Why shouldn't they supply the majority of their own prize pool?

but it needs to be in a way the gives a boost to smaller events vs making them court for even less.

I think it makes a lot of sense. Why should they get a carry from the casuals that never plan to win the big pot of money at the end. The pot of money should come from other elite players who all want to win the money...not from someone who is having their first tournament experience.

I think the idea will be something along the line of 20 total events will count for your annual state championship ranking (same as what IFPA currently does for your national ranking).

The idea is that you cant just play your way into an end of year championship, but rather need to play well.

The constraints to think about is that the # of events will vary based on state activity. I personally think it is a good way to help balance the activity of different regions in a state but at the same time you need to be cautious to not make it so people run or attend fewer events.

In WI we have over 60 events each year so your top 20 events seems to be a reasonable metric to use. I personally think it may also be beneficiall to change leagues to be a 1 time per year reporting rather than a multiple 'season' reposting each year. Basically it would help to level the value of any league.

I still dont understand the push back form top players to just pay in a $200 entry fee for your Sate champtionship position. Earn your spot through points and pay your own entry fee.

Because we have for 20+ years, and the amounts will only get so high.
By collecting it from ALL endorsed events, you make those events gain respect, you add to the SCS pool, you add to the Nationals Big $$ pool, and newer players can feel a little more of a "pro" experience while playing an endorsed event.
All while they are helping the sport grow.

so you are feeling entitled to others paying in for your prize pool because you have been playing pinball for 20 years... and want a biugger prize pool, but are unwilling to just up the ante form your own pocket???!!! WTH! glad that is cleared up.

Sorry but I would love to see you explain this in person to new players as a tournament for their first or second time playing.

Casual person >>"Hey DNO, why do we pay and extra buck for each event now"

DNO >>"Because I have been playing pinball for 20 years and you should be paying in so I have a shot at a bigger prize pool at the SCS"

Casual person >> "what is the SCS? can I play?"

DNO >> " Well the chance is slim to none, but sure" "It is usually an event where the top 25-30 player in each state duke it out for 16 total spots, but with years of practice and competition you may eventually be good enough and play enough to earn a spot"

Casual person >>" so what happens if I dont want to pay the extra buck?" "how many events do I need to play in currently to feasibly earn a spot"

DNO >> "then you dont get to play in these events and dont get to be a WPPR ranked person?" "realistically you are going to need to play in 25 or more events ina year; alternatively you could just be naturally talented and win a few reall big events (but good luck with that as it rarely happens)"

Casual person >> " thanks but no thanks" leaves and never returns to play competitive pinball again

Casual person to friends >> " You would not believe it... They wanted me to pay and extra buck everything I can to an event just so they could get a prize pool of 5k at the end of the year, but only the top 16 players in the state get to attend" "Yeah, I had fun playing pinball, but the ultra competitive vibe and paying extra money was a total turn off"

So does the SCS... unless you are clinging to the 'funding the big dogs' argument you keep bringing up... which is really a whine about paying for 'no perceived value to yourself'.

Because the expectation that everything stays and returns to me IS A FALLACY. When I pay coin drop... that money goes to the location to do whatever they want with... who whines about what the owner does with his take?

My league dues? They support an organization that isn't just my local league. We've been doing that for 25 years... and GASP... the sky didn't fall! I've been paying entry fees at major events for decades, and never won.

In fact, I've paid for entries to events with the sole intention of 'funding the larger effort' with zero expectation of return because I know the money going in, is a necessary portion of making this all work. We don't have angels funding everything like Kevin Martin everywhere (tho.. the papa circuit funding is cool).

Getting the prize pools up to elevate the prominence of the game is part of strategy. If you don't like that portion of competitive pinball, then don't feel obligated to make your events part of that. 99.9% of players would never know the difference if your 'adminstrative costs' included sending a portion of your dues/fees went to the IFPA.

Our biggest leagues with the most loyal following are NOT COMPETITIVE LEAGUES. And know what... the players all pay their dues and don't fuss that the 'better players' benefit more than the casual players in terms of cash payouts.

You've made this the 'its all about hilton' thread yet again... because you run around like the rest of the world is exactly like you and you can't see past your own nose. So you have special circumstances in WI because of your legal setup... ok, so let's talk about WI in its own case.. not act like we are a community of 3000 hiltons.

