The things people fret over just amaze me at times.

Our league hosts will spend $50-$100 out of their own pocket to ensure their guests have a good time.. or someone will spend money buying parts to ensure their games at the best condition... or people buy trophies.. but they freak out about paying for IFPA recognition of the event.

That means either
a) people are lazy and just resist change
b) people don't value what the IFPA offers the event
c) people are afraid of change

I mean heck, the yearly WPPR rule tweaks have had FAR MORE impact on how events are ran and organized than this topic IMO.

My guess is a membership fee would generate a lot less revenue. I compete in my local league as well as in other tournaments (sometimes), but I would probably not buy a membership. Why? Ranking doesn't mean much to me. There are likely a lot of casual players who would do the same thing, especially of the membership fee were ~$25/yr. It's much easier to sneak in a $1 fee for each event.

I'll talk to you in person about this at the next Level 257 final Joe

funny-bingo-memes-08 (resized).jpg

What specific taxes are you referring to?
If this is purely a hypothetical, then someone needs tax advice. And in that case, its no different than it was before. They need advice on their local laws.
IFPA is not introducing the idea of cash entry fees. The tax implications of running an event has always existed.

I'm not clear on the question.
If you are referring to the WI-exception of 'no fee events' - then I think that is on the TD to research and come to an answer on. The same exact way they do today. TD's figure out how to cover expenses today, they will have to figure out what expenses they want to include and how to pay them.

If you are referring to the transaction between the TD and the IFPA, as it is the IFPA who wishes to operate as a business entity providing services and collecting fees, I would propose this is the responsibility of the IFPA to flush that out.

If that situation arises, I'm sure that's a scenario everyone will be happy to work on resolving.. its a good problem to have. With Josh's stated intentions of promoting prize pools, it's a topic that is inevitable if the objective is realized. This gets down into the weeds of 'how', but I would expect the solution ultimately is that the SCS becomes an IFPA function, ran by contractors, and not just a locally ran event under the IFPA banner.

Is there a specific example you have where people are not able to pay expenses when dealing with charities? "100% of proceeds goto..." is a CHOICE organizers make, not a requirement. Those organizers often then recognize their own expenses as a donation to the charity.

The general topic of tax/legal issues with competition is an area that as a central entity focused on promoting competive pinball... is a topic I think should be in the IFPA mission to help people research and understand their constraints. Just like IFPA helps with running tournaments, rules, etc... the legalities/business side is an area that the pooled efforts of the IFPA should be within their scope as well. My 02c

The tax implications of running an event has always existed. yes but most of small local ones are kind of doing it in under the table cash only way. This has people sending funds online that comes with reporting.

EX if you have a garage sale they are mostly cash only and how many people report that?
But this like moving that to a ebay store where that paypal stuff is reported.

Also you have where the same TD's are sending funds to same place event after event or even topping up there funds bank as needed.

I'm not legal, tax or accounting advice person. But I have read about stores about tax / reporting consequences with online payments and this sounds like there maybe some issues to deal with.

also there was online gig job boards years ago where they wanted the independent contractors to have the their customers to pay the job board for all costs parts and labor and have that be reported to the independent contractor as income.

Yes and let me pay a Membership fee per year directly to the IFPA. Then you only get the IFPA perks if you have a membership, everything else stays exactly the same. But thats not what you are doing at all. Like all these other examples people are bringing up like darts. There is a yearly membership fee that needs to be paid before you can participate in any leagues or tournaments. But people dont get charged every league or tournament they enter. Their yearly membership gets them entry into as many events as they would like to compete in.

So your saying a TD should be like a salesman? Again that is not being truthful, as everyone knows sales people can be some of the shadiest people around. Sales people leave out significant facts to try and get the sale. When i enter a tournament i dont want to feel like i got taken advantage of when i figure out there were not telling the whole truth.

so its much easier to sneak in a $1 fee. Why be sneaky about it at all? Why cant you just tell the truth and let people decide if it is worth it?

EDIT: This wasnt quoted from Josh directly, i quoted a quote in his post and that how it came up. But in that post Josh did say BINGO insinuating that this is what he was thinking. Just be honest and let people decide.

Moderator Edit: Attributed the quote to the proper post.

Not free events. which most events in AZ are.

Actually, anyone outside of the US or Canada will still get those perks for free right? Just US and Canada players have to pay. Just clarifying.

Sorry dude, nobody cares about AZ.

This thread is about Wisconsin only!

as it should be.

Ahh just like medicine, the US subsidizes the world.

US/Canada EVENTS have to pay...players can be from anywhere.

For example if a European player shows up to Pinburgh, it's the Pinburgh TD that's responsible for the endorsement fee if that player is included in the final standings submitted to the IFPA.

My "BINGO" was in reference to a flat annual membership fee not generating nearly as much money.

Currently out of 50,000 players in the database only 4000 have "registered" accounts (that's currently FREE to do).

