(Topic ID: 115009)

IFPA Championship Series 2014-2015 discussion thread

By Pinball-is-great

9 years ago


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    There are 642 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 13.
    #101 9 years ago
    Quoted from Zaxxis:

    It's a nice show ran by nice people

    Was not even remotely saying otherwise...that had nothing to do with it. My wife and I have family in Louisville. It's a place I would frankly like to live, if for no other reason than to eat at Moby Dick until I die of a coronary. We keep trying to find a way to get up there for the Expo but the timing never works out becuase we don't want to blow all our vacation for the year in the first three months with Lousiville being early march, then TPF right after that, and my kid's spring break right in the middle?

    I don't know the format there, I haven't looked to be honest, but I know that very rarely do I have time to "hang out with friends" at something like Texas Pinball Festival. Even when you put up a monster score, I'm still watching the boards like a hawk and trying to requalify in other divisions when it's pump and dump. Maybe you guys have a more social-friendly format, which is always my personal preference.

    Kinda feel like we got pooched with PAPA trying to have a circuit event at Pinballz. They had little interest in accommodating what PAPA really needed as far as I heard....didn't want to move games, location had to stay open to regular cx's etc.. seemed like it was about advertising their business more than it was about having a prestigious tournament circuit event, ya know? Anwyays...that's the past.

    I find it interesting that one of our local guys made a spreadsheet showing that TX will be the 2nd or 3rd most difficult field in the SCS this year, depending on the last person's choice of state...but it still seems like WE can't pull together enough organization to host a "major". It's just crazy, that's all. I don't think that distance or ability of them to broadcast should matter at all, frankly. If it does, then there's no reason they should get a higher base value at all, because that has nothing to do with pinball skill.

    I don't know if it's been answered, and this isn't really the place for it, so I'll just ask for a response on this as a yes or no, but do "majors" like PAPA and IFPA get a higher value right off the top under WPPR 5.0, or is that going away and they're going to be rated like every other tournament based on who attends and format?

    #102 9 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I would argue otherwise. We created a scoring system where players have unlimited opportunities to earn as many WPPR points as they can, wherever they can. That's the 'metric' used in determining who is "best" for SCS purposes.
    Trent played in 1 event in Indiana, and qualified 25th. Looks like he could have been the 15th seed if he selected Indiana based on how the choices above him shook out. This would make him the "15th best player" in the IN SCS field by our metrics, and we take the top 16 to get into the dance.
    Again I think "IN" that State and "FROM" that State are two vastly different things, understanding completely the need/want to have someone FROM that State be crowned the best IN that State.

    I understand where you're coming from, and like ryanwagner, this isn't particularly affecting me yet, as I'm definitely not one of the best players FROM or IN my state. It just feels like a bit of a slap in the face to see so many people as top qualifiers from out of state. I get it, we need to play better, that's fine. It just plain doesn't seem like a state championship. It's not unique in any way from any other tournament that occurs on the same day as another out-of-state tournament.

    #103 9 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I am pretty sure that often misconstrue my desire to grow the sport of competitive pinball in WI as 'worked up' in text. Just laying out some ideas and having fun.
    If you don't care about SCS stuff then why are you in this thread?

    When the points of why it's done the way it's done are laid out and you reply with "Yeah, I hear you, BUT ... (large counter argument)" -- it comes across as worked up. IMO, anyway.

    I care enough about the SCS finals to casually read about it in a forum thread, like most of the stuff on Pinside. Sorry I felt compelled to comment on what seems like unnecessary badgering of the guy who runs the show.

    #104 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    I don't know if it's been answered, and this isn't really the place for it, so I'll just ask for a response on this as a yes or no, but do "majors" like PAPA and IFPA get a higher value right off the top under WPPR 5.0, or is that going away and they're going to be rated like every other tournament based on who attends and format?

    Yes. "Majors" get a 1.5 "Grand Slam" multiplier for point calculation.

    Marcus

    #105 9 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    ifpapinball said:

    2) Games being used for various SCS finals. Again, all things being equal between two State choices, for me personally I would take the game list as probably the BIGGEST factor in where I would decide and play. Someone like my dad would love to choose a heavier classics game field, while I would tend to choose the State with a more modern game field. This can't be done until the SCS sites are picked, and some investigating into the game list is done. This was actually a question posed by a few Illinois players who were looking to play to their own strengths when deciding what State to pick.

    This feels kind of shady. I understand that people have earned the right to play in different states, but this is kind of gaming the system isn't it?

    IMO it's not shady at all. Players have different motivations for what the SCS means to THEM, although I love people projecting what it means to them on 'everyone else'.