Here's how I see this playing out locally.

Entry fee for our monthly tournament is $5.

Casual player decides to join and pay $5.

Casual player doesn't win the tournament and isn't impacted by any of the $1 nonsense.

Winner of the event (most likely Zach) pays the $1 fee on everyone's behalf off of his winnings.

Casual player comes back the following month because they had FUN . . . pays another $5 for the entry fee. Rinse/repeat.

These hypothetical conversations about an extra dollar being paid doesn't exist if there isn't an extra $1 being paid.

(Yes I recognize free events will have an issue like this . . . let me try this out for size)

Me - Welcome to our lovely tournament, so glad you're interested in playing. Now we have no entry fee and you are welcome to dip your toe in the water and give it a shot, OR for $1 you're able to be recognized by the IFPA for your sanctioned participation in the event officially. By doing that you'll be listed in the official world ranking of pinball players, have a personal profile created that you can update, and have a place where all your results are archived for any events you choose to participate as a sanctioned IFPA player.

Casual Player - Sounds interesting . . . I'll check out the website later but for now I would like to just play for free.

Me - Sounds GREAT, no pressure at all on participating "officially" or "unofficially". Hope you have a good time. Any questions you have about the IFPA, game questions, etc, don't hesitate to ask.

Casual Player to friends - This Josh Sharpe guy is sooooo nice. I felt so welcomed at this event. You guys should all go and check it out. I had such a great time playing pinball, meeting some new great people.

Yeah right. More like:

Casual player: "F you dbag! Why should I pay so you elites can profit? You are KILLING PINBALL!"

Because it's a prize pool... not gambling.

I can't believe you all are arguing "players who are more likely to win, should pay more than another player". WTF, are you assigning odds to players when they register now?

And who is going to buy in when their level of reward declines the better you do??

If you want different levels of risk/buyin... you have different levels of events.

More Big Buck Hunter progress . . .

http://www.crossroadstoday.com/story/35094923/twitch-teams-up-with-raw-thrills-and-big-buck-hunter-on-esports-mini-documentary-ironsights

The documentary is actually available to watch here:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/134051267

I'm confused, I thought it was all or nothing for a given event. In other words, how do you track results if you have a league with 16 people and only 2 of them are interested in earning points?

I still don't get why some people can't just argue and debate the issues without turning their post into a personal attack. Heck, I'm afraid to post half the thoughts I have about this topic because I believe that one or two members will attack my motives and make it sound like I'm selfish and entitled. For the record I've played 3 official events and have no elitism in my body but I fully support IFPA at this point. Even more so than I originally did because of some nasty comments on here. Go figure.

Wait... so you mean that the model the IFPA is proposing has already worked elsewhere in a competitive arcade gaming community? Could this forced growth in BBH State and National prize pools have possibly led to the growth in the popularity of the game, growth in the number of BBH players around the country that are made up of now-larger pockets of people in their local communities, growth in people willing to try playing the game, and growth in the amount of coin drop for BBH operators/locations?

TD's are welcome to make this an opt-in/opt-out thing.

If 16 people play and only 2 of them are interested in earning points, the fee for endorsement of that event is $2. Only those 2 players will be submitted into the results sent to IFPA. All 16 people still get to play for FUN (which is the most important).

You can have your cake and eat it too if the TD is willing and able to handle those logistics.

--Reality Distortion Field off--

Reality everywhere else...

Player: hey, what's all this commotion about?
TD: Hey, I'm Steve. We're actually running a pinball tournament tonight. Do you play?
Player: Yeah, I like pinball... but I've never entered a tournament. What's the story? How do I enter?
TD: It's easy, you put down your name and email, pay a $10 entry fee and you pay for each of your games. The registration also lets you track your history at a site called the IFPA and establish a world wide ranking. We play in a head to head format, the guy with the iPad will tell you who you are to play. It's a bracket to the final four. Top four people get cash prizes
Player: Sounds cool... what's the $10 for? I still pay to play?
TD: Yeah, the $10 funds the event and prize pool. We still pay to play because it's a bar and the location still needs to get their cut.
Player: Ok, makes sense. IFp what?
TD: IFPA, it's a global org setup to help promote competitive pinball ran by some key industry people. They have a ranking system based on your play, and organize events like the State Championships and National Championships
Player: Sweet... state championships? What's that?
TD: Each year, we tally up points for all the IFPA events you participate in our state. Top 16 point getters are invited to a tournament to declare the state champ, and the winner is invited to goto Nationals
Player: Sweet.. what do you win?
TD: State Champ gets a cash prize and invite to Nationals. Win Nationals and you win a new stern pinball. Others get cash prizes of like 1500 bucks or so
Player: Sweet... where do the prizes come from?
TD: Entry fees and sponsors
Player: Awesome, I've never competed before but this sounds cool.
TD: Yeah, no worries, the other players are usually very supportive of helping new guys.. let me introduce you to...

