Did anyone else see this post on IFPA in regard to charging a fee of $1/person per tournament to "boost prestige of state and national events"?

https://www.ifpapinball.com/2018-19-state-championship-series-endorsement-fee-and-prize-pool-adjustment/#comments

This seems like a huge cash grab for the top players at the expense of everyone else. I'm not sure how this encourages competitive pinball as it just is a tax for everyone else. I thought this was a April Fools Day joke, the follow-up post seems to indicate it is serious.

While I'm normally a pretty diplomatic guy, to quote the goat, this plan "stinks worse than my nuts".

How does this fee encourage more competitive pinball?

Growing up, my grandpa told me that the quickest way to ruin a good thing is to get money involved.

I'm still trying to figure out how the fee makes competitive pinball better? Everyone pays $1 per tournament that goes towards awards for a select few higher echelon players. Realistically, 99% of the registered IFPA players have no shot at winning their money back. Sure, someone can hit a lucky streak, but in reality, the highest ranked players will probably continue to win the big events, taking in even more rewards.

Has there ever been a time when a fee or tax that everyone pays but only few benefit from has been successful over the long term?

I am more than able to afford a dollar per tournament, but this is a bad idea in principle. Heck, if a dollar is a good idea, two dollars is better and ten dollars must be great! I'd be fine to pay IFPA to support administrative functions such as data entry and website hosting, but "pay to play" just reeks of a cash grab.

Josh - You have a good thing going with how IFPA has been running and I'd hate for this to change. While I don't think this decision was made to personally benefit you, you are in a unique situation and have an inherent conflict of interest with your position within the IFPA as well as your skill level to win such tournaments. I would strongly suggest taking some time to revisit this decision and consider if the State and National tournaments merit such an upheaval to every other tournament that IFPA sanctions. I feel that the State and National tournaments have been very successful as they already are.

I know IFPA has made changes in the past and sometimes those decisions were unpopular. However, this change "feels" much different and I think the fall out from it may be permanent.

Right now, IFPA is the unquestioned organization for all things competitive pinball. If changes are made with pro vs. amateur ranking's or other groups starting their own rankings (IE Wexit and WIFPA - BTW, I love the term Wexit), it will only water down competitive pinball overall.

Look at boxing. There are like 10 different boxing commissions and the champion belts aren't valuabe since there isn't a consensus.

I know a good thing when I see it, and IFPA has a good thing going. Don't screw it up.

Josh - I should have asked this a few hundred posts ago, but has final decision already been firmly made for charging fees for 2018?

Fair enough, it is ultimately a decision made within IFPA. While I don't agree with it, I can respect it. I appreciate that you are more than willing to rationally address these changes even though most of us are crapping all over you.

I hope the changes work out. I'm not spending more time debating the changes as it ultimately will just be a waste of said time.

To be honest, I really don't have a good idea on where to take the new approach from here, which is why I liked the old/current system. I know my skill level will never approach the top tier and I have zero interest in playing at the national level (with the exception of Pinburgh, which is a good excuse for a road trip with my buddies). I have a better chance of becoming a professional gigolo than a professional pinball player.

Personally, I like to play in local Wisconsin events and ultimately have a place in the SCS for Wisconsin. If doing "professional" tournaments with a fee is the only way to gain WPPR points to qualify for the SCS, then I suspect I'll just stick to my local league and competitive pinball for me will die on the vine.

I'm not really keen on keeping competing rankings, state-wide or otherwise, as it just waters down everything. Soon, everyone will have their own ranking system that is somehow better, fairer, cheaper, etc. and it ends up like professional boxing.

Not really. If a tournament director decides not to pay the fee, then no WPPR points, regardless if I want to or not.

Many of us would be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Most tournaments have no fees and no payouts currently, as we do this for fun. I would say about half of regular tournament players care about WPPR points. So, as a TD, do you charge a fee and piss off those that don't care about WPPR points or not charge a fee, not have WPPR points, and probably have a significant number of players not play in your tournament?

Well, I see that this dumpster fire of a thread has re-ignited.

I re-read the original post on the IFPA website about the fees. I guess the biggest disconnect for me is that I do not equate money with prestige. I play pinball for enjoyment and gloating rights over my buddies. If earning money by playing pinball is a person's motivation, I would suggest getting a real job for income.

The last concern I had was in regard to sportsmanship. On the whole, most guys are pretty good sports and play pinball fairly. However, you throw a big pot of money, some people will get petty and throw sportsmanship out the window.

While we all like being keyboard commandos, at the end of the day, it isn't our decision. Josh has made his decision clear and final. While I personally don't agree with it, I am impressed that he has stuck to his guns and not withered in the face of controversy. In such a PC, wishy-washy world, it is a bit refreshing to see someone stick to their convictions for what they think is the right decision.

There are lots of way for kids to work and make money - paper routes, lemonade stands, mowing lawns, shoveling sidewalks, pinball tournaments.

No, wait, scratch that last one...

Josh, I think you forgot the sarcasm emoji at the end of that sentence.

In all seriousness, I think most of us realize that this is the way it is going to be for 2018. However, in Wisconsin, we have a legitimate legal concern in regard to how pinball prizes could be construed as an illegal activity. The MGC is the largest tournament in the state and the organizers have repeatedly said they cannot pay a fee as they have been warned that there will be legal consequences. At the same time, the MGC, being the largest tournament in the state, not having it count towards IFPA would de-legitimize player rankings in the state.

For instance, someone plays in a ton of tournaments and builds up their total points in the state to make the SCS, but they pooped the bed at the MGC, could make the SCS at the expense of someone else that did very well at MGC, the legitimate largest state tournament. I would suggest making very few and limited exceptions to the new IFPA tournament pricing to make issues like this go away.

Thanks, Josh.

Uh oh, looks like Alabama might displace Wisconsin as the most dysfunctional pinball state.

Hey Josh - has the deafening silence on Pinside regarding IFPA tournament fees wilted your resolve to institute the new fee structure?

Personally, I don't care about paying a dollar per tournament nor do I think most competitive players that follow their IFPA ranking. My biggest rub is this: a significant portion of pinball tournament players do not care about IFPA points and have no reason to pay a dollar since they receive no perceived benefit. However, having a higher participation number in tournament is the best way to boost the IFPA points available to win, which is what the more competitive players are looking for. So, we are left with a few options:

1. Have everyone pay a dollar and risk having people that don't want to pay a dollar not enter tournaments. This could result in a lower participation rate meaning fewer IFPA points available. Competitive players won't like this option as there isn't a "bang for your buck".

2. Have only players that want to be involved with IFPA points pay a dollar in the tournament. Ultimately, it ends up with the same scenario as option 1.

3. Go "free" and not have IFPA points. This may drive away competitive players that are more concerned with IFPA points. It also may give rise to people having their own tracking system. I'm not a big fan of this as IFPA is the de facto pinball ranking authority. Each person that doesn't like a tracking system comes up with their own, and soon you have rankings based at the state level, county, city, block, household, etc and they don't mean a hill of beans.

If anyone has ideas on how to reconcile all of this, I'm all ears.

Where do you draw the line? If you drove to a "free" tournament, it cost you money for gas. Did you have a meal before so you had energy to play? That's not free either. At the end of the day, there is no fee to play for quite a few pinball tournaments in WI.

IFPA is charging a dollar for each tournament? When did that happen? It just got sprung on us with no notice.