    Here's what I see, and I talk to a TON of players about the SCS and they vary greatly in skill level/interest:

    1) Players just interested in making the cut ANYWHERE, just to play in a State Championship for the thrill of it

    2) Players interested in being the State Champ of their home state, where they have spent the year mostly battling those same players that will be in the SCS field

    3) Players that are looking for the easiest path to any State Championship crown, with the motivating factor being the glory, or the easiest path to Nationals (~$4000 prize pool) + a chance to qualify for the IFPA World's.

    My opinion is that players have earned the right for the SCS to mean whatever they want to them. With actual tangible value on the line with the Nationals trip and potential spot in the World Championship, I can't fault someone who's motivating factor is trying to find the easiest path, no matter how many people may disagree with that being an appropriate motivating factor.

    #106 9 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    Sorry I felt compelled to comment on what seems like unnecessary badgering of the guy who runs the show.

    Please keep in mind that the "guy who runs the show" is in reality the "people" that run all the shows. There is a large contingent of people throughout the world now that choose to put in countless hours and energy organizing and running thousands of events each year for the betterment of the sport and the FUN of all involved. What you call 'worked up' comes off as an insult and makes a passion for pinball and interest in running events sound shallow, esp when I have a vested interest in improving the sport and the SCS in particular.

    I am sorry to Josh if you felt my responses were Badgering and I hope we know each other well enough by now to know we both have the same common desires to build the sport and support pinball playing and competing. I have nothing but the utmost respect for what you have done with the IFPA and the great growth that competitive pinball is having! My opinions and ideas are all couched in a desire to make things better and continue the positive trajectory.

    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    With actual tangible value on the line with the Nationals trip and potential spot in the World Championship, I can't fault someone who's motivating factor is trying to find the easiest path, no matter how many people may disagree with that being an appropriate motivating factor.

    I hope you can see that how this motivation of a few could possibly be holding back the positive growth and dampen the perspective of many others. At some point I have to think there is a greater good where the growth of the sport and SCS for the majority needs to be factored in. Lots of differnet motives from those playing as you ahve pointed out, but which motives shoudl be cattered to?

    #107 9 years ago
    Quoted from Xerico:

    Yes. "Majors" get a 1.5 "Grand Slam" multiplier for point calculation.

    Marcus

    To clarify this, there are FOUR Grand Slam tournaments that the IFPA recognizes based on the prestige of those events. These events follow the exact same formula as every other event, and then get a 50% boost due to the level of importance those events have on the sport.

    PAPA World Championships - A division
    IFPA World Championships - Main Tournament
    Pinburgh Match Play Championships - A division
    European Pinball Championships - Main Tournament

    #108 9 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I am sorry to Josh if you felt my responses were Badgering

    I like the Madison WI pun . . . nicely done

    #109 9 years ago
    Quoted from aobrien5:

    It's not unique in any way from any other tournament that occurs on the same day as another out-of-state tournament.

    That's an interesting point.

    What if points awarded in majors did not count for eligibility towards state championship(s)? I love Trent, he's obviously an amazing player, should be able to play in any tournament he wants, and this is not a knock at him at all...but it looks like he would have qualified in 12 states. Should he really be able to represent any of those 12 as state champion? Is that good for the state championship series? Does he even want the title "Florida State Champion"? Hypothetically: if he played circuit events exclusively, should he even be competing in a state championship - since he only played 1 event in 10 different states?

    Since majors are so heavily weighted, isn't the IFPA World Championship essentially the championship for players winning majors & circuit events? Why have those people crowd out locals grinding away at dozens of tournaments in their home state?

    This probably isn't even a real issue - I'm just thinking out loud.

    #110 9 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    Does he even want the title "Florida State Champion"?

    See the 3 motivating factors that I mentioned.

    If he's motivated in 'easiest path to Nationals' and an attempt at a $4K prize pool, AND he thinks that Florida is the easiest path for him, AND he earned the right to choose that State through his play in IFPA endorsed tournaments . . . then YES (even if he could care less about the Florida State title itself).

    I believe that under WPPR v5.0 the locals grinding away will have a much bigger impact. Under the old system every weekly/monthly tournament was limited to 25 WPPR points for that State in a given year. Now it's UNLIMITED.

    For example, there's a league in New York that is a weekly league, I believe they had 72 players the first week. The winner of that week will be getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 35+ WPPR points for the NY SCS. They then get to do it AGAIN the following week. With those rules the players dropping in to play in a Circuit event in town have NO CHANCE to compete against the nearly 2000 WPPR points that this league will award as part of the NY SCS for 2015 should they run it 52 weeks this year.

    Under the old system, those 52 events would be worth 0.5 WPPR points each . . . now they are 70X that value under the new system.

