I have to say that it seems really odd to give double dipping and award points just because a portion of the league is in that state. Even stranger since a league does not require you to play in every event. This is counter intuitive to building competitive pinball events in your own state if each year people that have not even set foot in your home state are getting points.

Playing devils advocate... If I set up an intertstate league where I travelled to various states and hosted league at friends houses, then every person from each state would be allowed to get points in every single state for SCS purposes?

I could start and interstate league which has events in WI, IL, IN, MI, MN, IA, CO, and PA just with the help of a few buddies. I could also leverage a few route locations to add some states.

easy. Finals and direct play will be in WI so everyone else will need to travel to my house for a big party next Dec. I will seed based on total accumulated points for the year. Dont show up and you take a loss. At least 10% will show up to fullfill need of direct play/ playoff draw down.

Aside from that each month will feature heads up direct play so that component is already satidfied.

It would basically be a traveling super league. By the end of the year there would be a couple hundred players in the overall league to boost the base value. Top winners would qualify for multiple states if we picked the right states to play in

Basically just pointing out that double dipping is flawed in this case.

lol. I have no desire to do it, but just pointing out that if EVEN 1 person were to qualify for a state they never physically stepped foot in then the ruling is flawed.

Picking states like Alabama, Indiana, Kansas, Lousiana, etc... and you could fill a decent portion of the SCS field with a traveling league.

I would pick option D

League automatically counts towards the SCS with the majority of events in that state. If no clear majority then director has to select a single state.

Double dipping just seems silly. Count them once in a single state. It is not perfect but is better than double dipping.

On topic.

I will be the TD for WI SCS this year. The main TDs in the state have worked out a system where the SCS rotates among the 3 main areas of the state that commonly host events, assuming there is a suitable location that can host and is willing to do so. 1st year was Milwaukee, 2nd year was Appleton, and this year is the Capital, Madison. Hopefully the rotation will continue as so far it has been very nice.

Madison Pinball has offered to host the event at Schwoegler's in Madison. We are moving 12 games to a back room and really excited to be hosting this year. Shuold be a fun event and I am more excited to be hosting that playing in it. I would love if we could find someone to stream or at minimum have a camera set up over a few games and linked to a tv for spectators. Being a public location it provides the opportunity to really hype us the SCS and we are hoping some other competitive players that were unable to make the cut will come over to watch and have some fun.

We are also discussing the possibility of asking all the top 16 to chip in so we can get proper trophies for all players, 1 through 16. General feeling is that it is quite the accomplishment just to make it into the WI SCS so that deserves some fun recognition for all players.

We are discussing bringing in a few special games for the SCS beyond the 12 currently at the location (would be good to increase the diversity of the line up a bit and have some safety net if games go down).

It was all just devils advocate for fun. I have no desire to create a traveling league and would honestly think it pretty cheap if someone did so just to get SCS points in a different state.

I wish you guys were also. Not a bunch of scrubs in WI FYI.

Josh >> do you have a premade bracket for the consolation that you can provide?

My assumption was round 1 losers continue in the prearranged quadrant and cant do better than 9th?

1/16 loser vs. 8/9 loser, 2/15 loser vs. 7/10 loser
3/14 loser vs. 6/11 loser, 4/13 loser vs. 5/12 loser

Winners from those pairs would be 9-12 next round
Losers from those pairs would be 13-16 next round

actually, is there a whole bracket (both winners and losers) already drawn up? Would save me the time of drawing it up.

Guessing no reseed. You just follow the losers bracket through like the winners bracket. Lose in round 1 and you will be somewhere in 9-16. First loss in round 2 and you will be somewhere in 5-8. Second loss in round 2 and you will be 13-16.

Basically follow it out just as the winners bracket does. It is not double elimination, just ensures all players will play in 4 total rounds. Stay in winners and it is first to 4 wins. Lose and then only first to 2 wins. Should not add much if any amount of time. I would like to see a "no waiting" rule for losers bracket.

He is saying both winners and losers braket can wait for any game they want. Hypothetically every single match up could wait and play the exact same games in the exact same order and it will take 3 days to play the event, lol.

