The point isn't "let's fool the new guys." The point is that the new guys simply won't give a shit about this. In the end, it's going to matter to a) a subset of TDs (who have to deal with administering the new fee, and the minority of players that are going to complain about it) and b) a subset of serious players that enter a ton of tournaments (who may end up paying a more material amount into the new pool). Those people can complain away, but why drag new players into it unless they ask about the prize structure? No better way to turn them off than to demonstrate up front that organized competitive pinball is all about petty bickering.

You also didn't believe I could possibly receive 51% support on this and started a poll to try and prove that.

I think this plan will work ... And that's enough for me to try.

because it is shady to not just be up front about it. People have a certain level of trust and respect at the start for the TD/person running an event. You are taking advantage of that ignorance and respect if you dont at least mention that $1 is being skimmed for another competition.

Simply put, it is not the right thing to do.

If you dont think that people will care, then just tell them the truth instead of the middle truth Nobody wants to be the middle truth guy.

new guy: how much is the tournament
td: $5 and $1 of that goes to registration fees
new guy: ok

or
td: $5 and the bar is covering everyones $1 registration fee so make sure to thank em!

I thought you were busy making your own points system? Why worry about this anymore?

My impression was that JNX and Whysnow were calling for a detailed description of the state/national prize structure, which would be nuts to lay on a new player. But a sentence like this is all good - Whysnow is this "truthy" enough for you?

I have a suggestion about the seeding for the nationals. Let the nationals seeding be based on value contributed by the state. For example, the winner from Washington be the #1 seed of the nationals tournament. This gives some compensation to the state finalist for the amount their state is funding nationals.

Nah, my post was from the local perspective. ""Hey Mr TD, we had 25 players tonight and the winner won $40. Shouldn't it have been $50 at the 40% pot?"

I don't know about your communities, but there are rule nazis in ours who would flip their lid if everything wasn't up front. As a noob, I absolutely asked where the money went and how the payouts worked.

I believe it is a mistake to not have full disclosure, but no, I did not mean that as a player, I would expect to know the State and National breakout of funds, although it would be interesting. I would understand my TD didn't determine that aspect, and that $1 would be going to IFPA for that purpose.

Need to add "new guy's" reaction to 2nd scenario please.....

"hell yeah lets do some shots"

Exactly.

WWWWWA or GTFO

because it is still part of the conversation. Just because I am trying to look at other options does not mean I am no longer participating in the topic.

That would be like saying "you dont own game x, so why are you commenting"
seems like a silly thing to say

No because it is still lying to the new players.

$5 entry and $1 goes toward registration fees is a lie.
$5 entry fee and $1 goes towards state and national prize pot would be the truth.

Both of the examples work for a fee based tourney. What happens when the tourney is free.

Then its:
TD: there is a $1 fee to play
New player: Cool so theres 25 people playing, if i win i get $25!
TD: No thats not how it works
New player: how does it work then?
TD: That $1 per player goes towards state championships and national championships.
New Player: How do i get to state championships do i just show up?
TD: No you have to be in the top 16 of the state to qualify. You will need to play in atleast 30 events to have a chance at playing in the state championships.
New Player: Thanks, I think ill just play some pinball by myself.

spot on and glad other see the difference between the middle truth and the truth

meh, the $1 does get you registered to the IFPA for WPPR points. the dollar is not going to the winners pot of that particular event and that has been established. it is given to the IFPA and at the end of the year the IFPA redistributes that $1 back to the State and National pool.

So the dollar serves two purposes, registration fee for the event and its WPPR's and they could have a chance to win it back at the end of the year. I am glad I'm not a TD but I know all of ours are not gonna be pulling any fast ones on any newbies...

I am so thankful for our community in Colorado and how this will not really have any impact on how our events are run. Hopefully everyone else can figure it out with a way that works for them and their player base, both current and new players alike. I cant think of any way our player base could be more welcoming and inclusive to all players, new and old and of all skill levels.

edit: we have established in this thread that there are many reasons, both legal and ethical, that people may have a problem with the direction the IFPA is going with this fee. I think the TDs will have ample enough time to figure out how to get the pertinent information to the player base. And yes, free based tournaments create a unique challenge as well and I will not dispute that.

Josh, perhaps on the calendar of events for IFPA tournaments you create a disclaimer with the information about the $1 fee, that way any new player that checks out upcoming events on the calendar reads it with the rest of the event info and is fully aware of the $1 fee atleast 30 days prior to the event.

