(Topic ID: 185444)

IFPA Charging Fees for Tournaments in 2018

By Eric_S

6 years ago


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#1101 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

in some cases, yes. We have events where free really does mean 100% free.
in most cases, the majority of WI events you could get by with spending under $5 (coin drop and a cheap beer if that is your thing) and in that case there are some people that dont have the funds and I have personally paid for their games so it was still free.

I don't understand how the Hell this does any good for anybody.

Apparently in Wisconsin (the center of the competitive pinball universe), the scene subsists mostly upon pointless tournaments with zero stakes, and operator/locations making 5 bucks per person (gross/before expenses) for these events. Seems like for most of them these places would have "made" more money if they didn't even bother opening that day.

The majority of the crying in this thread centers around the "this isn't good for pinball!" argument. Well that's all well and good, but pinball needs to learn what Vegas figured out decades ago - attracting cheapskates isn't good for business.

We are professionals here folks! Let's turn up the volume a little!

#1102 6 years ago

Free to enter tournament ($1 if you'd like your results added to the IFPA rankings)

That isnt hard to do.

Ill advertise as:
Entry fee is $10 or $5 for first timers. $1 per player will be subtracted from pot and split will be %40/30/20/10 .

17
#1103 6 years ago

All these free tourneys, and brand new players, shouldn't really be counted towards the "world rankings" anyway IMO.
I have always thought the rankings have been diluted too much by allowing just anyone to put their event up and get points. I had wondered if having the ifpa choose the only events that would be used to decide rankings would not be a better way to determine the rankings.
But the ifpa has done it the way they have, and TDs have figured out how to abuse the system and pump up their events to get inflated points that they don't deserve, time and time again.
So this is a great way to trim the fat, and tell people to be a bit more serious, while getting rid of the Superleagues and free point frenzies that plague the system.
And everyone acting like they just can't possibly hold their free events now! Just hold the damn event and don't register, guess what? All those new players won't give a shit about rankings, and never would have, especially if people don't go around complaining about NOT getting any wpprs.
Pool leagues aren't free (VNEA,BCA, etc), bowling leagues aren't free, dart leagues aren't free, the list goes on...
If people want to compete in pinball, want to be considered a world ranked player, have a shot at "state" or "nationals", then they will pay.
If you're not that serious and don't care, go find some local freebie stuff or play dollar games with your friends.

#1104 6 years ago

Having the IFPA choose the events that contribute to the rankings would be a huge, huge time investment. Plus, having free events really only dilutes the bottom, what, 20,000 players? You're not going to get enough points by playing free tourneys to become anyone notable. It's also partly why they only take your best 20 scores in consideration for rankings. So you can't get a crazy ranking just by playing more if you're in an area with a dozen free tournaments every week.

People are welcome to play 20 free tournaments worth 3-5 points to the number 1 spot but they're still not going to crack the top thousand players. It's a non issue. If you want big points, you inevitably have to go to big events. And do well at that. The top 100 players aren't just bumming around free tourneys in small cities.

-1
#1105 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

in some cases, yes. We have events where free really does mean 100% free.

That's pretty cool!

Quoted from Whysnow:

in most cases, the majority of WI events you could get by with spending under $5

So, not free.

Quoted from JNX:

Free events with respect to my usage are events where players at a venue pay any regular charges to play, whether it is coin drop or membership/ day pass fees.

So, not free.

#1106 6 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

It does help in making the smaller events not be hurt by fees. Still does not fix the legal concerns 100% but it can be better framed as it's not per player but based on event size and that may make it better in the legal area.

Scaling the fee up/down doesn't improve the 'per event' story because it doesn't add anything unique to the idea of just collecting 'per event' anyways. And smaller events were not complaining about the amount of the fee (except for the 'free' case). This doesn't address any of the concerns raised.

#1107 6 years ago
Quoted from DNO:

All these free tourneys, and brand new players, shouldn't really be counted towards the "world rankings" anyway IMO.
I have always thought the rankings have been diluted too much by allowing just anyone to put their event up and get points. I had wondered if having the ifpa choose the only events that would be used to decide rankings would not be a better way to determine the rankings.
But the ifpa has done it the way they have, and TDs have figured out how to abuse the system and pump up their events to get inflated points that they don't deserve, time and time again.
So this is a great way to trim the fat, and tell people to be a bit more serious, while getting rid of the Superleagues and free point frenzies that plague the system.
And everyone acting like they just can't possibly hold their free events now! Just hold the damn event and don't register, guess what? All those new players won't give a shit about rankings, and never would have, especially if people don't go around complaining about NOT getting any wpprs.
Pool leagues aren't free (VNEA,BCA, etc), bowling leagues aren't free, dart leagues aren't free, the list goes on...
If people want to compete in pinball, want to be considered a world ranked player, have a shot at "state" or "nationals", then they will pay.
If you're not that serious and don't care, go find some local freebie stuff or play dollar games with your friends.

