a donation to the charity.

The general topic of tax/legal issues with competition is an area that as a central entity focused on promoting competive pinball... is a topic I think should be in the IFPA mission to help people research and understand their constraints. Just like IFPA helps with running tournaments, rules, etc... the legalities/business side is an area that the pooled efforts of the IFPA should be within their scope as well. My 02c

#1027 6 years ago
Quoted from JNX:

If i played every event available to me locally, and that is within about a 30 mile radius, mainly at 2 different locations; I could end up paying almost $100/ year to IFPA.

If there were 100 separate events within a single year... I'd question the events honestly. (And the hypothetical that a person is playing every 3rd day for a year)

#1077 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

IFPA doesnt seem to care it is asking many TDs to break local or state laws...
I wonder if they get pulled into a case where someones personal machines get taken by the state/gaming commission what happens?
I spoke to a good local WI lawyer. They went though all the laws and noted that while the chances of action being taken is minimal; the state would act swiftly and it would cost 10s of thousands of dollars in court to fight them if it happened. They also noted that the very first thing they would do is rope in the IFPA to cover the legal fees out of their administrative pool of funds.
this it the biggest reason I just cant take on the additional risk to support the IFPA starting in 2018.

Step 1 - share with IFPA the applicable laws in question. First step in any discussion is to establish you are working from the same base information

How many 'hours' have you put in on this topic here and before... yet people can't recall the actual sections of relevance.

#1096 6 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

what about an tiered fee structure per event say that lessens the load for smaller events.
0-10 players $0-$3
11-20 players $5-$10
21-30 players $12-$25
31-50 $30-$45
51-70 $50-$65
71+ $1 per player

What does this solve?

The complaints have not been about the SIZE of the fee... only that there is a fee when it's a zero cost even (so size is irrelevant) or legal concerns or philosophical concerns.

Scaling the fee (besides 0-10 = 0) does nothing to address any of the complaints. And if you cap it at some number, the next complaint is 'our free events are bigger than that!' and the wheel keeps turning.

#1106 6 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

It does help in making the smaller events not be hurt by fees. Still does not fix the legal concerns 100% but it can be better framed as it's not per player but based on event size and that may make it better in the legal area.

Scaling the fee up/down doesn't improve the 'per event' story because it doesn't add anything unique to the idea of just collecting 'per event' anyways. And smaller events were not complaining about the amount of the fee (except for the 'free' case). This doesn't address any of the concerns raised.

#1113 6 years ago
Quoted from DNO:

All these free tourneys, and brand new players, shouldn't really be counted towards the "world rankings" anyway IMO.
I have always thought the rankings have been diluted too much by allowing just anyone to put their event up and get points. I had wondered if having the ifpa choose the only events that would be used to decide rankings would not be a better way to determine the rankings.
But the ifpa has done it the way they have, and TDs have figured out how to abuse the system and pump up their events to get inflated points that they don't deserve, time and time again.

It's been a bit of a 'have your cake and eat it too'

The low barrier of entry has been a positive to help promote the system and pinball (and try to keep admin overhead low)
.. but also lead to people trying to game the system. Which is why the requirements and scoring are on their umpteenth iteration of refinement as they play whack-a-mole with the new schemes people come up with.

But since the rankings carry little direct value... a level of slop in the system is tolerable as long as the bigger objectives are still being met. Growing the interest was working.. so trend gently. You don't need PERFECTION.. you want to embrace the velocity but just keep things pointed in the direction you want. I think Josh & Co. have done a reasonably good job of balancing this.. and have finally taken some of the big steps to correct some of the more rampant abuse of the spirit of the system.

Now, they feel the time is right to move to the next phase.. and target some new objectives. Changes they know will directly impact the velocity/volume of activity, but they are expecting that.

Quoted from DNO:

And everyone acting like they just can't possibly hold their free events now! Just hold the damn event and don't register, guess what? All those new players won't give a shit about rankings, and never would have, especially if people don't go around complaining about NOT getting any wpprs.
Pool leagues aren't free (VNEA,BCA, etc), bowling leagues aren't free, dart leagues aren't free, the list goes on...
If people want to compete in pinball, want to be considered a world ranked player, have a shot at "state" or "nationals", then they will pay.
If you're not that serious and don't care, go find some local freebie stuff or play dollar games with your friends.