    #111 9 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I am pretty sure that often misconstrue my desire to grow the sport of competitive pinball in WI as 'worked up' in text. Just laying out some ideas and having fun.
    If you don't care about SCS stuff then why are you in this thread?

    You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Worried about the field going into the 20s to fill the 16? Boo freaking ho. We're into the 40s here because of the travel people do in our region

    #112 9 years ago

    As another WI SCS participant I'm happy with the way things are setup. Sure there is always the chance that someone from out of state will try to take the so called "easy" path of getting to Nationals and getting extra IFPA points by competing here vs. their home state but even if they do decide to play here it is within their rights because they have traveled here and performed well in the past. We all abide by a common set of rules.

    I know I for one would take a lot more pride in doing well in my home state vs. competing in IA, MN, or IL, etc. It just feels cool to say I finished "X" in my own State Championship vs. a State you don't live in. Not to mention if you travel you have a huge target on your head and face the risk that karma will catch up with you for trying to take the cheap path to victory. I am happy that the Wisconsin field is all home state participants this year but even if there were out of State participants I would be fine with it. I would just use that as added motivation to perform better.

    #113 9 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    IMO it's not shady at all. Players have different motivations for what the SCS means to THEM, although I love people projecting what it means to them on 'everyone else'.
    Here's what I see, and I talk to a TON of players about the SCS and they vary greatly in skill level/interest:
    1) Players just interested in making the cut ANYWHERE, just to play in a State Championship for the thrill of it
    2) Players interested in being the State Champ of their home state, where they have spent the year mostly battling those same players that will be in the SCS field
    3) Players that are looking for the easiest path to any State Championship crown, with the motivating factor being the glory, or the easiest path to Nationals (~$4000 prize pool) + a chance to qualify for the IFPA World's.
    My opinion is that players have earned the right for the SCS to mean whatever they want to them. With actual tangible value on the line with the Nationals trip and potential spot in the World Championship, I can't fault someone who's motivating factor is trying to find the easiest path, no matter how many people may disagree with that being an appropriate motivating factor.

    Sorry, I shouldn't have been projecting what it means to everyone else. I'm not even sure what it means to me!

    That's a good breakdown. So mostly, it's just the number 3 category that is being discussed in this thread. I'm sure most won't argue with that being a perfectly valid motivation, but if people in groups 1 and 2 are feeling screwed over by group 3 (which, I imagine, is a much smaller sized group), then there will be some complaining.

    Josh, I really appreciate you commenting in this thread. It's certainly not necessary. I'm not even trying to complain, just discussing, and now feel guilty about it because I'm sure you've got better things to do.

    #114 9 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I believe that under WPPR v5.0 the locals grinding away will have a much bigger impact. Under the old system every weekly/monthly tournament was limited to 25 WPPR points for that State in a given year. Now it's UNLIMITED.

    For example, there's a league in New York that is a weekly league, I believe they had 72 players the first week. The winner of that week will be getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 35+ WPPR points for the NY SCS. They then get to do it AGAIN the following week. With those rules the players dropping in to play in a Circuit event in town have NO CHANCE to compete against the nearly 2000 WPPR points that this league will award as part of the NY SCS for 2015 should they run it 52 weeks this year.

    Under the old system, those 52 events would be worth 0.5 WPPR points each . . . now they are 70X that value under the new system.

    This is badass. Can't wait to see it in action.

    #115 9 years ago

    I have a suggestion for improving the SCS series for 2015.

    Please add a page to the IFPA website for "Upcoming Tournaments by State", with the following columns:

    - Date
    - Location
    - Time
    - "WPPR Points Category" // Identifies how many WPPR points will/may be available
    - Contact info - website, phone, email

    I had a very difficult time trying to keep informed of upcoming tournaments in IL that I should attend to make SCS, and a page like this would be great. I think it would boost event attendance in many cases. I think you guys have done a great job on the IFPA website, so I'm not complaining but think this would be a great addition.

    #116 9 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    I had a very difficult time trying to keep informed of upcoming tournaments in IL that I should attend to make SCS, and a page like this would be great. I think it would boost event attendance in many cases. I think you guys have done a great job on the IFPA website, so I'm not complaining but think this would be a great addition.

    Have you checked out the new IFPA calendar?

    http://www.ifpapinball.com/calendar/

    Default setting is to pull up any IFPA endorsed tournament within a 500 mile radius of where it recognizes your IP address. You can then zoom in/out as preferred (it's a Google Maps interface).

    It will show that list of all events within X number of miles, with links to those calendar submissions that will show details of the tournament that you are asking about.