@dno, I'll buy you a "free" beer if I ever see you at an event/tourney. 23 pages of this crazy bickering about how people are upset they will no longer get something for free (WPPR points). Seen your argument posted a dozen times so far in this thread and still, when summarized nicely I could not give enough thumbs up!

#1108 6 years ago
Quoted from smokedog:

People keep mentioning 'free' events. Are they truly free? Someone can show up and not spend a dime and play? No coin drop, no drinks, no food, just show up and play?
That's awesome if so.

Free meaning that a random person at the arcade playing alone when asked if they'd like to join the tournament isn't going to have to pay any more than they were already paying. It's easy to talk them into trying competitive pinball in that case. If it costs money them extra money it's more likely they say "no thanks".

#1109 6 years ago

actually, the competition is still free in your 'not free' examples.

I mean, you still need to pay for your gas to get there. You still need to pay for the clothes you are wearing since shirt and shoes are a requirement of the establishment. You still need to fee yourself since food is required for life...

The actual cost to play pinball can be as little as $3 for a night of competition, but the actual tournament and competition has always been 100% F R E E, run by voulenteers not getting paid, and no additional cost to the player.

-2
#1110 6 years ago

Well, I guess all the tournaments I run are 'free' as well.

6 PM all games on free play for the entire event. Tournament starts at 7 PM. $10 to play the games. Tournament is free.

#1111 6 years ago
Quoted from MrDucks:

Free meaning that a random person at the arcade playing alone when asked if they'd like to join the tournament isn't going to have to pay any more than they were already paying. It's easy to talk them into trying competitive pinball in that case.

If your community consists of a player basis like your example, I would strongly urge the TD to offer the rankings as an 'opt in' for that particular player base.

Then you can absolutely tell that random person at the arcade playing alone if they would like to join the tournament. There's no additional charge for them to participate.

If they find joy in that participation and choose to want to join the ranks of the IFPA "officially", that's completely up to them, no outside pressure needed.

#1112 6 years ago
Quoted from DNO:

All these free tourneys, and brand new players, shouldn't really be counted towards the "world rankings" anyway IMO.
I have always thought the rankings have been diluted too much by allowing just anyone to put their event up and get points. I had wondered if having the ifpa choose the only events that would be used to decide rankings would not be a better way to determine the rankings.
But the ifpa has done it the way they have, and TDs have figured out how to abuse the system and pump up their events to get inflated points that they don't deserve, time and time again.
So this is a great way to trim the fat, and tell people to be a bit more serious, while getting rid of the Superleagues and free point frenzies that plague the system.
And everyone acting like they just can't possibly hold their free events now! Just hold the damn event and don't register, guess what? All those new players won't give a shit about rankings, and never would have, especially if people don't go around complaining about NOT getting any wpprs.
Pool leagues aren't free (VNEA,BCA, etc), bowling leagues aren't free, dart leagues aren't free, the list goes on...
If people want to compete in pinball, want to be considered a world ranked player, have a shot at "state" or "nationals", then they will pay.
If you're not that serious and don't care, go find some local freebie stuff or play dollar games with your friends.

DNO for next IFPA President

Rather than us choosing at the 'corporate' level, we're giving that power to the TD's to independently choose whether they want to participate or not.

What I'm realizing is that people LOVE LOVE LOVE their free WPPR's, and I understand it hurts to feel like that's being taken away from you . . . because yeah, it kind of is. I promise it's for what I feel is the greater good of the sport and the direction we want to take it at the IFPA, and don't want to stop encouraging people to continue to compete for the greatest reason of all . . . FUN.

#1113 6 years ago
Quoted from DNO:

All these free tourneys, and brand new players, shouldn't really be counted towards the "world rankings" anyway IMO.
I have always thought the rankings have been diluted too much by allowing just anyone to put their event up and get points. I had wondered if having the ifpa choose the only events that would be used to decide rankings would not be a better way to determine the rankings.
But the ifpa has done it the way they have, and TDs have figured out how to abuse the system and pump up their events to get inflated points that they don't deserve, time and time again.

