I personally don't see why some are giving pinlink a hard time. A $1 fee today can grow to a larger fee tomorrow.

Let's not forget how the federal income tax came into existence... It was a 1% tax on those making more than $3,000 annually back in 1913. People said "what's the big deal, it's just 1%".

Again, I support the IFPA and this will not impact events I host at all, but let's not marginalize off hand those that oppose the "it's just a buck" mentality.

Just forfeited this week's dollar.

I look forward to being around 105 years from now to see where my great-great-great grand kids have taken the IFPA fee structure since the inception

I hold free tournaments in cincinnati twice a month. I have let everyone that attends know that in a few months they will all have to pay $1 to play in those tournaments each time and they will probably never see it again.

Not one person has complained. We will see, but I see this having zero effect on my tournament attendance.

This isn't a tax. All "taxes" are paid out to the winners.

Better not try that shit in Wisconsin, cincy boy!!!

I don't really care about the dollar, but I'm rather concerned that this might not be legal in all states, as gambling is largely regulated by state gaming commissions. It gets particularly tricky when the money leaves the state and is disbursed in a tournament of champions situation to out of state residents that didn't pool money equally to enter. Plus this entire process is going to leave a paper trail which could easily be followed by some hick town prosecutor with time on his hands and a rather Calvinist leaning interpretation of the morality that surrounds games of skill.

In my state it appears that everything would be legal up until the money crosses state lines, or at least it seems that way using a golf tournament or a group of people playing poker at home as a legal reference point. After that it's a much murkier issue.

What I would prefer is a flat fee of $20 or so per year to the IFPA per player, with a two year waiver for unranked players. Two years is plenty long to decide if you care to be ranked or not. Perhaps there could be a 4 tournaments or less per year waiver as well, for people that just show up from time to time and aren't "serious" about competetive play.

Also relying on a tournament organizer keeping track of who played, who paid, sending off the money, not losing it, not having a family emergency requiring it, just flat out skipping town, etc is a bad idea. With the $20 per year system the entire thing could be automated with a PayPal button next to a players' name on the website.

Legally speaking, I assume that as a 501 C3 or whatever IFPA is they can do whatever they wish with the money as long as it is benefitting the members of the 'club' or 'benevolent order'. This gets us away from having to fuck with 50 states and countless local gambling laws. If it's still a grey area, mail each of us a keychain and membership card or something so that you're providing value beyond the tournament.

Just my two cents.

In my tournaments it's $1 or you aren't playing. If I see a drop in attendance due to having to pay a dollar, I'll pay it for everyone to get them back in the game.

Don't worry Cincinnati I'm not gonna skip town with $20-$30 each month.

We at SAPP will be taking the dollar from the prize pool of each tournament. No one cared when we brought it up.

What if........there was no prize pool!?

Dun..Dun....dunnnnnnnnnnn!

He didn't say you should try it behind the cheddar curtain. He said that's what his group will do.

Quit bringing Cheese into this Yancy! Never disrespect the cheese!

You could easily get a Greyhound as far away as Pittsburgh with that kind of scratch, Chuck.

Ehh, so this is where it gets legally questionable in Washington State. These tournaments seem to be legal as long as every last penny collected is paid out that night. It's maybe still legal if it goes to a 'tournament of champions' and is paid out in the state of Washington at the state championship to a participant in the previous tournaments. If it leaves the state I have no idea. This specific instance isn't discussed, nor is anything other than house games of poker or golf, but the law seems to indicate all payouts must be at the event, or casino, or bingo hall, or place you bought squares for a football game. But if it is legal, sweet. Now just check 49 other states.

CIA, FBI, IRS... PTF?

Pinball Tax Force!

In over 8 years of competitive pinball playing I can honestly say I do not believe I have ever entered a pinball tournament that was free to play in it and/or did not offer a prize pool of any kind.

Here in the events I run, it will simply come out of the prize pool. Casual players won't miss it cause they don't win anyway...usually...and competitive players will have the chance to earn it back at the SCS. I figure if anything this change hurts me more then casuals as I will lose out on prize money in most events and I have one shot to win it back at the end of the year. Plus, every event here gives back to all players with free pizza and/or free beer and/or free random prize giveaways too. You honestly would be a fool to not play in events here locally, even if you go out first round you get all your money back in pizza, beer and prizes regardless.

I could think of at least 400 billion better things to do with the money.

That is not true John. You have played at the Midwest Gaming Classic which has been free since at least 2015. No fee. No prize pool.
Imagine 158 people played for free and no prizes in 2016.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Remind me to move to MN next time we see each other.

