so Josh, is WI now exempt due to legal reasons also?

This sucks. The vast majority of the people that come to our local tournaments will not care at all about bigger prize pools for something they will never go to. If someone else doesn't want to start organising these locally we may be done with IFPA comps locally. I just don't want to deal with it.

you appear to be exempt and the US/CAN are the players that have to pay.

No need to worry champ, this doesn't affect us.

We will remain prize money free foreverrrrrrrrr.

rd

Nope. We can roll this out as IFPA administrative expenses for those states where we have an issue.

I can bill MGC the labor it takes for us to review their calendar submission and results submission. I'm guessing the bill will come out to however many players they submit to the system

Hilton I can give you all of that info. I believe we even have it posted on our site. If you want our entire historical database of WI results I can provide that as well so you have a solid place to start. You could then move forward however you see fit up there

last year in texas, the vast majority of points were created by local leagues and a few large events (tpf and bat city open). both events brought a large number of players from out of state who performed very well. This year nationals were in texas, tpf was a PAPA circuit event, and bat city open will be huge im sure. despite this, the vast majority of these 1 dollar entry fees will come from local leagues (35+bucks a month, plus whatever small tourneys pop up in austin, dallas, or houston) yet players who visit once or twice a year could potentially earn enough points to make SCS at a few of our large events. if this happens will it be essentially locals paying year round to make traveling to texas worth it to play in our SCS? i understand this is a longshot scenario, but it seems like this could happen to texas in 2018, and maybe some other states which have local leagues but also big national events?!

This seems like at best a double edged sword for everyone involved

Is all of this really that important to running a local tournament? Are you really trying to have your own separate ranking system??? Seems pretty petty to me. If you don't like what they are doing just run your tourneys without IFPA being involved. It seems you are more concerned with rankings then just having a fun tourney.

thanks Josh.

Shoot it on over to my email Much appreciated!

I have been in discussions with a few of the other main TDs in WI. Seems this is the impetus for us to look at other options.
Luckily we have plenty of time to examine things, talk with the player base, and make plans if we opt to go in another direction (I am guessing we will but will take some time to settle in and evaluate fully).

At this stage the players I have spoken to today value the state level competition more than other things.
They dont want to pay in for a larger cash prize pool for the end of state competition.
They dont want to pay disporportionally to fund a national competition for an elite group of people to get even more prizes.
They dont want to sell out the good thing we have all worked to build int he state the past 5-7 years for a buck.

Creating a WIFPA system offers lots of pros:
We control our own destiny of rules and can vote to make changes in the future to ensure we work towards promoting the hobby at all times.
We dont have to deal with the additional logistics of charging players in what are mostly free entry events.
We dont have to help buy a new Stern pinball machine or play into some of the obvious conflicts of interest.
We can support and grow the state competition even more and dedicate more energy/$ towards that. Seriously... why give away $6-800 dollars of WI money to National players when we could uses those same funds to promote in state.
There is the side benefit of no longer being restricted as IFPA player rank drops

Cons: no longer IFPA ranked to hunt a magical number (which holds no real value outside of the top 50 players). Sure it is fun, but does not appear to be a major driver in WI pinball.

This still doesn't avoid the law. Players would have to both be exempt from winning prizes in state and nationally.

There are particular laws in Wisconsin that make this illegal. If there is any sort of pot, paid for in any way, for future tournaments you would be invited to based on your current play, AND that all tournaments you need to qualify from have to pay it or you can't, you have the definition of what is illegal in Wisconsin.

What is enforced is something different often, but I guarantee we couldn't do it any more with the mgc, and I have heard of issues in both Madison and Green Bay with other tournaments (not pinball) running up against the same rule.

This is something that potentially exposes every tournament to it, and again Josh you should call me, there is no way around it other than ensuring Wisconsin players never pay in and never get paid out in any way.

Unless you have a bunch of money to pay people to change the law for you, something I don't have.

Speaking from experience....

People coming from out of state to Texas to play in SCS is a rarity. It's well known that our frequent qualifiers for SCS are nothing to sneeze at. A little over a year ago I was telling people, who weren't even in TEXAS, to calm the f down because it was known Bob Matthews was coming here... well, Bob did not walk with our championship. I think that will scare a lot of people off from doing the same, because if a Top 50 player can come here and get shut out in his losing round....you better think twice about that risk/reward.

I think you're right about a double edged sword specifically for Texas, though, for a related reason. Assume the value of our SCS price skyrockets. That does make it extremely lucrative if it's near 2 grand for someone to fly here and try to grab it, leaving less slots for in-state players due to high profile events like TPF and BCO giving people a ton of points to try and qualify. I do think regular leagues will PROBABLY outpace everything but the most ridiculously synchronized wins (Same guy won Nationals AND Pin-masters? 100 points? Aw hell...), but at the same time, you can arguably have a lot of under-skilled players being pushed much higher ranked than arguably they should be for their actual skill level, just for consistent participation. I should know...that's how I got into the top 100 for a while.