It's been a bit of a 'have your cake and eat it too'

The low barrier of entry has been a positive to help promote the system and pinball (and try to keep admin overhead low)
.. but also lead to people trying to game the system. Which is why the requirements and scoring are on their umpteenth iteration of refinement as they play whack-a-mole with the new schemes people come up with.

But since the rankings carry little direct value... a level of slop in the system is tolerable as long as the bigger objectives are still being met. Growing the interest was working.. so trend gently. You don't need PERFECTION.. you want to embrace the velocity but just keep things pointed in the direction you want. I think Josh & Co. have done a reasonably good job of balancing this.. and have finally taken some of the big steps to correct some of the more rampant abuse of the spirit of the system.

Now, they feel the time is right to move to the next phase.. and target some new objectives. Changes they know will directly impact the velocity/volume of activity, but they are expecting that.

Quoted from DNO:

And everyone acting like they just can't possibly hold their free events now! Just hold the damn event and don't register, guess what? All those new players won't give a shit about rankings, and never would have, especially if people don't go around complaining about NOT getting any wpprs.
Pool leagues aren't free (VNEA,BCA, etc), bowling leagues aren't free, dart leagues aren't free, the list goes on...
If people want to compete in pinball, want to be considered a world ranked player, have a shot at "state" or "nationals", then they will pay.
If you're not that serious and don't care, go find some local freebie stuff or play dollar games with your friends.

Yup.. I've said it earlier. If you don't value your events enough that you don't think a $1/head can be covered... I think you are doing it wrong.

#1114 6 years ago

I'm always curious about these free events. I have played in over 40 IFPA events in the last couple of years and none of them have been free.

Must be nice!

#1115 6 years ago

I'm loving the calls for exclusivity and culling the herd. You are absolutely destoying the business model, folks.

The idea is to use the underlings to fund the Big Fish. Can't do that if the minnows aren't welcome.

#1116 6 years ago
Quoted from smokedog:

That's pretty cool!

So, not free.

So, not free.

If it is not a free tournament, then how many dollars were collected/ awarded for the tournament?

That's right, sportsfans, ZERO.

#1117 6 years ago
Quoted from JNX:

I'm loving the calls for exclusivity and culling the herd. You are absolutely destoying the business model, folks.
The idea is to use the underlings to fund the Big Fish. Can't do that if the minnows aren't welcome.

At this point I can literally feel your pain at what this change will mean to you personally, and for that I do genuinely apologize.

I'm appreciative in your extreme passion and interest in the rankings, and if things fall as flat as you think they will under our model, then you'll only have one year of dealing (or not dealing) with it.

#1118 6 years ago

didn't see this linked, but a member on tiltforums posted this there, hope it's okay to repost here as it's a neat analysis:
http://spacecitypinball.com/blog/WPPR_Fee_Analysis.html

as this discussion continues, it seems this keeps popping up:

"it's only a dollar" - ignores the principal argument people are making. Not sure why, but this dismissal of 'it's only a dollar' seems a bit more emblematic of the ways some people see things - see what you think is an injustice and either 'deal' with it or fight it (I am not calling the $1 change an injustice here, just saying that some people are representing it in that kind of way). The burden also seems to be on the TDs to deal with this. Wondering how IFPA/Josh will make it easiest for TDs to submit these funds and what other legal issues might arise from collecting money to redistribute nationally, this would seems to bring up interstate commerce issues, but I'm no tax lawyer, nor do I play one on the interwebs.

#1119 6 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Currently out of 50,000 players in the database only 4000 have "registered" accounts (that's currently FREE to do).
Even at no charge suddenly 92% of the players in our database would be suppressed players.

Maybe that's a good indicator that 92% of the players who have ever accidentally found themselves in the midst of a pinball tournament, don't put much value in your points and don't feel much of an incentive to donate $1 to a prize pool that is realistically only attainable to a select number of players?

Can't you get Mexico to pay for the State/National prize pools?

#1120 6 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

Can't you get Mexico to pay for the State/National prize pools?

He's probably hoping to implement these changes sooner and more definitively than "eventually ... at some time" and "in some form."