Even at no charge suddenly 92% of the players in our database would be suppressed players.

Once you make those 4000 players pay anything you are only guaranteed that the number decreases. The higher the fee, the higher the attrition rate, making the rankings even more full of suppressed players.

Trying to then convince first time players to pony up $5? $10? $25? for an annual fee puts up a barrier to entry for these new players.

Most of these endorsement fee solutions don't require casual players to pay anything to get a taste of those IFPA perks.

but many of us have agreed to paying a fee for IFPA, even if it differs from the $1 tax per event. You are trying to have it both ways and that is why this topic is split almost evenly down the middle among avid players of the game.

Charge $5 per year to join IFPA. Don't nickel and dime the living hell out of every event in the name of "operational costs" or "we gonna sweeten the pot for nationals."

Make up your mind what direction you are trying to go. Let people decide on its merit if they support it or not. Don't hold people hostage to getting to play in their local events because turdhead TD won't let folks opt out of the tax.

Yet, you are working from the assumption that participation will not decrease with the $1 tax. That would be short-sighted, at best.

"Many of us" ... How many players would you guess would agree to $5 per year?

The only data point I have out of 50,000 players is that 46,000 don't care even at no charge.

The topic is split but we've heard mostly positive feedback to our implementation plan. Yes there are a few people in this thread that have repeatedly made their stance known, and that's appreciated.

How many unique events do you play in a year? (Unique being a monthly recurring event counts as 1, not 12 for the year)

You cannot count monthly events as 1, as IFPA would be drawing $1 from me at each event, or $12 per year.

If i played every event available to me locally, and that is within about a 30 mile radius, mainly at 2 different locations; I could end up paying almost $100/ year to IFPA.

So in asking your economic question, look in the mirror and ask, "What is IFPA giving this player for $100 that wouldn't be the same for a $5 fee?"

In the breakdown of fees and players by PG on the IFPA site, over 2/3 of the players played 5 events or less. So tell me again, if we're driving interest in pinball and leveraging the cache of "points/ rankings" why the $5 wouldn't increase funds versus charging a $1 tax per event?

As a TD im pulling the $1 per player from the prize pool.

Fee to my event is $10 in 2017 and will be $10 in 2018. How is that costing you as a participant of my events almost $100 a year?

I got a much different view of Josh's assumptions from what I read.

Again, pretty sure I read that Josh Indicated that many monthly events (depending on the point totals or something like that) could be submitted once per year or maybe broken up into 2-3 submissions if worth more points.

Not if that event was submitted annually by the TD. There are paths to right sizing this fee to whatever the preference is of that particular community.

For us our location is sponsoring the dollar so it's in our best interest to submit monthly to build the pot.

What events do you specifically play in? Who is the TD? Do you guys know how this is going to be implemented? Have you tried for any local sponsorships? Have there been any decisions made how often results will be submitted?

Won't this just allow players to game the system? Unless there are strictly policed rules about the timing of money collection, many players could decide whether or not to be included in the official results based on their performance. Probably not a huge problem at major events, but many smaller competitions can be pretty casual with that kind of thing.

This decision has to be made BEFORE the event starts if a TD is offering this option.

So best to look into your crystal ball and predict if you'll do well or not before deciding.

If there were 100 separate events within a single year... I'd question the events honestly. (And the hypothetical that a person is playing every 3rd day for a year)

I will deal with those individual TD's privately with respect to their unique situations (and have texted with Dan a bunch already about this). I believe we can find a sponsor specifically for MGC to make sure it's included. Who knows, I might even sponsor the MGC tournaments out of my own pocket since that tournament means a ton to me personally. 11 years ago we ran the first official IFPA tournament for wppr points, and it was at the MGC teaming up with Dan and crew.

dont forget Mad Rollin, the LARGEST charity run event in the entire tri-state region

If you are deciding to sponsor events and waive fees, then charity events are a good idea. Keep in mind that Mad Rollin is likely the largest point value event in the state this year...

Just to be clear no fees will be waived. If they are sponsored then that is an acceptable method of having those dues accounted for. 75% would still go in the WI pool (to be played in my basement), and 25% will go towards the nationals pool.

I'll think about sponsoring MGC or Mad Rollin ... Depends on who's been nicer to me on Pinside between you and Dan. Give me 8 months to think about it

mad rollin would be just as fun without points. You don't need points to have a turn out. Trophies is good enough.

Just going to drain this thread. Josh is clearly just here 'for the lulz' at this point, and trolling. He can absolutely say s--t like "Oh, well, it's now an 'administrative fee'" and the money will go to the same place and anyone that actually cares would know that he's lying.....and get away with it, because the IFPA isn't community owned, it's family owned. And much like a family business with no stockholders, anyone else with an interest can just be hand-waved off. He's made his decision, and there's nothing more that's useful to be said.

