Elevating IMO - finding ways for competitive pinball to be in the public consciousness of people in the world. We do this through trying to land as many media impressions as we can, and introducing competitive pinball to world that doesn't know it exists (not necessarily new players). We're building our brand to execute Championships at the State, National and International levels and feel that the garnering of this media attention becomes an easier sell as the stakes get bigger. Every big media piece we've ever had has led to calls with production companies for potential reality shows, and an interest in taking a deeper dive into our world. I would like to someday hit on one of these, and am focusing our brand to try and land that fish at some point.

You seem to assume that all TD's will be requiring players to pay an additional $1 to be ranked. I can tell you that for my tournaments we will be instituting a Winner's Tax. The endorsement fee will be coming out of the 1st place prize.

So in a 40 player tournament for example of $5 each , if the prizes were going to be $100/$80/$60, I would implement the Winner's Tax. The winner would get paid $60. Second place will still get $80! That way out of the 40 people that participate only one person is pissed, and that's the winner. Everyone else gets a free ride, so don't win and you'll be good to go.

If players are already losing interest in the WPPR system within a few months because of how confusing it is, then it's likely this change won't have any impact in your area . . . seems like we've already lost those people?

Phew, its hard enough getting the pizza money on tournament night!!

Didn't WI have an SCS this year?

They absolutely did NOT, and David Daluga did NOT represent them at Nationals

They did, and the td for that event broke the law as a representative of the ifpa.

A risk we have taken to this point, but sounds like people don't want to take it with the added press likely to come from this newest change.

Aren't there any Golden Tee machines in WI? To play online, you must pay an extra dollar, and you are elegible to win prizes and cash. Curious how this would be any different.

Wisconsin is one of our (Raw Thrills) most successful states for Big Buck Hunter tournaments.

Sarah Erlandson is like the Keith Elwin of BBH and has won the women's championship pretty much every year we hold it. She's insanely good.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/land-of-10000-stories/2015/10/06/big-buck-hunter-sara-erlandson-beldenville/73461834/

Josh am I right in assuming IFPA selfie leagues are done? They were a great tool to get friends to try competitive pinball. It was neat to see their names on the world leaderboard.

I guess I understand if this new rule is to get rid of smaller IFPA events and lighten the load for you.

So true mate, only the Hosts would know
We had a gold coin entry fee for Christchurch ($1 $2) to help host costs. We have stopped that as it was such a hassle,

My wife and I run two bar leagues in Wisconsin and I am totally opposed to this. I think the IFPA has forgotten one thing. MOST PEOPLE PLAY PINBALL FOR FUN!!

90% of the people that play in our local bar leagues don't give a crap about IFPA points and have zero chance of winning any of this proposed prize pool. Asking them to subsidize the prize pool for a select few players is total BS!

We have no tournament fees at the bar leagues and no cash payout. If you win you get a high-five and a 6-pack of beer.

I don't think it's fair to ask the local operator to pay these fees. Keeping pinball machines up and running is a pain in the ass and I doubt they are getting rich off of us. Just getting the operator to fix minor issues is a major struggle. Do you think they are going to start giving cash out of their pocket to pay us to play? What a joke.

It is also difficult to find a bar that is willing to host tournaments. We actually lost a tournament location because the people playing pinball didn't get super drunk like the trivia people and drop a bunch of cash on drinks. Another location reduced the machines they had and moved them to a horrible location because we were encroaching on the space of the local pool players once a month. Now we are expected to ask the bar to pay for us to participate in a tournament they really don't care about?

The tournaments I run in Wisconsin will not be offering IFPA points in 2018 if this new policy goes through.

No, selfie leagues continue. We run ours in Chicago at Level 257 every month.

This change won't be a big deal for us. We will have the winners pay the bill so players that play for fun like my mom have literally no impact on their tournament experience and still get to enjoy earning the WPPR points they are interested in.

I definitely understand other TD's not wanting to make the winners of the events pay this load. Personally I think taxing ONLY the players that stand to benefit from this program is the best way to go.

This is exactly what we're looking for. If 90% of your players don't care about IFPA points then you can and should continue as a non-IFPA event without any negative impact.

Why even bother doing it now if so many players don't care?

What about fees to send money

or locations where they do want people playing for cash payouts? Yes there are a few not in WI there playing for fun it ok but they don't like people playing for cash prizes.

Working that out. Worst case is we will sponsor the lost fees if we have to take in gross versus net funds.

It's amusing given all the real gambling that goes on in Wisconsin. One wonders if this would stand up to an actual court challenge, though I wouldn't be volunteering anyone to take this one. How is it golf tournaments are legal in Wisconsin? (that question is for anyone)

It's not obvious on your website. Please rephrase the following sentence "To serve that purpose, starting on 1/1/18, the IFPA is implementing an endorsement fee that will be required for any event that wishes to be counted as part of the IFPA World Pinball Player Rankings."