The $1 fee definitely has some perks for new players:

- You officially become a world ranked pinball player
- Player profile will be created to archive all the endorsed events you've played in
- Eligible for the $tern Rewards Program with the chance to purchase games at discounted pricing if interested

For someone like my mom who plays roughly 10 events per year and has never won anything, she considers that $10 as money well spent to track her progress up the world rankings:

https://www.ifpapinball.com/player.php?p=38928

7565th and rising! Watch out ya'll she's coming to get all of us.

You make it sound like those are incremental benefits in comparison with a new player in 2017.

That is not true at all.

Dont whitewash it. Just say what it is for crisakes. I'll say it again, when the alleged advocates of the change cannot sell the bill if goods, it is telling that even you folks see the BS factor in the whole deal.

Sure if you shoot people down.. they arne't going to fight back... and you'd be a shitty state TD (and sales guy). Instead it should be..

New Player: How do i get to state championships do i just show up?
TD: The state championships are invitationals for the top qualifiers in the state. You qualify based on your cumulative performance in events held in the state during the year like this one. The winner of the event is invited to nationals and compete there with state champs from all over and canada too. The event fees help fund the prize pools for these events.. just like your few bucks is funding tonight's prize pool
New Player: So I have to win these events to qualify?
TD: No, the number of points you earn will be based on how you finish. How many points you earn is based on the size and competition in the event. Basically, the better you do, the bigger the event, the more chance for points. The more events you participate in, the more you have contributing. And even if you aren't in the top 16, not everyone can always make it, so often we have to go further down the rankings to fill the event. The IFPA maintains a rankings page where you can see where you stand. It's a neat bonus for those interested and can give people an idea of what competition is like outside just this local bar..

That service that everyone enjoys from the IFPA (being world ranked, having a profile they can customize, tracking their progress, etc) has been a free service.

In 2018 it won't be a free service.

We're leveraging the interest in the wppr system that all players have (especially casual players) as the motivation to continue their interest in that system.

For $10 per year my mom can enjoy those perks (regardless of where that money goes). She no longer gets those perks for free like players do in 2017.

I think the real question right now for Josh should be how in the heck the IFPA hasnt updated their website proclaiming Escher's victory at the PAPA World Championships! Come on man! still feeling the sting of that TZ game tie breaker?

The truth is easy to see. Up until now we've been getting something valuable for free. Now it's not free. Must be worth at least a dollar for you to be complaining so much.

We should all be thankful to have hard working ambassadors of pinball putting this system together over the past however many years and now poised to take the next step forward.

It's comin .... Gotta know how many wppr's he took home first

But we were told the money was to support State and National tournaments. Now it's a "payment for points?" We were told IFPA would not be taking a cut of the money and it was 100% for the tourneys. Is that still true?

Making it up as we go along, eh?

Ultimately it's both. The IFPA isn't taking a cut of the money as we are putting it all towards the SCS and Nationals pools. That doesn't make the benefits any different for those players that choose to participate in an IFPA endorsed event.

Players enjoy all these benefits now "for free". Next year they won't get these benefits unless somehow that $1 fee is being covered in those endorsed events they play in.

*bites lip*

*turns and walks the other way quickly*

I should probably shoot myself for asking this, since I've BEEN to Nationals, but frankly it mattered so little to me who I played...I was really hoping for Zach or Trent or someone of that caliber first round and instead got some guy I've watched on a stream before....how is seeding currently done? Just by IFPA rank? If so, I'd fully support this change, honestly. It's not like it would be easy to make any 'fair' system based on the strength of the players that someone had to go through in their SCS to get to Nationals.

And meanwhile I'm still waiting for the tournament we had at Nickelrama the wednesday (tuesday? Christ, I've already forgotten what day it was..) before Nationals to even show up anywhere in results....dunno if it's even been submitted but I'm running out of people to badger about it.

I am curious to see how my league handles this. Where I live and my job make it impossible for me to win back any money that goes into this so the 'play better' argument doesn't fly here.

A simple, and far less controversial, implementation of the idea of taking a $1 rake from players to go to the SCS and Nationals may well have been an addition to the current rules regarding fees from the IFPA SCS website

"2. Fees

The entry fee into an IFPA State Championship is $20 per participant. The first $100 raised will be put towards the US Championship, with the remaining $220 (assuming a full field of 16 participants) going into the prize pool for the State Championship itself. This entry fee is not inclusive of any coin drop needed for State Championships run at public venues, or for any hosting fees that a private residence may charge for hosting the event"

Simply add "Any event which wants to be considered SCS ratified, and thus contribute to the standings, will pay a $1 per person verification fee - taken from the players entry fee for a ratified tournament."