If there was ever an assumption that the IFPA was actually community owned then that's my bad. I reach out to the community for feedback constantly but last week I had to file the IFPA tax return and the money owed was definitely on me and my family to pay.

That's only two events a week. It's also easy to restructure those events to report less often which has the dual benefit of increasing your TGP and decreasing the fee.

Not on my part? It's just a statement of why it's futile to continue this conversation for anyone that doesn't agree with you.

Pro tip, don't post one hour after saying you're draining the thread. You'll lose credibility and everyone will know you're coming right back when you make a big show of storming out of the room. I'm married with children, ask me how I know.

Since when in the f00k do I have *any* credibility around here? This place is full of it's own little cliques, none of them which I feel like I belong to....what should I care if someone else thinks I'm credible or not? LOL. I wasn't storming out of the room, either, but I am draining the thread after this post. I felt like Josh's response warranted something, so I posted it. Now, just as before, I'll be leaving voluntarily, because as I stated...I don't think there's anything relevant left to discuss. The decision was made, we've all said our piece, and it's going to go disregarded...so...why waste any more time on it? Ya'll have fun with your BBH brethren next year.. I'll still be playing in local tournaments...just not for points. It is what it is.

Newsflash: I'm married, and have a 12 and a 7 year old. Trust me, people storm out of rooms ALL THE TIME, and come right back in shortly after.

Hilton, how many people do you expect to be playing in this charity event this year? Or how many were there last year and are you anticipating growth, might be a better question.

80ish give or take (all are rated people so likely the largest IFPA point value event in the state this year; we will see after MGC gets posted)

We sell out every year and it is really just a matter of how many slots/people we want to juggle and games used in each pingolf course. I think a few CO folks may come this year. We also get an east coast contingent. Toss on all the regional people (but Josh Sharpe is yet to make it; maybe this will be the year? ) and I think we could easily hit 100 people if we wanted this year. I may open it up a bit and go out with a big bang since this will be the last year it is worth WPPR points.

Sounds like a great event. I hope I can make it this fall. I am a bit confused however, because in a previous post you were asking Josh for sponsorship on the IFPA $1/player fee and then in this post you are saying this is the last year it is going to be worth WPPR points. Sounds like you haven't quite decided which way to go yet. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your request for IFPA fee sponsorship by Josh.

If josh took care of mad rollin, then i would likely continue w ifpa in 2018 for it. Aside from that, this will be the last year.

It changes the payout. Simple math.

I honestly cannot believe the number of people advocating, "Just sneak it by them"

Your members must be a bunch of morons. Seriously.

Having the winners subsidize the fee makes your math incorrect as well.

You would only be responsible for the $1 fee if you won the event played. For casual players who never win this is a non-issue. A majority of the players in our database are these casual players that rarely come close to winning.

If you play in 100 events and win none of them, your admin fee for the year is $0 is Kevin's point.

Now if you play in 100 events and win all of them (in events where TDs are having the winners subsidize the fee) you would end up paying far MORE than $100 for the year.

The point being every community has a bunch of different paths to take on this, and more importantly the perspective of the player analyzing the fee varies greatly depending on how it's implemented.

Do you have any answers to the questions I asked above actually dealing with your situation?

What events do you specifically play in? Who is the TD? Do you guys know how this is going to be implemented? Have you tried for any local sponsorships? Have there been any decisions made how often results will be submitted?

I'm far more interested in discussing your personal actual situation rather than hypotheticals of other player bases around the country.

Im not going to sneak it by them, im just going to say the IFPA fee is getting taken out of the prize pool. Yes, for that event the prize pool shrinks $1 x how many players. It also increases our state championship pot though. If your going to play in 100 events in one year, you must have aspirations to qualify for a state championship.

As Josh mentioned, each community is different which does not correlate to them being "morons". Its possible our local barcade would be open to pickup the $1 per player, im sure if it was for a charity, they'd consider it. Ill worry about that in 2018 though.

This debate has become tiresome.

Now comes the time on Pinside where we dance!

I am the local TD. I think JNX is mistaking our 8 week seasons as 8 separate events. I've also made it clear that we will be getting sponsors to cover the fees for SCPL events. Realistically this doesn't affect any players in my area.

Let's change the discussion to "how do we get Levi to commentate on every major pinball stream" and have a fundraiser to get him a Telestrator!

rd

If you meant a TelePrompTer, I'll kick in $10.

One thing is certain. Crazy Levi does NOT need a Teleprompter! He is on fireeeee in the booth!!!

Here's some great footage of Levi commentating a great pinball moment. Followed by a great discussion on fried chicken. Lol!

Telestrators would be great for Pinball Streams. So the commentators can point out a simple version of a games rules. Like at PAPA on Skateball, draw a circle around the drops and say "you drop these 3 times" and draw an arrow to the scoop and say "and then shoot here a lot' That would go a long way to helping the general public understand what the hell is going on.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telestrator

rd