Arlington Heights, IL
Quoted from Whysnow:How many people or what % of SCS states were represented at last years national?
89% of the SCS states were represented at Nationals (25 out of 28) last year.
(Topic ID: 115009)
Quoted from ifpapinball:89% of the SCS states were represented at Nationals (25 out of 28) last year.
Much better than I thought. Still don't care for the SCS $ seeding aspect but nice to see the that majority of people were in attendance. What makes you say >>>
Quoted from ifpapinball:I'm guessing most players wouldn't attend Nationals if they had to pay to get into the tournament, so we needed another way of motivating players to show up to make it a better competition.
With so many in attendance last year I am guessing a $100 entry fee would be small relative to the amount they each spent on flights, hotel, etc... and is not a barrier to participation.
Much better than I had thought too. I know Todd S didn't think we would get 10 out of the 28. I was thinking somewhere in the 14-16. The 25 really blew me away.
$100 is $100 any way you look at it. For this year tying in with the Pin-Masters, it means for $100 the player gets to enter both tournaments, instead of $100 for each.
The fact we filled up 16 spots in most of the states with the seeding of the National pot means that people didn't care enough to not show up for the SCS finals. That's good enough for me to continue doing things this way, and seeding a National pot.
Quoted from ifpapinball:The fact we filled up 16 spots in most of the states with the seeding of the National pot means that people didn't care enough to not show up for the SCS finals. That's good enough for me to continue doing things this way, and seeding a National pot.
I don't think your logic of "it did not scare off people from paying to get into SCS because they are gifting a portion of their entry to a top national person" is a great way to continue building the sport.
With 25/28 attending last year, it seems like a no brainer to just let each state winner choose if he wants to travel and give up his/her winnings to pay a $100 entry for nationals.
The way you say it, It honestly feels more like the reality is that 'top players will enjoy winning a bigger gaurenteed prize pool at nationals' so a good way to build that prize pool is with seed money from each state. This is the sort of thing that makes me want to run an entirely seperate State Event each year where all money goes to winners and give them the choice of travel or not to travel (just like you want to give the choice for SCS).
Using the desire of a local state player to field the top 16 in a state and then forcing the choice of "you can pay to seed nationals or just don't come to SCS" is a pretty shitty thing to say to someone that enjoys competing on a regional level IMO.
I'm sure if 6/28 attended last year, you would have argued that the money did nothing to encourage National participation, so the money should really all just stay at the State level 
I can appreciate your opinion. For me it was important to build the National Championship as an important cog in this wheel. The 31% take is a massive step down from the original 100% take that was originally planned.
Unless we see a massive protest where the SCS fields aren't filling up due to the fact we are trying seeding the Nationals pot . . . this is a decision we're sticking with, knowing full well there are 3 groups of people:
- People that think taking anything out of the State pool is bullshit
- People that think the percentage we're taking to seed the National prize pool is reasonable
- People that think we should be taking 100% of the SCS funds for Nationals, and holding a $10K tournament of champions
For those that share your opinion strong enough to not want to compete in the SCS, it's something we're willing to live with at this point.
Quoted from Replay:What's the story with Tennessee? Events during the year but no tracking and no SCS?
Never got a volunteer to step up as the State Rep and handle the logistics of running the State Championship.
Either that, or everyone in Tennessee saw that we take $100 out of the prize pool for Nationals, and this is their protest
Quoted from ifpapinball:$100 is $100 any way you look at it. For this year tying in with the Pin-Masters, it means for $100 the player gets to enter both tournaments, instead of $100 for each.
Conversely, it also means that some of us get to choose whether to support TPF or a once-off tournament. Timing sucks.
I can tell you that if I go to Nationals, I will be playing the tournament, taking my trophy, and flying back with it to attend TPF.
Quoted from Frax:Conversely, it also means that some of us get to choose whether to support TPF or a once-off tournament. Timing sucks.
With us hoping to have a permanent home at the Pinball Hall of Fame for Nationals, I'm out there for the Amusement Expo every year for my 'real job', so we're hoping that Pin-Masters becomes a permanent fixture as part of the trade show week out there.
Quoted from Frax:I can tell you that if I go to Nationals, I will be playing the tournament, taking my trophy, and flying back with it to attend TPF.
Hope to see you in Vegas, good luck in the Texas SCS! 
Quoted from ifpapinball:Much better than I had thought too. I know Todd S didn't think we would get 10 out of the 28. I was thinking somewhere in the 14-16. The 25 really blew me away.
You are very correct about that Josh. Seeing 25 make it to CO. really surprised me too. The nationals being in Vegas during other competitor friendly events should make that count raise a little bit. I'd think playing at the PHOF is a huge incentive to go in itself.
