You're right, I apologize - I realized that after re-reading. In those cases I think venue sponsorship of a very modest fee is the best way to keep free events WPPR eligible.

Yea, but I don't really know of anyone who dislikes this change specifically because it was revealed on April 1st. My impression is that folks who don't like the change mention the April 1st reveal as another reason why they don't like it. Its like "the change sucks but then you announce it on April 1st and we don't even know if its true or not" .

No worries. There are so many tournament formats (which is great) that the options are too much to keep everything straight at all times. I actually try to do different formats in the various events I run so when players travel they aren't seeing things for the first time. Prior to that, everything was just a linear "everyone play these machines once and Danesi's tournament program will tell us how things are going" style. Now there's a good mix.

You are acting like this is an actual issue in anybody's life that matters.

"Caught with our pants down?" WTF are you talking about? I think we all survived without anybody seeing our naughty bits.

I've continued to follow this thread, and I'm thinking this is really just a small slice of a larger discussion. Josh wants to increase the visibility and prestige of competitive pinball. In essence, he wants to grow the "sport" of pinball, not the hobby of pinball. There is actually quite a big distinction. I find it disappointing that there has been so much negavity directed towards Josh's new model, but I haven't seen many constuctive suggestions on how to accomplish Josh's stated goals in a different way. Well, here's my two cents.

First, can we all agree that competitive pinball is a sport. Perhaps not an athletic sport, but it is still a competitive sport much like pool, bowling, darts, or even golf. The goal of the IFPA is to raise awareness amongst the public, create more prestige for the sport, and to attract more competition. Josh, and the IFPA, have decided to implement their experiment with tourney fees to accomplish this goal. Personally, I agree with his logic. Larger prize pools equal more press, more visibility, and more competition. That's the way it works in any other sport.

Frankly, this is where I diverge with a lot of the folks here who say that it's an unfair attempt by top players to profit from less skilled players. Let's say we accept your interpretation. That's exactly what all sports do. In every competitive sport, the top players reap the financial rewards of their skill in their sport from those lesser players. In golf, for example, players make a segment of their income from sponsorship and endorsements. That's because there are enough people playing golf, buying equipment, etc. that companies find value in those sponsorship and endorsements. Let's face it, though, that ain't happening in the pinball world. There are just too few of us giving too little money to financially weak companies. That's just the way things are right now.

There is another avenue for revenues, though. That's TV. The best way that Pinball as a competitive sport will really grow, would be to get good solid television coverage. I don't just mean news coverage. I mean that, just like bowling, there should be regular professional pinball on TV on Sundays (just as an example). Our problem is reall that Pinball is not a great spectator sport, and our tournament structures don't lend themselves to great viewing. I know a lot of people are trying very hard to stream tournaments, and i commend them for that. Let's face it, though, the production value is generally low, and the formats just don't lend themselves to TV.

Josh, I think you need to talk to the folks at ESPN. They are always looking for good sports/competition content. I'm wondering if IFPA came up with a made for TV tournament format, got real sports production professionals to do broadcasts, or at least do it in that style, whether you'd have a product worthy of selling to a network. Then, you'd do a series of made for TV events, and see if that get's the viewership to help generate some ad revenue.

Perhaps this is just a dream, but it's the only way to break out of the pinball financing pinball paradox we have now.

Yes Josh doesn't need to worry aboot hobby pinball...everyone gluing shit all over any game they can get shows us that angle is just fine.

No, you are never going to get people to agree to that. There have been threads in here that golf isn't a sport with people frothing at the mouth from both sides.

No LED color bombing Can reek havoc on TV equipment

If you make the big show in WSOP you pay your own way or get a sponsorship. Other players are not expected to fork over cash to support other players, aside from those monies won in the course of the competition.

Strange concepts, eh? And I'd say Poker's model would be one where a niche game grew exponentially into a money and prestige rich 'sport.'