Yup.. I've said it earlier. If you don't value your events enough that you don't think a $1/head can be covered... I think you are doing it wrong.

#1174 6 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

. Just that many people arguing against this are not arguing against the $1 because 'it is too much'. I may have missed it, but I haven't seen that as a major argument anywhere here, or on tiltforums.

It was multiple times. Arguments that the fee will run off casual players (because they are used to free events). Arguments that the fee is some large percentage of the fees (again... because they charge so little). It's been labored over many times. Then all the conspiracy theories about how the money is being robbed from Peter to pay Paul, etc.

-3
#1192 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

I feel the fee is basically a tax on all sanctioned competitive pinball events and players that ends up in the hands of the top 1% competitors.

Is there another format you could suggest where the bulk of the take doesn't end up in the hands of the winners?
Is there some new format drawing people where the inverse of that is popular?

Quoted from PinballHelp:

In traditional competitive industries, it's sponsors that fund the prize money pool. The fact that the IFPA wants players to fund it says a lot about the state of pinball and the degree to which those in the industry who profit from it, aren't motivated or can't see a return from traditionally funding competition the way it is in virtually every other competitive field.

Yes, it says the industry is still small.. there isn't a ton of money in it.. and pinball people are cheap.
And to say most competitive industries is sponsor funded... is naive. The buy-in model is alive and well.. and even when sponsors do contribute to the pool, participants are too.

Quoted from PinballHelp:

Rather than get players to fund the hobby, I would have liked to have seen the IFPA approach Stern and get sponsorship of $50-100k for the tournament series. That would have been a win-win for everybody.

Go for it.. do you think Stern's current level of commitment is due to something besides the IFPA engaging them and asking for as much as they can get?

#1206 6 years ago

Recent discussions at local events here across various groups has shown a lot more resistance to the 2018 plan than I think is represented in Josh's comments. I was actually surprised by how much resistance there is.

1 week later
#1260 6 years ago
Quoted from sandersj:

Actually, in regards to regretting comments, this was all just a little Pinside social experiment by me to see if I could find a good excuse to cancel my scheduled Saturday match play events. Yes I posted some negativity, but didn't mention any names

"No I'm not really a douche... I only play one on pinside"

Color shone... you can't take it back now.

4 months later
#1339 6 years ago
Quoted from pinlink:

For the "just 1 dollar" folks.
Imagine your cell phone company called you.
Phone company: "Hey, we are going to start charging you $1 for every phone call you make. But don't worry it's just a dollar!"
You: "But wait, that is going to really add up. I make a lot of calls."
Phone company: "No no no you aren't getting it. It is just 1 dollar."
You: "But I like to make calls, its fun and that is what I spend most of my free time doing."
Phone company: "I don't think you are getting it, it's really just 1 dollar. You can just make less phone calls if the $1 per call is a problem. We actually expect more people to use our service with this new plan!"

If you start playing in as many tournaments as you make phone calls... let us know. Until then, this is the worst analogy of the week...

-1
#1494 6 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

I do prefer the mini seasons. If someone gets ahead during the year early in a season that is a year long, attendance drops off because it is nearly impossible to catch anyone. Having a fresh start is nice.
I think running a league quarterly makes more sense to me.
I believe we do ours differently in that we play MatchPlay in groups of 3/4 where you guys do a best game tournament format and then have a playoff.
We use MatchPlay.com which has been great because we use to draw games every round.
One thing we did differently this year is do the matches in a Swiss format by there overall score. If you are scoring higher you are going to be playing people that are also scoring higher which makes it pretty competitive. It reminds me more of the Pinburgh format.

The FSPA rule set handles this with playoffs, a 10 week season, and handicapping via grouping of the players.

Even after the full season... most players are still within one week's points of making the playoffs... and even one point is relevant after 10 weeks of play.

Sometimes people think they are a lost cause, but I can't remember anyone dropping out due to that. The handicapping keeps competition tight... and breaks down only when the player skill gap is too huge.

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