    #117 9 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    I have a suggestion for improving the SCS series for 2015.
    Please add a page to the IFPA website for "Upcoming Tournaments by State", with the following columns:
    - Date- Location- Time- "WPPR Points Category" // Identifies how many WPPR points will/may be available- Contact info - website, phone, email
    I had a very difficult time trying to keep informed of upcoming tournaments in IL that I should attend to make SCS, and a page like this would be great. I think it would boost event attendance in many cases. I think you guys have done a great job on the IFPA website, so I'm not complaining but think this would be a great addition.

    There is a map that will cover a fair amount of this. I look at everything within 500 miles of where I live and then it lists below the map the events that it finds.

    #118 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    SMH....
    Don't understand how a state that has one event a year, and no other tourneys a year, gets a PAPA circuit event.
    Seriously, their "three qualifying events" were the LAST YEAR'S SCS tournament, Louiville Expo, and the PRE-Louisville Expo tournament. They literally had nothing that was not directly the result of the Louisville Expo all year long.
    As far as "all the ringers showing up"...they're there BECAUSE it's a circuit event, and no other reason. Look at the pre-expo tournament. Three guys in the top 100 including Trent, got beat out by four unranked guys and one guy in the 8000s. You cannot judge someone's skill by their IFPA ranking alone. It's impossible, and everyone will have a bad run here or there..

    A group from PAPA comes down from Pittsburgh to operate the tournament at the Louisville Arcade Expo. It is a high-quality event and tournament, and that's why it has strong attendance. The group that runs Louisville Arcade Expo has no control over what other events occur in that state throughout the year. Whether or not there are other tournaments in that state shouldn't be relevant to the quality of the events it does have. One could make a reasonable argument that there shouldn't be a Kentucky IFPA State Champion given the low number of events in the state: last year the minimum number of events was 4 and has been lowered to 2.

    FYI, PAPA Circuit is expanding and is moving to a more democratic process for event selection in 2015-16. See the details here for how to apply:

    http://papa.org/2015/01/02/2015-16-papa-circuit-details/

    #119 9 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    To clarify this, there are FOUR Grand Slam tournaments that the IFPA recognizes based on the prestige of those events. These events follow the exact same formula as every other event, and then get a 50% boost due to the level of importance those events have on the sport.
    PAPA World Championships - A division
    IFPA World Championships - Main Tournament
    Pinburgh Match Play Championships - A division
    European Pinball Championships - Main Tournament

    Lame, but not as lame as I thought, I suppose. There's no barrier to entry to three of these four other than travel and cost. Everyone has "equal" (I use that term very loosely since the vast majority of us don't have the luxury of travel that the top 20 seem to..but we have established in prior converstaion that there's no way to make that "fair" so it is what it is..) chance to participate.

    I still don't agree that these events NEED the points draw, and could make a very strong argument that IFPAWC in particular the last two years at least nobody outside of the top 100 has received enough points for it to even truly matter versus a local tournament, so the bonus is a moot point...unless you're already floating amongst the elite.

    My point was I was hoping that TPF would be able to draw back the really competitive guys at some point with the relative success the tournament area had last year, but so much has been scheduled right around and on top of it that there's no reason for anyone to come down here... there's no points bonus to do so, no incentive in the form of it counting towards the PAPA circuit.. etc... maybe next year?

    Anyways.. since I don't expect to be able to change anyone's mind, I'm done commenting about it. Respond in PM if ya want...or not. Doesn't really matter. Thanks for filling me in though. Perhaps at some point this system will change. I'm going to try to get into the top 100 at least, and after that, I'm done with caring about IFPA points, unless I win the lottery, then you better look out lol.

    </derail> Back to your regularly scheduled on-topic conversation..

    #120 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Kinda feel like we got pooched with PAPA trying to have a circuit event at Pinballz. They had little interest in accommodating what PAPA really needed as far as I heard....didn't want to move games, location had to stay open to regular cx's etc.. seemed like it was about advertising their business more than it was about having a prestigious tournament circuit event, ya know? Anwyays...that's the past.

    Pinballz moved 10 machines into a special location for the event, made that area of its space off-limits to customers, and spent a ton of time bulletproofing those games for the event. PAPA never asked Pinballz to close to regular customers, as far as I know, and I was the PAPA representative at the Pinballz PAPA Circuit event.

    You say "we got pooched with PAPA", I'm not sure what you mean by "we". I don't recall names against Pinside names well, so I'm sorry that I don't remember you from the Pinballz event. I felt it was well organized on their part, started and ended on time, and 100% of the money collected in entries was paid out in prizes.

    #121 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    My point was I was hoping that TPF would be able to draw back the really competitive guys at some point with the relative success the tournament area had last year, but so much has been scheduled right around and on top of it that there's no reason for anyone to come down here... there's no points bonus to do so, no incentive in the form of it counting towards the PAPA circuit.. etc... maybe next year?