Worked is past tense . . . I prefer "Continues to work"

posted 5 days ago

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/134051267

Is IFPA providing a chart for % payout from the SCS? I don't think there should be an option for that to vary from state to state.

You had me until here...

haha Yeah, its only drama if you make it drama for your players. WI has their own corner case because they can't decide if they want to be prize pools and organized events or just be casual play.. and think $1-$5 is a deal breaker.

It's like the guys who think 'no one will ever pay $5 for that' .. meanwhile the next guy starts up, charges $19.95 and sells millions of units.

Don't be shy..

Just realize some people have a long history of making the party all about themselves and reactions are related to that.

Thanks. And as for the realization you're hoping me to gain... trust me, I caught on to that REAL QUICKLY!!

So if I go play in some huge poker tournament that I have no chance of winning, I should not be expected to buy in until I make the final table and at that point my buy-in will be 200 times what it would have been? No seriously though the whole idea of competition is to try to win. Eric Stone came from nowhere and played in every tournament that I was in during 2016; even the Podunk ones. He ended up winning the SCS and beat Zach in the final round. The how many of the state champs who took time off work and flew out for the finals won enough to even cover their travel expenses? Does it seem fair to make them pay an additional $200 each to pump up the pot? Sorry, that makes zero sense. What makes more sense is the pay a tiny fee for all sanctioned tournament plays, so that the winners get rewards that are commensurate with being a National Champion of a sport with thousands of competitors.

An yes, people like seeing their name on the website and being tracked and ranked. That is a big part of why there are so many tournaments and players compared to five years ago. Up until now we were all getting something for nothing and meanwhile the people behind the scenes have been busting their asses keeping the rankings up to date. Time to pony up or get out. If playing in a casual tournament is the goal then do that and there is no need to get IFPA sanctioned and no need to pay - especially if you think no one has a chance to even win the state. If you want to play with the big boys, then pony up the $1 and be happy someone is doing all the behind the scenes work to keep this system afloat.

At that point.. why not just go all the way and say 'You can only win the same percentage your state contributed..'. The prize pool for nationals is coming from ALL players.. not 'all states'.

People are too focused on these 'equal representation' bits. The states provide an easy to understand tiered event.. and of course tie into people's experience and can relate to regional champs. You have to qualify competitors in some way.. the state champs provides a fun format to do so that is easy to relate to.

If you want something different... pursue the PAPA circuit.

Yes . . . here will be the official breakdown of every State Championship:

1st place - 30% of the funds
2nd place - 18% of the funds
3rd place - 12% of the funds
4th place - 8% of the funds
5th through 8th place - 4% of the funds (each)
9th through 16th place - 2% of the funds (each)

There will be absolutely no option for State Reps to do anything but this structure.

But how do the IFPA rankings work for those 2 players then?
Say out of 16 people 2 pay- let's call them player A and B.

Player A finishes 3rd, and player B finishes 9th-
Will player A and B get points for 3rd and 9th or for finishing 1st & 2nd (for IFPA ranking purposes)

Interesting. I'm in the "will never see my $1 again" camp and could really care less about points, but I do know there are people in the local leagues on both sides of this. Are the non-payers tracked but hidden? Thinking about the chess analogy, I don't know how a relative strength rating system could work if (for example) only one player in the tournament has any tracked data. But these details aside, if the magic points formula can handle these situations, then I suppose that those who are spending the $1 can calculate their championship victory ROI before plunking it down.

Player A will get points for finishing in 1st place, Player B will get points for finishing in 2nd place. Those will be the only two players listed in the standings if you pulled up the results on the IFPA wesbite.