#1121 6 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

Maybe that's a good indicator that 92% of the players who have ever accidentally found themselves in the midst of a pinball tournament, don't put much value in your points and don't feel much of an incentive to donate $1 to a prize pool that is realistically only attainable to a select number of players?

Exactly, it's a GREAT indicator . . . which is why we're doing this at the EVENT level and not the PLAYER level.

For the 157 players that just played in the Texas Pinball Festival, if we went the player registration method, on average we would get $13 from the 8% of interested players in that tournament.

At the event level, we're able to capture all 157 of those players because TPF funds the endorsement fee out of their prize pool (like they just did with the $5 per player PAPA Circuit fee this year that nobody noticed). We're able to generate $157 towards the TX SCS and Nationals pool using this method.

#1122 6 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

At this point I can literally feel your pain at what this change will mean to you personally, and for that I do genuinely apologize.
I'm appreciative in your extreme passion and interest in the rankings, and if things fall as flat as you think they will under our model, then you'll only have one year of dealing (or not dealing) with it.

the other option is to just opt to invest your time and energy as both a TD and player in any alternative system that comes around with a promise to never collect fees and to respect the time investment that others will put in to voulenteer to host, submit, and track in order to grow the group as a collective.

The one thing I still have not seen you even acknowledge Josh, is that up till this IFPA was a community built, supported, and run vibe. Sure you established the foundation, but the growth and nourishing came from the community.

There was this whole community of active TDs, players, hosts, etc... that all felt vested in helping to make the IFPA better and to help competitive pinball grow. I think you have missed that for many people the passion seems personal because they have vested and invested in something that up till now had that greater good community thing happening. You now took that all away and even devalualed some of the personal investment for many. I think this is some of the hurt.

You dont simply get buy-in back when you abuse the inherent trust of a community and then say "oops, fun social experiement" after a year.

11
#1123 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

The one thing I still have not seen you even acknowledge Josh, is that up till this IFPA was a community built, supported, and run vibe. Sure you established the foundation, but the growth and nourishing came from the community.

Fully acknowledged Hilton. The IFPA was built on the backs of all the interested TD's, hosts, players that you mentioned. Without them taking the time and effort to register their events with us, there would be no rankings system. With that said I think TD's have used the IFPA for their own benefit with respect to WPPR points being a motivating factor towards boosting attendance. We're happy to put in the 2 hours a day of work reviewing/approving calendar submissions, results submissions, profile updates and general questions in return for us being able to leverage the work the TD's have done to get these events under the IFPA umbrella of endorsed events.

The time has come for us to go a direction I feel will "elevate the awareness and visibility of pinball across the globe and generate media coverage and corporate backing to bring the sport of competitive pinball back into the spotlight", as our mission statement has said since day 1.

We will continue to rely on the community to move things forward, but no doubt there will be casualties of TD's and players that refuse to take part in our movement. For those people I'm extremely appreciative of their past support, and hope that the sacrifice of their support is not done in vain.

As you can personally speak to, any TD interested in pursuing an alternate system has our full support. I didn't hesitate to send you our entire database of results for WI, and will send anything and everything we have to any interested party. That's the least I can do to support those that have supported us so well in the past.

#1124 6 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Exactly, it's a GREAT indicator . . . which is why we're doing this at the EVENT level and not the PLAYER level.
For the 157 players that just played in the Texas Pinball Festival, if we went the player registration method, on average we would get $13 from the 8% of interested players in that tournament.
At the event level, we're able to capture all 157 of those players because TPF funds the endorsement fee out of their prize pool (like they just did with the $5 per player PAPA Circuit fee this year that nobody noticed). We're able to generate $157 towards the TX SCS and Nationals pool using this method.

OK, that seems on the level.

Now it's just up to the Tournament Directors to decide whether or not their 2018 events are IFPA Sanctioned or not, correct?

#1125 6 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

This is a good point, but keep in mind the WPPR system is not designed for all competitive players. Think of it as a system for pro player rankings rather than amateurs.

"Pro" pinball players.... that always cracks me up. How many people out there claim playing pinball as their profession? I think I may have met one once... he lived in a cardboard box and smelled pretty bad! If playing with those dudes is what WPPR points is all about, you can count me out.

#1126 6 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

OK, that seems on the level.

Now it's just up to the Tournament Directors to decide whether or not their 2018 events are IFPA Sanctioned or not, correct?

Exactly right.