For WI we will not be reseeding. You lose in round one and the best you can do is 9th. Lose all 4 rounds and you will be 16th. Win all 4 rounds and you will be first. Greater emphasis on winning earlier rounds obviously if you are wanting to finish higher.

After saying this... I suppose it would be easy to group the nodes back together after round 2???

Win round 1 and lose round 2 could be reshuffled with the losers of round 1 that win round 2.

This may be a more fair way to determine 5-12 positions?

I need to sit down and draw things out. I am a visual learner with these things. Whatever i come up with will be clearly written out before we start.

Ok, so definately like i was first thinking. Greater emphasis on winning first round and win/loss record really means nothing.

For example... L W W W and you will be 9th

W L L L and you will be 8th

Correct?

any chance we can buy a smaller version of the top part? actually 15 more of the smaller versions...

Would be cool to make up similar but smaller trophies for 2-15 in the state.

that would be great! not sure what I can some up with but I will try. Would be cool to have something similar in style to the 1st place trophy for the other folks.

SCS_Bracket.jpg

also, there is the bracket I just made up.

Small but you get the point

sorry. just trying to help. It is really not all that complicated and thought some may like the bracket. It fits on a single sheet and even you can figure it out

Technically, the way I drew it up is correct.

It is not merely 3 separate brackets. As you W or L you filter out to your final position. L in first round and you will finish 9-16. W then L second round and you will finish 5-8

I dont think it will be too long.

If people insist on waiting for every single game then it could, but most people are very reasonable about game selection and not going to all wait on a single game for a super long time. Winner bracket is best of 7, but loser is only best of 3.

Set tilts tight, open the outlanes (or remove them), ball save off, and EBs obviously off, and it should move along as a reasonable pace. As a TD you should have a decent amount of control of how tough the games are.

We should have 12-15 games to choose from so hopefully that helps. If a place only has 7 games then the forced loser bracket could be rough for timing/delays.

States like IL are a whole different story when you have multiple top 10 players duking it out and some of them like to pause for 2min between each flip.

well just one that I know of that is extremely patient in his play style. He is also accurate and is impressive to watch play, but it gets boring to watch him sometimes.

(he also has a knack for clogging toilets but that is a whole nother story)

LOTR, TSPP, ST, FG, Shrek, BK2K and the right sling out of commision...

lol

altering a game or the environment changes the skillset required to play.

simple thing like tight tilts means a player needs to focus on making accurate shots and remaining in control.
loose tilts and people will need to focus on nudging.

reality is that any and every game can be altered to dramatically change the skillset required.

This does open up the larger questions regarding what is the 'best' game set up for each particular game you are playing on. I know that given the forced consolation bracket format, I will be making games slightly tougher than they normally are with an eye on ball time and leveling ball/game time among the line up. Typically long playing games like KISS and ST (most Sterns) will have slings made more sensitive and outlanes opened as well as tilts made tighter. You dont want to go overboard, but you are also working with a player base that is the best in the state s adjusting games as appropriate is a good idea unless you want to be still playing at 4am the following day.

Turning each game on tournament settings and EBs off will obviously also help.

curious what would be the reason to reseed vs not reseed?

My thought was if you lose, you just continue down the pre arranged pod similar to if you win?

OK. Since we are hopefully doing trophies all the way to 16 then I am thinking most will play it out. We are also running an event immediately following the SCS so thinking most will stick around to play in that? We shall see. I guess it is easy enough to reseed on the fly if needed.

that is super nice for you. I am going to put out the poll to the top 16 once solidified and see if they all want to chip in for trophies for 2-16.

If they dont then that is fine. If they do then sweet. I agree that just making the top 16 is a heck of an accomplishment.

We are still waiting on submissions for events from 8 and 10 months back in WI unfortunately.

Would be nice if things were locked down by now, but unfortunately there is one TD that failed badly on submissions happening in a timely manner. Apparently also a back up TD that is yet to get these results submitted.