You played in my 40th Anniversary tournament. No cover charge, all games on free play. $100 first place. (I forget what 2nd and 3rd got)

LTG : )

I could of played in the MGC Tournament without purchasing tickets to the show? If no, it wasn't free.

Sure I see what you are getting at but you don't have to play in the tournament to go to the show either.

Are there any other shows that provide a free tournament with the price of admission?

MAGfest for one

pretty sure the answer to that for the past few years is yes. The tournament was out in the public hallway and anyone could walk up and play if they wanted.

pretty sure the answer is yes or is the answer yes?

I am not sure if that was intentional, but YES you could walk up without paying to enter the show and play in the completely free IFPA sanctioned event.

If that does not tickle your fancy then you can go to 80% of the other events in the state that have no entry fee. This discussion was more so about events john has played in for free.

I was just going to signup. Looks like it is $85 to attend.

Too...soon?

When we do our weekly tournaments everyone puts $5 into a green Hulk Head at the back of the room. After the tournament starts I pull the money out and shove it in my back pocket. At some point when I get time I count up the money and split it up for the payouts. Now I'm gonna pull out the $1 per player before I do the payouts. Not a single person will notice. Nobody even asks me how I do it now. It's usually $25 for the winning player. Maybe next year it's $20. I don't think that matters.

Besides the PAPA events, I don't even have a clue how much cash I'm going to get when I play in a big pump and dump circuit event. I just get handed envelopes of money at the end if I do well enough and it has some $ amount written on the front of it. As long as you keep the entry fees in multiples of $5 at a time, deduct $1 per player from the overall prize pool, and put the cash in a white envelope with 17th-24th place scribbled on it, nobody will care or notice the money is gone. What they will notice is that they can actually win the cost of a plane ticket+hotel to IFPA Nationals if they win their state tournament!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

Hmmm how about an IFPA crane game?
You can win from 1 tournament entry, flipper rings, plunger springs, to shirts and other pinball stuff.

That had prizes like you just wrote...$100 for first place. In that case I did win that 40th anniversary tournament, so like I said, it would have hurt me cause I would have won less money up front, but SS Billiards hasn't had any IFPA events since I started playing there in 2009 so the fee would never be an issue regardless.

MGC I count the admission as an entry fee. That year the tournament was the main reason I went to MGC and I honestly didn't know they had just stopped giving out prizes that same year when I entered. Back then I really wanted one of those trophies, but Dan did give out certificates instead of trophies at least though, so I didn't go home totally empty handed. For me now MGC, has evolved to so much more than just the main tournament that I don't think not having prizes is a big deal at all.

This post is pure Wisconsin.

Oh, and I should add, YOUR TIME AIN'T FREE!

Yeah, the rest of that show sucks. Nice certificates though.

I love MGC the show it has gotten better and better over the years. You guys do a great job Dan, but at that time I was most excited about the tournament. That has since changed with all the stuff that has been added to the show. I would have paid for the show anyway, but you did need to pay for the event to play in the tournament, you couldn't access that area without a wristband and rightfully so. I was disappointed you had stopped giving out trophies since I would have gotten one, but I appreciated at least the certificates and I still have mine framed in the gameroom.

I know, I just also know that Magfest is better with a better "free" tournament, and that I must be an idiot who doesn't understand the law.

None of which you said of course, but since I hear a lot of the same stuff, sometimes I want to be a snarky ass You just happened to catch it.

Aha! Confirmed! We have *something* else to do there!

Having said that, while yes it was in the hall near the entry, we did ask that people have wristbands for it. We had thought about putting it on the "other" side of the paywall but that created a host of different problems, and none of them solved the main thing we were trying to fix.

Yeah, me too, but it's not my choice.

We do have nice certificates though. I probably signed the one on your gameroom

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how many people I have seen with theirs framed. I think most people understand it is the best we could do. I'd like to bring back trophies too.

It's fascinating that we can give out actual trophies for best in show, but not for anything else.

The only other big show I have ever been to is Expo so I don't have a lot to compare to, but I do like MGC as a show more than Expo personally. I knew you had to pay for wristbands to play in the tournament and rightfully so IMHO, it is a feature of the show and shouldn't be free to enter. I know and understand why you had to stop with the prizes at MGC, I just didn't know beforehand that first year so it was disappointing because I wanted to win one. I honestly appreciate everything I win playing in events. I do have all my certificates framed that you signed and I even still have the two-face pinball from Backalley Creations still that I won competing at the After Hours Party at MGC. I still remember how I won it too with an epic game of Cirqus Voltaire. I even considered keeping the 6 pack of Sierra Mist I won playing at the After Hours Party another year...but I was thirsty so it didn't quite make it.