(and let me tell you this: assuming this rule was implemented in France, you would not lose 50% of tourneys... more like 90%)

I just found out this was real and not an April Fools joke, and I'm not going to bother reading 267 posts of people complaining about it, so I'll just chime in and say that as a player and a tournament director I like it

"whoever wins the world series, has to pay a portion of their winnings to other teams who didnt even make the playoffs"

Not really a good analogy. The winners are going to get theirs when State rolls around. The people who don't make the top 16 are the ones who 'didn't make the playoffs'. The people who finish in the top 4-5 consistently do 'make the playoffs'.

If you aren't in it for the money, winning will be extra sweet for you.

Just to restate a point I made earlier today, 656 people will cash when you combine all the SCS championships.

What about indian casinos that are not really part of the state in WI?

Is fantasy football or their websites legal in Wisconsin?

Consider it deferred winnings from the people that stand to benefit the most from this rule change.

If you only tax the winner or winners out of the prize pool, a majority of the casual players that don't win are not impacted.

I'm not a fan of the poor funding the rich here. I'm a fan of the rich funding themselves with their own winnings.

Other sports don't have to self fund. That's the problem. You don't need to buy any equipment to play pinball (unless you are Bob and want your gloves, or a pinball towel for Roger). Every other sport, those who never play for any money are the ones who support those who do. Every time you buy a Nike golf ball, a Head tennis racket, or Wilson football, some amount of your purchase goes to fund these things. I suppose every amateur could opt out and make their own stuff.

They also have the bar cherry master type slots that are semi legal.

But this idea sounds like there it going to be irs / reporting issues / just with the moving the cash around.

This seems to be quick story on the laws in WI
http://fox6now.com/2017/02/19/state-tries-to-pull-the-plug-on-video-gambling-machines-disguised-as-phone-chargers/

This would be a 20% tax since almost every tournament I'm aware of is a $5 entry. Winner pays is a reasonable way to go but 80% payout is unfortunate. Maybe a sliding scale for smaller entry fees?

or the monthly ones would just report maybe less times per year have have 1-6 dates add up to a few finales nights

Although I skipped through 5 pages, this seems to cater to the 'top 1%' of ifpa ranked players.

If the money was used in a broader way, for more players and in more countries, this would be more fair. Also if it was used to administrate the IFPA, great.

This is not fair. This is elitist and not good for the 99% of ranked players who will never go to a nationals.

A really unfortunate move and this sounds like a logistical nightmare. How is all this money going to be tracked? Will it go through a business and he taxed?

The end of the IFPA as we know it. Good or bad it will be forever changed.

Whoever is implementing this in Canada, this $1 charge will probably be against our gaming laws and you will probably need a gaming license to run an event....I hope the powers that be have looked into this, you are profiting (or potentially moving money outside of Canada?) from a gaming compition, which has all sorts of legislation here...

Is there not a better way to fund the 1% elite IFPA players? Better advertising and so on?

We are pulling 55 players at our monthly stacked league, and I can tell you maybe 2 or 3 of all 55 players actually give a crap about the nationals - so why focus on the elite? I think this really needs lots of revision and isn't fully thought out...

Maybe we should say to hell with the IFPA for 2018 - not something I think is the right choice but this isn't fair...

If you want to do this DO IT FOR THE CIRCUIT EVENTS ONLY - that's where all the baller players go and is serious competition!!!!!

First, I'm not a tournament player. I generally just play for fun. Tournaments and points are simply confusing to me, and if they are confusing to me, they will be completely boggling for brand new players. New players are who you are trying to attract, right?

So ifpa wants to charge all the smaller local tournaments a fee in order for player points to be listed on ifpa, and that money goes to a big prize pot that only a select few have a shot at winning?

It seems like it will reduce the incentive for players to bother with ifpa and just stick to local events and doing their own thing. This will probably fracture the tournament circuit.

It seems to me, this approach is backwards. Local events are the life blood of competitive pinball, not a single national event that only a select few can participate in.

If there were local events in my area, I would probably care more about competitive play. But since there isn't, I could care less about nationals.

IMHO, local is where it's at for the growth potential of pinball. Not some far away event that I'm never going to travel to. I would never be able to encourage some of my non-pinball friends to participate in anything but a nearby local event.

I seriously don't have time for this, but in short...

It's all selective enforcement. By the letter of the law, the PGA tournament is illegal. They don't enforce it.

I sat in a room where it was confirmed to me that Chuck E Cheese is illegal (there is one in Brookfield) but I was told that was okay by the same people that enforce against us because they were "an established business".