I really wish IFPA would create a new rule that limits the time frame to something more reasonable than by Jan 9th of the following year. I think 2 months at most and honestly 1 month is more than reasonable to get results in. To me it is really going to be unfortunate if some players get bumped from top 16 this late in the game and were not able to have an accurate estimate of how/where they needed to spend their time the last month or 2 of the year.

If the IFPA comes up with a more reasonable rule around this then the player base will regulate the TDs better.

What do other active TDs think? What is a reasonable amount of time to have results submitted?

sorry, I did not mean to insinuate it is IFPA fault. I just would like to see a rule instated around a more reasonable time frame for result submission. If the IFPA makes a most strict rule around time frame then the players will self regulate the TDs to make sure results get in.

Given the popularity of the SCS and the desire to build it more while understanding the constraints of TDs, I would propose the following:

All events must be submitted within 2 months of the event being held.
Play an event on Jan 1st and you must have it submitted by March 1st in order to count.

Since many players in active states would like to gauge position more accurately going into the end of the year>>
Have a cut off that any event held on/before Oct 31 must have results submitted by 1 week. In other words, for the last 2 months of the year all events must be submitted within 1 week of end of event.

I would say the only difference is that those people that knew they played in events back in Feb, March, etc actually knew they had points awarded to them but not yet counted. Those people that could potentially get 'surprised' at the end of the year were at a disadvantage for knowing where they accurately stood (and many have no idea we are waiting on 10 month old events to be submitted by a replacement TD).

In showing the extreme of this, under the current rule ( submit by jan 9th of following year) I could hold back ALL results for events I TD for in 2016 and submit them by Jan 9th, 2017. Given the total number of events I run, the WI SCS picture would be completely inaccurate and nobody would be able to have much fun with the chase for points to the end of the year.

My heart is in the right place on this. I think there is a better way to handle things to make the SCS provide a more accurate perspective for players as the year comes to a close.

I would say that is great in a world of unlimited time and resources, but reality is many players have other life obligations (esp around the NOV/DEC holidays).

What negatives are there to providing the player base with a more accurate understanding of position going into the end of the year?

It is worth note that most players assume that when they look at their standing at any given time that it is relatively accurate and maybe only the last week or 2 of events are not accounted for since the majority of TDs are pretty good about result submission in a timely manner.

I was just told they are now all accounted for. There were 5 blackbird events, many from back at the beginning of the year and the TD was slacking. Sounds like Paul O took over and got them all in to IFPA now. Sounds like he is also taking over that location for next year so it is hopefully all good going forward.

first i have heard of it.

Pin-burgh is not any different than any other event. If they have screwed up results or even worse completely leaving people out of results then they should get it taken care of ASAP. Poor form, esp when someone pays BIG bucks to play in an event.

I dont know the back story, but if I was at pinburgh and my name was not in the results after this much time then I would be PO'd also, and rightfully so.

Josh, for SCS will each TD be getting an email from you with details soon?

How does the state selection process work? I forget from last year and this is my first time as TD for WI. We have some things to organize and people are asking me what is the timeframe for stuff.

thx

Keep it up and you Will be playing on all gottlieb 80b games

WI field is completely set now. Gonna be some great matchups and in partciular a brother vs brother in round 1.

I also get to play a friend in round 1 and we have been head to head in a few other local events this past year so will be lots of fun.

It is going to be a challenge to host and play but I am more focused on the hosting which is where I typically excell anyway

In WI the majority opted to chip in to get trophies for all places which I think is pretty cool. This also means people will hopefully/likely be playing out all matches through the losers bracket which is nice.

We have piggy backed on an additional event to the same day as our SCS in hopes that more people will be coming out to watch the SCS and then stick around to play in the second event. Things are shaping up to be really exciting and continuing to build competitive pinball in WI!

Really looking forward to next month.

Yup, only question left to tds is if you are resorting the losers based on actual seed position of whom gets knocked out each round.

For ease of having it all drawn up in advance, we are just p,aying it out in the predetermined format. In other words if #1 loses in round 1 they don't play the lowest seed in loser bracket but rather follow down the path that was already set from the start.