Anyways, point is, if a lot of unknowns or lesser skilled players make SCS, and the pot is huge, that's GOING to encourage people to fly out of state and try to take ours. It's going to be a juicy target to come to Texas if the SCS is not seeded with the 'regulars'. I'm not sure if this is really what the intent of the SCS should ever be, but.... Sharpes DGAF and do what they want, and there's not really any recourse aside from venting on Pinside and hoping something sticks, or just packing up and not dealing with IFPA. I can't think of a single time they have backpedaled on changes they put forth BEFORE they at least had some time in the system. They literally hold all the power, and we have nothing except the threat of not participating, in an age where competition has been EXPLODING, making our threats meaningless. /shrug

As far as I understand, Nationals/Pinmasters being here this year was just an (whatever convention is called that Sharpe has to go to for his job with Raw Thrills)-related fluke and isn't likely to re-occur. Convention center in Vegas is moving or getting renovated or something this year so the show had to temporarily move, which means we got the tournaments with it.

I'm just so over having to think about this stuff. It drives me nuts, and it's really ultimately not worth the stress. I want to go back to the good old days where tourneys WERE for points, BUT I *also* got to enjoy playing against highly skilled people without it becoming some kind of personal vendetta in terms of making SCS or not, where tournaments and leagues happened, and weren't monitored for any little flaw in execution or rules by people 240 miles away in hopes they could get them disqualified and improve their own standings by NOT playing pinball, and a loss was frustrating, but not devastating, because there was no extra BS attached to every single thing you played in.

This conversation has taken a turn for the fascinating! I went from thinking Whysnow was yelling at clouds to feeling like the guy has a point.

I am a little concerned with how IFPA seems to be acting like "well, we've done the research" (along with the snide, belittling of their userbase both here and on other, shittier pinball forums) when it's clear that they didn't really do ALL the research if Whysnow and many other TDs were left out of said "research".

I dunno. Weird. Should be interesting, seeing how this all unfolds.

Being built in the spot of the much-loved, much-maligned Riviera. They had a Pinball Hall of Fame annex!! Drinking dirty martinis + playing Vegas in Vegas in a dingy casino? Pure bliss.

My point exactly....Do you really need a ranking system for just your state to hold your events???

Yeah. They had signs up when I was there for Nationals saying that it was the "future site"....all of the neon was still on the building and turned on even though it was CLEARLY gone. I took some pictures of it, because frankly, it was amazing. We stayed at the Stratosphere and walked 50 miles in 5 days. Which was a hell of a lot more fun than showing up for Nationals on games set up WAY THE F too brutal for *anyone* to enjoy (Yeah, when two SCS reps have literally a THREE MINUTE GAME between the two of them on Game of Thrones...something ain't right..). I liked the hall of fame, did not enjoy Nationals, and even if I were to qualify, I would not go back unless I had days to spend on the strip again. F that.

Exactly the reason why this isn't a big deal

just a state based one. Player base here seems to mainly like the whole idea of gathering points throughout the year in order to work your way into a year end State Championship event.

That is what we are thinking may be the best solution for us.

looking forward to the info from Josh and very appreciative of him being willing to send it along.

i also take issue with the opt in or out that this allows. either opt in, or dont play. if someone gets fourth in a tournament all results should reflect that, not some system in which someone can earn fourth, but the results reflect them winning because the three who beat them didnt pay a buck. either pay the buck, or dont play. keeping track of who payed what and how to record those results sounds like an extra headache for TD's in addition to the fact that it rewards someone for an achievement they did not earn. If this prevents someone from playing, so be it. but i dont think someone paying or not should be reflected in the overall results.

Oh lord, you walked the Strip??!? That's too much man. Next time, stay Downtown where everything is in a few block radius!

Do check out Fremont Arcade Downtown and Flipperspiel (check their blog for times and location), they're worth the trip for sure. And if you're a video game person at all, if you visit the PHoF, look next door at what I think is called "Gamers Paradise". They have the most jaw dropping selection of older stuff, hardware and software, that is definitely worth a browse.

I'm not pretending to know if this is going to work. I honestly have NFI.

What I'm willing to do is conduct a 12 month science experiment to see what happens. Once we're halfway through the 2018 season I'll probably have a good idea the direction we will take things for 2019.

Seeing how it all unfolds is exactly the thing I'm interested in.

Curious if with this new format all states will be afforded the opportunity to host Nationals?

or will it still be played on crappy quality games that are set up poorly in order to match up with your travel schedule Josh?

You got Sharped.

Or: welcome to Sharpesville!

(I couldn't decide...)

Seriously though, the games need to be set up tough or else you'd get two dudes playing GOT for two hours. Ain't nobody got time for dat!!

rd

IMG_5373 (resized).JPG

I love how your opinion of "not a big deal" encompasses convincing people to do (or very questionably dance around) something that's illegal in their state. How is that not a big deal? @_@

Yes, we play Ingress and hit basically every single portal on the Strip in 5 days, as well as a few parks and a bunch of missions. The first night we walked from probably Cesar's all the way back to Stratosphere. It was tortuous. We refused to walk that section again and took more Ubers when it made sense....still ended up walking the same amount per day!