    When is it? TPF should consider applying for PAPA Circuit if that is a target: http://papa.org/2015/01/02/2015-16-papa-circuit-details

    I only attended once, and that was coincidental (I had business in the immediate area). I generally can only travel to 3-4 events per year. Players are motivated to attend an event by many factors -- the prize pool and the percentage of the prize pool paid out, the timing of events, a set of well-publicized and well-followed rules, a good balance between the "grind" of tournament qualifying versus the fun of being at a pinball show with friends. From the PAPA page above:

    "PAPA’s preexisting agreements with individual tournaments will be dissolved, and the entire Circuit calendar will be based off of what the players themselves choose as the best events. Tournament directors will no longer be required to convince PAPA representatives of the high quality of their event, they will be required to make decisions that convince the players themselves."

    #122 9 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    ... and 100% of the money collected in entries was paid out in prizes.

    Sorry for going off topic, but this has become such an important factor as to how I participate in a tournament.

    I really don't feel good about supporting events that are not transparent about how the money is split up behind the scenes. If guaranteed prize amounts are listed ahead of time that's a different story, but I don't want to pay into any events where the entry fees are supporting the show or TDs/show organizers are taking cuts before the payouts are split up. I've done the math at some Herb style events and I'm left scratching my head about where all the money disappeared to.

    #123 9 years ago

    Replying in PM Bowen. Trying to let this thread serve it's intent.

    #124 9 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    last year the minimum number of events was 4 and has been lowered to 2.

    I believe it's always been 2 . . . the reason being that the SCS standings wouldn't just be the same standings as the only tournament that happened in the state.

    Once you get past having one piece of data, I've always been in full support of adding that State to the SCS and trying to then use that motivation to help increase the number of tournaments available.

    #125 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    I still don't agree that these events NEED the points draw, and could make a very strong argument that IFPAWC in particular the last two years at least nobody outside of the top 100 has received enough points for it to even truly matter versus a local tournament, so the bonus is a moot point...unless you're already floating amongst the elite.

    My point was I was hoping that TPF would be able to draw back the really competitive guys at some point with the relative success the tournament area had last year, but so much has been scheduled right around and on top of it that there's no reason for anyone to come down here... there's no points bonus to do so, no incentive in the form of it counting towards the PAPA circuit.. etc... maybe next year?

    The WPPR's awarded at the IFPAWC end up impacting the race for #1 more than it impacts things elsewhere down the rankings. With that tournament being the most important tournament in our world, the impact it has on our World Rankings has always been designed to be extremely meaningful, on purpose.

    In my talks with Marcus, under WPPR v5.0 TPF should absolutely be in the top-top of IFPA endorsed events across the world. I believe there will be 4 or 5 'Full Value, 32 point base tournaments' at TPF for players to participate in (compared to it always having ONE 25 point annual to work off of). It's going to be INSANE, but well deserved based on the amount of effort being put in by TPF staff to run all the tournaments that will be held.

    There's no additional WPPR bonus point advantage any other of the 2400+ IFPA endorsed tournaments have over the TPF, besides those 4 listed, and that's what we like best about the new system . . . it's all about how many players show up and what the format of the tournament ends up being.

    #126 9 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    I believe that under WPPR v5.0 the locals grinding away will have a much bigger impact. Under the old system every weekly/monthly tournament was limited to 25 WPPR points for that State in a given year. Now it's UNLIMITED.

    I'm very interested to see how this plays out for next year! It certainly sounds like just the solution I was looking for.

    Also, the different player types you mentioned is an important point as well. Good luck satisfying everyone!

    Keep up the good, but very tough work!

    #127 9 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Only a select few are being drama fueled self important donkeys.

    I can think of at least one.

    #128 9 years ago

    I would like to declare for WI next year!

    But seriously, give it a break! Last year it was all about Jason (current Champ!) coming to WI.
    Now, with a local-only crowd, you try to force this newest agenda on the whole system?
    Josh has stated several great reasons why it is fine the way it is. Not to mention the extra BS that would go along with having to declare, before the results are all even in!
    If someone qualifies in several states, they have earned the right.
    And, it's still nearly a month away, you have notice.

    #129 9 years ago

    As the WI state rep, I accept your declaration of war!
    Just kidding of course.

    The SCS system is fine as it is. If you played in a state and qualify for that state's SCS you most certainly have the right to do so. I run a few tournaments throughout the year and certainly support anyone from out of state to come to them.

    #130 9 years ago

    I like how it is always an 'agenda' when there is a new idea but not when a select few are stacking the deck...