And one other thing, folks have offered up alternatives that grow interest in competitive pinball, they just might not appeal to you. Some of them are proven winners that cost no money, yet here we are...being told there is ONE way to achieve the goal.

.

Please reiterate. All ears.

This is where I see us following a similar path that we've done for Big Buck Hunter. We've spent a ton of time and money at Raw Thrills hiring professionals to handle the production value of our stream.

Here's a taste from last year's BBH World Championship:

We have some more interesting "stuff" brewing, and there's interest on the Raw Thrills side to leverage this production company to serve as a group that can handle all "Arcade E-Sports". Imagine this kind of production for pinball streaming, Golden Tee streaming, Foosball, Chexx Hockey, etc.

With the ability to capture all of Arcade E-Sports together yelling in the same direction, all generating content, it becomes even easier to ask for corporate sponsorship. For us to land Jaegermesiter for BBH . . . it would have been way easier to pitch to Jaegermeister sponsoring the Arcade E-Sports universe and capturing BBH, pinball and all these other mediums together.

I swear there's a method to this madness, and I'm excited about going down this path and seeing where the other side lands.

Pinball is too niche for ESPN but it would be smart to go after a network like esportsTV! and try to get a piece of the esports pie where there are hundreds of millions of fans and where fans pack stadiums to watch teams battle it out on videogames for huge prize pools. Here's an article from yesterday on esportsTV!
http://variety.com/2017/digital/news/playstation-vue-esl-esports-tv-channel-1202029013/

And this is a perfect example of why I had you on ignore for a very long time. What a stupid thing to say. Do you take absolutely everything as literal? Have you ever heard of figurative terms of speech?

I can change that. Pics to follow.

See that's where I can't really agree with you. Poker is, Absofuckinglulty, the worst possible thing you could watch; Much worse than pinball. Now were I agree with you is what made it watchable, was a shit ton of monies involved; that was the whole point of it.

EDIT: And just think of the cultural impact poker had. All of a sdduen people where showing up to your local poker tables, acting like Hold'em was the only card game you can play for monies. Jesus we had to shut people out becasue they started coming over and playing with sunglasses on and trinkets over their cards....Dude we're playing with $20 stacks in someone's backyard at midnight....

...Anyway sorry I was having flashbacks. Just think if Pinball got big like that and then, instead of assholes with sunglasses and trinkets, people came over saying "I can't even see with all these LEDs. Why are their dolls all over this machine? Wow that POS cost $500?!?"

Man I may have to start backing this whole endeavor.

Whysnow is a very high level player also #259 / 48,977. He stands to benefit financially from the increased prize pools as well. But still, he thinks it will hurt pinball in Wisconsin. Not to mention the legal implications.

He can be pretty strident and opinionated, but he's a really good guy and a great player.

I, for one, wish he wouldn't insist upon fragmenting the system by creating the WIPPR rebellion or whatever. The IFPA isn't perfect, and this idea has flaws, but I think it is still our best option.

high ranking and good are not directly related. someone that plays a ton of events that racks up points, doesn't directly reflect how good of a player they are. Not saying he's not a good player, but on the national level playing against the A players, we really don't stand a chance.

Please put me back on ignore.

I wouldn;t say that

Certain(t)ly wouldn't say that

Pinball in Wisconsin...never hear anything aboot it.

Not 100% correlated, but definitely positively correlated. Plus, I've played with him and can attest he can play.

Did Bowen Kerins really have his name pulled off the rankings over this change?

Hilton is a good player. Sure he isn't Elwin or Zach or Bowen or etc but then again most of us aren't at their level.

Nothing stopping you from having 'just for fun' events still.. and your demographics apparently won't change a bit.

Not sure what value anyone puts in a 'ranking' system where the players have no interest (because money sucks) in cross pollenating with the bigger audience.