Quoted from ifpapinball:For those that share your opinion strong enough to not want to compete in the SCS, it's something we're willing to live with at this point.
Your gig, your choice.
Quoted from ifpapinball:I'm out there for the Amusement Expo every year for my 'real job'
I have probably typed about 50 responses to this, and none of them are nice, so all I will say is...
Whatever. I don't care about your work schedule, just like nobody else that schedules tournaments cares about mine.
I will be extremely fortunate to have the wife that I do if I get the chance to go.
And if people don't like it, it's their choice to be involved or not. Really it's that simple. The current format, etc. is fine and this entire thread seems to be talking about the smallest of minority of negative opinions. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Keep It Simple.
Quoted from Frax:I have probably typed about 50 responses to this, and none of them are nice, so all I will say is...
Whatever. I don't care about your work schedule, just like nobody else that schedules tournaments cares about mine.
No worries Josh. You may not care about my work schedule . . . but the events that I can fit into organizing with the wife and 2 kids at home HAVE to fit into my schedule, or the event simply doesn't happen.
Quoted from Ruger:The current format, etc. is fine and this entire thread seems to be talking about the smallest of minority of negative opinions. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Keep It Simple.
The one thing we've learned through the years is that the ultimate opinion is whether a player supports what we're doing by attending.
See both Hilton and Josh attending their SCS finals means that I can thank them for their support
I have a wife and 2 kids too, bud.....and you go to a hell of a lot more events and run a hell of a lot more than I do. It's not for lack of trying.
Oh, and seriously, I prefer 'Frax' over my actual name, even in normal conversation off the interwebz.
*Edit* I wouldn't dream of not attending the SCS state finals this year.. I played my butt off the last half of the year to get up to 2nd seed..
Quoted from ifpapinball:The one thing we've learned through the years is that the ultimate opinion is whether a player supports what we're doing by attending.
See both Hilton and Josh attending their SCS finals means that I can thank them for their support
I am glad my donation to the national event can help support you (assuming you make it and win).
I don't support what you are doing in this case, but when my options are to pay $20 to go hang out with my friends and have a fun day of competition or not..., then I will pay the $20 despite $100 from the winner being taken without their choice to support you and your buddies.
I will be looking at alternatives in the future and seeing what other players in the state value as that is whom I prefer to support. If they prefer we start crowning a real WI state champ with better prizes and more cash payout, instead of giving you and your buddies a portion of our prize pool then that is always an alternative worth looking in to.
Quoted from Whysnow:The way you say it, It honestly feels more like the reality is that 'top players will enjoy winning a bigger gaurenteed prize pool at nationals' so a good way to build that prize pool is with seed money from each state.
It IS!! Really, its less than $10.00!! Unless there is Sponsorship, players have always had to seed the pot. And if I win Colorado SCS, I will make the choice to either go to Nats, or the CO money, and chance at a TRUE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP will gladly be forfeited to those that can attend. IFPA already allows the 2nd place the option to attend, too. (I think)
This is the sort of thing that makes me want to run an entirely seperate State Event each year where all money goes to winners and give them the choice of travel or not to travel (just like you want to give the choice for SCS).
...Isn't that just called "every other event of the year"??
DNO, you don't currently have a "choice" if you are seeding to the national pot. That would be nice if each SCS winner had a choice of what to do with their winnings.
Quoted from DNO:...Isn't that just called "every other event of the year"??
I think the "WI state Championship" is more appropriate since it would be crowning the real WI state annual champ and be handing out more/better prizes and awarding 100% of prize pool money to winners in WI rather than a national event that will likely cost a thousand+ for some to attend.
Quoted from funtimewithdave:Guys dont forget about Vermont and West Virginia in 2015. Only 10 and 7 people signed up for SCS in those states. Road trip for points in 2015!
From the attendance at this League's sessions so far, I'd bet that situation isn't going to hold next year for Vermont
Quoted from Whysnow:I think the "WI state Championship" is more appropriate since it would be crowning the real WI state annual champ and be handing out more/better prizes.
so, the prize will be cheese?! right?
Quoted from GravitaR:You are very correct about that Josh. Seeing 25 make it to CO. really surprised me too. The nationals being in Vegas during other competitor friendly events should make that count raise a little bit. I'd think playing at the PHOF is a huge incentive to go in itself.
We don't travel much. The trip out to Colorado was awesome and we met some great pinball people and saw some amazing sites. Beautiful area.
If one of us is fortunate enough to represent our state (we have 2 shots!) I am sure a first time trip to PHOF/Vegas will be a treat.