I have a post earlier in this thread somewhere with a pic of the full paths drawn out

Is this allowed? Would be much preferred to what i thought was required heads up 2 player for losers bracket.

Thanks for your genuine concern Ken.

Here it was previously stated that the format for playing out all consoliation brackets is 2 player, best of 3 format. If you have read all of Josh's posts he is talking about 2 player matches throughout the thread.

Also on the IFPA SCS rules page "All other finishing positions will also be played out in best-of-three matches to also determine 5th through 16th place." which falls within the "head-to-head" section of the rules.

I asked for more information as you can see it is not clear what are the allowed or expected format for all the losers brackets. I want to make sure we follow the IFPA expectations/rules around the losers bracket.

If people are doing 4 player, 3 game matches to determine losing bracket position, whom selects each game/position?

I wish we had more ability to have a leveled era/style of pin. Doing the best with what we have available.

Planned selection of WI SCS games:
DMD

Southpark
STpro
KISSpro
IM
HS2
AMH
BW
SWep1

Solidstate
Cyclone
BK2K (possible)
RoadKings
Taxi

EM
Goldstrike

backup/ possible
GOTprem
Hobbit
SMVE (unlikely to arrive in time but could happen)

now I am jealous! Sweet lineup!

one cool thing for WI SCS is this is the first year where all games are on route and available for public play.

I provided the "likely" player base the option of playing a more diverse collection for free (my house) or the aforementioned public location which is on coin drop and the resounding request was for a public location to remove any home field advantages.

WAY more logistics to get hammered out with it being in public location but should be fun. Funny part is even though I am in it, I will be unlikely to practice on any of the games even once.

Hoping for a fun event and some solid competition and then everyone checks their drama at the door.

should run pretty smooth. Occasional drama when machines break and things go down, but that is pinball. If anything, the majority of WI players are pretty tight knit now and I dont expect any drama.

lol.

Sorry Ken, I forgot to tell you that SCS is a no alcohol and no pot event this year. It was part of the deal of us having the back room.

that is am awesome line up. curious, how does player strategy change on demo when modifying it as you are?

good stuff. I recently got the game and have it on route for a bit. Once it comes home I have been thinking of disabling the claw.

lol

just make sure you bring enough for everyone that partakes. (and keep it out of sight of the general public; large kids bowling tournament that day in the main bowling area and we dont want to be 'the stoner pinheads' to the management )

Josh, can we get some clarification on this officially? It is unclear what is expected from on here vs on IFPA page vs in emails.

Since I am TD and also playing I want to make sure I have it correct up front and can publuish the plan for loser brackets in advance.

For consilation bracket:
What formats are allowed?
# of games required?
if doing more than 2 player matches, how is game/position selected?

if you dont care so long as it is published in advance, then that is cool also. please confrim either way

thanks for clarification

If doing 4 player matches for losers bracket what is the standard or reccommended IFPA format for whom picks game/ player order

For example I am thinking that in round 2 the eight winners stay in 2 packs (best of 7 games) as required and the 8 losers will stay in 2 packs for best of 3 match.

Then in round 3 the loser/losers will play in a 4 pack for 13-16 place, the loser/winners will play in a 4 pack for 9-12 place, and the winner/losers will play in a 4 pack for 5-8th place. What is suggested format for whom selects game and then order for those 4 player games? Thinking 3 games per match.

I was thinking for first game the highest seed gets choice of game or position, and then continue down the list based on original seed. The next game, loser from the first game gets choice and go back up the list. Does that work?

This year the IFPA rules clearly say that all consilation matches are to be played out. I will send an email to all 16 players once it is decided on specific consilation format and will also make it clear that all positions will be played out on the day of the event. I will also make it clear before any matches start that anyone wishing to quit playing will forfiet the reamining matches and take the lowest remaining slot based on when they exit. I am thinking this year since the majority of people chipped in to get trophies for finishing position that they will all be excited to stick around and play it out (previous email already told top 16 that all positions are to be played out this year but I will remind everyone). I am also hoping the additional event running after SCS means people will in general be pumped for a full day of competitive pinball and it will make the long drive worth it even if they go out early in SCS. Side positive of having GotPrem not used but on site may also give people knocked out early something to do while they wait.