Maybe you should lobby Bowen and Kevin to bring back PARS. If you all just want a player ranking system.. and not care about competitive pinball as the bigger stage.. then just keep doing what you are doing without the IFPA.

dollar games are like a poker night in your house but this is like some 3rd party take there own rake and the points in that ranking system are setup that you can win 12 poker night and pay that rake 12 times vs just going to 1 big event paying 1 rake and making more points for losing big time then you did with you wining all of your poker nights.

Also the law may be ok with an local night with 100% pay out that night. but not so much an big outside prize pool.

dollar games are like a poker night in your house but this is like some 3rd party take there own rake and the points in that ranking system are setup that you can win 12 poker night and pay that rake 12 times vs just going to 1 big event paying 1 rake and making more points for losing big time then you did with you wining all of your poker nights.

Also the law may be ok with an local night with 100% pay out that night. but not so much an big outside prize pool.

League of Legends is team based. IFPA pinball is not TEAM sports seems to be more prestigious

I agree with you.. but the BBH video kind of fell flat for me. The event sure looked more like a Red Bull promo event than a competitive 'e-sports' event. The camera swinging over the massive crowd of about 60 ppl didn't help establish the credibility of 'impact'.

Gotta start somewhere.. and I agree with buy-ins funding the activities. But please, less Bar drink promo girls and more competition.

That was the sizzle reel created post-event with the intention of creating that kind of vibe.

Here's a link to the actual stream from the 2015 championship (5 hours+ like a normal pinball tournament):

We're 9 years in and still just getting started . . .

Gladly.

If bigger prize pools means the IFPA can hire cute sideline reporters and beer girls than I'm a fan That looks like way more fun than any pinball tournament I've been to! Confetti and pyrotechnics too.

The girl at 5:01 may have been having too much fun. lol..

This highly depends on those tournaments continue to submit results.

I play every month in a league in Chicago, but we only submit results once for year. That's 1/12th of the fee of the exact league that chooses to report results monthly.

There's nothing stopping these weekly events from morphing into a league that submit results monthly, quarterly, semi-annual or annually. If a weekly turns into something that submits annually and a player actually shows up for all 52 weeks, they end up paying less than $.02 per time they play as the endorsement fee.

and dont get squat for points for playing in 52 league nights

That really depends on the scope of the league (number and quality of players).

The Seattle Pinball League submits once per year:

https://www.ifpapinball.com/tournaments/view.php?t=16606

Raymond Davidson earned 49.30 WPPR points for finishing 1st for that season. I have no idea how many times they actually got together and played but he earned far more points than "squat".

Let's not cherry pick the argument..

Is the problem the amount?
or
Is the problem a fee is being collected?

People seem to float back and forth without articulating one or the other fully.

If the problem is $1 'more' - then I'd really say.. you are undervaluing your own event. Pinholics here runs and charges $20 for a one day event. People drive more than 250 miles to come and play. The event pulls usually 40+ players from 8+ states. No one scrutinizes the organizer over how each penny is spent. No one scoffs at the entry fee because they don't feel they can win. They all pay and travel because THEY HAVE A GOOD TIME and some people like the competition it draws out. But the people who don't win, STILL COME OUT AND PAY WILLINGLY.

This is my dollar game example. People know they likely aren't going to get a payoff from their dollar... they don't care.

If the problem is how the fee is used.. (the weak funding the strong, etc).. I think this is people overthinking things. If organizers are asking for a huge commitment.. then I think this argument gets stronger. The more you put out, the more concern you have about how its used and your return for it.

If your main focus is $5 tournaments of walk up players.. why focus on IFPA? Do you think $5 tournaments is going to keep your players engaged in the long term too?

Do your noob players always scrutinize your tournament organizer on the math behind their prize pools? Do they challenge the guy on his balance sheet?

I think that's a very legitimate question and discussion. But I think that is separate from the woes about $1 per event, per player registration fees, or whatever. I think Josh has several examples and a strategy they are working on. Yes, part of their plan is funding this through the players.. but you can agree or disagree on the theory of 'do the prize pools matter' on the relevance of promotion without bogging yourself down on the 'player funded' question.