Quoted from Whysnow:In other words, "play SCS where you play your most competitive pinball". I don't buy the "too far to travel in my own state for SCS" arguement. Many of the top players travel what I think are crazy distances every month to play in big events all over the world. If the WI SCS is 6 hours away in tippy top WI I have no problem making the drive. I am guessing many people have traveled a similar distance during the year to play in previous events???
Maybe in bigger states with multiple population centers of players, like CA? I can see travel being an issue even within a state. However, in most cases this would seem to provide more incentive to make more events and host more competitions, only further growing the sport. Maybe making some sort of agreement that the SCS travels to a new region each year?
I believe there's a gentleman's agreement that the California tournament alternates between NorCal and SoCal. This did make for a big difference in how far down the list the CA organizers have to go. Last year for SoCal it went to number 30 or a bit higher and this year in NorCal it only went to number 19.
The SF Bay Area has a massive amount of tournaments so the top 16 for SCS is stacked heavily in NorCal's favor. And we're just not used to driving 6 hours for a tournament (many of us hippies don't even have cars). When the choice is between playing INDISC or SCS, INDISC wins out for Bay Area traveling pinball folks.
I honestly don't see it as a problem though. In practice I'll only focus on SCS every other year? Not a big deal, as long as I get to play pinball somewhere else. It evens out the fact that NorCal has so many more events throughout the year.
The only interesting aspect of the scs championship at pinball hall of fame is that not one pinball tournament was held at pinball hall of fame during the whole year. Maybe this could be something to help pinball hall of fame start to have more tournaments in future because 2014 saw no action from phof for scs championship series.
North Carolina was one of states that did not field a player for last years scs champ. in Colorado . Both players who could qualify had job obligations and a little sticker shock adding up cost to go to colorado .
Love seeing this thread gain steam. I want to see more tournament pinball discussions on pinside.
Super excited to play in Texas this year. It's going to be a truly epic battle. Curious to see which major city takes home the trophy....
I'm pretty sure Austin C. will be stream at least some of the action in NH.
http://www.twitch.tv/nhpinballstreams/profile
Quoted from Whysnow:I am glad my donation to the national event can help support you (assuming you make it and win).
I don't support what you are doing in this case, but when my options are to pay $20 to go hang out with my friends and have a fun day of competition or not..., then I will pay the $20 despite $100 from the winner being taken without their choice to support you and your buddies.
Actually it's $30 this year. Everyone has to pay $10 additional each for refreshments and food. I don't believe the National Tournament gets a cut of that money though.
I remember back in the day when there were the Iowa State Championships, Michigan State
Championships, Ohio State Championships and IIRC, the Wisconsin State Championships (Bud Ice sponsored it in Kenosha ?). The prizes were pretty big. I think the Michigan one paid out a grand to the winner along with a power ball key chain made from a guy that ran Pinball Pete's. I suppose there's no reason these sorts of events couldn't co-exist with the cool new SCS series or with large side pots if they wanted to be one in the same event.
Quoted from Whysnow:I think the "WI state Championship" is more appropriate since it would be crowning the real WI state annual champ and be handing out more/better prizes and awarding 100% of prize pool money to winners in WI rather than a national event that will likely cost a thousand+ for some to attend.
This turned out to be a seminal event Todd, since that is where the ubiquitous Herb format originated.
Quoted from GravitaR:My last visit to the PHOF was the year of the last Pinball Fantasy show at the Plaza Hotel. So it's been awhile since I've been there. May just make the trip out anyhow as a vacation.
I like most everything about the way the IFPA SCS is organized and being run.
The rules all seems to be pretty well thought out.
Players should definitely be able to pick which state tournament they will compete in if they qualified in the top 16 in multiple states. Although weather in Louisiana in early/mid Feb is usually decent and does not create travel concerns down here, I totally understand that many tournament pinball players in northern states may not want to travel far due to safety concerns ...just to play in their state tournament which may happen to be on the other side of the state.
IFPA could consider charging a slightly larger tournament fee for out-of-staters to enter/compete in the State Championship Tournament. It is common to charge out-of-staters more for hunting and fishing licenses, college semester fees, etc. So not a new concept. Many would still be ok with this, especially if they are saving $100 in gas to drive 15 minutes to enter a neighboring state's tournament compared to where their home state tournament is being held at that particular year.
The location of the National Championship tournament should be on a rotating schedule, perhaps on a 6 yr basis. For example: Yr 1 - eastern USA, Yr 2 - southern USA, Yr 3 - western USA, Yr 4 - northern USA, Yr 5 central USA, Yr 6 at PHOF (or wherever IFPA wants to have it at every 6th yr).