Tom, do you think one format will be better than the other? Curious on your opinon. I see both as possibly fun.

1. What I described above. 4 player games after round 2 is over. 3 games to be played (4,3,2,1 scoring)
2. 2 player games all the way through the whole event. (best of 3 format for losers brackets)

Do you think one will be quicker than the other?

is 4,3,2,1 any different from 3,2,1,0 ?

does anyone else have experience on which should go faster?

Head to head or 4 player games?

yeah, the flip side is 2 groups of 2 both waiting on 1 game.

or 1 group of 4 just playing it out since more games available and less waiting?
4 packs also mean more games available for concurrent use by those still in winners bracket.

I was really just thinking the 4 player groups could be more fun. I figure If you lose twice then probably more fun to play in a 4 pack rather than 2 more heads up matches.

good point. Same could happen on ST or Kiss...

That is why I am PAPAizing the games

Here is the losers bracket format we have opted to do for WI.

We will use the following format for SCS rounds of play:

Winners bracket = heads up matches as outlined in SCS rules. First to 4 wins each round. Same format through entire winners bracket.

Losers bracket = no reseeding.

Round 2 the 8 losers from round 1 play heads up; first to 2 wins.

Round 3 those with a record of W, L after Round 2 will play 3, 4-player games (4,3,2,1 points) to determine 5-8 place.

Round 3 those with a record of L, W after Round 2 will play 3, 4-player games (4,3,2,1 points) to determine 9-12 place.

Round 3 those with a record of L, L afterRound 2 will play 3, 4-player games (4,3,2,1 points) to determine 13-16 place.

Round 4 those with a record of W, W, L will play heads up; first to 2 wins.

For heads up matches, higher seed select game or position on game 1. Following game 1, the loser selects game or position. Please note that winners bracket gets preference of game selection at all times.

For 4-player matches, for the first game the highest seed gets choice of game or position, and then continue down the list based on original seed. The next game, loser from the previous game gets choice and go back up the list.

In the case that anyone leaves or does not want to play after round 1, then they automatically take the lowest available position at that point.

GREAT trophies!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks Tom.

looking forward to a fun day on Sat!

Setting up all the games this afternoon for WI SCS.

Does anyone know of a way to diable RANSOM in settings for BK2K?

I was told it cant be diabled but I assume there is some way to do so?

that is my intial thought

I am fine with lock stealing (esp in a 2 player game) as I am a firm believer in that is pinball. Given the format, if you pick the game then position can be a detriment if you dont collect your multiball.

I dont find it to be one dimensional at all, but then again I owned it for a long time and set it up tough which made it very fun.

The Ransom carryover is more of an issue as it is not player controlled randomness (if that makes sense).

I will probably just dump it.

http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/State-Pinball-contest-to-be-held-in-Madison-368680161.html?device=phone&c=y

I dont care about the coinbox, just pumped to get some positive press for pinball and competitive pinball!

The lady doing the interviews was really into it. She hung out for 2 hours and got tons of footage. They did a 4pm and 5pm story yesterday and are likely doing a morning piece today. I was trying to convince her to come do some footage of the collector league we have also

Thanks Tom!

Had a blast in WI. Tim dominated all day long and deserved the great win! Plays like a gentleman and a scholar. He will be going to vegas and is pumped! We will all be rooting for him.

I hosted and ran the event while managing to finish LIONMAN!

image_(resized).jpeg

It was a ton of work, but just wanted to say again that the WI SCS was a blast. I needed a day to decompress and relax, but what a F U N time!

I personally am very happy with my 6th place finish. The format we came up with for consilation bracket was great and I highly reccomend it. Whole event took ~5hrs and looking forward to next year!

Thanks Yancy. I was pretty nervous to be on camera. I was happy with how the story came out and I think there is a decent chance the reporter is going to come out to a monthly soon. If she had met Tim, she would have for sure come out... (guy is a stud with the ladies and he can convince anyone to play pinball)

What happened

You have got to be joking??!?