What baffles me is why people are so against 'funding' IFPA initiatives. If you want everything to be retained within your event/town/whatever.. keep it local. What do you see as the IFPA sanctioning benefiting you if you don't care beyond your local scope, don't focus on competition, or look to move beyond the simple local event?

No one says IFPA is the only way to do things.. look at this page. http://pinholicsanonymous.com/regional-calendar/ Kevin wanted to do more to promote local focused activity feeds, promotion, etc.. so he's building his own 'birds of a feather' grouping.

Alternative Solution

Objective 1: Increase prestige of competitive pinball events and drive overall interest in the game.

Objective 2: Significantly increase pot/ purse/ payout for state and national events.

Objective 3: Accomplish 1 and 2 while also providing a fun and competitive environment, regardless of skill level

Objective 4: Give back to the contributors to Objectives 1 and 2

What if IFPA were to sponsor Prestige Series Tournaments, or PSX , for short. IFPA would designate a 9 day window in each quarter of the year in which tournament hosts could declare, " This is our PSX for Quarter 1, and it will be on Feb 16th." Each player pays $10 to enter the PSX, with full disclosure that $5 is for building the purses for State and National games as IFPA prescribes. That would be the only purpose for the first $5 and then the remainder would fund the local pot, as usual.

The caveat: IFPA offers double points for the Prestige Series Tournaments, with a player being eligible for one double shot per quarter of the year. Players can play all of the events they wish, but only one declared result for each player would be eligible for the bonus. Only designated events within the prescribed window each quarter will qualify their players for the bonus. I considered making players play in their own states, but that would be a mess, too, for various reasons. Players would declare before an event starts that this is their PSX event for the quarter and TDs would turn it in, so as to eliminate players from using their best result in the 9 day window, especially in areas where multiple tournaments abound.

Wins:
1) IFPA increases funds for State and National events
2) Local interest grows as well, with the increased availability of points
3) Players still get to play for their dollars, while also 'knowingly' contribute to the growth of pinball at a bigger stage
4) Venues currently hosting tourneys would not be asked to sponsor events or change their operating margins whatsoever, with the added prospect of increased interest and play.
5) simplifies administration of fees for TDs, in that it would be one shot per quarter instead of a constant accumulation.

Risks:
1) Too difficult to administer 1 PSX event per quarter. I don't know, that's why I am scattershooting this idea out there
2) Elite players will have a big event and double up an already huge points value for their tournament. Maybe so, but this already happens sometimes. Points are out there to be earned, and these are for the growth of pinball.
3) JNX has dumb ideas and needs to stick to watching Matlock reruns...

Fair enough, like I said we haven't met so for all I know you are a very laid back in person. Either way I wasn't attempting to insult you (while telling you not to insult someone else), I tend to enjoy people that get fired up about things, even if they aren't masters of objectivity. At the very least they're more fun to argue with.

I was.. we had PAPA doing things.. including launching a ranking system based on head to head results called PARS.. which was a Bowen effort driven from the likes of Chess and Tennis ranking systems I believe. In a relatively similar time era, the Sharpe family resurrected the IFPA brand from the Eipstein/Sharpe graveyard and started promoting. At the time, not only did we have separate ranking systems 'competing', we also had different rulesets. IFPA had their ideas... PAPA/Kevin had their own ideas on how things should be. Ultimately overtime the PARS system kind of faded under its own struggles to find adoption, and IFPA/PAPA got together and unified the rules commonly used. PAPA does their thing, but they've found a happy medium with IFPA in that the world does not look at it like the North/South civil war anymore

IFPA has frequently gotten scrutiny because of the close association with 'industry' due to people's backgrounds.. but honestly I think it's been an asset. They've attacked this as a more than just a hobby and their background and connections have lead to many corporate relationships that previous people have not been able to crack (or would not focus on). Nothing is perfect, but I think history has proven that the WPRR system has had a significant and positive impact on generating interest in events.