Quoted from Pinball-is-great:The location of the National Championship tournament should be on a rotating schedule, perhaps on a 6 yr basis. For example: Yr 1 - eastern USA, Yr 2 - southern USA, Yr 3 - western USA, Yr 4 - northern USA, Yr 5 central USA, Yr 6 at PHOF (or wherever IFPA wants to have it at every 6th yr).
In theory that's a great idea (one we use for our World Championship as well).
Reality is that I can't make the National Championship an 'additional' pinball trip with respect to my personal pinball travels. Negotiating that additional hall pass from the wife just isn't going to happen until the kids are much older.
This is why we ended up doing it in Denver last year (we were already out there for the World Championship), and why it's likely to stay in Las Vegas (we're always out there for the Amusement Expo - myself, my brother and my dad).
The backup to the backup plan was to simply invite all the State Champs to my house to play for the National Championship. This was extremely close to reality last year when we ran into some conflicting dates with the Vegas show and Pinburgh.
Quoted from Replay:What's the story with Tennessee? Events during the year but no tracking and no SCS?
Quoted from ifpapinball:Never got a volunteer to step up as the State Rep and handle the logistics of running the State Championship.
Sounds like they need to change their motto. I of course say this in the friendliest of terms...
That extra $10 is a states choice depending on where the tourney is held. We play at a public location so players food is on their own dime.
Quoted from triadwatch:The only interesting aspect of the scs championship at pinball hall of fame is that not one pinball tournament was held at pinball hall of fame during the whole year.
Pinball Hall of Fame did have tournaments in 2014, I played in two there in March.
Quoted from SolarRide:I remember back in the day when there were the Iowa State Championships, Michigan State
Championships, Ohio State Championships and IIRC, the Wisconsin State Championships (Bud Ice sponsored it in Kenosha ?). The prizes were pretty big. I think the Michigan one paid out a grand to the winner along with a power ball key chain made from a guy that ran Pinball Pete's. I suppose there's no reason these sorts of events couldn't co-exist with the cool new SCS series or with large side pots if they wanted to be one in the same event.This turned out to be a seminal event Todd, since that is where the ubiquitous Herb format originated.
DAMN!! All those years I was living so close in Racine and I was too busy getting drunk and chasing tail. I could have been world champion by now if I only knew.
Quoted from Pinball-is-great:For example: Yr 1 - eastern USA, Yr 2 - southern USA, Yr 3 - western USA, Yr 4 - northern USA, Yr 5 central USA, Yr 6 at PHOF (or wherever IFPA wants to have it at every 6th yr).
This is a FANTASTIC idea or maybe even better would be to rotate the national event among the major shows in the US?
Year 1 > TPF, Year 2> MGC, Year>3 Allentown, etc...
I am sure you could find volunteers to help run the event at each of these shows. Granted this means that the national championship happens at a different time each year, but that would be a nice arrangement for those that have limited time or ability to travel for pinball and an actual COMPROMISE with all the players that support the SCS and the directors that host and support IFPA events throughout the year.
Josh,
Another good COMPROMISE I can think of concerning the forced SCS money seed to nationals would be to continue down the line for each state till you find someone that wants to go to nationals. If 1 and 2 can't/don't want to go, then why not allow 3 or 4 or 5 or... in the state attend? Since the state will have already been forced to pay the entry for their representative, then only seems fair to allow each state to at least fill that slot.
What would be the harm in that?
Similar thing happened with our madison FWTG. I think we would need to go 5 deep before someone is able to make it to vegas that weekend and that person has expressed interest in attending. I can see similar circumstances for nationals.
"make them pay, then allow them to play"
Hilton - the winner or runner up only is also by design. The issue being that we want to apply pressure to the higher ranked players that they HAVE to perform at the State level. People like Trent or even myself and Zach, if we know that we can make nationals no matter what, and nobody else on the SCS field can, it renders the importance of the actual State Championship itself useless.
We originally wanted it to be "state champs only" so we wouldn't run into a situation where someone was the National Champ without actually being a State Champ.
The fact we filled 25/28 spots last year using only the Champ/runner up concept is showing me that it's working fine at the moment.
As for rotating Nationals that just isn't possible with my schedule, and it's a tournament we would always want to directly run ourselves (like our World Championship).
Josh
Quoted from ifpapinball:People like Trent or even myself and Zach, if we know that we can make nationals no matter what, and nobody else on the SCS field can, it renders the importance of the actual State Championship itself useless.
This tells me that there is obviously no real potential for any compromise/discussion and your motivation is squarely aligned with the national event you are running and how you can make it more lucrative and easy to attend for the select few (apparently you, your brother, and Trent being the main people you are concerned about).