    I have heard lots of reasons why it would be a hassle and lots of reasons why the top players deserve or earn the right, but not much in the way of actual discussion of new ways to improve and grow the SCS or cater to the base.

    It is not much of a discussion if the only point some of you can make is that this is good enough and that there is no room for improvement. If that were the case then we would not have the new points rules for 2015.

    I also support anyone playing wherever they qualify. I do not think it is the best thing for the continueed growth of the SCS, but those are the current rules and they have allowance for many people to follow their motives of the potential easiest path to Nationals and prize money.

    I do think that largely the new points rules for 2015 will be a pretty big change already and be abig improvement after they all shake out. That said, I still think it would be way more fun to have a better idea of actual standing in SCS late in the year when you can still have an impact on your final position.

    #131 9 years ago
    Quoted from T7:

    I have a suggestion for improving the SCS series for 2015.
    Please add a page to the IFPA website for "Upcoming Tournaments by State", with the following columns:
    - Date
    - Location
    - Time
    - "WPPR Points Category" // Identifies how many WPPR points will/may be available
    - Contact info - website, phone, email
    I had a very difficult time trying to keep informed of upcoming tournaments in IL that I should attend to make SCS, and a page like this would be great. I think it would boost event attendance in many cases. I think you guys have done a great job on the IFPA website, so I'm not complaining but think this would be a great addition.

    Calendar subscribing and notifications are coming soon.

    #132 9 years ago

    I'll cast a vote for the SCS being great as it is.

    I'm mostly curious to see how WPPR 5.0 is going to affect qualifying throughout the year with respect to many small events vs. a handful of larger events. Time will tell.

    As for declaring a state in advance or keeping the confirmations blind, I think it's all unnecessary. The current system makes sense and does the job. No need to complicate it.

    #133 9 years ago

    I have to say I am playing more pinball because of the SCS. It really makes going to events more meaningful in regards to "if I do well in this tournament, I might be able to make it into the SCS".
    It really makes playing pinball that much more exciting.

    #134 9 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    a select few are stacking the deck...

    I hear you say this a lot.... who are these people and how do they do it? This is a legit question, I honestly have zero idea what you are talking about when you say this. You know I don't really follow IFPA stuff at all, but I have zero idea how someone could turn this into their favor.

    #135 9 years ago

    *Due to the nearness of the event on the calendar, PAPA has already worked out details and accepted an event in Oklahoma City on April 24 – 26, 2015.

    Is this being held where I think it's going to be held?

    mbisonyesss.gif

    Post edited by DarthXaos: Apparently nested blockquotes don't work

    #136 9 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    That's an interesting point.
    What if points awarded in majors did not count for eligibility towards state championship(s)? I love Trent, he's obviously an amazing player, should be able to play in any tournament he wants, and this is not a knock at him at all...but it looks like he would have qualified in 12 states. Should he really be able to represent any of those 12 as state champion? Is that good for the state championship series? Does he even want the title "Florida State Champion"?

    I know any of the 12 states could have been used in your example, but mine was chosen.

    With all due respect to Trent and anyone else that qualified in Florida, if someone wants the title, come try to earn it.

    Playing here does not guarantee walking away with the title.

    We have some decent players here, and some of us don't travel much. For what it's worth, IFPA shows I have a 3-4-2 player vs player record against Trent at tourneys, and in the 5 tourneys in my state, I finished ahead of him 3 out of 5 times.

    Again, I think Trent and all of the other out of state qualifiers in our state are awesome.

    But, the only sure bet of playing in Florida in February is the warmer weather

    #137 9 years ago
    Quoted from pinballcorpse:

    I know any of the 12 states could have been used in your example, but mine was chosen.

    This wasn't a slight towards Florida, I don't know anything about the players there. I just picked it because it's not his home state, and not adjacent.

    #138 9 years ago
    Quoted from ralphwiggum:

    I hear you say this a lot.... who are these people and how do they do it? This is a legit question, I honestly have zero idea what you are talking about when you say this. You know I don't really follow IFPA stuff at all, but I have zero idea how someone could turn this into their favor.

    Currently the SCS is set up in a way that allows the best players to choose what state they want to go through on their road to the nationals (assuming they are qualified in many states) and they don't need to declare this intent until the last possible minute on Jan 13th 2015 for all the events that were played during the 2014 season. Since the IFPA shows all current declarations up to this point a player that is potentially qualified in multiple states can choose today what they percieve to be the easiest route to nationals, after evaluation whom else is playing in each state, using insider info to figure out games, etc...

