If you sell on eBay or take PayPal for any purchase you may be in for a BIG SURPRISE: 180 day return policy. This may come to a surprise to many, since it was a big surprise to me. I don’t typically read the Policy Updates, and I think most people don’t, I mean for example the iTunes agreement is over 50 pages! In this case, someone pointed this out to me and I think it’s worth posting. Big changes are coming to all eBay & PayPal sellers November 18th. Some of the changes are already in effect for certain sellers. Free return shipping and 180 days to make a claim. Quotes and links below:

Starting September 15, an initial group of sellers, (and after a transition period, all remaining sellers) will be responsible for return shipping on items which are faulty or not-as-described. Source:

http://shar.es/1aEO9R

But the biggest change is this: “We’re increasing the time for buyers to file a merchandise dispute (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days.” Source: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full

Here’s a screen shot of what options the seller has when a buyer says it’s not as described: http://i.imgur.com/2eiwq5B.jpg. Note you don’t have any appeal process. Your money is gone, in what way would you like to refund?

If you think about this, it not only opens up the door for people that use an item then for whatever reason decide they don’t want it, it puts in place a 180 day warranty for EVERYTHING. It gives more power to the scammers, which is a big problem already. Related to pinball, you might an item cheaper elsewhere. You might find out the board you bought didn’t fix your problem. You might fix your old board and say the new board didn’t work. A better cheaper repro may come out, or your rare set of something is now being reproduced six months later, and a lot cheaper too. You may run in to hard times and decide to part out that Theatre of Magic, and you’d be better off returning the playfield (didn’t fit), MPU & driver board (didn’t work) and new set of legs, and all at the expense of the seller! And the most common, you just changed your mind and claim “it doesn’t work”.

Those examples are just pinball, but the possibility for misuse here is HUGE because it’s everything. Aside from pinball parts, I’ve sold shoes, PC games, computer stuff, movies, a chainsaw, slide projectors, a car, pinball machines, even deodorant on eBay! Just pick anything and think about how it could or might fail in the future, and now you’re responsible for it for 6 months. What are the chances a pinball machine fails in 6 months. Now guess what? You may very well get to give a full refund AND pay NAVL to bring it back. While that’s an extreme example and I do not know how freight returns would work, it’s very obvious that eBay is no longer wanting the small seller.

One of the reasons given is that certain credit card companies are extending their claim period to 180 days too, but they certainly don’t make it a few mouse clicks and you’ve got your money back. Nor would they force paying return shipping to my knowledge.

To make this worse, you will not get your fees back either! “Your liability will include the full purchase price of the item plus the original shipping cost (and in some cases you may not receive the item back). You will not receive a refund of your PayPal fees.”

Does it get worse? Sure it does. If you’ve insured an item, currently the time to file a claim is 60 to 90 days.

Let’s use a $300 sale on eBay as an example, a brand new item:

$330 total sale. $300 item sold on eBay, shipped insured for $30, you collected $330. Don’t spend it for six months!
-$33 eBay took 10%
-$10 PayPal fees 3%
-$30 Shipping & insurance
-$30 return shipping six months later, and you receive a board back missing paperwork, not properly packed, and damaged or otherwise certainly not new as you sold it. Now you’ve given back a full $330, and have lost $103.

While I agree to the fact I should prove delivery of an item, obviously I disagree about a 180 day period for a buyer to make up his mind if it’s as described or not. It does not matter if you put in your wording no returns or sales final, if they come up with a reason for Not As Described, they will likely win. I have posted on some forums, emailed eBay and PayPal, and I hope many of you will too. I plan on emailing John Donahoe, who is the president and CEO of eBay, and he also has a twitter account. I have also be posted on eBay's and PayPal's Facebook page.

*Speak up sellers, this isn't RIGHT!*

It does not matter if they can find a flaw with what you sold them. eBay will almost always side with the buyer if they claim something was not as it was described. For example if you say "This is in very good condition with no marks or scratches, but sold as is", and they file a claim saying there's a ding, that's it. Best case in selling where is as is stuff is to not say anything about it at all.

That's usually not true.

That is true, for things that are counterfeited.

Scott, you need to check your facts actually, and I am not eBay/PayPal bashing at all, I am posting what is going to happen November 18th. Anyone's return policy will be trumped, in EVERY case, if the buyer says what they bought was "Not as Described". To quote the policy directly: "Important: Even if you specify "no returns accepted," the item could still be returned if it doesn't match the item description. "

And restocking fees and shipping when there's a claim made for "Not as Described", are also trumped, PayPal will seize the entire transaction amount, and refund the buyer in full when it's been returned. If you refuse a return, that would be foolish, because then they will get both the item back and the refund.

Currently the time frame for filing for Not Received or Not As described is 45 days. On November 18th that will increase to 180 days (six months)

The problem is most Buyers will probably not do this a lot, the ones that will are probably going to be caught, but as a SELLER here, I'll be affected just once in awhile, by different Buyers, in different ways. No pattern there really. Obviously if I have a problem with a certain customer time and time again, I won't sell to them. I already block people that ask extremely stupid questions on eBay. In the past year I have had about a dozen returns, only a few of them were on eBay. In all of the cases the items were opened and used in some way, some had no problems, some had problems caused by the customer, many of them missing paperwork and original packing, only one did I receive back unopened/unused.