I really do think it is unfortunate that your personal motives are weighing heavily on how you attempt to grow the sport without looking to some of your active state based people for input and advice on what their motives are and how to compromise and find something that will grow the sport without the main concern only being to support the bank accounts of the few based on the donation of the many. I do really feel you have put the horse in front of the cart on this particular one.
We're always listening and have felt that we've already compromised based on what we drew up as the original SCS plan.
Original plan was $320 all to the National pot, we adjusted to keeping $220 at the state level.
Original plan was State Champs only for Nationals, we adjusted to allowing the runner up to attend as an alternate.
Compromises have been and will continue to be made when the feedback we get warrants it. Your opinion is well stated. The number of people that share in your opinion is something I'm interested in seeing.
Quoted from Whysnow:I really do think it is unfortunate that your personal motives are weighing heavily on how you attempt to grow the sport without looking to some of your active state based people for input and advice on what their motives are and how to compromise and find something that will grow the sport without the main concern only being to support the bank accounts of the few based on the donation of the many. I do really feel you have put the horse in front of the cart on this particular one.
Did you skip your meds today?
Its a tournament they organized... One that frankly exists only to encourage more play... Not for their personal gain. You keep harping on things like you are donating to their personal pot.. Or that they are staging it for themselves.. Etc. It's not even worth the $$ for them.. This is about encouraging more play. If you think they are so petty they need to spend a year of their life and hundreds of hours to chase a few hundred dollars... While they all are quite happily employees with well paying jobs...You need your head checked.
You keep lashing out because your ideas aren't well received vs listening to why and understanding their choices. If you don't like their format.... Run more tournaments of your own. If it gets more people playing... The outcome is the same and I doubt josh would care you don't like the scs because if you get more people playing that's the whole idea anyway
Quoted from ifpapinball:Your opinion is well stated. The number of people that share in your opinion is something I'm interested in seeing.
In discussions with the top 16 in WI and about 50/50 split on those that agree with my points and others have mainly said they do not agree with mandatory donation to nationals but they are willing to pay into national pot because they enjoy the state competition. So far only 1 has said he supports seeding the national pool.
So far the majority said they would support an annual state event which pays out 100% to those players over the current model of seeding the national event with ~30% of our prize pool.
So far only 2 WI players plan to attend nationals if they win. 1 because he is already in vegas for another reason and other because he wants the opportunity to play some of the best in the world.
I feel the SCS/Nationals is set up fairly with regards to entry fees, who is eligible, prizes, format, etc. My personal opinion based partially on what I see here in Alabama is the % of states represented in the Nationals will be lower this year than last year. I won state last year but elected not to go. So our runner up decided to go, mainly because it would be a great father/son trip and they could drive(even though it was 20 hours one-way). This year I doubt that whoever wins(Myself, Timmy, or several others who are quite capable of winning) would pony up a flight/hotel/expenses from Alabama to Vegas, especially since those of us here who do travel to events are already planning 3 or 4 out of state pinball trips this year.(Louisville, Southern Fried, Pinburgh, Papa?)
I would absolutely love to win the SCS and make the trip to Vegas, but I just don't see it happening.
Good feedback Hilton, thanks.
Looking at the WI registration and seeing 25 out of the top 27 players in the standings choosing to participate in either the WI SCS or neighboring state is a great sign of people choosing to support the SCS under the current structure. We'll continue to look at these numbers across the states to see what kind of support percentages we're seeing under the current rules, and pivot from there.
If there was an alternative non-IFPA state championship with 100% payback within state and we saw the interest in the SCS decline, that would be a great data point to analyze.
Quoted from Flamethrower:Pinball Hall of Fame did have tournaments in 2014, I played in two there in March.
Feb 17 LV Pinball Tournament
Mar 22 Pin Pin101 Tournament
Apr 22 LV Pinball Tournament
Jun 11 LV Pinball Tournament
Aug 31 Pintastic Pin-O-rama Pingolf Tournament
Sep 20 Olympia Pinball Showdown
Nov 1 IFPA POP Fundraiser - Las Vegas
Dec 18 Silver Balls Winter Tournament
March 22 is at phof
Quoted from ifpapinball:Looking at the WI registration and seeing 25 out of the top 27 players in the standings choosing to participate in either the WI SCS or neighboring state is a great sign of people choosing to support the SCS under the current structure.
Just want to make sure I am clear that based on feedback from the 16 that choose WI it could more accurately be stated as they are choosing to support the SCS "despite" the current structure.
I am still waiting on opinions from some of the people I have reached out to survey, but so far the majority response is that they want to support the local event despite the current national payment/structure.
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