    As Josh pointed out, for some players their main motive is making nationals (1st place in SCS for each state) and then winning the big prize (4k?) money at nationals. The current rules are set up in the favor of someone that this is their primary motive and by witholding declarations until this time they have kept the growing competitive base which may be on the bubble in a particular state, waiting in limbo. This player is stacking the deck (within the rules) in their favor (or percieved favor). I am not blaming these people for doing it (but will heckle them) but this is where I see room for improvement in the current SCS. I would say only a select few people have this prize money at nationals reason as their main motive for playing in a particular SCS, but this choice can directly impact the SCS and motives of many of the other players (those that are motivate to just try and qualify or just win the state event).

    Keep in mind that the SCS is something created to help promote competitive play on the state/regional level and in my opinion there is more to be gained by tweaking the SCS to cater to better competition among regular competitiors in the state and whom I would call the base of the SCS. At the same time all SCS top 16 are putting in cash that funnels up to the national event and seeds the prize pool, so there is obviously incentive to pick and choose with as much info as possible so top players have the baest chance of leveraging the SCS into helping offset national travel costs and winning the cash prize. Simply making declarations blind untill all states are done with filling the field would be a big improvement to keep those that are stacking the deck from picking and choosing based on whom else is competing in a specific state.

    Making a further change for earlier declaration requirement could possibly improve the overall impact of the SCS and IMHO would make SCS way more fun as you hunt points later in the year and current SCS position has more accuracy of where you will end up!

    #139 9 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Currently the SCS is set up in a way that allows the best players to choose what state they want to go through on their road to the nationals (assuming they are qualified in many states) and they don't need to declare this intent until the last possible minute on Jan 13th 2015 for all the events that were played during the 2014 season. Since the IFPA shows all current declarations up to this point a player that is potentially qualified in multiple states can choose today what they percieve to be the easiest route to nationals, after evaluation whom else is playing in each state, using insider info to figure out games, etc...
    As Josh pointed out, for some players their main motive is making nationals (1st place in SCS for each state) and then winning the big prize (4k?) money at nationals. The current rules are set up in the favor of someone that this is their primary motive and by witholding declarations until this time they have kept the growing competitive base which may be on the bubble in a particular state, waiting in limbo. This player is stacking the deck (within the rules) in their favor (or percieved favor). I am not blaming these people for doing it (but will heckle them) but this is where I see room for improvement in the current SCS. I would say only a select few people have this prize money at nationals reason as their main motive for playing in a particular SCS, but this choice can directly impact the SCS and motives of many of the other players (those that are motivate to just try and qualify or just win the state event).
    Keep in mind that the SCS is something created to help promote competitive play on the state/regional level and in my opinion there is more to be gained by tweaking the SCS to cater to better competition among regular competitiors in the state and whom I would call the base of the SCS. At the same time all SCS top 16 are putting in cash that funnels up to the national event and seeds the prize pool, so there is obviously incentive to pick and choose with as much info as possible so top players have the baest chance of leveraging the SCS into helping offset national travel costs and winning ths cash prize.

    Thanks that helps a little bit, but I don't know how it is actually stacking the deck. Everything I have seen in any tournament rewards players for actually playing well. This appears to be the exact same scenario for choosing a state tournament as well. These players don't get to choose where they go if they don't play better than the other people in the state that are participating.

    As I mentioned on our Wisconsin site, I have felt that to this point the only way to really move up in IFPA is to participate in far more events. It looks like the IFPA is looking to weight the 2015 to reward more local participation, and that is a huge step. If you look at most states, (Wisconsin included), you only have to do sort of well in one or two big events and you are in. The real fix to "cherry picking" is to level out some of the weight of the more regular events against the couple of larger state events throughout the year.

    It looks as though this is starting to happen? We shall see in December for sure....

    #140 9 years ago

    To be fair, I did forget that all the separates at TPF can be 25+ points now. Whoops.

    I'm sure that Marcus is doing everything he can to max the value of that... it just was a total brainfart on my part there. My apologies for that. Maybe I should look into volunteering to help this year, by the sound of it.

    Any idea when the retroactive part of WPPR 5.0 will go live? I.E. the extra two entries, 4th year decay etc...

    #141 9 years ago
    Quoted from sleethering:

    I'll cast a vote for the SCS being great as it is.
    I'm mostly curious to see how WPPR 5.0 is going to affect qualifying throughout the year with respect to many small events vs. a handful of larger events. Time will tell.
    As for declaring a state in advance or keeping the confirmations blind, I think it's all unnecessary. The current system makes sense and does the job. No need to complicate it.

    I can't cast that vote until 2015 entries start popping up. For a few days I'll be #5 in AZ, the highest I will be all year, so I need to see that with my eyes before I'm happy with 5.0.