Until my kids are older or I get a divorce Nationals will follow me wherever my work trip takes me.

I honestly do commend you for taking a new approach to things. But I'm also a little concerned about how this is seeming to reward the best of the best and not many else, and I don't know if that's the direction a burgeoning population such as the pinball scene needs right now.

But I'm also not the one calling the shots - you are. Godspeed to you!

love the ifpa, and am very appreciative of all you do but admitting you dont know if this will work, referring to a drastic change of a point system which many care deeply about as a science experiment (that will last a whole year) and a readiness to abandon or completely change it halfway through are not the correct ways to convince an already hesitant crowd that this change will be beneficial.

Oh, you huge dork

At least nobody can say that I didn't call that one...

More accurately, I just got f'ed. Seriously, there's room for some middle ground. Two people at a National level event scoring under 10 million on GOT is not just bad luck. I'll admit I screwed up bad on Fish Tales, but at least I got to actually PLAY it.

The formula for calculating first place value and then the distribution of points from 2nd through last place is available here:

https://www.ifpapinball.com/menu/ranking-info/

If you want the full database of event results for WI shoot me an email. I can query that table and export an excel sheet for you to work with.

Have you SEEN my tattoos? It's Yoshi, blue virus from Dr. Mario, a metroid, and a gamma metroid from Metroid 2.

I have no shame here.

Simple solution, have the IFPA save up all those dollars and pay to have the law changed in WI.

Oh God you're a NINTENDO DORK, that's even worse!!!

(I'm a huge fan, and your tats sound awesome. I'm sure you have a Switch already?)

thanks

From what I gather about our state, that takes about a 100k "donation".

also, if the spread sheet has the full equation to go through and calculate event value and point distribution, then that is even better.

To be serious for one second, I do believe this will help our main goal at IFPA:

"The objective of the International Flipper Pinball Association (IFPA) is to elevate the awareness and visibility of pinball across the globe and generate media coverage and corporate backing to bring the sport of competitive pinball back into the spotlight."

I'm not afraid to be proven wrong but the long term goal of how I see this going for the sport in my head is a positive one. I've also never been afraid to try stuff that I believe push the sport forward, and this is one of those moments where I think the timing it right to try.

Most of the changes we have implemented in 11 years have done two things every time:

1) caused a huge uproar over people not being happy with what we were planning to implement

2) ultimately pushed things forward for the sport in a positive way (at least I believe that)

my suggestion is a base fee payed to enter the SCS based on how many events you played that year. for example, if you make the SCS by playing in 50 local leagues, you owe 50 dollars to the prize pool, if you made it by playing in two big events, you owe two dollars. if you didnt make SCS, you dont pay a dime towards their prize pool. this might not have the benefit of inflating the SCS prize pools as much as desired, but it doesnt require those with no chance of making SCS to fund an elite players hobby, and gets rid of the flaky opt in or out scenario. just tossin it out there.

Nope, no Switch. Have other things to pay off first. Yay for delayed gratification.

Tattoo thread - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/8-bittattoo-put-up-or-shut-up#post-3171113

I believe it had dynamic points and linear points for each finishing position of every event, but that's the best detail we have available. (Should work for you I would think)

Who should I make the check out to?

i think you are unfairly assuming that because more and more people are playing, that the sport is being "elevated". If all of your changes admittedly cause an uproar amongst veteran players, perhaps they are not as elevating as you have been led to believe by our sports growing numbers.

I wonder if one person gets it all or if you need to make 50 $2000 donations to different legislators to buy their vote.

If you're serious, I could get you "secretly" in touch with the people who told me I didn't have enough money to convince them to fix the law.

And, by the way, I'm sure that some people think in kidding. I wish I was.

I'm done though, have much more important things to do five days before mgc than worry about something I already know what my answer is for next year.

Me

I'm assuming that we won't have more people playing in IFPA endorsed events in 2018, but still think our long term goal of elevating the sport is on target.

I don't believe for a second that elevating the sport is strictly based on the number of players that play competitively.

define elevating.

you admit that changes always cause an uproar, admit that less people will play in 2018 but are convinced the game is being elevated? it seems to me like less veterans will be convinced that competitive pinball is a good use of their time and money, and new players will come less frequently due to being required to pay for the higher ups having a bigger prize pool.

as someone who lives in a city with a big pinball scene i can tell you straight up that it is not a lack of new competitors inhibiting the growth of competitive pinball, it is the amount of players who lose interest in competing after only a few months once they see that the point system is extremely difficult to understand, mostly arbitrary, and constantly changing.

I'm worried this is going to impact the number of people playing in local tournaments. We should be trying to expand the number of people playing in tournaments, and getting more people into the hobby overall. If you want to increase state or national payouts, why don't you increase the price of competing in the state or national tournaments. That seems like the more logical thing to do. That way we can achieve both goals.

There was nothing wrong with the games at nationals in Texas. They all played nicely and it was a unique bank for sure!

I don't know if it was as enjoyable as bitching about things I'm not a part of but it was pretty fun!