Ultimately, the mgc will do fine with or without points, and I'm not saying that other things are going to run and have problems. I just won't be willing to do it, as I've been close enough to jail for one lifetime over pinball tournaments when I didnt even know we had an issue.

Oh, and why are the slot machines legal in bars in Wisconsin? Look what associations donate to certain politicians. Interestingly, the law that allows them didn't make them legal, they just made it illegal to enforce I'd there is less than a certain number of slots in one place.

I don't think this is accurate. With 656 players winning money, and given that the IFPA does have 40,000 plus ranked players, BUT only about half of them have played in the last year, I would suggest it goes way higher than 1%.

And we're only talking about the U.S. here too, with 656 players. There are many thousands of international players not accounted for in that percentage.

And one more thought, there are plenty of much lower ranked players that qualify in several states. While Eric Stone, by all accounts, and based on eye witness testimony of a friend of mine, is a very good player, he was ranked 180th when he went to the SCS National Championship, not exactly a favorite at all.

Which is why an enforcement action wouldn't stand up in court. For starters, there is precedent going back to Roger Sharpe, where a court found that pinball was in fact a game of skill. And given that (at least nobody has said to the contrary) Fan Dual is legal in Wisconsin, golf tournaments are *regularly* held for money, the law is on amazingly shaky footing.

And no, I'm not asking you to take this on. I am saying that people requesting Wisconsin to be exempt doesn't really have merit.

Can't wait for PAPA 2018.

Just out of curiosity, did someone report you? How or why did anyone get up from behind a desk to go visit you to tell say you might be in trouble? Hard to imagine it was worth anyone's time.

Ok so using your math and example (Eric Stone) 180/20,000 = .009 aka 1%

Like what gambling?

I didn't say or imply to "perpetually" run funding campaigns. I'm asking why not try it at the very least once? Then we all would know the interest level of player funded prize pools going into 2018. Then possibly those TDs that run state finals can do individual campaigns.

'Oh won't somebody help that poor man ?'

math...

how does it work?

lol

Does the IFPA provide a 1099 for winnings over $600?

That's if there wasn't a fee to play in the finals itself, is that fee going away or staying?

it's going to be more then that just the moving of cash from events to IFPA just hope your local TD does not have more then $600 in 1 year to send in and then IFPA to SCS POOL will be an issue if it's over $600 and maybe $1200 and then If it's $10K then it's IRS audit / big paperwork TIME.

Is there a reason you can't allow free tournaments to remain free and charity tournaments to allow 100% of proceeds to go to charity vs. turning them into paid events that funnel money towards the State and National Tournaments? Why not just "tax" the paid tournaments? That seems like a much better compromise to me. I don't think every TD will want to be responsible for collecting and holding money to send the IFPA and I think this system just opens the door to problems. Money can go missing, could get audited by IRS since gambling isn't legal in most States, etc... I think the current system works great and I don't think we need bigger prize pools. I know I'd be happy just taking home a trophy as a State Champion. Not everything has to be about money.

Unfortunately I am a local TD and running SCS this year in my state. Glad I won't have to deal with it this year.

Maybe all the SCS states can provide an additional $1 fee per player per tournament to help WI fight this law. It's only a $1. Then we can all be happy

How do other league sports (bowling, darts, pool) handle this sort of thing?

Why do we bother? We bother because some people care about the points. What I like about pinball is that in general the pinball community is all inclusive and welcoming.

This policy of having the casual player fund a couple elite players goes against that.

The "winners tax" seems to solve that grievance. Maybe a lot of these complaints could have been nullified if the ifpa proposed these fees funded this way as the first possibility listed.

You get fewer WPPR points when you do this. And to be fair, coming home with $15 or $20 for competing at least three nights and winning your division isn't something that's going to draw fierce competitors from all over town. If players are skipping a week intentionally WPPR points aren't a big motivator for them.

We've got several months to figure out if and how we want to implement the fee. We can keep doing what we're doing and not bother with IFPA, run $1 entry events and all money goes to IFPA, or whatever else we come up with. We could really use more promotion at the local level. Let's talk Tuesday.

Personally, I don't care about winning money specifically but I would object to lining the pockets of the top four players month after month. The attraction of the WPPR system for me is as the most accurate representation of my skill level compared to people I've never played. It's the most accurate system we have at the moment but there are so many variables involved I don't think you can definitively call it great.

There is no cash prize in our tournaments. That is illegal in our state. So you would be losing money by doing well in the tournament.

"Congratulations! You took 1st! Here is a 6-pack of beer. BTW, you owe me $20 because you took 1st place"

I'm worried about what happens when Rolling Stone and The Washington Post get a hold of this story. We've got to keep it out of the press!

I'd assume selfie-leagues aren't going anywhere, as long as the selfie-takers pay their buck per "season" however long that is.