A TD with a group of players that have no interest in the IFPA or WPPR points or SCS or the like shouldn't bother having their event endorsed and paying the fee.

For TD's that do have a group of players that are interested, I highly suggest talking with your particular base regarding an implementation strategy that works best for those involved.

#1127 6 years ago

the community on the board is pretty much 50/50 on the deal.

So it's cool to have no options aside from not participating? Additionally, now we're discussing the topic in differing groups.

That doesn't sound divisive to you? or is that the objective?

11
#1128 6 years ago
Quoted from JNX:

That doesn't sound divisive to you? or is that the objective?

Yes Josh, please state the objective behind this. I'm not sure I was able to wrap my mind around it the last 7,265 times you stated it.

Also, can you point out any and all ramifications this may have in the state of Wisconsin?

#1129 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yes Josh, please state the objective behind this. I'm not sure I was able to wrap my mind around it the last 7,265 times you stated it.

Also, can you point out any and all ramifications this may have in the state of Wisconsin?

Now that I've met you, it allows me to read your posts in "Levi's voice" . . . and boy does that make them wayyyyyyyyyy more entertaining

-1
#1130 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

The one thing I still have not seen you even acknowledge Josh, is that up till this IFPA was a community built, supported, and run vibe. Sure you established the foundation, but the growth and nourishing came from the community.

I would bet that Josh alone has spent as much or more time on IFPA stuff than all the state dudes put together. His "sweat equity" justifies him making these decisions. Plus he said he already ran it by most of the state ppl before announcing it.

#1131 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

There was this whole community of active TDs, players, hosts, etc... that all felt vested in helping to make the IFPA better and to help competitive pinball grow. I think you have missed that for many people the passion seems personal because they have vested and invested in something that up till now had that greater good community thing happening. You now took that all away and even devalualed some of the personal investment for many. I think this is some of the hurt.

You dont simply get buy-in back when you abuse the inherent trust of a community and then say "oops, fun social experiement" after a year.

As a TD, host and player I totally disagree. I sure hope that you are not trying to speak for the rest of us, because it sure sounds that way. While the system has been far from perfect it has still literally created a framework for the whole planet to be part of. It is impossible to create a system that is square peg in square hole for 100% of the localities. The laws in WI seem to be a round hole, but it still appears you are on tilt and blowing this out of proportion. Josh is more than willing to work with you few squeaky wheels and all the while you keep trying to put him down, accuse him of who knows what and put a shiv in his back.

#1132 6 years ago

I'm so tired of hearing "it worked for Big Buck Hunter!"

Big Buck Hunter is not pinball.

BBH is 1 single game with a very simple objective. Pinball is literally 1000's of different games all with complicated rules and different strategies which are hard to understand for the general public. It's very easy for the general public to understand how to play BBH, which makes it appeal to a MUCH larger audience and easier to get corporate sponsors.

You are comparing apples to oranges, Josh.

Shrinking the competitive pinball scene, and following what worked for BBH, is not the answer.

#1133 6 years ago

Out of curiosity how do tournaments for other games of skill such as bowling, fishing, darts and pool, exist in WI? Do they operate without entry fees and/or payouts?

There's some stuff in here (from 2000) but most of it is historical (and quite hysterical even).

"Some games involving chance have been permitted due to the amount of skill involved
in playing them. Pinball machines were permitted, but a 1935 attorney general’s opinion held
that they could be considered illegal gambling devices if players were awarded anything of
value based on points accumulated (24 OAG 536). Chapter 91, Laws of 1979, specified, however,
that the awarding of immediate free replays would be considered legal."

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/misc/lrb/research_bulletins/rb_00_01.pdf

On the other hand, this memo which appears to be from the WI Division of Gaming states:

"Conversely, if an activity predominately involves skill, then it would not meet the statutory definition.
Skill based games would include paying to guess the number of marbles in a jar, pool, darts, bean bag
toss, etc. and would be legal for individuals, businesses, non-profit organization’s to conduct without any
license requirements."

http://www.doa.state.wi.us/Documents/DOG/Charitable/Raffle/Raffle%20Frequently%20Asked%20Questions.pdf

I'm a bit baffled on how "guessing the number of marbles in a jar" would be considered more of a game based on skill than pinball?! Is there an International Marble Guessing Association out there or should I create one? www.IMaGA.org is available...

There is other possibly pertinent information about accepting online payments ("Can I sell tickets on the internet?") and events in bars ("Can bars to Meat Raffles and play Bingo?") in this document, but I'm not a law-talking-dude.