That way only events which contribute the $ will be considered for the SCS. Thus far less likely to impact on minor tournaments and newbies which hardly contribute anything in terms of WPPR points towards qualification. It would still allow TDs to run small "fun" tournaments as free to enter, for charity, etc. but still having the draw of the IFPA website and WPPR pts, if they chose to opt out of the SCS.

It would also highlight those tournaments which do contribute to the SCS standings and increase their drawing power. Players would be fully aware that $1 of any entry fee (or sponsorship from operator, bar etc.) would be going into the prize pot further down the road. Maybe even have a running total that each State has in their prize pot to encourage people all through the year - not just near the time of the finals.

Seems like a win/win to me.

Then, the following year, or later IFPA could add the $1 per player per tournament for IFPA ratification. Much more likely to be accepted when people have seen it running smoothly for 12 months, than having it thrust upon them, causing them to worry about their own smaller tournaments.

THAT is exactly what the fee is all about.

The service that everyone enjoys from the IFPA (being world ranked, having a profile they can customize, tracking their progress, etc) has been a free service.

Those TD's and players in those communities that are interested in the draw of the IFPA website and WPPR points have that at their disposal . . . the only difference being now they have to pay for those perks.

I agree, and just by seeing the negative feeling/discussion that this has created it is clear to see how much of a pull people see the WPPR points as. I just think it would have been accepted more readily if the contribution was only required for an event to be SCS registered, not IFPA registered.

When asking a group of people if they would prefer a 'free service' or a 'pay service' . . . it's realllllllllllllllly hard to get massive support that people would rather pay for it.

Without a doubt it would have more accepted if we continued to offer those IFPA WPPR perks for free. There's a large group of players that aren't interested in the SCS, but are very interested in earning WPPR's. That is the group where we are leveraging their interest in the system to generate these fees. If they like these IFPA player perks, they can pay for it. If they don't care enough they can not worry about it anymore.

What we do with those funds is our business, but the focus here is that earning WPPR's, having a profile you can customize, having an archive of all the endorsed events you've ever played in, etc. will now be a paid service that we offer.

your spin is a little late on this one, but I appreciate the effort at a revisionist history while refusing to just say the change control was poorly done

This is totally reasonable, and I think the same change would have been better received had it been introduced as "we're instituting a $1 fee for each player in a tournament because we finally need to charge something to continue offering all the great stuff you love about wpprs" instead of "you have to pay for wpprs now so the ifpa champions can win more money"

That idea seems better and give time to work out issues with local TD's having to collect and remit funds. As well let some legal issues come up with out having lot's of events be drooped as some TD's make take the I want to be safe and wait and see what happens.

Now an $5-$10 year ranking fee paid to IFPA can be used to pay overhead costs / maybe being able to have some kind of paid staff to handle the work load of dealing with saying that your event is ok for IFPA / questons / taking scores / giving more room for TD's to have different formats. Also it can be used to fund payouts / be there so you can have no fee but still have charity events that contribute to the SCS.

225ui (resized).jpg

YES! This is what I meant to say . . . Moderators please delete this thread and I will start a new one with this verbiage

Ultimately this was always the plan, and our delivery of that message was definitely not great. The focus was on where the funds are going, when really that's none of anyone's business but the IFPA's.

So let it be official:

"We're instituting a $1 fee for each player in a tournament because we finally need to charge something to continue offering all the great stuff you love about wpprs"

Josh, I'm with you.. but the presentation here is kind of conflicting.

You introduce the idea as 'funding the SCS events' and downplay the idea of ifpa 'membership' fees
Now you use the idea of ifpa perks as the reason to pay the $1 fee

If you go around promoting the fee as ONLY for SCS.. you've painted yourself into the corner and make yourself the bad guy when you decide you want to use this 'fee' for something else in the future.

It sounds like what you are really doing is "its an IFPA fee, but for now that fee is going fully to funding the SCS events".. but that's not what you are putting on paper (because you don't want IFPA collecting membership fees)

Bite the bullet... call it what it is.

Edit: and it seems like that's what your last post says

Now let's move onto the annual dues vs per event fee discussion

We definitely led with WHY we're generating these fees, and that ended up not being the best presentation.

The plan ALL ALONG was to leverage the interest in all the IFPA perks that players enjoy into moving those perks into a "paid service".