Similar to that, I sold a $700 video game that got trucked to another city. The buyer told me in email that he basically tried to fix something and shorted/sparked something with a screwdriver, WHILE the game was on. he said he wanted me to pay for repair or send a replacement board, which I did not have. And because he filed a false claim, It ticked me off and I fought it. I originally said I'd try and fix the board if he sent it to me, that was not good enough for him. This claim was held for more than 45 days, and to my surprise the said he could return it for a refund. I was shocked, but a number of calls to PayPal got it resolved, and my funds were released, and the buyer was given an actual phone call by the rep (so I was told).

PayPal actually replied to me on part of my concerns, the one about return shipping. They say that is an eBay policy, and not PayPal, which does help a little. On eBay though, here is their wording in case you didn't see it, from the User Agreement posted August 12th, effective September 15th:

Returns. We updated this section to clarify that if eBay hassle-free returns are applied to your listings, you authorize eBay to remove the refund amount from your PayPal account, place the amount on your invoice, and/or charge your payment method on file. By the 2015 holiday season, all eligible domestic returns on eBay will be eBay hassle-free returns and sellers may not remove hassle-free return settings from their listings. We updated this section also to reflect this future change. - See more at: ebay.com link: updates to the ebay user agreement user privacy notice and money back guarantee

and

Money Back Guarantee. We updated this section to reflect changes in the Money Back Guarantee, specifically that sellers are responsible for return shipping costs if an item is not as described and that, if an eBay-generated return shipping label is used for return shipping on items not as described, we place the return shipping label cost on the seller’s invoice. - See more at: ebay.com link: updates to the ebay user agreement user privacy notice and money back guarantee

So while PayPal says it's not their policy, nearly everything sold on eBay is paid by PayPal, so it's everything on eBay for sure.

Actually, I'd love to hear some input from the Pinside group on that. Many probably know I run Big Daddy Enterprises, and PayPal is my only form of taking payment. Switching is not easy, whether it's to a credit card processor, taking pre payments by cash, check or money orders, or what? I've even had the thought of saying screw it, I'll retire and just work on selling games I have, cash only.

Here is a link to a few FaceBook posts, you may have to be a FaceBook member. If you've got an opinion, please share it with PayPal and eBay, or nothing will change.

https://www.facebook.com/eBay/posts/10153233470303136?ref=notif&notif_t=like

https://www.facebook.com/PayPalUSA/posts/10152717960214573

I hope the links work.

Here's part of the problem. Someone I know that rarely sells on eBay sold an item for $250, the buyer claimed that it was not working, filed a claim, and returned it for a full refund. Problem is, they returned a different item. The seller got ripped off, and even after talking to him he says he'll just quit selling on eBay, it wasn't worth his time to call and try to fight it. So where's the problem? In eBay's eyes, they got rid of a bad seller. They've no clue that a buyer pulled a scam job, and thus they make policies like the one I'm talking about HELP the scammers scam more! And making it harder on us legit guys that do this as a business.

Agreed. My concern is the higher dollar items actually, and the six months the buyer has to claim it's "Not as Described". One of my items is $415, and I have a dozen more that are $$200 on up. And I sell quite a lot of them. With eBay's new policy I have no recourse for false claims filed.

Great, now two companies are going to F things up!

I think those days are over, but I think you still have to accept SOME form of "credit" if you don't. That being a few methods no one uses much like Skrill and ProPay, but also "Credit card or debit card processed through the seller's Internet merchant account".

If you sell items with a Buy It Now though, such as I do, "Listings with the immediate payment feature must offer PayPal as the only payment method."

It is a common misconception that doing this covers you, it does not. And for good reason. No matter what you sell and how you describe it, if it's not as described, eBay will force you to take it back. And effective soon, you will have to pay return shipping.

email me direct, if it's not a bunch of small little chit, I don't mind much.

I don't. More and more people are moving away from eBay, not joining up. While their changes are going to short term be profitable to them, because in cases like this (in eBay's eyes, John is at fault so they will keep all fees), but John ain't gonna bend over too often. And it's probably easy to count how many people "joined" eBay, but if you read the discussion boards, a lot of those are throwaway accounts for one time buys where they actually don't pay, or they scam the seller. And when a seller "leaves" eBay, most don't really close their account, they just stop selling. I for one will cut down a lot of my selling, if not all of it November 1st, and I sell thousands of parts a year on eBay.

Why November 1st? Well, you can opt out, but you do so at a cost. It's called eBay's new extended holiday return policy: "You give buyers until January 31 to return any item purchased between November 1 and December 31." If you opt out, you lose your "Top Rated Seller" status (if you have one, I do) which means the loss of 20% discount on fees. And this is for anything, all they have to do is say it was a gift, as if they even have to ask.

And remember, the customer is always right John!

Right, because now they have six months to play your game. What game doesn't have a problem in six months? Condition judgement calls aside, what if you sell ANY game as working, or ANY part, boards, etc as working, and it fails? You now have to arrange a truck to go get it?