Clearly Josh and others continue to strive to refine the WPRR system to make it better and to combat gaming the system. Some have distanced themselves from it.. but like everything with the IFPA, you are free to take advantage of it where you like, and ignore it where you like. I really don't see that changing here with these recent changes.

oops

Good news is.. even tho we have NASCAR doing all those things... you can still goto your local track and just race and watch others race, if that's what you want.

As is the same with most sports.. this is not an 'all or nothing' proposition.

Who says 'don't play'? I think the response is "If you don't care about IFPA activities, why are you associating with the IFPA?" - Keep doing what you are doing and focus on what you find important. If the IFPA doesn't align with that, don't align with the IFPA.

I find it analogous to Pinside donations. Many people donate to Pinside not because they feel the amount is an honorable trade in value for what they consume.. but because they want to advance the larger need.

Are people that really set against supporting a larger pinball initiative that is beyond themselves?

Funny... many of us crowd sourced PAPA.tv for this very reason. The players and community all contributed to fund an effort that largely will never be in their location or town.. so that a remote entity could do these things and promote Pinball at large, so we could all benefit.

I know I didn't contribute based on considering 'how much of PAPA.tv's resources will come to my town' before deciding to contribute.

I LOL'd

The dollar games example was to illustrate that for trivial amounts of money... people are usually pretty lax about 'what their return is'... because people are arguing like the IFPA is there to steal their livelihood.

The analogy was not about where the money goes... it's about 'Do I see a return for this money?'. And when it's a $1... it doesn't take a ton of entertainment to offset that 'investment'.

That's a perfectly legitimate point to investigate. Unfortunately it's going to vary locale by locale.. and frankly I think topics like that are far more reason that the IFPA should address it with 'membership fees' rather than per event fees (that somehow can get rolled together.. that one doesn't make sense to me).

That's cheap. A typical pump and dump tournament at $10 for 3 plays can easily take $100+ from each player for qualifying. Whether its a free tournament or a pump and dump, its still just an effin dollar!! Either accept it or play without IFPA points. If only the elite players benefit anyway, why get so pumped up about getting off the train? You are still playing organized tournaments, just without IFPA points. Obviously the system means a lot if people are pitching such a hissy fit. No way this level of reaction from something that isn't actually worth a dollar.

Well I would never put a pump and dump event into a conversation about casual or new players. Heck, many established players won't even be in the discussion

Haha, true. On the other hand, every pump and dump I have ever seen has at least six people play $10 or $20 just to be able to say they played in a tournament and/or try it out. Also, some shows give a free $10 entry with the price of admission just to stimulate interest in the tournament.

Big Buck Hunter is being brought up a lot.

The problem is that BBH is not pinball. BBH is one single game that is very easy to understand for people who don't actually play the game. You shoot some animals, and you don't shoot others.

Pinball on the other hand, is not just one single game. There are literally 1000's of different games. All with different and complicated rules, and with different strategies. Very difficult for a non-player to watch a game of pinball and understand fully what the player's objectives are and why.

I don't think this plan will work to expand the competitive scene of pinball like it may have worked with BBH.

Yea, I'm going to do the exact same when I host. Won't offer the opt out, too difficult to even explain to a totally new person. The entry fee is the fee, the winner will take less in prize money.

You'd be idiotic to try to explain it to a new player.

They're keen to play. Take their money and point them in the direction of a machine.

rd

No offense, but just because someone is new to pinball doesn't mean they are new to 2nd grade math.

I'm really digging the "We won't tell them anything" approach. Did not realize our TD was such a rarity, as well as the resident " rule checker" members who are anal as hell about double checking every little detail.

I guess you have players so excited to see Aerosmith or Dialed-In that their wallet just flies open...