Ugh, you must have been.

If WI competitive play is all for sixers of second-tier soda, I get why there's so much salt in this thread. No one should have to drink that stuff.

Ha. That After Hours Party became the highlight of the entire event for me quickly. The BackAlley pinball, pop six packs and other things were just small tokens to use as prizes to get people to talk with new people and strike up friendly competitive games with one another. It was a great idea and honestly was a lot of fun. There was so much more to eat and drink during those parties I didn't drink the Sierra Mist then, it was out of desperation on the long drive home while I was stuck in the car.

Nobody knew until a day or at most two before the show because I wasn't "informed" until just before that. We did our best to share as quickly and appropriately as possible, while also giving it as best a spin as possible.

I still have some of those trophies in storage.

That was the year that the police actually came and searched the event about three times. Fun times.

I know, and it's totally understandable. It wouldn't have stopped me from going to the show if I had known beforehand anyway. I'd played in a lot of events up to that point, but at the time it was the first big 100+ player tournament I had ever played in so I was especially excited about it. You guys are doing great things with MGC, it's awesome to see how far you have gone with it. I wish we had a convention even half as cool as it in MN. I had to miss MGC this year, but I hope I can get out there again next year and see it in all it's glory at the new huge location.

Just for the record, I'm sorry. Rereading my words from last night, it sounded like i remained a snarky ass, and that wasn't my intention.

That year, my love of tournaments - and to be frank running the whole damn show - really took a big hit. It has since been buoyed a lot by the understanding of the actual people who have understood and participated since, including yourself.

I do get annoyed when people who don't participate feel the need to tell me that I'm doing it wrong. They weren't there for the police searches, they weren't there for the meetings, and they expect I can just go online and explain everything with no problem so they can pick it apart and say I'm wrong.

And Magfest is better I'm sure, I've heard that before!

What I will say is this - since the tournaments went free, and this counts for all our tournaments, we have had more players in a better mood than before. The competition got better, the people that run the tournament went from really disliking certain aspects of it to loving it, and the finals have all ran smoother because people are playing for what I feel is the right reason - fun.

If we aren't able to do the ifpa points this year, which I think is a real possibility, we will just continue to do things that are fun. It would open the door to us doing some ridiculous stuff. And I'd be totally fine with that, as I think would most of the people attending.

It still wouldn't be as good as Magfest I'm sure, but hey, it would be fun and that's all I can do.

Dan > what do you think about split flipper Joust tournament this year?

Teams can pre-register and then we make up a huge bracket and they just go at it.

Alternatively we could use 2-player joust as the split flipper the the goal for each team is to get the highest score for player 1.

Take player 1 score and minus player 2 score to get the combined team score...
1 person on each side and player 2 is just trying to score points for player 1 and avoid points for player 2.

Do you have a Joust?

I have Viza War but it sucks and I hate moving it, and Alvin G Soccer Ball. If I get my act together I also have a pair of NBAFB, but realistically I won't have my act *that* together by the show. One of those NBAs is like a pile of parts...

I'm always open to doing wacky head to head stuff, so long as the games and someone to help run it is there.

yes, I have a Joust. If we wanted to use it, I could put efforts into getting it ready by then.

Let me put it this way, if you'd like to use it, I'm all for it. I don't know who I could get to manage the tournament, but I could easily set it up for registration and whatnot if anyone wanted to.

ok. stay tuned. I will make sure I can get it working solid and then report back.

Do you want to use it for:
1. Split flipper team vs challenge (1 team on each side; big old bracket of elimination)
or
2. Team flipper for player 1 high score (each person plays one side and they work together to get best score for player 1) This would be in place of the regular split flipper and could just run through the normal crew as the "split flipper" event.

Let's talk more in a non Ifpa thread. In short, I'm good for whatever works best, but I don't have enough time on Joust to know. It's actually my least favorite head to head game, although Viza War is a close second.

Yes, let's stay on topic in this thread as this is an important issue that impacts the future of competitive play. This thread will start to get really interesting in January I believe.

What's the issue with just having ifpa membership fees or making the scs players fund their own pot?

There are way more positives going that route from a TD, logistics, getting new faces entered, etc perspective (than going down the current project path) unless I'm missing something?

You are, 28 pages of pissing and moaning.