The service is implemented at the tournament director level, NOT the player level, so TD's are welcome to endorse or not endorse their events should their player based be interested in maintaining those IFPA player perks that will no longer be 'free'.

I have no problem biting any bullet and calling this 'anything you want', or 'anything Hilton wants'

We can call it a MEMBERSHIP FEE if that makes it more palatable for people to swallow. We're implementing that fee at the tournament level and utilizing the processes we have in place through our website that TD's already have to jump through to handle this additional step.

annual dues are better and less work for the local TD's also it cut's down on legal issues. But what to do about the people at events who just play and don't really want to pay to be ranked?

There needs to be some kind of middle ground from yearly fees to per per event.

Is this necessary? Your post is simultaneously insulting and unintelligible -- what does "change control" even mean?

I vote for calling it "stupid"

If you are going to call it a membership fee, then just charge each individual member the fee. (I suggest once a year and paid directly to your paypal account)

Now we are all good

This moment forward it will be called the "Hilton thinks it's stupid fee".

The process for which we will be administrating and collecting the fee will not change.

Back to the No Spin Zone for you Hilton

LOFL!!!!!

Can we get that officially updated on the IFPA website please...

hahahahaha

It's all optional though isn't it? You can still run a tournament, non IFPA sanctioned at no cost.

I've been doing monthly tourneys for over four years. Started with 8-12, and now I reach max capacity with ~40 players at each event. I guess I am the "odd man out" in that I ACTUALLY enjoy the "social" part of pinball events. Non-IFPA events also tends to keep the Score Queens away who are generally not much fun during a tournament, especially if they aren't winning.

Just saying....there are options.

100% correct.

It's optional at the TD level. For example the TD decides to run a non-IFPA endorsed event, so there's no fees to collect.

It's also optional at the player level for those TD's that wish to offer that opt-in/out for their events. For example the TD decides to run an IFPA endorsed event, offering the players a chance to not "officially" participate but rather simply play for casual fun. In the results submitted to the IFPA those unofficial players are removed, and there's no $1 fee associated with their participation.

The challenge with annual dues is they miss the mark on the objective of fueling the prize pool... where a 'per event' fee helps scale with growth.

Seems easy enough for me to grasp both goals with just calling it a 'per event' fee that scales with the # of players. I think this satisfies all needs EXCEPT for Josh's concerns about IFPA accounting (which.. I'd say.. tough'en up.. since he outlined the overall goal is to be a paid system anyways).

It's easy to understand as a "per event submission" model

Q: I want this count to towards SCS points, how do I?
A: register and submit the event, all IFPA sanctioned events in the state will count.

Q: how many 'events' is my league/tourney/whatever?
A: easy, if you registered it once, it is one event... one fee per player. Points consequences are handled by the usual WPRR logic.

Q: does my performance count towards SCS/WPRR?
A: easy, if the event is registered, yes!

Q: What is the fee per event?
A: The fee scales with the size of the event based on # of players participating. (gives an option for future extra options to charge for promotion, etc as well)

Q: Who counts?
A: Easy, if the event is registered, all players are eligible

Q: How is the fee funded?
A: That's up to the event organizer. TDs can fund events from their own pocket, player entry fees, sponsorships, whatever.

Q: How is the fee collected?
A: Paid when the event is submitted by the TD to IFPA

Q: What does the fee do?
A: The fee funds the initiatives of the IFPA whose purpose is to promote competitive pinball. Currently those programs include the WPRR ranking system, IFPA website, and an initiative to build prize pools for the SCS/Nationals IFPA events.

Seems concise and well bounded if you outline it this way IMO. This gives TDs the flexibility to fund the fees how they see fit, it gives IFPA what they want in terms of a fee that scales with the amount of play/points people are eligible for, and is easy to articulate. I outlined it above as people not having the option to opt-in/out at an event because I think that is more inline with the objectives AND streamlines things. But that is an item that could be modified easy enough without changing the overall picture (but complicates scoring of entries for events that may have multiple meets).

Flynnibus - new IFPA Director of Public Relations. Welcome aboard!

I 2nd the motion.

On a message board, no less. Great way to stifle conversation outside of the echo chamber!

What about tax issues for the local td's? If one has over $600 is fees to remit then there maybe issues?

What about legal issues with collecting and remitting this fee at the local per event level?

What about the tax / paper work issues with a State TD that has to deal with an over 10K prize pool?

What about charities that may take issues with the NON not for profit IFPA needed to be paided a fee collected at the event level to have an charity event?