Lots to figure out before machine-learning robot pinball players start entering tournaments and winning all the top prizes.

#1134 6 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

... Josh is more than willing to work with you few squeaky wheels and all the while you keep trying to put him down, accuse him of who knows what and put a shiv in his back.

I am amazed every day when I read new attacks (or mostly old attacks rehashed) that don't put Josh on tilt (poker kind, not pinball). Josh... if you haven't tried winning a few bucks at Texas Holdem before, you should seriously consider it.

#1135 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinzap:

I am amazed every day when I read new attacks (or mostly old attacks rehashed) that don't put Josh on tilt (poker kind, not pinball). Josh... if you haven't tried winning a few bucks at Texas Holdem before, you should seriously consider it.

Don't worry . . . I take it all out on my wife and kids at home

#1136 6 years ago
Quoted from pinlink:

I'm so tired of hearing "it worked for Big Buck Hunter!"
Big Buck Hunter is not pinball.

Ironically, I was in discussion with a pinball guy here in NZ a week ago, and he says "we need to jazz it up! Get some girls in! Play some music! Have you seen what they do with Big Buck Hunter!?!"

"Well, now that you mention it ...."

rd

-1
#1137 6 years ago
Quoted from pinlink:

I'm so tired of hearing "it worked for Big Buck Hunter!"

Big Buck Hunter is not pinball.

BBH is 1 single game with a very simple objective. Pinball is literally 1000's of different games all with complicated rules and different strategies which are hard to understand for the general public. It's very easy for the general public to understand how to play BBH, which makes it appeal to a MUCH larger audience and easier to get corporate sponsors.

You are comparing apples to oranges, Josh.

Shrinking the competitive pinball scene, and following what worked for BBH, is not the answer.

Your opinion is duly noted.

#1138 6 years ago
Quoted from pinlink:

BBH is 1 single game with a very simple objective. Pinball is literally 1000's of different games all with complicated rules and different strategies which are hard to understand for the general public.

BBH = shoot the correct animals for points. If you shoot the wrong animals you lose.
Pinball = shoot targets/switches for points. Don't let the ball drain down the sides or middle or you lose.

Yes, pinball games have more nuanced rules than simply shooting targets, but I'd imagine BBH is the same way... additional challenges and bonuses for skillful play. I can't imagine BBH would still be a 'thing' if it was simpley "shoot the bucks, not the does"

#1139 6 years ago
Quoted from pinlink:

I'm so tired of hearing "it worked for Big Buck Hunter!"
Big Buck Hunter is not pinball.
BBH is 1 single game with a very simple objective. Pinball is literally 1000's of different games all with complicated rules and different strategies which are hard to understand for the general public. It's very easy for the general public to understand how to play BBH, which makes it appeal to a MUCH larger audience and easier to get corporate sponsors.
You are comparing apples to oranges, Josh.
Shrinking the competitive pinball scene, and following what worked for BBH, is not the answer.

I'm so tired of hearing people say what won't work rather then providing solutions on what will work. NEW solutions, not the same suggestions that have already been mentioned in this thread.

Lets say BBH is an apple, its not self funded. Lets say IFPA is an orange that is self funded. There are two different methodologies being used to increase the pots in those respective arenas. The point is with increased pots, that can increase the competitive pinball scene, not shrink it.

-2
#1140 6 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

Out of curiosity how do tournaments for other games of skill such as bowling, fishing, darts and pool, exist in WI? Do they operate without entry fees and/or payouts?

They exist in WI with entry fees and payouts, people do it and aren't arrested. There are active pinball events in Wisconsin with entry fees and payouts. There is just a group of WI players who are anti IFPA for whatever reason.

#1141 6 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

There is just a group of WI players who are anti IFPA for whatever reason.

that is not even remotely close to reality

#1142 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

that is not even remotely close to reality

Fair enough... should he change "a group" to "a couple"?

#1143 6 years ago
Quoted from Baiter:

This is a good point, but keep in mind the WPPR system is not designed for all competitive players. Think of it as a system for pro player rankings rather than amateurs.

Why?

A system allowing to rank everyone would be preferable IMO.
Think about Chess ELO ranking. Same system for world-class players and amateurs.
A Grand Master would have a 2700-2800 ELO, a novice 1500 or less. A 300 point-difference between two players means a lot.
(ELO does have shortcomings though)

#1144 6 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

Josh is more than willing to work with you few squeaky wheels and all the while you keep trying to put him down, accuse him of who knows what and put a shiv in his back.