No . . . the non-payers wouldn't exist for the "officially sanctioned" results. They are only tracked if they are officially included as a sanctioned player.

The flexibility for TD's that want to do this allow those casual players the chance to take the system into their own hands. Maybe they allow themselves to play as a sanctioned player once a month, while only playing casually the other 3 weeks of the month.

Or if they find themselves getting better during the year, perhaps they start participating officially at some point in time when they think they have a shot to compete for a spot in the State Championship.

Cool, thanks. Anything is better than nothing, but it looks like I'll have to improve on my past results a little bit. 16th in 2015 and 9th in 2016. Shooting for 8th or better now, assuming I even make it this year. Phoenix has exploded this year and Tucson is not seeing growth at the same pace. It's there, just not nearly as much as up north.

Reality as I have seen it at casual monthly events (which tend to be the stepping stone for getting into bigger events)

Player: hey, what's all this commotion about?
TD: Hey, I'm Steve. We're actually running a pinball tournament tonight. Do you play?
Player: Yeah, I like pinball... but I've never entered a tournament. What's the story? How do I enter?
TD: It's easy, you put down your name and email, pay a $10 entry fee and you pay for each of your games. The registration also lets you track your history at a site called the IFPA and establish a world wide ranking. We play in a head to head format, the guy with the iPad will tell you who you are to play. It's a bracket to the final four. Top four people get cash prizes

Player: $10 to play plus a coin drop. No thanks. I'm not interested.

That is as far as the conversation ever goes IME when you are charging money to play in the tourney on top of the coin drop.

And they will only get the points for a two player tournament, right? Which is practically nothing.

Yes. Unless you make the winners pay the fee or if it's a free tourney, TD pays. That's what I plan to do.

This thread is now at this stage.

giphy.gif

love that gif!

Does that take way from the Legitimacy of the tournament and the rankings as a whole?

Right

Which amounts to the winner paying for additional WPPR points....

yes

I too have been surprised that's it's been "free" to be a part of the IFPA universe for this long. I used to play tennis and had to join the ATA in order to play in any ATA sanctioned tournament. $20 a year or so, not much but as Lucky Day said in The Three Amigos

TvNxIVkzcj9n2.gif

I still don't understand why the IFPA can't just institute an admin fee. Seems like the easiest way to go. I don't think anyone would have a problem forking over a few bucks each year if they wanted to be included in the rankings. Josh can do whatever he wants with that dough... add it to prize pools, donate it to some cause, buy a gold grill, spend it on hookers and blow.... Nobody gives a shit, as long as he continues to provide this service.

I could be wrong, but i thought I read him say he didn't want to do that because of tax liability on his end.

So one other question, let's say a slightly above average player has a lucky streak and wins a tournament or league. Could he opt to pay the $1 on behalf of all the losers after the fact to increase his points? Or taken a step further, what if a TD allowed players to decide after the league/tournament occurs whether to opt in or not (in other words, if you have an off night, simply opt out for that event)?

Not after the fact. You can't win and then decide to pay because you did well or decide not to after having an off night.

What John said is correct . . . you can't decide AFTER the fact.

I equate it to any normal tournament. You don't play your qualifying game and then decide afterwards if you want to pay for the entry to stand. You pay your entry to play the game, and then you earn the right to keep the score of the game you just played.

So instead make it a tax liability for each TD? Yeah that makes sense.

Instead of having one person deal with it now you have hundreds that have to deal with it. Way to make TD's want to continue to help the ifpa grow.

BINGO!!! That's all we needed to hear. If that's the case then all is good. Thank you for putting that out there!!!

How are the players going to feel when they pay for points but don't get crap for points if only 4 people out of 20 decide to pay. It's going to just create a bunch of saltiness between the people that care about points and those that don't.

This is the only weird part for me. I can offer to pay for noncompetitive players so they count for IFPA points, but have to gamble paying for them before actually winning? I fall into the category of decent competitive players but rarely the top finisher at the local bar. A first or second place finish would be decent points for me that I'd want to maximize, but wouldn't want to pay for everyone who didn't unless I'm actually placing.

Honestly I hope my local TD just cuts the prize pool by $1/head or raises the entry fee by $1/head (if those are allowed) just so I don't have to think about it.

TDs can also seek sponsorship, and their players don't even have to worry about this. Which is exactly what I plan to do...