    This new system will likely remove many of the traveling players who this year are qualified after winning just one event. If there are only 3 events in a year in a state, people need to get together and figure out how to make more events happen. They don't have to be huge, but they do have to happen. Make a plan and make it happen. An 8 player, single elimination, best 2 of 3 event will be worth more this year than the monthlies I did last year with 20-30 players. But, those same monthlies are going to more than double in value at the minimum. The only things at risk are the 'annual' events that used to get little participation.

    Find a bar with a few pins, have the op make them reasonable to play on, and do events. Gotta start somewhere.

    #142 9 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I like how it is always an 'agenda' when there is a new idea but not when a select few are stacking the deck...
    I have heard lots of reasons why it would be a hassle and lots of reasons why the top players deserve or earn the right, but not much in the way of actual discussion of new ways to improve and grow the SCS or cater to the base.

    Here is the problem - you weren't proposing improvements for next year... based on observations or inputs. You were bashing people for their choices they are entitlement to under the current system and arguing why those people are awful. Others were presenting counter points why these people may not be as awful as you paint them and showing justifications on why the current system is as it is.

    When you go down into hyperbole and personal insults you just erode the credibility of your points and people are less likely to listen to the feedback.

    And as to the specific friction you are citing in the current SCS setup with delayed declarations... it's really minor. So either you are blowing something up unnecessarily, or you have something else really agitating you and this is simply another way of venting about it (like... out of state players dominating your local tournament).

    What you see as people shutting down your attempts at improvement is actually you failing to convey your concepts objectively and with support.

    #143 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Any idea when the retroactive part of WPPR 5.0 will go live? I.E. the extra two entries, 4th year decay etc...

    No timetable yet on when we'll be live . . . but we're working hard to bring it out asap!

    #144 9 years ago

    fylnn > I appologized for bashing for those choosing to use the rules to the best of their ability and attempted to redirect back to positive and structured reasons for improvements.

    sorry if I kicked it off on the wrong foot. my smack talking was really in jest at a few select people that I know and have been shit talking via real life also, but I can see how it would easily be taken as a general bash on all people. My apologies if you are in the offended group.

    I agree that delayed declaration is minor in the grand scheme but it is a nice stopoff to examine potential improvements for future years.

    #145 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    To be fair, I did forget that all the separates at TPF can be 25+ points now. Whoops.
    I'm sure that Marcus is doing everything he can to max the value of that... it just was a total brainfart on my part there. My apologies for that. Maybe I should look into volunteering to help this year, by the sound of it.
    Any idea when the retroactive part of WPPR 5.0 will go live? I.E. the extra two entries, 4th year decay etc...

    I thought it was 5 extra entries to count your top 20. Correct?

    #146 9 years ago
    Quoted from DarthXaos:

    Is this being held where I think it's going to be held?
    mbisonyesss.gif

    Uhhh... what? The Circuit tournaments can be anywhere. Circuit Final 2016 is unscheduled at this time but likely to be held the day before PAPA 19.

    #147 9 years ago
    Quoted from LOTR_breath:

    I thought it was 5 extra entries to count your top 20. Correct?

    Yep!

    #148 9 years ago

    Wow...um...don't even know what to say about that. The spread between what I would get out of 2 additional entries (12.07 points..) and someone like Josh Sharpe (34.85) Jorian (73.48) was already pretty massive..

    Now it will be my (26.15) gain to Josh's (84.22) to Jorian's (168.24) LOL...that's like nearly a logarithmic curve just in the top 100-ish range. I got questions...I'll ask in PM man... this... /head explode.

    *Edit* For the record:

    Me: 107th or 108th depending on what page you look at on the IFPA site..
    Josh Sharpe: 17th
    Jorian: 1st

    #149 9 years ago
    Quoted from bkerins:

    Uhhh... what? The Circuit tournaments can be anywhere. Circuit Final 2016 is unscheduled at this time but likely to be held the day before PAPA 19.

    lol should probably look at posts after I post them, especially when trying to be clever with tags, apparently you can't nest blockquotes - edited to single out the quote I was actually responding to lol

    #150 9 years ago

    Since the SCS is still new, I'm sure directors will continue to find ways to improve their tourney. Here is an improvement I implemented this year in Alabama. We play at a public location(BumperNets) that has around 30 pins. Last year we just let all the pins that were not currently broken to be available for selection. This created some issues; loud birthday party in one area of the store, waiting for public players to vacate machines, etc. This year we are putting 8 games in a special area with limited access by the public. Once our field was set, I solicited votes from the top 16 + 2 alternates for their top three pins they would like to see in the tourney! It has been interesting to see which way the votes have gone. All of the voting is not in yet, but it looks like it will be 6 Sterns, 1 Data East, and 1 EM.

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