Perhaps 20 to 25 of us pinball players could pitch in a dollar ($1) towards buying Josh a t-shirt as a Christmas present this year.
Stab-in-the-Back[1] (resized).jpgStab-in-the-Back[1] (resized).jpg

-1
#1145 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yes Josh, please state the objective behind this. I'm not sure I was able to wrap my mind around it the last 7,265 times you stated it.
Also, can you point out any and all ramifications this may have in the state of Wisconsin?

The objective has changed throughout the thread.

The stated intent does not necessarily equal the actual objective at certain times in the thread.

Some, like yourself, seem content to just accept whatever it is thrown out there, regardless of logic or impact.

Let's stop discussing it and it will miraculously change into a logical, well thought out, effective strategy...

#1146 6 years ago
Quoted from JNX:

Some, like yourself, seem content to just accept whatever it is thrown out there, regardless of logic or impact.
Let's stop discussing it and it will miraculously change into a logical, well thought out, effective strategy...

Maybe I just don't care.

IT'S A DOLLAR.

#1147 6 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

A system allowing to rank everyone would be preferable IMO.
Think about Chess ELO ranking. Same system for world-class players and amateurs.
A Grand Master would have a 2700-2800 ELO, a novice 1500 or less. A 300 point-difference between two players means a lot.
(ELO does have shortcomings though)

We do have the IFPA Ratings System, which perhaps fills the void as a 'rankings for all' system.

We currently have non-points events on the calendar that don't feed WPPR, but do feed the IFPA Ratings System. That's likely to continue for any events that want to be on our calendar and submit results, but not be officially endorsed for inclusion in the WPPR system.

Here is a link to the rankings sorted based on the IFPA Rating for each player:

https://www.ifpapinball.com/rankings/overall.php?s=r&t=100

#1148 6 years ago
Quoted from JNX:

The objective has changed throughout the thread.

The stated intent does not necessarily equal the actual objective at certain times in the thread.

Some, like yourself, seem content to just accept whatever it is thrown out there, regardless of logic or impact.

Let's stop discussing it and it will miraculously change into a logical, well thought out, effective strategy...

The objective has been the same on this campaign going back years before the announcement:

"The objective of the International Flipper Pinball Association (IFPA) is to elevate the awareness and visibility of pinball across the globe and generate media coverage and corporate backing to bring the sport of competitive pinball back into the spotlight."

Now the MESSAGING of how this was communicated has certainly changed, I'll give you that. We focused too much on what the money was for, and not on the services the IFPA has provided for years at no charge, that we're now leveraging as a paid service for the masses who are interested (for the above stated objective).

I'm all for continuing to discuss this forever. We can go back and forth on how and why you don't think this is going to work . . . but is that an actual discussion? To me it's simply you disagreeing with our methodology, and that's fine, but don't I also have the right to disagree with you?

If you have any more discussion points that you want to get into, I don't mind discussing every single last one of them. I'm either a gluton for punishment, or really passionate about what we're doing . . . or a bit of both.

#1149 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

that is not even remotely close to reality

Im not sure what your issue is anymore.

1) Collecting $1 per player and sending to IFPA is illegal in WI and might have some tax consequences etc.

This is moot because you guys are running events with entry fees and payouts now. This argument has zero credibility with me.

2) $1 is to much etc

Run unsanctioned events

3) This is bad for pinball!

This is your opinion, restating it 100 times doesnt make it reality. Lets wait a year and see.

As you see, all the issues you have are addressed above. If you have others I didnt mention, list them here and im sure i can give answers in a sentence or two.

#1150 6 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

Im not sure what your issue is anymore.
1) Collecting $1 per player and sending to IFPA is illegal in WI and might have some tax consequences etc.
This is moot because you guys are running events with entry fees and payouts now. This argument has zero credibility with me.
2) $1 is to much etc
Run unsanctioned events
3) This is bad for pinball!
This is your opinion, restating it 100 times doesnt make it reality. Lets wait a year and see.
As you see, all the issues you have are addressed above. If you have others I didnt mention, list them here and im sure i can give answers in a sentence or two.

local pots are not the same thing as an online 3rd party pot that others not doing your local event can win what your local group put's in to it.

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